I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, and his officials. I suggest that we work until 5 p.m. because the legislation will obviously require more than one session. We can resume on Thursday.
Business of Select Committee.
I have urgent matters on the Order of Business at 4.20 p.m. to which I must attend.
I wish to raise another matter relating to the correspondence we have received. It is now open to this committee to receive delegations. We have received a letter from a delegation with which I am familiar. There might be correspondence from other delegations. I am anxious that those people are heard by the committee. I am not sure how worth while it would be to hear them after we have dealt with amendments and our other business.
There is no provision in Standing Orders to allow delegations to make contributions on legislation. There is nothing wrong with meeting them, but not at a formal sitting of the committee.
I do not wish to contradict you, but I was led to believe by the officials at the last meeting that under new orders governing committees it was open to committees to receive delegations in relation to whatever legislation was being proposed.
I have not been made aware of that. I will check it out and inform the Deputy as quickly as possible.
I have received a great deal of correspondence from people wishing to give their views on proposed legislation. They understood that this was now permissible under the committee rules. Could we have precise information on whether it is allowed?
We will have ample time.
The correspondence I received — I am sure it is the same as that received by other Deputies — relates to amendments to the legislation. They appear to have been instructed — I do not know by whom — that they can come to the committee and make submissions or representations on the matter before it has been dealt with.
I am sure we will have the Chairman's advice in due course. This Bill has been lying dormant for longer than a year. We attempted to deal with it last week. The Opposition spokes-person now suggests that we facilitate her by terminating our consideration of it at 4.20 p.m. I said last week that this is relatively straightforward Bill. I would like to make a start on it during my term of office.
I am not aware of any provision in Standing Orders which would allow for delegations to be heard on Committee Stage of a Bill. I will have the matter clarified as soon as possible and we can proceed from there. Otherwise, we will have to adjourn the meeting to facilitate a delegation that might wish to make a contribution on Committee Stage.
Perhaps the committee staff could let us know.
I am satisfied that under Standing Orders there would be nothing wrong with the committee receiving members of the public and talking to them as individuals. However, I know of no provision that would allow for submissions to be made on Committee Stage of a Bill.
It was allowed for the Finance Bill.
Does the Chairman have correspondence from any group wishing to make representations?
Yes, I received the same correspondence as other Members. I advised the correspondents in writing that it would not be permissible or acceptable for me as Chairman to meet with delegations as I must maintain a neutral position. I gave them the names of the Members of the Select Committee so they could make contact with the convenors and arrange to meet Members collectively or in party delegations. I am not aware of any provision allowing a submission to be made during discussion of Committee Stage of the Bill, but there is ample provision for them to meet with Members prior to the meeting.
Having postponed the discussion for a second week, we should proceed; but we are somewhat constrained if Deputy O'Rourke has to be in the Dáil at 4.20 p.m.
That is a long time away.
We have received various requests for a meeting. If we continued with the business of the committee, there would probably be ample opportunity to get an opinion on whether it is appropriate for this committee to meet delegations. If such meetings are possible they could then take place, but it would probably be inappropriate to adjourn proceedings again because it is at very short notice. I suggest we go ahead but rather than finishing at 5 p.m., finish at 4.20 p.m. Shortly afterwards we would have clarification on whether it is appropriate for us to meet representative groups.
Are our terms of reference different from those of the Select Committee on Finance and General Affairs? Submissions were received on Committee Stage of the Finance Bill from various parties. I do not think that committee has different terms of reference.
Did they come into the meeting?
Yes, the solicitors came in and——
I have the terms of reference. As you said yourself, Chairman, there is no precedent during the lifetime of any previous Government for hearing submissions on Committee Stage of a Bill. As Deputy O'Keeffe said, submissions were made on the Finance Bill, but paragraph seven of the terms of reference of this committee states:
That the Select Committee may invite submissions in writing if considered necessary by the committee from interested persons or bodies on any matter comprehended by the committee.
I have the terms of reference here. There is an addendum in paragraph 18 which states that the Select Committee shall have the power to receive submissions and hear evidence from interested persons and organisations. I do not see any problem with the committee meeting with delegations from the public prior to the commencement of committee business. It would not be appropriate, in the middle of the committee session, to have Members making a contribution on amendments and members of the public making a case. I am sure that is not what the Deputy is suggesting.
Can I clarify the point? I raised this today because the outgoing Clerk informed us prior to the last meeting, when we were speaking informally as a group, that there is an amended version of the standing orders and an addendum which allows groups to come in. I was not suggesting that groups come in and behave like Members. We received a written request from one group and I know that other groups are interested and I was asking what provisions we can make for them in the interests of democracy.
This may be a simple Bill to the Minister, but the people represented by this group will be drastically affected by quite many of the changes, particularly the increases in fines and so on. We will be discussing those at a later stage. It is essential that we listen to a statement from them and let them have their say. However, there is no suggestion from me that they come in and argue the toss on different amendments. I am only expressing my view and that is that they must be given the opportunity to come in before any decisions are made and make their views known.
I am all in favour of democracy and I have been here for that purpose for over 13 years. I share the Deputy's views on that. I am simply trying to get the procedure correct so we will not make any mistakes we might regret. The Select Committee on Finance and General Affairs did receive a delegation but it was outside the hours appointed for the purpose of dealing with the Bill.
It was prior to consideration of the relevant Committee Stage amendments and that is the relevant point. Deputy O'Keeffe and I met a group this morning who also asked — they will put it in writing — to come and give their point of view. They want to put their view before we pass particular sections otherwise it would be a pointless exercise. The delegations to the Select Committee on Finance and General Affairs came prior to the discussion on the relevant section of the Bill.
I have no problem with the committee meeting with any delegation they wish to meet outside of the sitting times of the committee while it is discussing Committee Stage of a Bill. Any submissions made to me will be circulated for the information of Members and I will reply to them accordingly. I did not think it was right and proper for me to meet with delegations in relation to any aspect of the Bill because, as Chairman of the committee, I thought I should maintain a neutral position. I am sure the committee would agree with that.
I would.
This even applied to submissions from the chamber of commerce in my own town of Drogheda. I do not kow what the committee wants to do now. I propose to proceed with the discussion on Committee Stage of the Bill as notified. If the committee wishes to arrange to meet with delegations after the meeting is finished that is a matter for the Members of the committee.
Casual Trading Bill, 1994: Committee Stage (Resumed).