SELECT COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENT AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT debate -
Wednesday, 31 May 2000

Vol. 3 No. 13

Estimates for Public Services, 2000.

Vote 25 - Environment and Local Government (Revised).

Chairman

I welcome the Minister, Deputy Dempsey, and Ministers of State, Deputies Molloy and Wallace, and their officials from the Department of the Environment and Local Government. They will assist us in our consideration of the Revised Estimate for the year 2000 under Vote 25 which relates to that Department. The proposed timetable for our consideration of the Estimates as submitted to the conveners has been circulated. This is intended to ensure we give due consideration to all subheads involved and make the best use of our time. I ask for co-operation in not exceeding the times allocated in the proposed timetable to the various subheads. Is it agreed to proceed on that basis? Agreed.

I invite the Minister to make his opening statement.

Minister for the Environment and Local Government (Mr. Dempsey)

I am pleased to have the opportunity to discuss the Department's Estimate for 2000 with the committee. I look forward to a constructive debate and an exchange of information. Members have a short briefing note which has been circulated. It gives details of the overall Estimate and the individual subheads. Ministers of State, Deputies Molloy and Wallace, and I will be happy to assist the committee. Should questions arise that we cannot handle I assure you, Chairperson, and members of the committee, we will get the information to the committee afterwards.

I wish to give a general overview of the Estimate on my own behalf and on behalf of my colleagues, Ministers of State, Deputies Molloy and Wallace. I shall commence with the area of housing. There is strong evidence that the range of measures being taken by the Government to remove overheating in the housing market and accelerate housing supply is working. Nevertheless, the absolute level of house prices represents a serious problem for low to middle income first time buyers.

Provisional house price statistics for the March quarter 2000 reveal some encouraging trends. The Department's unpublished monthly prices and the provisional March quarter 2000 prices both indicate a modest reduction in Dublin new and second hand house prices. There is also the point that average house prices are derived from all loan approvals. These include some very expensive houses. The average price paid by first time purchasers is, of course, significantly lower than that. The average price last year was in the region of £100,000 nationally and about £130,000 in the Dublin area. A high rate of housing output in the years ahead is obviously the key factor in ensuring price stabilisation and the orderly development of the housing market in the medium to long-term. For that reason I welcome the continued increase in housing output last year which was up 9.8% on 1998.

While a range of initiatives have already been put in place to boost supply I have commissioned a further review of developments in the housing market. That review will be completed shortly and will be considered by the Government together with the comprehensive policy response as soon as possible thereafter. I am confident that the combination of all these measures will help to stabilise the housing market over the next few years.

Our approach to meeting social housing needs involves increasing the traditional local authority housing programme, expanding voluntary housing output and increasing output under other complementary schemes, such as the shared ownership scheme and the affordable housing scheme. I expect the local authority housing programme together with the output from the complementary schemes and the vacancies occurring in the existing housing stock will enable the housing needs of more than 10,800 households to be catered for this year. That will obviously make a significant impact on meeting needs. The social housing output will be increased over the next four years to ensure the requirements of over 60,000 households will be met in that period.

I am conscious of the increased level of social housing need and considerable priority is being afforded to tackling this. The total capital provision for the local authority housing programme in 2000 is £312 million, an increase of £82 million or 36% on the 1999 provision. This year I want to see over 5,500 new starts delivered. The capital provision in this Estimate for the local authority housing programme is a clear indication of the Government's commitment to the local authority housing programme as the mainstay of our overall response to social housing needs.

The Government has for the first time this year introduced a a multi-annual local authority housing programme. That programme provides for a total of 22,000 houses to be constructed or acquired over the four years to 2003. This year I expect that the level of house completions, including acquisitions, will be in the region of 4,000 units.

I wish to turn briefly to roads. Major investment in infrastructure including national roads has been identified by the Government as a priority for the national development plan. The extent of this commitment is reflected in the overall allocation of £17.6 billion over the seven years of the plan for public infrastructure such as roads, public transport, water services, environmental protection, energy, housing and health capital. This year will see the start of a significant increase in funding for roads. The Estimate for 2000 is over £700 million, a 7% increase over the 1999 expenditure of £660 million.

During the course of the national development plan, £4.4 billion will be directed towards national road infrastructure improvements. This year's Estimate includes the provision of almost £440 million for national roads and that represents an increase of over £100 million on the initial allocation last year. A sum of £410 million has been allocated to the National Roads Authority for the construction and improvement of this network. These funds will enable the authority to finance projects such as the Nenagh by-pass which is due to be opened this year, as well as continuing work on major infrastructural projects like the Dunleer-Dundalk and the M50 southern cross route motorways and the Kildare and Drogheda by-passes.

To complement the improvement of the network, over £27 million has been provided to the authority to carry out maintenance works. Significantly, £44 million has been directed by the National Roads Authority towards the forward planning and design of major roads. I welcome this initiative which I view as being critical to the successful delivery of the national development plan and its projected output for national roads.

In the area of non-national roads, the total non-national grant allocations in 2000 will amount to almost £269 million, an increase of over £26 million, or almost 11% on the 1999 payment figure. This allocation, which is a record all-time high, is an increase of 55% on the original 1997 allocation of almost £173 million. The grant provision of almost £269 million for 2000 includes over £147 million for the restoration programme, or £9 million more than was provided in 1999 under this heading. Since the launch of that programme in mid-1995, more than 21,200 road schemes have been completed, with over 34,416 kilometres of road improved or maintained. That is equivalent to 38% of the entire network of regional and county roads. The increased level of funding available this year will enable county councils to complete a further 5,400 restoration, maintenance and improvement schemes, with the result that close to 50% of the network will be restored by the end of 2000. This is real progress in this programme.

Spending on these roads will be maintained at a high level in the coming years, in line with the Government commitment to fund and complete the restoration programme within the original ten year timeframe. This programme will see the entire network of regional and local roads restored to an acceptable condition. Over the period of the national development plan, some £1.6 billion will be invested in non-national roads.

The 2000 Estimate for traffic management grants in the DTI area of over £25 million represents a 9% increase on the 1999 expenditure level. The DTO has responsibility for allocating these traffic management grants to local authorities in the DTI area. The increased allocation this year will allow for continued progress on a number of key recommendations in the DTI strategy, such as the quality bus corridors and the provision of cycle lanes, on which considerable progress was made last year. The increased expenditure on traffic management grants should help the various agencies to assist progress in mitigating the effects of traffic growth in the past few years. The DTO is currently updating the DTI strategy, with a view to completing this exercise by June. This is obviously a very important step in the ongoing transportation planning process for a changing city, covering the period to 2016. Members will be aware that for the first time ever, we have made traffic management grants available for cities outside Dublin, details of which will be announced shortly.

Regarding the environment, the investment programme in water and waste water infrastructure is, in fiscal terms, foremost among my environmental concerns. Before I turn to this programme, I wish to refer briefly to a small but important expenditure provision in my Department's Estimates which have a pivotal role in the shaping of attitudes towards our environment, that is, the environmental awareness campaign. An emphasis on personal responsibility is a key element of this campaign which was launched last December under the slogan "The Environment - it's easy to make a difference". My colleague, the Minister for Finance, brought forward in the budget a special provision of £1 million to promote environmental awareness. That substantial increase in the funding for awareness measures will enable the campaign to target a broad range of sectors, including the general public, industry, agriculture and the retail trade.

In essence, the approach adopted reflects the reality that we all have a responsibility in our personal and professional capacities to respond to the environmental challenge presented by our economic success. We can no longer sit back and leave responsibility for the protection of the environment to others. If, individually and collectively, we are not part of the solution, we are part of the problem. The campaign takes the approach that there are simple steps that we can take to reduce our environmental impact at home as well as in the workplace. These include such practices as recycling glass and plastic bottles, switching off unnecessary lights, purchasing environmentally friendly goods etc. All our actions matter and every little helps, which is the message we want to get across.

The main objectives of the water and waste water investment programme are to provide an adequate supply of water of suitable quality for commercial, domestic, industrial and other uses and to provide systems for the safe and adequate disposal of sewerage and other water-borne waste. Some £3 billion has been provided under the national development plan for water and waste water services between 2000 and 2006 - that is up 200% on the previous plan figure. Overall, the provision of almost £290 million this year will allow us to progress the last plan, which saw expenditure on water services increase from £110 million in 1994 to over £280 million last year.

Recent investment in water services infrastructure, allied to our willingness to fast track key projects, has reinforced our ability to attract industry and investment in job creation in Ireland. Intel in Leixlip is a case in point - Kildare County Council committed itself to meet a projected demand of 3 million gallons per day to enable this project to go ahead, an undertaking which was met. Since then, Intel has increased its operations on several occasions, with consequent increased demands for water supply, all of which have been fulfilled.

Projects under construction include major sewerage schemes for Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Dundalk and Galway. Construction is also continuing on a major water scheme in Sligo and surrounding areas. Within the period of the current national development plan, all the major urban centres around the country will be provided with sewage treatment facilities which comply with EU directives on urban waste water treatment. This will emphasise our suitability as a location for economic investment.

I spoke about the need to expand housing output. The availability of serviced land is obviously a critical factor in this. Under the serviced land initiative, £39 million is being allocated to assist in the provision of serviced land for new housing development. That measure will mobilise total spending to the value of almost £100 million, specifically targeted at easing pressures in the housing market. The approved projects will service more than 15,000 acres of land, providing sites for over 100,000 housing units in areas of greatest demand. Over £13 million is set aside for this purpose in the current year.

The rural towns and villages initiative was introduced in 1999 to provide water services infrastructure in rural towns and villages and to support development to combat rural depopulation. This year is the first full year of its operation and I expect to see significant progress in advancing the 66 schemes approved so far. My Department is also funding a range of measures under the rural water programme, including those directed at small public water and sewerage schemes, group schemes and the improvement of individual supplies.

I have addressed the principal spending programmes for which funding is provided in the Estimate before the committee. Obviously, time constraints do not permit me to refer to a range of other important functions and services for which my Department is responsible. I am conscious that I have not spoken about the local government fund but it is worth nothing that the method of financing local authorities is inextricably bound up with my Department's spending, over 90% of which flows to local authorities in grants and subsidies. The Ministers of State and I will be happy to deal with the local government fund and other matters which members may wish to raise.

I commend the Estimate to the committee. It will enable my Department and local authorities to expand and improve the important services for which we are responsible. It recognises in a particular way the importance of infrastructure in ensuring that our present economic success will continue into the future. It will assist us in our efforts to preserve our environment for our own benefit and that of our children.

Chairman

I invite the Fine Gael Party spokesman to make an opening statement. I appeal to members to observe the time constraints, as we are very tight for time.

Mr. Dukes

I wish to share my time with Deputies Hayes and Clune.

Chairman

That is agreed.

Mr. Dukes

This is not a very satisfactory forum for dealing with the Estimates but that is not a criticism of you, Chairman, or the Minister. I think we got a bit carried away with some of the reforms we enacted a few years ago and we made some things more difficult than they used to be. However, having had my standard bitch about non-traditional ways of doing things, I will get on with the business at hand.

A number of items in this Estimate are of substantial importance. We are embarking on the first year of the last major national plan in which European Union funds will figure to such a large extent. It would be useful if we could have a look at the kinds of deflators that need to be applied to the expenditures set out here.

It is very impressive to look at large amounts of money. For example, the Minister is allocating £482.284 million this year for the national roads programme. That is an increase of 5.7% on last year's figure. However, what is happening to unit costs in that programme? What is happening to completion times on programmes that are currently under way? What is happening with regard to the availability of contractors? At the beginning of a major phase of road investment, we have an increase of 5.7% in expenditure in the first year but, given that the Minister for Finance has finally been obliged to admit that inflation will be running at 4% this year, it is easy to be a bit underwhelmed by that figure. I wonder how much extra we are going to get for that 5.7%. I know the deflator in the construction sector is not necessarily the same as that in the overall economy and that the inflator in the road sector is not necessarily the same as that in housing construction. However, it would be useful to have some indication of that here.

In looking at programmes like this, I am also worried about the labour market situation we are facing. I heard a discussion on the radio this morning about the tightness in the labour market and the fact that prices will be bid up. Is that a problem in road construction and, if so, what can we do about it? At some point, we will begin to run into capacity problems in the economy in terms of the number of firms in Ireland that can handle this work. Is there any evidence to suggest, since we have to do it anyway, that contractors from other EU member states can make a major contribution to the programme? I remem-ber, as the Minister will also, some years ago when the Naas and Newbridge bypasses were being built there was a good deal of indigestion in the construction sector here because a Northern contractor got a large amount of the work. Many of us will be hoping that contractors from other EU member states will play a large part in this programme. Otherwise, it will not be on target, notwithstanding problems with Pollardstown Fen and various types of snail.

I note in subhead C.2 on Dublin transportation there is a substantial increase, all things considered, of 8.8%. That is very limited, however. Will the Minister indicate whether the Government has any plans to go any further than the rather limited co-ordination and co-operation mechanisms that are in place for dealing with Dublin traffic? Does the Government intend to put in place a real Dublin transportation authority that would not have to wait for the co-operation of the Garda Síochána, Dublin Corporation and Bus Átha Cliath but could, itself, take direct responsibility for the provision of those services? Such a body was almost put in place in 1987 but it was dismantled very shortly afterwards. I have a feeling that a good deal of opinion, perhaps even within the Government, is coming around to the view that that might be the way to go. It would be an awful pity to have lost 13 years, but better late than never.

With regard to subhead E, the Minister has made it a little more difficult to track what he is doing by changing the names and calling it the local government fund. However, I do not wish to carp about that. I know a lot of good work is being done under that fund, particularly on the non-national roads programme instituted by the previous Government. However, in areas of importance to the environment, such as litter and waste, the principal responsibility for ensuring the law is applied rests with the local authorities, yet we find, time after time, they do not have the resources to do that. Environment awareness campaigns, spring clean weeks and so on are fine as far as they go. However, to ensure the law is properly applied we need enforcement 12 months of the year. We are not getting that kind of enforcement of the litter and waste Acts. I do not see anything in this Estimate that gives me any reason to believe this year will be any different.

Mr. Hayes

Following on the theme of being underwhelmed, I agree with Deputy Dukes that this is a very disappointing Estimate, particularly in relation to housing, given the scale of the crisis we face in terms of our ability to provide affordable and low cost housing for average income earners. If the Estimate is supposed to be a verdict on the Minister and the Minister of State's negotiating skills with the Department of Finance, the judgment of this committee is that they have failed in their duty to negotiate substantial increases. I say that for the following reason.

This country is spending about £3.2 billion on capital expenditure this year. About 12.5% of that total amount will be spent on the provision of social housing. In 1995 we were spending the exact same percentage of 12.5% - I have it from the Minister for Finance - of our entire capital budget on the provision of social housing and that was at a time, before the 1996 housing assessment, when there were fewer people on the national housing list. The Minister tells us that £312 million will be spent this year, at a time when there are almost 45,000 families on the national housing list. The Minister is presenting this as success and a radical increase. There has been no increase. Since the Government took office, the amount, as a percentage of what is spent nationally, has reduced every year, until this year when the amount has increased to 12.5%.

Therefore, this year we are spending 12.5% of total nationwide capital expenditure on the provision of social housing. That is a disgrace given the magnitude of the problem. However, we will have to return to that issue. The Minister claims huge credit for his negotiating skills with the Minister for Finance, but the judgment of the committee is that he has failed to create a radical increase in the amount of expenditure required for social housing.

The latest housing bulletin shows that the Minister of State, Deputy Molloy, has failed for the third successive year to deliver on his promises. In 1998 he promised 3,900 new starts for that year; he delivered 3,504. In 1999 he promised 4,500 and delivered - according to the recent assessment - 3,713. He can promise delivery of 5,500 new starts this year by way of construction or acquisition, but we can only go on his record which is one of failure in terms of providing new starts every year for those who cannot afford to buy their own homes. The latest housing bulletin shows that in 1999 only 3,713 new starts were created. Irrespective of the plans presented to this committee, we are not getting it right in terms of delivering extra money to provide more housing and we need to start a whole new process in terms of delivering on our commitments.

This is a disappointing Estimate in terms of housing given that out of virtually half a billion pounds in expenditure in 2000 a substantial chunk of that money will be going towards regenerating and maintaining the existing housing stock. A large chunk of that money will be spent on new housing starts, but not all of it. If the Government were really serious about delivering homes to those on low incomes we would have seen half a billion pounds this year on the provision of local authority housing.

It is a bit rich for the Minister to tell the committee that he is delivering on additional new homes when we find, as a result of a recent parliamentary question I asked, that a smaller number of first time buyer grants was given out by his Department last year. In 1999, 9,129 first time buyer grants were given out by his Department; that is down on the 1998, 1997, 1996 and 1995 figures. Where are all the new houses going? Who is buying these new houses? It is not first time buyers. Behind the verbiage we have had to listen to from this Government, this Estimate shows a complete failure to deal with providing affordable accommodation. We will come back to this in greater detail in the Estimates.

Ms Clune

We see a proposed increase in the environmental programme this year but my figures suggest an increase of 5%. One wonders what impact this will make given increased construction costs. I know that much of the funding for the water and sewerage services is under the urban waste water treatment directive, but there has been strong criticism of the Government's slow progress in implementing that directive. There has been a long lead time for many of the projects and I am aware that we are not really implementing the directive, which has led to strong criticism from Europe on the matter.

The latest EPA report states that 11% of our discharges are not treated at all and 40% get only primary treatment, therefore 51% of our waste water discharges are not being treated adequately. Only 2% is receiving tertiary treatment, which would remove phosphorous and nitrogen, the nutrients that are causing such deterioration in our water quality. I am concerned we are not putting enough emphasis on this measure, particularly given that this is a time when an increasing number of our waterways are becoming slightly to moderately polluted. We should note that and not become complacent about it. We should put further emphasis on tertiary treatment.

The grants in the waste management area are increasing from £4 million to £8 million and I presume we will get further details on this. The amount seems very small at a time when waste is probably the number one topic in constituencies everywhere. In addition, I spoke about environmental awareness last year when discussing the Estimates and not enough is being done in this area to educate people. We should focus on the schools and though the ENFO offices are wonderful, they are buried in Dublin and do not get around the country. There should be similar facilities in libraries or visiting schools around the country. That is very important.

Mr. Gilmore

I welcome the Minister, the Ministers of State and their officials. In money terms this is the biggest Estimate ever introduced by a Minister for the Environment or Local Government to the House or committees. No previous Government has had the resources available to it that this Government has and no Minister for the Environment has ever been in as cash rich a position as this Minister. The unprecedented and largely unpredicted performance of the economy and consequential Revenue windfall has presented the Government with an embarrassment of riches which their predecessors could hardly have imagined.

Money is now no obstacle; a shortage of resources is no longer an excuse for Government inaction. However, despite all the money available to it, the Government has failed to deliver public services efficiently and to provide for the basic needs of our people. In no Department is this as manifest as it is in the Department presided over by Deputies Dempsey, Molloy and Wallace. This Administration is now three years in office and despite all the money available to it, matters are worse now in almost every area of responsibility than when it took office. Despite telling us that more is being spent on housing, we have our worst housing crisis since the 1930s. Despite spending more on roads, our roads are now more congested and arguably more dangerous than they have ever been; almost one-quarter of the drivers on our roads are not qualified to be there. We are told by the EPA that we will overshoot our Kyoto commitments by a factor of two. Waste management is in chaos throughout the country. The country is filthy with litter and the European Union is taking the Government to court due to its failure to protect the Irish environment under a number of headings.

Since this Government came to office, average house prices have risen by over 70%. For the first time in the history of the State, young working couples such as teachers are unable to buy a home of their own while the Government, instead of addressing the problems of home buyers, has produced another windfall for profiteers and land speculators in the building industry by halving the level of capital gains tax for residential land in the last budget. Rents in the private rented sector have doubled. The number of applicants seeking local authority housing has increased from 26,000 to 40,000 and there are over 50,000 applicants on various council waiting lists. The number of homeless people has doubled in the lifetime of the Government. Economists and business organisations are warning that the failure to tackle the housing crisis is putting the country's economic prospects and prosperity at risk.

For three years the Government has talked down the housing crisis. Last week at Question Time the Minister of State, Deputy Molloy, was still insisting that prices are moderating, a theme again repeated today by the Minister for the Environment and Local Government, Deputy Dempsey, who would have us believe that "the range of measures being taken by the Government to remove overheating in the housing market and accelerating housing supply is working". The fact is that the various efforts of the Government to tackle the housing crisis have been inadequate and ineffective. Measures taken on foot of the Bacon reports have simply not worked, something passively acknowledged by the fact that a further review of housing is being undertaken.

When the Government took office in mid-1997 the average price of a new house was £73,000; today the average price is almost £120,000. Last year the Government built 2,909 local authority and 579 voluntary sector houses, a total of 3,488, which is almost 500 less then the 3,971 which were built in 1995 when the number on the housing lists was only half the current number.

The Labour Party has consistently argued for a radical change in Government policy on housing. Just over a year ago we published the report of the commission on housing which we established under the chairmanship of Professor P.J. Drudy of Trinity College. At that time we called on the Government to implement the 39 recommendations in the report. As the housing crisis worsens it must be becoming clear even to Ministers that the measures called for by the Labour Party will have to be implemented. We need a radically increased and accelerated local authority house building programme. The Government's proposal for 22,000 units over four years is not enough in the face of 50,000 applicants on waiting lists and with waiting lists growing faster than the rate at which houses are being provided.

The public housing programme in our view must at least be doubled. Legislation is necessary to provide for security of tenure, certainty of rents and basic rights for tenants in private rented accommodation which are normal in most other European countries. We must dramatically develop the non-profit housing sector to cater for the needs of young workers and students. We must bring house prices under control and regulate the housing market, including the activities of auctioneers and advertisers, and we must bring building land under public ownership to diffuse land speculation and profiteering which is contributing so much to the increase in the price of housing.

I was glad to hear the Minister of State, Deputy Molloy, on "Morning Ireland" on Monday acknowledging for the first time that development land is being hoarded and that new measures are required to tackle the problem of building land. I hope he will take up the proposal made by the Labour Party and supported by the ICTU and IBEC, namely, that local authorities be given the power and resources to assemble development land banks not only for their own housing programmes but for release at reasonable cost to the private house building sector in order to provide homes at a reasonable price for families who need them.

The Government's failure to control house prices inevitably means that more public money will have to be spent to ensure people have the basic right to shelter. Additional money will have to be spent on the provision of public and social housing, in the subsidisation of rent and mortgages and on various other schemes designed to help people meet their housing needs. It makes sense, therefore, to commit capital money to the long-term solution of the housing crisis. The Labour Party believes that a major capital commitment to the public acquisition of building land would have the effect of bringing down the exorbitant cost of such land and of making houses more affordable for young couples.

Housing is not the only area in which the Government has failed. In waste management, for example, ambitious targets were set in the Government's policy document, "Changing our Ways", suggesting a 35% level of municipal waste recycling. Those targets are not being met and those recycling schemes which exist have effectively collapsed. Recycling is not being adequately resourced and we have the chaotic situation of individual local and regional authorities doing their own thing in relation to waste management. Some local authorities are privatising the collection and disposal of waste, some are charging different rates and some are providing a free service. There is no evidence of a central strategy or management of waste despite the fact the EPA has said the level of waste being produced is increasing at a rate of 12.5% per year.

We are told that more money is being made available for roads. Yet our roads are more congested than ever and are arguably less safe. There is no sign, for example, of publication of the promised road traffic legislation to introduce a penalty points system for road offences. The publication date of that long overdue legislation is now said to be sometime in 2001. Driver testing and the issuing of driving licences, which is directly under the Department's control, is in a mess. In some areas it is taking the best part of a year to get a driving test. In a reply to my colleague, Deputy Spring, last week, we were told that in Finglas and Raheny the waiting period for the driving test is 46 weeks. Meanwhile there are a large number of people on the roads who are simply not qualified to drive and who do not have a full driving licence. This is in the context of 400 deaths per year in road accidents with almost 10,000 people being injured. Telling us there are large dollops of money for national and regional roads may be very impressive. However, people living in urban housing estates where road surfaces have deteriorated and where footpaths are broken, cracked and dangerous will not be impressed. Later I will ask a number of questions when we discuss the roads programme.

As a country we are embarrassed by the fact that under this Administration the EU is taking us to court for our failure to protect the Irish environment under a number of directives. In the Minister's reply to a parliamentary question last Thursday we were told that there are six EU directives under which court action has been commenced by the EU, with an additional 11 complaints being considered by the European Commission. I have some understanding that complaints are made and that the Department can reply, but it is highly significant that the European Commission has not been satisfied with the responses it has received from the Government to the point that it has decided to proceed with court action in some cases. The EPA's millennium report states:

Ireland's international commitment is to limit greenhouse gas emissions in the period 2008-2012 to 13% above 1990 levels. However, the percentage increase already exceeds this and in a business as usual scenario Ireland's emission by that period would reach more than twice the limit.

We have totally failed to reach our international obligations, generous as they were given that they allowed for a considerable increase in emissions. Under the stewardship of the Government we are failing to meet the international commitments entered into by the country to protect the global environment. Various measures mentioned in Government policy documents and in the programme for Government, such as eco-auditing, are not happening. Over a number of budgets no attempt has been made, for example, to introduce any kind of environmental fiscal measures which would have the effect of reducing the level of pollution.

I have spoken previously about the blight of litter, the most visible evidence that this Government is not dealing with problems in the environment. There have been many public relations exercises and initiatives in this area but litter is not actually being cleaned up, nor are our public spaces being maintained in an efficient manner to the standard of most other European countries.

The Estimate is very impressive in financial terms but one must ask why, when the Government has so much money available to it and when Ministers can come before committees and speak about increases in expenditure of the order of 26% or 29%, over which most Ministers in previous Governments would have drooled, they are getting it so wrong? Given the resources available to the Government, why is it that the management of housing, roads and the environment is in such an appalling state? The Minister and his colleagues have some very serious questions to answer in regard to their three year stewardship and I look forward to hearing some answers to those questions.

Chairman

We now commence our discussion of subheads A.1 to A.7 on the administrative budget.

Mr. Dukes

Most of the content of these subheads cannot be discussed by individual sectoral committees. We are not going to discuss salaries in the Department which is a much wider issue. It would also be very crude and unmannerly to discuss such matters in the current climate. I am puzzled by the content of some of the subheads. Subhead A.3, for example, covers expenses such as advertising, environment promotion, staff training, rent of offices - including test centres - and miscellaneous costs. I wonder how much of any of those services one could obtain for £1,095,000. If this figure represents the entire compass of environment promotion, we are not really taking that issue very seriously. I hope I will be informed that the environment awareness campaign and the Tidy Towns campaign are not being funded out of this figure. Could the Minister provide us with a breakdown of the various consultancy projects covered by the £395,000 under subhead A.7?

Mr. Gilmore

I understand this is the administrative budget for the Department itself. Has any estimate been carried out of the total administrative cost of all public services provided under the umbrella of the Department of the Environment and Local Government, including the various agencies and local authorities under its aegis? On a related point, what examination, if any, has been undertaken to eliminate duplication of effort in administration? It seems to me that there is a considerable level of unnecessary duplication in administrative procedures in some areas of activity.

On public relations spending, the Minister, in reply to a parliamentary question some time ago, informed me that the total expenditure on public relations last year was in the region of £600,000. What is the estimated total expenditure on public relations in its various forms for this year and where is that reflected in the subheads? To what specific matters does this public relations expenditure relate?

Mr. Hayes

The housing forum agreed with the social partners last December is in the process of being set up. Will the forum fall within the Department's remit and, if so, will it come under any of the subheads A.1 to A.7? What finance, if any, is being provided for the forum?

The Minister will be aware of the Department of Finance document on public procurement. On subhead A.7, will he confirm that a tender process, involving interested companies within the State and outside of it, is undergone in regard to every consultancy project prior to contracts being awarded?

Mr. Dempsey

On the breakdown of subhead A.3, it is estimated that advertising will cost in the region of £140,000. That figure will cover routine advertising and any special campaigns which will arise for consultants or special notices in the newspapers. Environment promotion relates to the production and printing costs associated with the Environment Bulletin and miscellaneous expenses associated with environmental activities and it is estimated that these will cost in the region of £70,000. The awareness campaign comes under its own heading. A figure of £370,000 has been allocated for staff training and development, £60,000 for entertainment, £450,000 for miscellaneous costs and £5,000 for an groupa stiúrtha.

Under subhead A.7, the first consultancy project is a review of cabling needs in Ballina to upgrade IT facilities. The contract was awarded in May 2000 to O'Dea Consultants and a report is expected in June. Consultants have yet to be selected in regard to cabling needs and advice onthe upgrading of the IT network in the Custom House. Requests for tender have issued in regard to the upgrade of the network operating system and advice on the implementation of e-Government. The non-IT consultancies will involve consultants for external advice for the PPP unit, the Construction Industry Review and Outlook, which is an annual publication, where people must be in place for the first review of the County and City Development Board's framework, the costings of the local authority services, development of markets for recyclable materials, the national spatial development strategies and the delineation of vulnerable zones under the nitrates directives, development of internal communications in the Department, cataloguing and updating of personnel records, consultancies under the Public Service Management Act, finalising of the retail planning guidelines, funding of committee for public management research and drafting of the landscape guidelines. We expect to engage these various consultancies during 2000.

On the main agencies under the aegis of the Department, the administration budgets appear under the various sections such as national roads and so on. On the duplication of effort etc, like every other Department in the Public Service, my Department is engaged in various initiatives under the SMI such as looking at various ways of doing business to avoid duplication. There is no public relations expenditure. Items of expenditure relating to the awareness campaign and so on - which was the answer to a question by Deputy Gilmore some time ago - related to an environmental awareness campaign. There is no public relations expenditure within the Department. The total expenditure for an environmental awareness campaign or communicationscampaign in relation to spatial strategy orwhatever would come under the relevant subhead.

On Deputy Hayes's point on tendering and so on, all the consultants will go through the public procurement procedures laid down for public tendering. If there is no tendering procedure the contracts are assessed by the Government Contracts Committee. This might arise if there was just one response to a tender advertisement.

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment and Local Government (Mr. Molloy)

In relation to the housing forum, the Estimates were prepared before the PPF was adopted. The operation of this will not result in a lot of expense which is provided for under subhead B1.17 - Housing Research and Organisation. Under this heading, grant-aid is paid towards the administration and general expenses incurred by organisations which conduct research or provide information, advice or training in relation to housing. Any expense will be included under that subhead.

Sitting suspended at 10.45 a.m. and resumed at 11.10 a.m.

Mr. Gilmore

I wanted to pursue the Minister about his statement that the Estimate did not contain any expenditure on public relations. In a reply to the parliamentary question I asked about expenditure in 1999, a figure of £120,000 was given for salaries for staff who work exclusively on press and public relations in the Department. There were also two PR consultancy figures, one of around £150,000 and other of about £400,000. What has been estimated for these purposes this year?

Mr. Dukes

The Minister mentioned two consultancy studies I would like to follow up. One concerns retail planning guidelines. Did the Minister say that he expects that to be concluded shortly or has it already been concluded? On the consultancy in connection with the development of the national spatial development strategy, will the Minister indicate when that report will be ready and how it meshes with the preparation of the strategy?

Mr. Dempsey

The initial document on the national spatial development strategy is being published today and, as a part of its preparation, the spatial strategy unit has identified all of the tasks that must be performed to ensure there is a comprehensive strategy. It has also identified the tasks that can be handled by the unit itself, by the wider Department, in consultation with other Departments and areas where it feels it will need external consultants. Those consultants are the people for whom we are making provision in the Estimate. It is not yet clear who will be appointed but there will be advertisements for that in the near future.

There was an initial study into retail planning guidelines and a report was presented to Cabinet. Further consultants were appointed to examine the economic impact of the implementation of the guidelines and that study is now being finalised. The provision in this Estimate is for the latter consultancy carried out on behalf of my Department and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. It deals with the competitiveness aspects of the suggested retail planning guidelines.

The press and information office has existed in the Department for some time. The salaries will be the same as last year plus approved increases. The same number of people are operating in the office as was the case last year and during the term of office of my predecessor.

Consultants are involved in the environmental awareness campaign. We are talking about a campaign costing around £1 million total, including the partnership fund and other awareness campaigns. The figure does not represent just the advertising element. I will give the Deputy a breakdown of the figures.

Sitting suspended at 11.15 a.m. and resumed at 11.40 a.m.

Chairman

We will resume at subheads B1 to B4. We are exactly one hour behind schedule.

Mr. Hayes

While the amounts are substantial, the real issue is how we can deliver on the money and extend the programme further. The view of the committee is that there is a need for an emergency housing assessment, following the March 1999 assessment. Things have moved on so much that we must be in a position over the summer to assess the current scale of housing lists, on a national basis. Has the Minister considered this idea which has been put to him on many occasions by this committee and in the House?

I note in subhead B1.1, the provision of local authority housing, that the total expenditure in 2000 will be £312 million. Of that, I understand approximately £71 million is made up of direct payments by local authorities from their capital accounts. Can the Minister explain why that figure is so low? According to the last Estimates, in 1999, the local authority contribution was £67 million. The Minister is suggesting that in the year 2000 the local authority contribution will be £71 million, which is the difference between the total expenditure he wishes to make and the global figure. That seems a very small figure and does not seem to keep abreast of the increase he has brought about in this subhead.

Why is such a small percentage of the £312 million made up payments from local authority capital accounts at a time when local authority capital accounts are bulging at the seams? I know this from the Dublin area where there are four local authorities, three of them boasting vast sums of money in their capital accounts. They are asset rich. At a time when we need so much housing, surely we should use money from those capital accounts on the direct provision of local authority and private housing. Why is the figure of £71 million, as a component of the £312 million, so small?

Will the Minister answer each question individually or will the Minister answer them all together?

Mr. Molloy

I will answer that question. The £71.5 million represents receipts from the sale of local authority houses and the payments to different local authorities. That is the estimate of the sum total which is expected to come in during the year 2000. That is then added to the amount we are providing from the Exchequer. The total provision for housing in the year 2000, taking all headings into account, is £808.7 million. That includes the internal capital receipts from local authorities which Deputy Hayes has mentioned. That is spent on the local authority programme and other schemes such as the affordable housing, shared ownership and rental subsidy schemes where the capital requirements are financed by borrowings from the Housing Finance Agency. The figure includes capital, both Voted and non-voted, together with current expenditure. It represents an increase of £230.4 million, or 40%, on the 1999 provision of £578 million.

We have had many references to housing and discussions on the subject. That is a global figure and everything that is included under different headings happens below that global figure. That is the gross total of everything and it is a very substantial amount of money.

Mr. Hayes

I accept that the global figure is substantial. However, it is all about making additional housing units available. Last year the Department's expenditure rose by 18% on the previous year but only an additional 210 housing units were delivered. We are obviously running to stand still on this matter. Either the local authorities are getting it wrong totally, construction costs are going through the roof or there are other reasons. Why is it that while this committee is assessing the increasing expenditure we are not getting the required results?

The Minister for the Environment and Local Government gave a figure of 10,800 households which will be catered for this year. Can the Minister of State outline precisely how he arrived at that figure? It is very suspect, given that this year he hopes to build 5,500 units. Where will the rest come from? I know he will tell me a large number of the extra units will come from letting arrangements by which people are letting their houses but the figure is very suspect.

Mr. Molloy

When one makes an allocation of housing starts to local authorities for the year 2000 one cannot refer to that as expected completions for that year. We have taken many initiatives to crank up the housing output of local authorities. The allocations of starts which I authorise local authorities to make will be funded in every case. It is then up to the local authorities to make the necessary arrangements.

In order to advance local authority house construction programmes on the ground, we have changed to a multi-annual programme which means they are not working from year to year. They know in advance what will be expected of them generally in the production of housing units and the preparations required for that, such as the provision of available land and services, the design of housing schemes, identification of sites and the approval of contracts. In several instances, local authorities have been encouraged to bring forward their programmes. Even though they are allocated 5,500 starts this year, I am encouraging them to achieve a higher number than that if they can.

Last year, I took a close look at what the local authorities have been doing. It was clear that some local authorities were very dilatory in achieving the number of starts for which they were being given funding. I wrote to the managers of each local authority where it was obvious that not enough progress had been made and sent a copy of the letter to each local authority chairman so that the elected members would know that their authority was not sufficiently advanced in preparations to achieve the construction of the housing starts for which it had been allocated funding. I do not say the fault lies entirely with local authorities. They are being asked to increase their housing output to a much higher level than they were two, three or four years ago and to make the necessary arrangements for that. Some say they have land difficulties and other difficulties.

We have taken account of the huge demand for housing arising from our economic growth rates, the number of people at work, extra disposable income and other factors. We are setting much higher targets for local authorities and hoping they will achieve an increased level of output within the allocation period. By bringing forward the allocations for this year into November of last year, when they were notified, local authorities have been given notice well in advance. They are being told they can plan for an even higher level of starts than they have been allocated and I expect to see a dramatic increase in the output but it takes time. We expect 4,000 local authority house completions this year.

Mr. Hayes

Just this year?

Mr. Molloy

Yes. That is a realistic figure based on what we know. There is a special unit in the Department continually gathering information from the local authorities. There are 1,100 schemes under way or planned at different local authority levels that we must follow up. The average size of a local authority housing scheme is about ten or 11 houses. It is not like the old days where 2,000 houses were built in one estate in Limerick and thousands of houses were built in Tallaght. In my area, 700 or 800 houses were built. These massive housing estates led to social problems and we now have smaller schemes in order to achieve better integration and avoid, as far as possible, the social deprivation and problems that arose. The expectation is that we will have 4,000 local authority houses. An amount is included in this calculation for vacancies that will arise during the year in existing housing stock. The estimate is that there will be 3,500; the output from voluntary housing capital assistance scheme, 500; rental subsidy scheme, 500; improvement works in lieu and extensions to local authority houses, 400; mortgage allowance, 250; shared ownership, 1,200; affordable housing scheme, 500, making a grand total of 10,850. In effect, that number of families will be housed or will achieve a major improvement in their housing circumstances arising from the provisions for social housing this year.

Mr. Killeen

I welcome the fact that the Minister and the Government recognise that a high rate of housing output in the years ahead is the key component in dealing with this issue. I would be concerned if all the talk about the crisis in housing were to lead to the adoption of some of the daft ideas being floated which would be unhelpful to the housing problem and I am confident they will not. Having another review is a constructive way to deal with this following on the Bacon report.

As regards the voluntary sector, anecdotal evidence suggests that some voluntary agencies do not have a good relationship with local authorities. While such evidence is notoriously unreliable, some of them believe the local authorities could deal with them in a more professional manner. I know some of the difficulties arise in the area of planning. It would be helpful if the Minister would call on county managers to ensure that this sector is dealt with as fairly and expeditiously as possible.

Deputy Hayes referred to grants for new houses and indicated the number was lower than previously. I cannot help but notice the size of new houses, particularly one off houses, being built by young couples. They are massive. There was a time when it was fashionable to talk about bungalow blight but such bungalows are dwarfed by these new buildings. It seems to give the lie to the story that nobody can afford a house. I do not know how many children these people intend to have or what they intend to do in these houses. Are there statistics available on the size of houses being built? Perhaps there might be merit in considering giving a higher grant for a house with less than 1,345 sq. ft. If there were a more generous grant for a 1,000 sq. ft. unit, it might have an impact.

Mr. Gilmore

As regards the figures given by the Minister on what he expects the performance will be this year under the various social housing programmes, he said there would be 4,000 houses built - 500 voluntary houses and 3,500 casual vacancies. He then gave figures for the shared ownership scheme, affordable housing scheme and so on. Looking solely at the construction and voluntary sector and casual vacancies, which is really the area that concerns people on the housing list as affordable housing caters for another category of people, we are talking about a total of 8,000 as against the numbers seeking local authority housing which has already been acknowledged as being in excess of 40,000.

The casual vacancy figure is probably double counted because each successive vacancy that arises as a result of a transfer is counted separately. It is not a net figure and I would like to know that figure. The best that will be achieved this year under local authority provision, voluntary sector and casual vacancies is between 7,000 and 8,000. That is a long way from the 40,000 who are seeking local authority housing and it does not include those seeking other forms of social housing to which the Minister referred.

One of the most dramatic illustrations of the problem is on page 11 of the housing statistics bulletin which shows the total housing output for each year since 1990. Last year it was over 46,000 houses. However, the output of social housing, that is, local authority and voluntary sector housing, has been static for the past five or six years. It is lower now than it was in 1995. Seven per cent of total housing output is accounted for by local authority and social housing. Whoever is buying the 46,000 houses built last year, it is certainly not those at the bottom of the ladder in terms of housing need. We know that the number of people looking for local authority housing is growing dramatically and from our discussions on the Planning and Development Bill we know that eligibility for assisted housing will be widened in terms of the affordable schemes. How will the housing need of those who cannot afford to buy be met when only 7% of total housing output is being provided for in local authority and social housing?

Mr. Molloy

It has never been the case that everyone who applied for a local authority house was housed immediately. Historically we have always had waiting lists.

Mr. Gilmore

But never as many as now.

Mr. Molloy

The problem is the big increase in the number on the waiting list and the ability to build more houses to meet the demand. We are also acutely conscious that there has been a huge increase in the numbers in need of social housing. It has to be recognised that some of those seeking such housing would have had expectations of being able to provide a house for themselves in different circumstances three or four years ago. Because of the level of demand, the scarcity and price of housing however, they are not in a position to provide a private house on their own site.

We are living in extraordinary times. We have not ever before experienced anything like this in the economy. We are dealing with issues arising from economic growth. While the Government is seeking to increase output as quickly as possible to meet recognised needs, as Deputy Dukes mentioned, it has to be recognised that there are capacity constraints. Advantage is also being taken by some house builders in the prices quoted. While this is not an inhibiting factor because we fund the allocated units, it is not attractive for contractors to tender, particularly where only a small number of houses is involved, at a time when there are other opportunities available. This has to be included in the equation. Builders are not queuing up to build local authority houses.

We are seeking to remove the constraints to enable the market to operate more efficiently and respond quickly to meet the urgent need for housing. We know from the local authorities and our own political work that the figures produced from the housing list assessment undertaken last March 12 months are being exceeded. Demand has not abated, it is increasing.

It is not realistic to suggest that all the other schemes should be eliminated because they are not meeting the need for housing. It has always been recognised that the needs of those on the housing list can be met under different headings. I have tried to place tremendous emphasis on the capacity of the voluntary housing sector to play a much greater role. It recognises this. I have been informed that with the right circumstances the sector can make a much greater contribution to housing output. Based on its own realistic expectations we scale this at 4,000 houses per year by the end of the period of the national development plan. Factors to be taken into account include the availability of land, the granting of planning permission within a reasonable period and the availability of funding, which has been increased substantially to ensure cost is not an obstacle to increasing output. Steps have been taken to encourage local authority managers and officials to co-operate with the sector more effectively to ensure there are not any unnecessary delays and obstacles are not put in its way.

Chairman

We will suspend the sitting until 12.15 p.m.

Mr. Hayes

Given that there are three Ministers and three members of the Opposition present would it be possible to pair off? Am I asking a naive question?

Mr. Molloy

If that private pairing arrangement was to fall down there could be all sorts of consequences.

Mr. Hayes

The Minister of State has my word.

Chairman

It would have to be done through the Whips.

Mr. Hayes

It cannot be done.

Mr. Molloy

We are not at liberty to do it.

Sitting suspended at 12.05 p.m. and resumed at 12.20 p.m.

Chairman

We have now spent 25 minutes on housing. Given that some of the Ministers have a time commitment I appeal for support in dealing with the remaining items.

Mr. Hayes

I am conscious of that. On the £71 million which local authorities can get from the sale of their houses, is the Minister telling the committee that the £71 million they expect to spend this year from their own resources in terms of additional housing starts is dependent on the number of houses they sell in their areas? Is there a way in which other capital sums can be spent on housing? Is it dependent purely on the amount of resources taken in from the sale of houses before they can spend it? If that is the situation, it is ludicrous at a time when local authorities are encouraged to buy more houses.

We will deal with the issue of the changing target every week in respect of the new start allocations. Given that the targets have not been met in the past three years I do not expect they will be met this year. Is the Minister saying he will not initiate - as he is entitled to do under the Housing Act - a full assessment this summer of the current level of need on the national housing list?

Mr. Molloy

The £71 million, to which the Deputy has referred, is the sum total of the annual repayments that will accrue to the local authorities arising out of sales agreements which they have entered into over different years. It is a stream of funding that is available to them. They can spend it on their local authority housing programme in addition to what will be allocated by the Department.

Mr. Hayes

They cannot spend any more than the capital account. They are limited to £71 million and the amount they receive from the Minister's office.

Mr. Molloy

The only funding that is available to them is from that source, other than the Exchequer.

Mr. Hayes

That is my question. Surely at a time when they should be building houses, they can use other money to fund them? It seems the rules that apply to capital accounts are completely restricted in terms of the ability of the local authority to build more houses.

Mr. Molloy

We have been increasing the funding from the Exchequer to local authorities. To be quite honest at this stage, money is not the problem or the issue, but rather the capacity of the different housing authorities to organise themselves to build and have occupied as quickly as possible, the houses which have been approved. There is no need to carry out another major assessment. A statutory assessment is carried out every three years. We have been in touch with local authorities in regard to what is happening in respect of their housing lists and we have a general idea of the demand. Demand has increased. The proposed 5,500 new starts for this year is a hefty increase on what was allocated last year in the multi-annual programme. We keep housing continuously under review. As I have already discussed in parliamentary questions, we have Bacon back on board for another assessment. It is ongoing. We have an internal review in the Department in conjunction with the Department of Finance. A question that arises is that if we continue to pour in money, will local authorities be able to spend it. That is not a real issue. I see the need for an increase in the number of new starts. They have permission in the multi-annual programme to increase the 5,500 new starts. We are looking at those figures as part of the current review, the outcome of which will be published within two or three weeks.

Mr. Hayes

Can the Minister forward to me and other members the list of local authorities that are not performing? He mentioned in the course of his comments that he is not satisfied with the output from some local authorities.

Mr. Molloy

I am not anxious to get into a witch-hunt of local authorities. The party of which the Deputy is a member and the bigger parties have members on nearly all these housing authorities already. My party does not have representatives on each authority, but it has representatives on some of them. Information on what is happening is easily accessible through the membership of the Deputy's party. I do not want this to develop into a witch hunt. The authorities are doing their best, but the situation is difficult. There is not a queue of contractors trying to get a hold of this contract.

Mr. Hayes

In terms of best practice, I am sure the committee would be interested to know which local authorities are models in terms of their ability to achieve their output and exceed it and which cannot achieve it. This committee is responsible for this issue. If we had that information, which should not be used for a witch hunt, we could establish——

Mr. Molloy

Taking a balanced approach, one has to——

Chairman

I call Deputy Gilmore.

Mr. Molloy

May I answer this point, as the giving of such information could be viewed as the basis for a witch hunt into establishing what local authorities are or are not doing. One must take a balanced view, in other words, one would have to show alongside those figures the reasons local authorities would give for their not achieving the targets set. In many cases members of local authorities and members of the public oppose rezoning, even rezoning for the purposes of house building, and local action plans. Members of political parties make up local authorities and, in many cases, there is strong opposition in this area from elected members. They work against us achieving higher levels of output.

Mr. Hayes

The committee is here to help the Minister of State.

Mr. Molloy

It would help me more if at local authority level——

Mr. Hayes

The provision of such information will help the process.

Mr. Gilmore

There is no point in blaming the local authority. The Minister of State has responsibility for this area. The pattern is quite clear. The 4,000 builds this year is short 5,500 approved starts and the 500 voluntary sector houses built is far short of the 4,000 target set in the national development plan. Each year over the past number of years the number of house completions has fallen well short of the number of allocations. Is it not time to consider attempting to deliver the housing programme in a different way? When there was a problem regarding road building, the Minister of State's Department was very quick to set up the National Roads Authority. Is it not time to set up a national housing authority to drive a housing programme to provide the necessary number of houses required? It will be interesting to revisit those figures at the end of the year as, if anything, they are probably ambitious. The Minister of State's responsibility in this area is not to send circulars to local authorities. If the targets set are not being achieved, a different way must found to ensure they are achieved. One way of achieving that is to follow the model used in other areas of the Department's remit, including the delivery on the roads programme.

I want to raise two other points on the housing programme. I touched on one of those points on Question Time last week. I suggested that a programme, similar to the bathrooms programme, should be introduced for the provision of heating in local authority houses. Heating is provided as standard in new houses and in refurbished dwellings, but in many older dwellings, and some not so old, heating is not provided and many of those dwellings are occupied by elderly people.

With regard to the part of the programme that deals with Traveller accommodation, I am surprised that under subhead B1.11 there is a reduction of £2,000 on the 1999 figures, albeit a relatively small reduction, for the management and maintenance of Traveller accommodation. Given that following the implementation of the Traveller accommodation Act, additional Traveller accommodation will be provided, it is unwise to reduce the allocation for the maintenance and management of Traveller accommodation. One of the messages the Minister of State and his Department must be getting from local authorities which adopted Traveller accommodation plans is the necessity to provide additional resources for the maintenance and management of existing schemes and the new schemes that will come on stream shortly.

Mr. Molloy

The Deputy raised a number of points. I take it Deputy Gilmore is suggesting that the housing functions should be removed from locally elected councillors. If that is the policy of the Labour Party, so be it, but it is not a policy the Government parties would support.

Mr. Gilmore

That is not what I said.

Mr. Molloy

The Deputy said that power should be removed from them.

Mr. Gilmore

No, I said the Minister of State should establish a national housing authority to lead the delivery of houses.

Mr. Molloy

Yes, but at present we have——

Mr. Gilmore

It is patently clear that the required houses are not being provided.

Mr. Molloy

At present, the housing authority is each local authority. They are housing authorities and they also have general local authority functions. Public housing is provided through that system. It is suggested that those functions should be handed over to a national housing authority.

Mr. Gilmore

That is a distortion of what I said.

Mr. Molloy

The Housing Finance Agency helps local authorities fund their programmes. The National Building Agency assists local authorities, particularly in the design of new housing schemes. Those two national organisations are in place to support local housing authorities. Social housing must be delivered within that system.

On the question of providing a heating scheme similar to the bathroom scheme, the allocation for the special housing aid for the elderly scheme was increased from £6 million to £8 million this year. The health boards or the task force that operate that scheme have been told that the increase in the allocation is to cover not only the expansion in demand but the provision of heating facilities, where they are deemed necessary, for the elderly.

Where regeneration or renewal works are carried out in a major way by local authorities, heating is included and funded. The Deputy mentioned that. The ordinary maintenance of a local authority's housing stock is the responsibility of that local authority. Local authorities have their own resources and have receipts from housing sales. This money can be used to improve their housing stock and, where necessary if it deemed appropriate, provide heating facilities. For the past number of years, all new houses are provided with central heating as standard.

With regard to Traveller accommodation, the Estimate for 1999 was £1,050,000, but the amount spent was £1.131 million, leaving an excess of £80,729 to be recouped over the Estimate. The amount provided here is not a cap on the funding that can be provided for the management and maintenance of Traveller accommodation. I have encouraged local authority management to be active in ensuring that they provide good management and maintenance procedures because the taxpayer is making a substantial contribution in helping to provide our Travelling community with better housing facilities. The progress being made at local authority level is not fast enough from my point of view.

Where local authorities provide modern conditions for the Travelling community, it is essential there is an ongoing management procedure in place to ensure good maintenance of those facilities. Some of the objections from the public to the location of facilities for Traveller families arise because of poor maintenance of facilities. Where unfortunate families are obliged to live on the side of the road, they do not have facilities to keep the place tidy and clean, but where they live in facilities provided by local authorities, it is essential that a maintenance procedure for such accommodation is in place. Any proposals I get from local authorities for management and maintenance programmes for Traveller facilities provided in their area will be funded. No matter what the heading says here, I can assure Deputies that money will not be the cause of their applications being rejected.

This is an essential part of our programme to assist our fellow citizens, the travellers, by providing good housing conditions for them in the manner they desire. Some of them want a hard stand situation and others require group housing. Some are going into local authority housing. We are referring here, however, to the hard stands and group housing. It is essential that they are properly maintained and money will be provided for that.

Chairman

Subheads C1 to C4 relate to roads.

Ms Clune

I am seeking clarification. The Minister referred in his opening statement to an Estimate of £700 million for the year 2000, an increase of 7% on the 1999 funding. I cannot see that in the subheads. The figure I have is £482 million for this year.

Mr. Dempsey

That is a composite of the money available for roads in the Estimates this year, including the amount taken from the local government fund.

Ms Clune

The bulk of the Estimate is for the National Roads Authority for the improvement, development and construction of national primary and secondary roads. The Government is committed to spending £4.4 billion on this in the national development plan. The Estimate for this year is about 10% of that.

Will the Minister respond to the recent report of the Comptroller and Auditor General regarding overspending on road projects, lax supervision and ongoing reviews of projects? There appears to be much room for improvement which could result in an increase in the number of kilometres of road built. Is this issue not taken seriously enough? If it happened in the private sector, every pound overspent would be scrutinised to the nth degree. This problem must be addressed seriously.

When the national development plan was launched, the Government announced it would set up a special group to look at the development of these projects. The National Roads Authority has included future development projects with a view to moving them along. That is important but, for various reasons, major projects can be held up for long periods. That is most frustrating for all involved. What progress has been made in looking to the future and advancing projects?

Mr. Gilmore

I have two questions. One is the point I raised in my opening remarks about roads in urban areas. Many of the roads in housing estates which have been taken in charge by local authorities are in extremely poor condition. This is also true of footpaths. Much of the road surface is cracked and in a dangerous condition. Where in this Estimate is money provided to address that problem?

My second question relates to the national roads programme. The Minister and the National Roads Authority have been saying for some time that within six years there will be motorway standard roads between Dublin and Galway, Dublin and Limerick, Dublin and Cork, Dublin and the south east and Dublin and the north east. Is everything on target to meet that deadline?

Mr. Dempsey

With regard to the first point made by Deputy Clune that this year we are talking in terms of approximately 10% of the overall national development plan moneys for the six year period, that figure is correct. Last year, however, the starting figure was exceeded by approximately £80 million and we had to seek a Supplementary Estimate. I anticipate that something similar will happen this year. We are cranking up the system, as it were, to try to reach the targets we have mentioned. This year the estimate is £390 million and over the next six years it is intended to increase that to reach a figure of £730 million, in 1999 prices, by 2006. There will be a gradual increase.

Much of the focus of the NRA at present is on future planning and design. We have increased the amount available for that from approximately £9 million three years ago to over £40 million this year. A large number of projects are being put in place. The statutory procedures are going ahead for roads in various areas and there was publicity about some of them in the recent past. Prior to this, the NRA to a certain extent tailored its programme and the planning and design to the amounts of money it was receiving. If anything went wrong in a project, therefore, or there was a delay for court action and so forth, there was no fall back. There were no other projects waiting.

The system has been cranked up in planning and design. There is a range of new organisations within the NRA such as the regional design offices and so forth. They are increasing output in the planning and design areas. That is relevant to Deputy Gilmore's question on how we are proceeding in relation to the major projects outlined by the Government.

The NRA, as part of the reporting structure that is now in place to the Cabinet infrastructure committee, has outlined a programme for the provision of these roads. All projects and the projections the authority has given us in relation to timescales for the various stages are on schedule and in some cases slightly ahead. Certainly, in the last report, none of the new projects that are ongoing had fallen behind. There have been delays in a number of projects in the past because of court cases but we are pressing ahead with them now, having cleared the outstanding difficulties to our satisfaction.

With regard to the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, there has been a substantial change in the management of projects on foot of that report. In fairness, however, the NRA had been concerned about this issue for some time. An internal review in the NRA was carried out by consultants some years ago. New systems were put in place and there is also a new project management system to ensure we get full value for money on these projects and that timetables are adhered to.

Deputy Gilmore spoke about footpaths and roads in housing estates. That is the responsibility of local authorities. The block grants to urban authorities last year were slightly under £14 million. This year they are over £16 million. The funding is supposed to be used for footpaths and so forth. We specifically mentioned footpaths and there are grants for that. If my recollection is correct, in 1997 the block grants to urban authorities was approximately £7 million so the amount has more than doubled.

I have been conscious of this problem for some time. My colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Wallace, was one of the first people to bring it and the amount of moneys being allocated to urban authorities to my attention so we have more than doubled the amount over the last three years. It is an area on which I tend to focus because it is important.

Mr. Killeen

I have a number of queries about the NRA's practice in public procurement in terms of two stage selective tendering and open tendering. I understand there is some disquiet among civil engineering contractors. It is their job to look after their own interests but they have expressed the concern that the two stage system has the potential to exclude them from entering the sector in the first instance or to prevent Irish companies growing. There are obligations under EU directives to accommodate non-national companies if they are interested.

Among the questions they asked is who sets the qualification point and should all contractors who reach it be allowed to tender? Is it proper procedure to decide in advance that five or six will be allowed to tender and effectively force somebody, including the consultant, to decide which companies should be shortlisted? There are difficulties with open tendering because of the huge amount of documentation involved. The costs for contractors are substantial in any event. However, its merit is that it is more open and transparent than the two stage system which is beginning to cause trouble.

It has been copied from the UK strategic review committee and it is creating a number of difficulties. For example, there might be a requirement that a contractor must have completed a certain amount of earth works in the previous year. He might have exceeded that amount for five years previously, but not in the preceding year and, therefore, he would be debarred. The selection criteria need to be considered. For example, there are large projects in parts of the country to the value of £20 million or £30 million which are out to open tender. There are smaller projects for which selective tendering is being used. There is much confusion about what type of criteria are being employed and who decides whether the competition is open or two stage. A question can also arise in relation to additional works and the way they are priced. A number of issues in relation to public procurement practices need to considered with regard to the NRA.

Mr. Dempsey

The NRA operates independently of the Department in relation to specific contracts. It operates under the general policy guidelines of the Department, but I do not interfere in its tendering procedures. However, the authority is subject to all the public procurement regulations that are in place. It must comply with those regulations. The Department also places an onus on it to use the most effective and efficient methods of putting work out to tender, etc. I cannot second guess it in relation to that area. I may be proved incorrect but I understand it is in frequent contact with the CIF and the representative organisations. I presume it listens to the views of those representative bodies.

There is logic in having pre-qualification or a two stage process for bigger projects. Not everybody would have the capacity to compete for every project. From the point of view of the NRA and contractors, there is no point allowing totally open tendering arrangements for large projects given that the NRA and its consultants are aware of the number of firms that might have the capacity to deliver on contracts. They could waste much time and companies could waste much money competing for such contracts.

In practice, successful contractors have graduated in stages from smaller schemes to medium and larger projects. The NRA and the industry has this knowledge. However, if there are specific difficulties, we should know about them. My fear is not that people are being excluded, but that there are insufficient people to deliver the programme. I do not accept the view expressed by constituent parts of the CIF or the body itself that there is sufficient capacity in the Irish construction industry to deliver these projects. Only two companies tendered for a recent large road scheme. Some people are trying to put out the message that there is plenty of capacity in the Irish industry and that there is no need to invite and encourage foreign firms to come to Ireland. However, I do not accept that message. There is a need for outside capacity from the point of view of the delivery of projects. If there is more competition, better value will be secured from contracts and we will encourage such a development.

Chairman

We will now consider subheads D1 to D3 under the environment heading.

Mr. Gilmore

Until what time does the Chairman intend to continue the meeting?

Chairman

Can we continue until 1.30 p.m. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Ms Clune

Will the Minister give a breakdown of the type of treatment for which this money is being allocated? I understand from the Minister's comments that it is focused on the major sewerage schemes that are being constructed in Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Dundalk, Galway and Sligo. The EPA said recently that major sewerage works are needed in Waterford. Perhaps the Minister could clarify that matter.

Only 2% is provided for tertiary treatment. What is the position in that regard? This area should be expanded, particularly in light of the level of discharges into waterways. Many facilities only provide primary treatment. Will this money be allocated to new projects or will it be used to upgrade existing projects that fall short in terms of overall requirements?

Will the Minister indicate how the money for waste management projects will be spent? The Minister mentioned environmental awareness and said people must be encouraged to become more environmentally aware. This is necessary but many of the campaigns have not had much impact on the public. He said the measures will include the practice of recycling glass and plastic bottles. I am not aware of anywhere that it is possible to recycle plastic bottles from domestic waste. Funding should be targeted at encouraging recycling. There is huge frustration with regard to local waste management projects because the public feels the only solutions being suggested to our waste management problem are landfill sites or incineration. Much more needs to be done to develop public confidence and ensure a recycling culture in Ireland. Infrastructure should exist to develop recycling but that is not happening. Our recycling policy is based on the public's goodwill to bring their recyclable products to sites.

As regards the anti-litter initiative, the statistics for the first six months of 1999 show that only 59% of on-the-spot fines were paid. Some 23 local authorities did not issue on-the-spot fines and 51 did not take any prosecutions under the Litter Act. It is obvious to anyone walking along our streets that the Litter Act is not being enforced. We have had a number of litter campaigns and local authorities and county and city managers have been reminded of their responsibilities in this regard.

The Minister of State indicated it is a difficult problem. However, the solution is to enforce the Litter Act. We can have all the campaigns, reminders and school programmes we like, but we need to send a strong message to the public by increasing the number of litter wardens and the number of prosecutions and by getting tough on litter. Numerous letters have been written to the newspapers criticising our urban areas and I am sure the Minister has received correspondence on it. As we approach the summer when pubs will be open later, our streets and beaches will be destroyed with litter. We must do more to clean up our litter.

Mr. Gilmore

In the aftermath of last week's report from the United States Environmental Protection Agency on the environmental consequences of waste incineration, is it still the Government's policy to proceed with the construction and operation of incinerators for waste? What is the total amount of money being provided in the Estimates for recycling? Does the Minister accept we will not meet the recycling targets set in the Government's policy document if we continue to have a Mickey Mouse type operation where we recycle on a pilot and experimental basis in a corner of the council depot? When will we seriously invest in recycling operations or when will resources be diverted from the traditional way of managing waste?

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment and Local Government (Mr. D. Wallace)

Deputies Gilmore and Dukes referred to the management and control of litter. I do not agree with them. I accept we have a litter problem and that we must continue to address it in a determined manner.

Deputy Clune referred to the enforcement of the Litter Act. We increased on-the-spot fines to £50 earlier this year. We are continually in contact with local authorities in relation to enforcement. It was also mentioned that local authorities do not have the resources to implement the Act. However, I find that difficult to accept. If the litter wardens pursue people and fine them £50, it is self-financing. We have seen it work in other areas, such as when the gardaí impose speeding fines.

We can make progress if litter wardens are in place and are pursuing the litter agenda. I am not underestimating the problem. We must adopt the two pronged approach of enforcement and awareness. The national spring clean campaign, which has just been completed and in which Deputy Clune and I participated, and a number of other events will help to make the community more aware of the problem. Litter is a national problem but it is created locally and that is where it must be dealt with. We will not leave any stone unturned in our efforts to ensure the law is enforced. We will not change our culture overnight. We have a lot of work to do and we must do it together.

The national litter pollution monitoring system is being developed to monitor and assist local authority litter management and enforcement and to advise the Department on litter management planning at national level. The system will be fully operational in the next few months. The national spring clean campaign involved people at local level through An Taisce. We must pay tribute to An Taisce for the work it is doing and the awareness it is creating about this problem.

Some local authorities are more proactive than others. I have travelled throughout the country and I am happy with some of the local authorities, from county managers down to the lowest levels, which are proactive in ensuring the law is enforced in conjunction with the educational and awareness campaigns. In reply to parliamentary questions in the Dáil recently I appealed to members of local authorities and of the Houses of the Oireachtas to ensure the management of local authorities carry out its functions in relation to the litter plan which comes before it every year.

This is not only a matter for the Minister and the Department. We must all ensure we play our part in ridding the country once and for all of the litter problem. No one disagrees about the extent of the litter problem but people think it is someone else's problem. However, we all contribute to it. We will continue to ensure local authorities carry out their functions as evenly as possible. We must also ensure everyone participates in ridding the country of this problem.

Education and awareness campaigns are important. We visit schools and communities and we impress on them their responsibilities. If people do not change, we will not solve this problem. We will not leave any stone unturned in our efforts to ensure we carry out our functions. Everyone is responsible for solving this problem. I appeal to members to play their part.

Mr. Dempsey

As regards the points made about the supply of water and the public sewerage schemes, expenditure priorities are based on increasing the proportion of urban waste water being treated to comply with the urban waste water treatment directive, improving the quality of public and group water supply schemes to ensure full compliance with drinking water directives, strengthening the economic infrastructure by providing water for industrial, housing and other such needs, eliminating pollution in so far as possible from rivers and trying to reverse the trend of increasing signs of moderate pollution in rivers which has built up in the past decade, trying to reverse and minimise eutrophication of lakes and protecting water sources.

In the programme the question was asked if this is a new project or if it is refurbishment. There is a mixture of both in it. We are talking about spending more than £1 billion to upgrade and improve the waste water treatment systems in various towns and cities. Dundalk, Drogheda, Ringsend, Wexford, Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford are included in that.

In regard to the standards to which we treat the waste and so on, we are providing the treatment to the standards required under the urban waste water directive. Some 80% of discharges are to coastal waters and do not require tertiary treatment under the directive but coastal sewage treatment plants now being provided have the facility for retrofitting or tertiary treatment. We are providing for it in case standards are tightened at some time in the future and we will need to do that. The question of inland waterways and how they are being polluted is being dealt with as well. The major problem here is agricultural waste and so on. That is why we are adopting the catchment based approach, nutrient management plans, phosphate controls and so on. All of that goes on under this programme.

In relation to environmental awareness, I agree with the Deputy that in the past we have had campaigns which have had little or no effect. The reason we are approaching the campaign in this way is to try to get the message across that we are all responsible for problems. That is not to shirk our responsibility, whether we are Members of the Oireachtas, Ministers in Government or otherwise. We all create this problem and we must all be aware of that. As I said, if we are not part of the solution, we are part of the problem.

What makes this environmental awareness campaign different is that it is not a national campaign using billboards, etc., which I believe merely salves people's consciences. People decide that if the Government is advertising that this is a problem, then it must be its problem and not theirs. We are trying to increase the focus on personal actions by individuals - to do the little things which will make a difference. That is the theme and the focus of the campaign.

It is not only an advertising campaign. We have involved the Agenda 21 officers and the environmental education officers in the local authorities. We are involving the shops and the supermarkets in the next phase of the campaign. Today we will launch a household leaflet to try to further increase the involvement of householders. The campaign is multifaceted but it is focused on individual actions and the responsibilities each of us bear in this matter.

I was disappointed to hear the Deputy say that the only solution people were coming up with in waste management is landfill and incineration. Reading the newspapers, listening to the radio and watching broadcasts on the television, one would get that impression. However, I know the Deputy is aware that integrated waste management solutions are being advocated because Cork is particularly good in this regard. The end will be landfill, thermal treatment or otherwise but nobody in media circles bothers to analyse the rest of the plan. The regional plans in Cork and Dublin have a range of different items laid out, including the civic amenity sites, composting, recycling, etc. The focus at the end of all that - where the heat is generated, if one pardons the pun - is on incineration, landfill or otherwise. One must look at the overall integrated approach local authorities and regional authorities have been trying to adopt.

I plead with the media not only to highlight the fact that landfill must go somewhere, or that a thermal treatment solution is being proposed but to emphasise a little more that recycling, etc. is also included and that what we are talking about is the residue of all of this. We are talking about fairly substantial targets for recycling in each regional waste management plan - somewhere in the region of 45% to 50% in most cases.

In relation to Deputy Gilmore's point, a document was leaked from the US EPA on dioxins. It was not about waste incineration and dioxins but about dioxins and the dangers of them. Dioxins are emitted by incineration, car exhausts, burning rubbish in the back garden, lighting a cigarette and by lighting a fire in the grate. Dioxins are given off all the time. The attempt by some people - I am not referring to Deputy Gilmore but there are others operating in this area - to say this was all about waste incineration and dioxins and the cancer waste incineration will cause was totally dishonest.

Deputy Gilmore asked me a specific question, that is, whether it is Government policy to proceed with the provision of incineration. The Government stated its policy clearly in "Changing our Ways". The implementation of policy is a matter for regional and local authorities. They will make the decision on what they will do in relation to final disposal of waste and waste matter. Government policy is firmly based on the waste management hierarchy - the prevention of waste, the minimisation of waste, the reuse and recycling of waste and, finally, the safe disposal of waste. Safe disposal is a priority for the Government, as it would be for the regional authorities. Directives are in place for both thermal treatment and landfill and I am quite satisfied that whichever route a regional or local authority takes in relation to either of those options, they will comply with the directives and it will be perfectly safe for people. I do not go along with that school of thought that believes waste can be made disappear. We are generating waste and we have to deal with it. It is about time people faced up to that in a mature way.

I said before that we do not have an adequate waste management infrastructure. We certainly do not have an adequate recycling infrastructure. If we do not get the various waste management strategies in place on a regional basis, we will never be able to provide a proper recycling infrastructure because, in most cases, the economies of scale would not allow that. That is why we have encouraged the regional approach to waste management. I have no doubt that over the coming years when the regional waste management strategies are put in place, we will see a huge increase in recycling.

The Deputy is right in that if we continue in this way all we will ever have are "Mickey Mouse" operations in recycling. If we put in place proper waste management strategies, we will be able to substantially increase our recycling targets. In relation to this year's Estimate, just over £5 million has been provided for procurement costs and the development of waste management infrastructure. When the levy is placed on plastic shopping bags as well, I hope to be in a position to use some of the income from that for recycling infrastructure because it is badly needed.

Mr. Gilmore

I would like us to have an opportunity to have a good discussion about the local government fund, how it operates, how it is doing and particularly the increase in money generated by the increased numbers of cars being registered and so on. If it is agreeable, perhaps the Minister would make available to the committee a background paper on the local government fund outlining what money has gone into it, how it has been allocated and what criteria has been used for the allocation of moneys? How much will be left in it? Perhaps he would agree to attend a separate meeting of the committee to discuss the local government fund before we begin to debate the Local Government Bill.

Mr. Dempsey

I am agreeable to that. The Deputy will be aware of what was called the "Galway model" with regard to a distribution for the local government fund. We have had a first cut of that and we intend to make allocations on the basis of the needs and resources of each of the local authorities. It would be useful if the committee met at some stage over the next few weeks. I will attend and I will arrange for somebody to brief the committee on the needs and resources model and the changes in the financial system of the local authorities. It would be useful in the context of the debate on the Local Government Bill. If the members of the committee are willing we could proceed with that over the summer.

Chairman

Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Gilmore

That would be very helpful. It means we do not have to dwell on the issue today.

Chairman

We now move on to subheads F.1 to F.14, relating to other services.

Ms Clune

Is the capital grant for the library service to go towards the provision of new libraries? A number of areas in the country do not have libraries. I am sure we all have our pet project in this regard.

Will the Minister expand on the malicious injuries aspect? I understood local authorities paid compensation from their own funding, although I am sure that does not cover the whole cost involved on a national basis.

A large increase has been allocated to architectural heritage, arising from attempts to meet the requirements of legislation enacted last year. At the time I made the point that a vast number of projects would qualify under the scheme under the architectural, historical and cultural headings. Will the Minister indicate what projects are covered?

Mr. Gilmore

I am surprised to note that the allocation for the planning tribunal for the year 2000, at just over £2 million, is significantly down on the allocation for 1999. Given the work the tribunal has undertaken and the likelihood that the volume of work it is likely to have to deal with will be extensive, I would have thought the allocation to it would have to be increased rather than reduced. Has the Minister any plans to increase the allocation?

Mr. Dempsey

The Deputy may be aware that last year, again in keeping with practice, we are trying to give the local authorities as much discretion as possible to give them a chance to plan in advance. We first wrote to the local authorities and asked them to prioritise their schemes for the library services. Based on that we drew up a three year programme which commenced last year. I am not sure what specific project the Deputy has in mind as a pet project, but if she lets me know I will check where it is on the list if we have received a submission on it from the local authority.

I have an interest in this area and over the last number of years I have increased substantially the provision for libraries on the capital side because it was the Cinderella section in the Department. To encourage the implementation of branching out, we have made substantial funds available. The three year programme will continue and local authorities have the opportunity to add their projects on an annual basis. I can go through the list if the Deputy wishes, and I will check it if she has a specific project in mind.

The provision for malicious injuries provides for recoupment to local authorities of their expenditure on foot of court decrees in respect of malicious damage to property which in the opinion of a Garda superintendent was caused by explosives and attributable to the disturbances in Northern Ireland. It also provides for the recoupment to local authorities on their expenditure on foot of court decrees comprising of compensation awarded and the plaintiff's legal costs in respect of other malicious damage to property in excess of a rate of 20p in the pound, as provided for in the Malicious Injuries Act, 1981. In addition, it provides full recoupment to local authorities in respect of expenditure under the Malicious Injuries (Amendment) Act, 1986. The allocation over the last number of years has been roughly in line, at around £200,000 each year. Expenditure has varied, depending on the court cases. In 1999, £57,000 was paid out of £200,000, so it varies from year to year.

On the question of architectural projects, etc. some of what has been allocated here is in respect of the employment of conservation and architectural heritage officers. The types of projects are basically individual houses. We deal with the public buildings, and have dealt with them, through the Heritage Council and the general conservation grants that are made available. We made money available to a famous church in Cork.

Ms Clune

Was it St. Nicholas?

Mr. Dempsey

Yes.

Ms Clune

Good.

Mr. Dempsey

The allocation to the tribunals is merely an estimate. There is no way of telling at the beginning of the year how much a tribunal will cost. If, as is likely, there is a need for extra funding it will be done by way of a Supplementary Estimate. We will probably have to spend a considerable amount of money over the coming years on the tribunals. There are a number of them under our aegis.

Chairman

Turning to subhead G, appropriations-in-aid, are there any questions? No. That concludes our consideration of the subheads. I now invite brief concluding remarks from the Fine Gael spokesperson.

Ms Clune

A lot of money is being spent, especially on the road schemes and the water treatment plants. Construction costs are very expensive and many of the increases this year will cover that aspect. I thank the Minister for the information he has provided. I hope we have teased out the issues of concern to us.

Chairman

I call the Labour Party spokesperson, Deputy Gilmore, to give a brief concluding remark.

Mr. Gilmore

It is good to see substantial amounts of money available for different areas which come under the Department of the Environment and Local Government. We would all like to see those moneys increased. It is utterly depressing, however, that despite the amount of money available, the Minister and his team have not succeeded in getting on top of the serious problems facing him, particularly the problem of housing. It is a great pity that we have an Administration which cannot deliver on the basis of the considerable amount of money available. The sooner we have a change of Administration the better, in order that the available resources will be managed in a much better and focused way to deliver results for the people and to deliver a solution to the housing crisis.

Mr. Dempsey

I thank the members for their questions and you, Chairman, for your assistance today. I tend to agree with Deputy Dukes, although I do not think he could foresee what was going to happen, that it was not a terribly satisfactory way of dealing with the Estimates because of the interruptions, but that was outside our control.

Members of the Opposition always like to see the glass half empty. Deputy Gilmore has been unfair in his assessment of the performance of the Department and of my colleagues and myself.

A considerable time was spent talking about housing. An attempt may have been made to create the impression that nothing had been done and we sat on our hands over the past three years. That is untrue and unfair. The previous Government seemed to be totally unaware of the problem of house prices. We took more than 50 actions in a range of areas on foot of two reports which we commissioned when we came into office. We are being accused of not taking action and then being attacked for the actions we have taken.

It is easy to say, for instance, as Deputy Gilmore said, that reducing capital gains tax on development land to 20% will provide a windfall for the speculators, etc. The reason that move was made was to try to release land for development purposes to provide houses for the people so badly in need of them.

I acknowledge support from Deputy Gilmore on the Planning and Development Bill, 1999, but it was attacked by other people as being unconstitutional. Yet some of the same people are now advocating that we just confiscate land at agricultural value willy-nilly around the place. That would be a recipe for an unconstitutional action and would set back the provision of housing for several years.

Although this is a political point it needs to be made publicly, particularly to Deputy Gilmore. I do not doubt Deputy Gilmore's commitment to trying to ensure that house prices fall and houses are provided for people on middle and low incomes, but the concern he shows which I share is not shared by his colleagues on local authorities who are opposing area action plans left, right and centre. In one case they will not even let it go beyond the area council. The Deputy will be aware of that aspect of it. I appeal to him as the Labour Party spokesperson on the Environment and Local Government, as the person who most often speaks on behalf of the Labour Party in this House and outside about house prices and about the need to bring them back to within the range of middle income people, and who is correct to do so, to talk to his party's local public representatives and councillors around the country and ask them to stop delaying various actions which are being attempted by local authorities to provide the houses for the very people for whom he is fighting here at national level. I say that sincerely to Deputy Gilmore and the Labour Party at national level. One cannot have two policies, one at national level seeking the provision of extra houses and the other at local level blocking them at every hand's turn. If necessary, I can give chapter and verse from around the country in that regard.

The Department has a large budget which is being spent well. There are places where we can improve and we will try to improve our performance. I am in no doubt that at the end of the term of the Government we will have delivered a huge improvement in quality of life generally.