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Select Committee on Finance and General Affairs debate -
Friday, 24 May 1996

Estimates 1996:

Vote 1 — President’s Establishment.
Vote 2: Houses of the Oireachtas and the European Parliament.
Vote 6: Office of the Minister for Finance.
Vote 7: Super-annuation and Retired Allowances.
Vote 8: Comptroller and Auditor General.
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners.
Vote 11: State Laboratory.
Vote 12: Secret Service.
Vote 13: Office of the Attorney General.
Vote 14: Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions.
Vote 15: Valuation and Ordnance Survey.
Vote 16: Civil Service Commission.
Vote 17: Office of the Ombudsman.
Vote 45: Increases in Remuneration and Pensions.

The committee will deal today with Estimates for the public service for the year ending 31 December 1996. The only public business before the committee today consists of consideration of the sums proposed to be granted to Departments and Offices in what is termed the Finance group. Due to a prior engagement of the Minister, it will be necessary to conclude consideration of the Estimates not later than 1.30 p.m. today. At that point the committee can decide to resume consideration of the Finance group of Estimates at a future meeting or proceed to consider a draft report on the Estimates and the remaining items on the agenda.

In view of the limited time available, I suggest the usual opening statements should be dispensed with and the committee proceed to consider the Estimates individually and Members may raise specific queries with the Minister who may wish to bring points to the committee's attention. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I am happy with the procedure outlined by the Chairman. In view of the time constraint, I understand the Chairman wishes to proceed by taking questions as Deputies pose them. Do I take it the Chairman wishes to proceed seriatimthrough the various Votes?

Yes, we will take Vote 1, President's Establishment, first.

A number of the subheads come within the responsibilities of other Ministers and other Opposition spokespersons. Spokespersons in the relevant areas might have more to say about various subheads and, perhaps, this point could be noted for future Estimates meetings. Perhaps other spokespersons could be invited to deal with particular items, such as the Office of the Attorney General.

I would have no problem with that in future. It is a matter for the committee to so advise. The Secret Service obviously is a secret about which I cannot speak, and by common consent the President's Establishment has not been debated in the House, particularly issues relating to the activities of the President. The Houses of the Oireachtas and the European Parliament by and large come within the overall ambit of the Department of Finance. The Votes include the Revenue Commissioners and the Office of the Attorney General, in so far as they is relate to the activity of Government, and, by extension, the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions. The Valuation and Ordnance Survey offices have been part of the Finance group of Votes for some time. The entire personnel function of the Civil Service comes properly within the remit of the Department of the Public Service, now subsumed into the Department of Finance.

I wish to notify the Chairman that my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Coveney, will take the separate set of Votes for the Office of Public Works.

I note there is a 46 per cent increase in the centenarians bounty. Is this because more people are living to 100 years of age?

I presume so.

It was also increased.

It was increased to £300.

That was the only aspect of the Vote I intended to mention. Until I read the information I did not know the bounty is only given if the person's circumstances are such that a monetary gift from the President would be appropriate and acceptable. I thought it was automatic that anybody who reached the ripe old age of 100 years received this deontas from the State. However, this does not appear to be the case.

I am not sure the Deputy or I will live to receive it.

Neither the Minister nor I can have odds that we will not.

The payment of bounty is virtually automatic; it is not disputed.

By how much was it increased?

From £250 to £300.

Could we not break ourselves and make it £1,000 in the future?

Why would it not be automatic?

I need to take advice, but, for example, somebody who won the jackpot in the national lottery would obviously be a wealthy person. I suspect the President's office must be notified of the existence of the centenarian in the first place.

Irrespective of what a person has, if he or she reached 100 years of age, they are entitled to receive £300, or more.

I have had the pleasure on one occasion only of presenting the deontas and it was a greater experience for me than for the woman concerned. I agree with Deputy Connaughton that the proviso should be deleted. Given the amount involved, once a person reaches 100 years of age it should be paid automatically. It remained at £100 for a long time and should be increased to a realistic figure, say, £1,000, to make it worthwhile. I did not know that there were any conditions, I thought it was paid automatically.

I am informed that the Department of Social Welfare has the data on file. When it becomes known that a person is approaching 100 years of age discreet inquiries are made in the relevant local social welfare office. To answer Deputy Connaughton's question, it may well be the case that the person concerned is not very well. Account is taken of the normal sensitivities before any approach is made.

Is Vote 1 noted and approved? Agreed. We now proceed to Vote 2 — Houses of the Oireachtas and the European Parliament — which is a Revised Estimate.

Under subhead A3 — incidental expenses — there is a huge increase of 128 per cent. What is the reason for an increase of such magnitude?

I am informed that a sum of £275,000 has been included for conferences during Ireland's Presidency of the European Union. This is a once-off provision. If the Deputy wishes, I can give him additional details.

It was obvious that it was a once-off provision.

We have also increased the budget, from £60,000 in 1995 to £200,000 this year, for the activities of the public relations officer and the provision of information pertaining to the operation of Leinster House. Deputies will have already seen some of the literature.

It was urgently needed. I am in total agreement.

They are the two main reasons the figure under subhead A3 has been increased by 128 per cent.

Traditionally, this is the Vote parliamentarians on all sides of the House are reluctant to discuss as it relates to their own affairs. Irrespective of whether it is discussed, the information will be published in a newspaper that the telephone allowances or expenses of parliamentarians have been increased by an extraordinary sum and we will be denigrated more than usual. I have no hesitation in raising questions because if we are to be blamed, we might as well gain the benefits.

In the original Estimate the Minister provided for an increase in expenses and overnight allowances. This is one of the reasons given in notes (c) and (d) for the increase in the Vote, but nothing has happened. We have, however, received a bad press. Newspapers have to be sold in order to make profits. It has been deemed that a handy way of selling additional newspapers is to pillory Deputies and suggest they are living in grandeur and making a fortune in Leinster House. We have accepted this for a long time and laid down under the onslaught.

Successive Governments have not had the courage to pay parliamentarians their proper due. Whenever pressure was exerted we caved in and suspended the payment of increases. We did not, however, receive any credit for this. When we eventually granted ourselves an increase, we were blamed once more. This is a nonsensical way to do business. Can anyone prove to me that Deputies gain more respect by doing business in this fashion? As a professional person, I have yet to meet anyone who has gone to the cheapest doctor or accountant in the town. The opposite is often the case. If parliamentarians think that paying themselves as little as possible is a great way to attract publicity and curry favour with certain media people, it has not worked.

I have no hesitation in saying we are badly paid and should be paid more. To be fair to the Minister, he took his courage in his hands and provided for an increase in the original Estimate, but nothing has happened. On the grounds that we will be blamed my colleagues and I would like to receive our cheques. Will the Minister offer us an explanation?

Up to about ten days ago the Deputy's observation would have been accurate. In relation to the administrative procedures, there was a difficulty about the interpretation of travel on a Thursday night in particular. This was the subject of discussion between the Attorney General's office and my Department. I am in a position to confirm that the necessary arrangements have been completed and the necessary legal provisions have been made. I gather the money is being paid.

My colleagues will be delighted and excited.

Except those who come from Dublin.

I wish to refer to the standard of accommodation provided for Members of the House. I hope this matter is relevant. I have no wish to complain, but the accommodation provided — several of my colleagues on different floors are also affected — would not be on a par with the accommodation provided in other employments. There is overcrowding and the workspace is inadequate. In addition, the office furniture provided is highly uncomfortable. Last summer when the heat was oppressive we were unable to obtain fans. It is either too hot or too cold in the House. I ask the Minister to look into this matter as there is no comparison between the conditions under which officers of the House and elected Members have to work.

I share the Deputy's concern. As he may be aware, we have made arrangements with the Office of Public Works to increase and improve the accommodation provided in the Houses of the Oireachtas by acquiring Agriculture House. The Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry within a minimum of two years will transfer a substantial portion of its functions and accommodation to Johnstown Castle, County Wexford, which is adjacent to the Employment Protection Agency. Agriculture House, which is on the Leinster House side of Kildare Street and which is in the curtilage of this building, will be incorporated into the Houses of the Oireachtas. Much of the accommodation in the old Setanta building, known as Kildare House, will be taken back for civil service purposes. Deputies, Senators and related Oireachtas staff will be on this side of the road. We will be able to ensure that connections to Agriculture House will be facilitated within the system, so security will be simplified.

There is ample provision for all the anticipated needs of the Houses of the Oireachtas. An elaborate and attractive design proposal was undertaken by the former Minister of State, Deputy Dempsey, but its implementation would have been extraordinarily disruptive. It is felt the option outlined is better and more cost effective. Subject to the decentralisation of Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry staff to Johnstown Castle, that space will become available. It is a point which would perhaps be more appropriate to the Office of Public Works Vote. The Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Coveney, will be able to answer that. From memory, I believe we are talking about a minimum of two and a half years before that accommodation will be available. I am afraid Deputy Connor will have to get re-elected to avail of the benefits.

It looks like it.

As Deputy McCreevy said, there will be sections which will attract adverse publicity. However, the question of the support services available to TDs needs further examination. If any of the Minister's officials had to work with the technology and the facilities with which I, as a TD, must, it would not be tolerated. I ask the Minister to look at research facilities available to Deputies to see if it will be possible to do something in the coming years. If we are expected to speak on Bills, to perform competently and to be on top of the range of legislation coming before the House, this issue must be looked at.

While I welcome the development of the committee system, costs have gone up. The committees need to be re-examined in terms of overlap and streamlining the work we do. We must review how the committees have worked to date. Research within the committees is an area which will develop further. We should give a commitment to maintain and to develop further support for research. It is often recognised that parliaments are slow to change procedures and that business moves at a faster pace. However, the development of the committee system is a key part of this. We must look at appropriate services to ensure the committees work properly.

If we, as legislators, are to have the type of information we require to discuss education or finance Estimates and to make the best use of the information given to us by officials, we must have backup to ensure we can work effectively. I will be interested in the Minister's comments on how he sees these areas being supported by the Department of Finance in the coming years.

This committee has had to cancel or defer several meetings because of lack of staff. Some meetings, including this one, could have been cancelled because of staff pressures. The crisis in staffing needs has not been highlighted. Although we have a new committee system, we have not provided the staff. There are always demands for extra staff, but this committee is kept going by the extraordinary efforts of the Clerk and me — I say that without cribbing. We are surviving until the recess. Committees are not being given the attention they should be given. I ask the Minister to take on board the urgent question of staffing.

I share Deputy Fitzgerald's concern. In my experience part of the problem about extra research facilities is that for it to be most effective from a Deputy's view point, the researcher needs to work directly with that Deputy. Frequently, one does not get much notice of a topic on which one is asked to speak. If there was adequate physical accommodation for Deputies in their offices, an additional bench or desk could be found.

There is an array of graduate and undergraduate students in our third level institutions who are tuned in to do task orientated research and who want the experience of working in a parliamentary system for a short period. In many cases, these students may be political activists. They could better serve Deputies and Senators needs than a permanent staff of researchers who would be assigned to the Library. There is a need to enhance that capability. The resource base of the Library should itself be enhanced which would require permanent staff.

In terms of extending the capability of an Oireachtas Member to do his or her job and making the infrastructure capable of taking in more people — some Deputies may have access to American research graduate students — we are debarred or prevented from bringing in people because of space and security constraints. Many students would be happy to do research related work during the course of their studies. This is a matter not so much for the Department of Finance in that the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and the parties in the House have a role to play. One way of providing the extension of facilities for Deputies would be to enlarge the physical infrastructure of the premises so space could be made available and to ensure that those people had access to the library and the other data available in Leinster House.

Deputy Fitzgerald would be surprised to learn that some of the physical working conditions of people in the Department of Finance are far less acceptable and quite substandard. I have engaged in some upgrading of accommodation in the Department. There was a tradition that to encourage other Departments, the Department of Finance pauperised itself, but it did not have the effect of dampening the enthusiasm for better housing for other Departments. The Department of Finance and the former Department of the Public Service remained pauperised, but that is now being addressed. The Deputy would be erroneous to believe that accommodation in my Department was salubrious in contrast to that of ——

I was not suggesting that; I was making the point that there is a problem. I take the Minister's point that we could develop the links with the universities more than we have done. There is a basic problem with accommodation. Even if a student offers to work, it is difficult to get space for him or her.

Since we are being open, transparent and accountable there are security implications in a great number of people coming into the House. Sadly, the security arrangements of the House have had to be tightened up in the past 15 to 20 years, certainly since Deputy McCreevy, the Chairman and I came in here. If accommodation facilities are enlarged and enhanced, it would address that issue. It would be a far more cost effective way of delivering the type of research Deputies require than hiring additional staff.

The Chairman raised a separate question on the staffing of the committees. I am aware of that and I met the Chairmen of a number of committees. It is being looked at in the context of the new numbers policy we are introducing in all Departments in place of the embargo, which has now been changed.

We might as well suspend the committee system or reduce the number of committees if we are not given staff. We should not be expect to come back after the recess without that question having been comprehensively addressed. We are fire fighting at present.

I note that the televising of the proceedings of the Dáil and Seanad cost almost £1.5 million. Is that a gross or a net figure? Income from this amounts to £178,000. Is that the sum total of the income received from televising the Dáil? One reads in today's newspaper that the Ceann Comhairle is now an international television figure so somebody must be making a few shillings from selling snippets of Dáil proceedings to Sky TV or whoever is foolish enough to pay for them. What is the position in that regard? Is £178,000 the total income earned from televising the Dáil? If that is the case, somebody is getting excellent value for money when we hear Telefís na Gaeilge will cost us £20 million. With Question Time and Oireachtas Report approximately two hours of Dáil and Seanad proceedings are being broadcast every day.

Is the Deputy criticising that too?

Are we locked into a long-term deal with RTE and, if so, what is the period of the contract?

Football certainly sells better.

Why can we not do the same?

To answer the Deputy's question, the net receipts are £178,000 of which £165,000 is the contract sum with RTE, the balance being made up by commission funds from various services. If Deputies could improve their performances, perhaps we might be able to sell more footage.

Are we locked into a long-term deal?

The contract with RTE will come up for renewal but the other services are not subject to fixed contracts, as I understand it. I will get confirmation on that in a few minutes.

Is the contract with RTE? I thought it was with another company.

We have a contract with an outside company that won in open tender. In regard to the provision of taping and recording all of the proceedings of Leinster House, we receive a fee of £165,000 for the tape we supply to RTE which it uses in national broadcasting, news services and related matters.

I notice there is a reduction in regard to computer and data preparation equipment and related items of training for Members and staff of the Houses. By the year 2000 there is likely to be a problem with many of the computer systems which will be unable to cope with the change from the year 1999 to 2000. Has the Department any plans to update computer equipment so that this problem can be resolved by the year 2000?

There is an ongoing programme but the life of some of this machinery is between three to five years so if it is expended in a particular year there is a period of grace, so to speak. That would explain the reduction this year. We are examining the overall position but Leinster House would have to make the request, in the course of its Estimate submissions, for upgrading of machinery and information technology equipment.

This matter does not relate directly to the updating of equipment. I will raise it at another stage.

I raised the question of the printing and publication of the Official Report with the Minister of State during last year's debate on the Estimates. As Members know, the unrevised Official Report is published daily and eventually put into bound volumes. In my early days as a Member of this House the bound volumes were produced regularly. I inquired about this matter last year and I understand we are nearly ten years behind in the publication of the bound volumes; the last bound volume published was for 1987. That is unbelievable.

I made a case to the Minister for State last year that in the preparation of the 1996 Estimates an additional sum of money should be included. I understand from investigation that all of the work has been done and it is simply a matter of having the volumes bound and printed. I suggest that over a period of two years we could bring this work up to date.

In all other parliaments of the world, including the UK, bound volumes of debates are available. If I wanted to know today what Deputy Frances Fitzgerald said in the Dáil on any issue since she became a Member of this House, I would not be able to do so. I would have to go to the trouble of checking the unrevised daily edition of the Official Report which would involve a lot of work because it is not indexed. Some Members of this House have never seen the bound volumes of the Official Report. The bound volumes have an index which is convenient if one wishes to read the contributions of particular Members on various issues.

I understand it would cost a sum of money to print the bound volumes but the Department of Finance has resisted any increase in this particular Estimate despite the fact that I raised this matter last year with the Minister of State. If this money was made available the work involved in publishing the bound volumes could be done over a period of two years. If that is not done we will be a decade behind in the printing of the bound volumes.

Some former Members of the House and relatives of former Members are very proud of their contributions. I have seen the bound volumes of the Official Report on display in various places but Members elected to this House since 1987 do not have access to bound volumes of their contributions because they are not available. Having raised this question last year, it is unacceptable that no effort has been made in this regard by the Department of Finance despite an undertaking by the Minister of State that it would be done. That is the reason I raise the matter now with the Minister.

Let us examine the cost involved in this work. A bound volume of the Dáil Official Report costs £30,000 and £20,000 for the Seanad Official Report. The total cost of bringing the volumes up to date at current contract price is estimated to be approximately £2 million. There were staff shortages in the past and there has also been work in relation to transferring the printing process to new technology. In one sense I would welcome the idea of bound volumes being made available as they were in the past — the Deputy is correct in that regard — but I am not sure that such a sum of money would be high on a list of priorities.

In the course of the past year we have been trying to find an alternative way of ensuring Deputies can read the first contributions they made in this House, not necessarily through the medieval system of the Gutenberg press with rain forest material wrapped in animal leather and embossed with a toxic ink but through the more technologically friendly and far more cost effective system of a CD-ROM. From a research point of view there may be a psychical attractiveness in having a set of bound editions of the Official Report, but at £30,000 per volume we would have to be in a position to justify their production. Technology has now given us another option.

Since 1994 the Official Report has been on disc format. We have a problem with material prior to 1994 and that backlog will probably have to be addressed in due course. We are currently negotiating with our printers, with whom we have a contract, for a reduction in their price. Post-1994 it is possible to have this material presented in a CD ROM format and I would respectfully suggest that is the way forward in regard to storing archival material. It is more cost effective and efficient. Given the indexing and scanning systems that are increasingly coming into existence and which will become more sophisticated, one can use that format to scan the documentation into CD-ROM format and pick out, for example, references to the environment or Cavan/Monaghan etc. without having to plough one's way through a long speech.

I have no difficulty with that being the system of the future. I have no doubt that the problem arose because of the pressure being put on the departmental Estimates. I am all for having modern technology and scanning the material into CD-ROM format for the future. However, with the utmost respect, it is not good enough that we must go back ten years to get a bound record of what Deputies said and what debates took place on a variety of issues in this House. It is a little like the analogy the Minister made about the Department of Finance, for example, having deplorable accommodation to dampen down the heightened expectations of other Departments. It singularly failed, despite its best efforts in this regard. I am glad the present Minister has done something about improving its present accommodation.

This was an easy area to cut back on but it was a stupid thing to do. If I wanted to find out what Deputy Charlie Haughey said as Taoiseach in 1988 or what Deputy Garret Fitzgerald said to him in reply, I would not be able to do so. However, I could find out in the Oireachtas Library what Deputy John A. Costello said to Deputy Eamón de Valera in 1948 or 1949 if I so wished.

While I am all for modern technology — I have used it in my practice for many years — a certain amount of our heritage should be preserved. The Oireachtas Library should at least have the bound volumes of the Oireachtas debates. What is the point in having a large number of staff taking down the spoken word, checking and proof reading it, printing it, putting it in green volumes, having stacks of these volumes all over the place and getting other officials to make them ready for bound volumes and having the revised and unrevised versions, involving thousands of man hours and millions of pounds over a period of time, if we do not make use of it and take the final step? A person could not run a business like that. If he did, he would be broke.

The cost of doing this will be higher next year. This short term saving of pennies is losing millions of pounds in the long term. Having spent these millions of pounds in compiling the Official Report, why not take this final step and bring it up to date by the end of 1998? It is a reasonable proposal and it would not cost the State a lot of money to do it.

I am not averse to the proposals made by the Deputy. We are still in the course of negotiating with our printers about reducing costs in clearing the backlog. There is a commitment in principle, which I reaffirm here, to clear the backlog.

Put it out to tender like everybody else. I know many printers who will do it.

This is part of an existing contract. Our printers have the contract for printing the green volumes and it is a question of transposing those corrected versions into bound volume format. Under the terms of the existing contract, we would not be able to unilaterally put the second section to tender. Substantial savings have been made in the format currently being utilised and the way in which contributions are being transferred from disk to the printed form. That, of course, also makes it much easier to make final corrections, if necessary.

I support the proposal that this backlog should be cleared as quickly as possible. It is a matter for the Houses of the Oireachtas to prioritise this in its Vote and we will respond and assist it in this regard. I share the Deputy's view that a hard copy should be available in printed form up to the present time. The print run is a matter for discussion but it should be available in addition to being on CD-ROM.

I am glad the Minister has given me this information because I did not get that when I asked about this matter last year. Now that I know it is available on CD-ROM, have any of my colleagues ever got a copy on that format since 1994?

It is not yet available on CD-ROM. It is capable of being made available on this format. We are currently exploring and examining this option.

There is huge scope for savings here. This House is a paper factory. We get copies of everything we do not need. All we want is a list of available documents. We do not need green volumes of yesterday's proceedings but only need to be told it is available in the Oireachtas Library. Every Member gets a copy of the proceedings, which in most cases goes straight into the bin. It is the same with annual reports of State companies, amendments to and copies of Bills, amendments to amendments of Bills etc. A list should be provided, perhaps twice a day, stating what is available in the Oireachtas Library if a Member wants a copy rather than sending everyone copies in large brown envelopes. It is extraordinarily wasteful. If we did this, we could save the money needed to pay for the necessary records to which Deputy McCreevy referred.

The Government has recently put much of its current documentation on the Internet. There is no reason in principle why what the Deputy is proposing could not be put up on screen. People would have access to it and could get a paper copy of the relevant section for quotation purposes if they had a local printer.

While this Vote is grouped within the family of Votes for the Department of Finance, the decisions and proposals we are discussing must first come from the Houses of the Oireachtas. While my points indicate my personal sympathy, I cannot unilaterally make these proposals to it. It would be for the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and the relevant committees to come forward on this matter.

I share your view, Sir, about the amount of paper wastage and costs being incurred. New technology may give a person the opportunity to do additional tasks but nobody ever stops doing the old ones that have become redundant as a result of this new technology, and this practice is endemic across the public service. It may very well be the case that this kind of circulation of paper material could be seriously curtailed, resulting in considerable savings which could be redeployed within the Houses of the Oireachtas Vote.

It is necessary nowadays to keep the green copies of the Dáil debates because we do not have a bound copy to refer back to when we want to find out what, for example, Deputy Quinn said as Minister for Finance on a certain date.

An inordinate amount of paper is generated by this House. However, the Department of Finance decides the headings in the Estimates. It has overall control over the headings of the Votes we are discussing today, including those for the Houses of the Oireachtas. This matter is one of the subheads. The official in charge of the Houses of the Oireachtas Vote may put forward a case every year to bring the bound volumes up to date but the cost is so much that an official in the Department of Finance will cut it back. That is how the system works in other Departments and I am sure it is the same here.

I propose to the Minister, as I proposed to the Minister of State last year, that we make an agreement that the bound volumes be brought up to date by a certain date. Last year I thought some effort would be made because the Minister of State was sympathetic as is the Minister. He was not flanked by the number of advisers and officials we have today, but somebody close to the Minister must be responsible for this vote. I want the bound volumes brought up to date. As Deputy Mitchell said, thousands of documents are produced every day. All the work is done and it is only a matter of putting it together. As I understand it, all that remains to be done is to finalise costs with the printer. So far as I can see we get a good service from the printers we have engaged. Can we say it will be done over a three year financial programme — 1996, 1997 and 1998?

I suggest we draw the attention of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges to this discussion——

——and our anxiety that more emphasis be put on modernising the forms of communication within the Houses of the Oireachtas and bringing the records up-to-date. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Under subhead C, I note an increase from £4,000 to £7,000 for expenses to the Western European Union. Is it anticipated there will be more meetings of the Western European Union? What is the significance of that increase?

We have observer status at the Western European Union. I understand the additional sums of money may provide for additional travelling costs.

We are talking about nominal sums. Is the Vote agreed? Agreed.

We come to the Vote for the Office of the Minister. I suggest we refer it to the Minister's circulated script and have a brief question and answer session on the economic indicators before moving on to the Estimate. In respect of the current year the Minister in his release said revenue is living up to expectations. Is it doing any more than that?

It is probably too early to be definitive because we have not completed month five. All the indications are that sales receipts, VAT and, particularly, sales of motor cars are up considerably on last year, which in turn were up considerably on the previous year. I hesitate to give positive indications because there could be downturns later in the year and people would spend money we have not yet got. The indications are that across all the revenue sources there is considerable strength and buoyancy and there is not any signal that would lead us to have reason for alarm or concern.

Can we take it also that expenditure is being kept within the parameters laid down?

There are some emerging overruns. In ten days time at a Government meeting I will discuss a review of the position with my colleagues. Some of the overruns are demand led and are much more difficult to anticipate or to measure in advance. Others are anticipated, for example the amount of money required for the agricultural fines which has been finally agreed with the Commission in Brussels. A provision of £50 million had been given in the non-programme outlays capital account for two years to cover the fines. That will now be transferred into the Estimates figure. There will be a saving of £50 million on the non-programme outlays side but there will be an increase of £50 million plus £22 million, making a total of £72 million.

If there are overruns under some headings will there be savings in others?

I met the secretaries of all Government Departments on 16 May 1996 and drew their attention to an accountancy reporting mechanism I have reactivated and reinforced. On the tenth day of every month, following the month in question, the Departments are required to communicate cash flow account reports. It is our intention to develop that in order to have a system whereby emerging savings, as well as emerging overruns, are notified quickly and effectively so that we can take whatever action is necessary and start to veer money around. That system existed in an earlier format but in many cases observance of it had lapsed. I have now made the secretary and the Minister of the Department responsible, as a line Department, to ensure the maximum information is collected and reported to the Department of Finance. In some cases the practice was uneven. I suspect Deputy McCreevy and Deputy O'Hanlon who were in different Departments may not necessarily have been aware that such a reporting mechanism was in place and certainly it was not brought to their attention in the past. The practice was different in different Departments. One was only informed of emerging overruns and some Departments were very poor at reporting back in a timely manner. The tenth day of the month was observed more in the breach than in the honouring of it. We are not doing anything different from what would be done in any medium sized enterprise. Our intention is to get sharp up to date cash expenditure information.

In the Budget Statement the Minister provided for a fairly modest budget deficit. The expectation was that with buoyancy that may turn into a surplus. Is there still a prospect that we may have a budget surplus?

It is too early to say. Revenue projections have been increased relative to previous years but some commentators would argue they are on the modest side. My main concern is to maintain expenditure levels at the figure set on budget day, £12,087 million on the non-capital supply services side. There is an accountancy overrun of £50 million because we are taking that amount from the non-programme outlays as well as the beef fines. We have not yet incorporated the social welfare Christmas bonus provision formally into the Estimates. We will have to deal with it on a regular basis and write it into the Estimates. It is a nonsense that we make this formal decision, as Christmas bonuses have been paid since the mid-1980s if not earlier.

Members of the Committee have just been to New Zealand where people were alarmed at the lack of progress in reducing overall borrowing. The national debt is only down to 25 per cent. New Zealand has eliminated completely its foreign debt. Progress has been made on our national debt but it is still way short of 60 per cent and considerably short of countries such as New Zealand.

The outturn for this year will reduce our national debt to 81 per cent from 115 per cent in 1986-87. It is still too high.

I refer to the property market and the danger of overheating in a few years time, as happened in the United Kingdom, and the possibility that people could end up with negative equity. Are there any steps the Minister can take to discourage excessive inflation in the property market?

The Central Bank which is an independent organisation has, I understand——

The Minister could double RPT.

I have been informed that one of the reasons it was increased in 1984 was to try to dampen down the fear of an increase in property values. The Central Bank has expressed concerns to the lending institutions and the banks about prudential lending policies. The problem that arose in the United Kingdom was twofold. There was a bubble in the property market fuelled in part be imprudential lending policies adopted by different institutions in competition with one another. People got up to 100 per cent loans. The classic ratio for such lending is 2.5, or a maximum of three times one's salary and a maximum of 90 to 95 per cent of a loan. When the maximum was 75 per cent lending institutions assumed the borrower would be well able to service the mortgage repayments. Because of competition in the UK, those traditional benchmarks and rule of thumb lending guidelines were thrown out in Nigel Lawson's time, with disastrous consequences. They still suffer from negative equity problems in the United Kingdom.

I would be concerned that the very low rates of interest now on offer plus the very low level of deposit rate interest and low inflation would encourage financial institutions to move their product, which is money. They have to move it to get a return on it. Consequently, because of substantial market competition some imprudential policies could be engaged in, and that can only end in tears. We have evidence of this in respect of agricultural land prices. There is no doubt this will end in tears and the most vulnerable will be hit first. We are keeping the question under review. One way to address the problem would be, as Deputy McDowell suggested, to lower the RPT thresholds and increase the rates.

The Minister could consider that in the context of his own constituency.

That is one way of addressing the problem, what are the others?

Without being facetious, we are concerned about this matter.

In recent weeks properties were sold for prices greatly in excess of even high reserved prices. We should be concerned about this.

Why are the income and expenditure and current budget deficit figures for the first quarter of this year greatly in excess of those for the same period last year? I know it is dangerous to extrapolate the outturn for the full year from those figures, but are there specific reasons for that?

I will try to get the Deputy exact information. First quarter figures can be dramatically altered by late EU receipts, moneys due at the end of December. The European Commission is not as efficient as one might imagine in terms of remitting moneys and, occasionally, moneys due in the last quarter of one year do not arrive until the first quarter of the following year. That can alter projections. I do not have information on the components that gave rise to the difference between the returns for the first quarter of this year and the same period last year.

If I recall correctly, EU receipts of £100 million for 1994 were not received until early in 1995. I would not suggest they were delayed to alter the 1995 figures vis-�-vis 1994. I am certain officials in the Department of Finance would not consider doing such a thing. It transpired there was a budget surplus of £15 million which, I am sure, was purely accidental. Apart from the £100 million, there must be other reasons the current budget deficit was so out of line with the 1995 figures, particularly having regard to the £130 million for 1994 which, miraculously, did not arrive until the first week of January 1995.

The Deputy will recall that due to the management of the economy under the present Administration there was an unprecedented boom in spending during the Christmas period. The VAT receipts associated with that would not come into effect until the first quarter of the following year. The car scrapping scheme has been a terrific success and many people would have held off buying a car until 1996. That significantly enhanced VAT receipts and would be a contributing factor. I apologise for not having the information sought by the Deputy.

The Department referred to this phenomenon as "smoothing movements". Is this prudent cash flow management or manipulation of the books? Is it something about which we as a committee overseeing Estimates should be concerned?

They would never do such a thing.

Adherence to the general Government deficit is effectively leading to an accruals-type accountancy. While it is not full accruals accountancy, it is certainly much more so than the current cash based system. In the past cash flow could be manipulated to reduce the Exchequer borrowing requirement, but that facility is diminishing fairly rapidly. While I am not technically competent in this area, I expect there is a desire to smooth cash flow to eliminate lumps and bumps, but the possibility of manipulating cash flow to present an untrue picture is diminishing because of the accruals based nature of the EU requirement for us to clearly demonstrate and report liabilities in a more explicit manner than merely in cash-in and cash-out flows. I expect in time that will intensify rather than diminish.

A labour force survey, reported in today's newspapers, suggests an even wider divergence between what it records and that recorded by the employment register. What steps have been taken to bring the unemployment register into line with that survey? Are there acceptable honest explanations for such a wide variation or do we accept that many people, who are not entitled to, claim unemployment assistance?

This is a complex area. They are both accurate but give us different information. People signing on the live register do so because they are entitled to do so. Social welfare officers make inquires and so on to determine if people are entitled to what they claim. When we introduced an equality provision that enabled, say, an unemployed husband to claim on behalf of himself and his dependent spouse, the spouse was given the right to sign on in her own right and receive a separate payment.

Speaking from memory, some 7,000 couples on the live register became 14,000 signees on the live register without any other impact on the marketplace.

The live register would include people who, for whatever reason, consider they will never be able to obtain a job again — sad as that may appear — and who therefore do not consider themselves to be looking for work, even though the test of availability for work remains.

The annual Labour Force Survey has been undertaken since the mid-1970s. A note which I will arrange to have circulated will confirm and elaborate on some of the points I am making. That survey covers 45,000 households. As Members will know, the average opinion poll sample here is between 1,500 and 2,000. This Labour Force Survey is a very extensive document in terms of its informational content. It is conducted annually in the springtime and published in the month of September or thereabouts. It is statistically arranged and conducted in accordance with international standards, including those laid down by EUROSTAT and the ILO. Its interviewees are invited to describe themselves as at work, looking for work or out of work. In 1985 or 1986 there had been little or no divergence, 1% only, between the live register figures and those contained in the Labour Force Survey, but since then that divergence has grown considerably.

For some time past, with the assistance of the Department of Social Welfare, we have been endeavouring to ascertain the reason for that divergence, the present gap being of the order of 80,000. Clearly this divergence is worrying, raising questions as to whether some people on the live register are drawing assistance while working.

It also raises questions about the black economy. There is an article on the front page of The Examiner today about a company in Cork, referring to the close proximity between what a worker can earn in a transport company and obtain on the live register. Many of us would agree this problem is compounded by our taxation levels. Given that divergence of approximately 80,000 which arose over the past ten years, clearly there is a problem.

I have anecdotal evidence of that. I was dealing with a case this week of a family with four children, involving the transfer of property. All four of them were working but none legitimately. All had a sufficient income to obtain a loan on the property but none was eligible because their employment was not recorded. Members will know that that is not a unique occurrence in any constituency.

I have raised on a number of occasions the divergence between the figures appearing on the live register and those in the Labour Force Survey. There should be no such divergence and I suggested that there is a way out. The computerisation of the Department of Social Welfare was up and running before most other Departments even contemplated purchasing a personal computer; it has the most sophisticated technology. With the application of RSI numbers it should be possible to ascertain where, when and how, what categories of people are signing on, etc.

As I said at a committee meeting in Kildare House, to suggest that a survey could be more accurate than a physical signing on belies common sense. It would be similar to saying we will not hold an election in 1997 but we will stand at the top of Grafton Street and conduct a survey of people passing to find out what percentage will vote for which party. In the past some eminent commentators——

I would be happy with the Grafton Street location.

——have been persuaded that a survey could be more accurate than an actual signing on. Perhaps that is an indication of the general level of schooling or the intelligence level of certain commentators. How could a survey be more accurate than a signing on?

The 280,000 people who sign on the live register exist. Their names and addresses are indicated. The inference that a Labour Force Survey is more accurate than a physical signing on is an insult to our intelligence. It could not be the case.

Having been Minister for Social Welfare I know that, if the will exists, it is possible not alone to ascertain the names and addresses of the 280,000 unemployed but, with a little effort, to ascertain their educational background, former employers, trades and skills. We would also incorporate the community supplementary welfare service. It is possible to do so. I appeal to the Minister and his Department — who I know are very interested in this subject — to do so because there should be no such divergence. Since the figures published today show a divergence of 80,000, it is astonishing that the relevant records cannot be integrated, using the RSI numbers. If the political will exists, it can be done.

I want to ascertain from the Minister the overall performance of our economy and the manner in which its fruits are being deployed. The Minister is eulogised in the Economist,American newspapers and the world press but is it not fair to say that much of that 6 to 8 per cent growth has not percolated to the more deprived sectors within all our constituencies, particularly those in the low-paid private sector who continue to struggle desperately while the rest of us drive around in 1996-registered cars?

The Programme for National Recovery,the Programme for Economic and Social Progress and the Programme for Competitiveness and Work ensured economic stability and also delivered the basic parameters within which the Minister and his Department could maintain the macro-economic picture in such good order. However, they did not deliver benefits for the 20% who are most deprived. Would the Minister agree that, in negotiating the successor to the Programme for Competitiveness and Work , we should embark on a programme of radical tax reform, examine the measures embarked on by the Labour Party in the early 1970s and propose a 20 per cent standard tax rate? Unfortunately, subsequent Fianna Fáil Governments abandoned that low tax approach to personal incomes.

What were the tax rates in 1986?

The record will show that that is the reality, wrought by the truly disastrous Fianna Fáil Government following the 1977 general election. Then in 1987 the Government gutted our health service. Deputy McCreevy is remembered for his ignominious period in the Department of Social Welfare.

Has the Taoiseach declared a general election? Is there a closing date for nominations?

Given that there are some people, including some in my constituency, who can spend £750,000 on a fairly ordinary property and, thanks to the Minister's scrappage incentive, a fleet of new cars, in negotiating the next national pay agreement, whether through social welfare measures or radical tax reform, is it not crucial that money be funnelled to the poorest working sector, those in the low-paid private sector?

While welcoming the serried ranks of departmental officials accompanying the Minister this morning, I must ask whether we really need a Department of Finance. We are discussing a total Estimate of some £353 million. Does the Minister agree that, bearing in mind the Maastricht criteria and the possibility of our joining the single Euro currency our room for fiscal manoeuvre will become narrower?

We have been told during the past few weeks that the European Monetary Institute will have a fundamental role in Irish monetary policy. If that is the case will we need a traditional Department of Finance or will a regulatory mechanism to monitor other Departments, which could be attached to the Taoiseach's office, be sufficient? Are we losing fundamental influence over the control of our fiscal destiny? Are we in a straitjacket?

I am glad Deputy Broughan has arrived in such controversial humour.

The election is on.

It has obviously started. I am glad he is endorsing the Progressive Democrats' position so vigorously at this stage.

The Deputy's party document is flawed.

We will talk about that another day. I remind the Deputy politely and in a friendly manner that in 1973 fewer than 2 per cent of taxpayers paid tax above the standard rate, but that by 1987 the figure had climbed to 43 per cent. The experience of other countries, which sometimes he does not like to hear, tends to suggest that the greatest progress towards tackling the employment issue can be made on the basis of the radical tax reform he mentioned.

Members mentioned that people are as well off on welfare as working. That has been known for five to ten years and many people find the response of the State to their working 40 hours a week is to leave them more or less with the same disposable income. That carries with it certain implications, particularly for politicians on the Left as to what they should do to make social welfare operate as a springboard to work rather than a reason for not taking work. I have never heard a satisfactory analysis, particularly from the Left in Irish politics, as to how that issue will be dealt with. In recent times I have heard the usual drum beat about minimum wages.

It is good enough for the American economy.

I remember addressing an IBEC personnel managers' conference held at the Burlington Hotel with that well known liberal, Professor Sean Barrett from Trinity College. At that time the Minister was in Opposition and he strongly supported the idea of a minimum wage. Before we go down this road let us consider the fundamentals of why unemployment is so stubbornly high. The reason is that many people find it better economically not to work. A society that is willing to tolerate that is deluding itself because people behave rationally.

On the point of the live register and the labour force survey, people are claiming unemployment assistance at a higher rate than they are willing to admit when confronted by a surveyor. Either they are being honest with the surveyor and dishonest at the dole hatch or they are being honest at the dole hatch and less than honest with the surveyor in that they are exaggerating their position. Those in part-time employment consider that because they will have a job next week and had one last week they are employed. When confronted with a question about work, they will categorise themselves as being employed. We would be codding ourselves to believe that the 80,000 divergence is explained totally by people's self image and their capacity to exaggerate their economic position even when they are on the live register. The reality is that we should ask ourselves why people on the live register tell those, who ask them what they are doing, that they are working. The truth may be that many people may work in the black economy, given what the Minister said about the Cork example and that those of us who have been in a position to offer employment are aware that if ten people apply for a job two or three of the applicants might mention that they are on the dole and want to stay there. I refer to junior rather than senior jobs. Anybody who has been in the position of recruiting people is aware that applicants are sufficiently confident to know that they will not shock their potential employer by mentioning the possibility of remaining in employment on a cash only basis. I believe a significant number of people drawing unemployment assistance are also working. I do not say that from a moral condemnatory point of view. It is perfectly rational behaviour. If a person on the dole is offered work, he or she will start working and many people consider that reasonable behaviour. If people end up worse off for making some effort to improve their positions, most people would say that such a system is unfair and they would not feel any great moral inhibitions about cheating the system.

It is time we addressed the issue I raised with Deputy Broughan at the beginning of my contribution, why as a society we consider it reasonable to say to people they are better or as well off unemployed as working. A society which sends that message to a significant proportion of its population cannot survive in the long run. I do not believe the notion that there is no such thing as voluntary unemployment. Over, say, 25 years if the workers living on any given street are not made significantly better off than the non-workers living on it, the message gets home and people adapt their behaviour to conform with the message they are receiving.

If society allows someone like me to be charged 15 per cent tax on a special savings account for surplus money for which I cannot think of productive investment and 85 per cent of the interest goes into my back pocket tax free and it collects 57 per cent on every penny earned in overtime by a single women working as a supermarket check out assistant, earning 80 per cent of the average industrial wage, that society is sick.

Instead of Deputy Broughan castigating Fianna Fáil for undermining Labour Party taxation policies, he should bear in mind that in the period we were talking about, 1973, 2 per cent of taxpayers were paying above the standard rate. During the 23 years that have elapsed since that time the Labour Party has been in office for 12 of those years.

And the Deputy was in Government.

I have never been in Government.

The Deputy was his party's most influential person outside the House.

I agree with the points made by Deputies McCreevy and McDowell on the question of the live register. More information is needed about the people on it and its collection would be in their interests in that it would assist in ascertaining their skills. One Minister should have responsibility for FÁS and the Department of Social Welfare. It appears contradictory that two agencies are involved although I accept they work closely together.

When I was in Opposition I asked the medical social research board to carry out a survey of the live register in my town. Its officials interviewed every person on it and the results made interesting reading. I would also like to know the projected increase, if any, in public spending in the current year over that in 1995.

I have a note about the live register which I will make available to the Committee because it is quite succinct and I omitted to give additional information contained in it. The introduction of the equal treatment provisions in the Social Welfare Bill, 1995 enabled many women, who in the past were prevented from doing so, to sign on in their own right. In the nine years between April 1986 and April 1995, the numbers on the live register increased by 44.400. Females accounted for 35,000 of that, over 80 per cent. That is a partial explanation for the divergence. Also, an increasing number of part-time and casual workers sign on in respect of the days when they do not work. They may describe themselves as being at work, but it is part-time work. There is evidence that part-time working is not the preferred option of the majority, but it suits some people and should be available in an open mixed economy. There were approximately 23,000 such part-time workers; it is now estimated that there are about 31,000. I have already referred to the idea of people splitting their entitlements and to the changes in means testing procedures.

On the control system relating to the live register, weekly attendance at the local social welfare office is no longer required. The system has been computerised and, once on the system, people receive their payments, in most cases, through the post office and only have to attend the local social welfare office every four weeks.

There is quite a substantial control mechanism in place. In 1995, for example, there were in excess of 65,000 means reviews of unemployment assistance. This was in addition to the specialist activity of the external control unit which focuses exclusively on interviewing customers on the live register. In addition, the special investigation unit carries out inspections on employer premises and investigates reports of working and claiming. It tends to concentrate, with the help of specialist inspection squads, on the construction, catering and haulage industries.

I have taken note of the point made by the Deputies about getting more information along the lines mentioned by Deputy O'Hanlon. Such information would be extremely useful to everybody, particularly if it was broken down by constituency or region. I will try to get that information for the House. I have nothing further to say about the live register unless people have specific questions.

Deputy Broughan asked a number of neutral, impartial and excellent questions. There is a conundrum regarding our live register. The reason it seems to be so unchangeable in contrast to live registers in other European countries is that we still have a labour market that is growing in absolute terms. Due to its demographic composition, our society is still producing in excess of 25,000 extra entrants into the labour market even allowing for retirements. Given that the peak, in terms of population, is aged 15 or 16 at the present time, that demographic trend will continue for at least the next ten or 15 years.

In addition to that demographic factor, our labour market is the most atypical labour market in the whole of the European Union in that it expands and moves, in migration terms, in a way that is disproportionately larger than any other single European Union labour market. Between Britain and Ireland, for example, there is an integrated single market for the purposes of employment. The migration figures fluctuate quite substantially. Net migration out of this country would appear to be down to a relatively low figure of 5,000 and, in labour market terms, we are not necessarily getting sufficient statistical evidence of people retiring in England and coming home; such people go back into the system but not necessarily into the labour market. Deputy O'Hanlon would have firsthand experience, in a constituency like Cavan-Monaghan, of people who have sold their business or residence in parts of Britain and retired home with their UK pensions. They compound our labour market statistics and produce distorting results.

Our tax system also produces distorting results, and it is for that reason this year's budget and last year's focused on the category of person referred to by Deputy Broughan. Not everybody in the private sector got increases under the Programme for Competitiveness and Work. In many cases this was because the company in question was not in a position to pay for them. However, leaving aside benefits received in this year’s and last year’s budget on class A PRSI contributions, a single person in the low wage category who has worked over the period of theProgramme for Competitiveness and Work and obtained the increases will be 14 per cent better off at the end of the process, after inflation is taken into account, than he was at the beginning. We can all quote statistics in different ways. Deputy McDowell very cleverly quoted the statistic that it is net additional earnings that are taxed at the rate of 56 per cent rather than the full amount, and that if one were to take the full earnings into account, the total tax take would be closer to 30 per cent. However, it is clear that our level of personal taxation is unacceptably high for a substantial number of people, and that is why the apparent performance of the Irish economy, which has been very favourably written about by international commentators, is not necessarily perceived as such in many quarters. There is, nevertheless, considerable external evidence to suggest that all the indicators, for example retail sales of alcoholic beverages, clothing etc., that would be used to measure activity in the economy are very positive at the present time. In a society like ours the benefits are unevenly distributed, and it is one of the functions of the Department of Social Welfare to try to provide in part for equality in the distribution of income. In a complex open market economy it is very difficult to get that balance right, and there will continue to be distortions in some areas. The budget I introduced this year concentrated on addressing distortions at the lower end of the employment area. We have consciously set out to widen the gap between net take-home pay and social welfare for someone in a low paid job.

There are emerging labour shortages in our economy in the skills area. In the Deputy's constituency, Gateway 2000 is expanding its European telemarketing support services system. There are labour market shortages of people with language skills. That end of the labour market is much better addressed and provided for than the semi — and low-skilled area. We can tackle this in two ways. The New Zealand way, as we heard from Finance Minister Ms Ruth Richardson, is to cut welfare. That is not what I would propose in this instance.

The Germans will cut it too.

They will alter some of the terms of their current extraordinarily generous welfare provisions as was done in the 1980s in this country; we were attacked by people on the Opposition benches when conditions such as length of time on record, period of support etc., relating to certain entitlements were tightened. This is the area the German package has focused on; basic rates are not being touched. The Progressive Democrats' sister party in the German Coalition, the Free Democrats, would be the first to object to such a measure.

Nobody is suggesting it.

The Deputy is implicitly suggesting it. We either cut the basic rate or widen the gap between that and take-home pay for someone on low pay. That is precisely what this year's budget did. We focused on that area and did not provide significant relief for people on middle to upper middle incomes other than that they will no longer have to pay university fees and children's allowance has been increased. Since the Deputy has a young family, he will benefit from the abolition of university fees and from children's allowance which has been increased by 45 per cent in the past two years. There have been significant transfers to middle income households——

I accept that.

——but they are not in their wage packet.

I asked for neither.

The Minister has analysed the situation perfectly well. We not only have an unemployment problem but it is of a scale that is not measured by the live register because of the single labour market with the UK and returning emigrants from elsewhere. To reduce by ten the number on the live register we would need to create approximately 30 to 40 real jobs. That is why I have been strongly against moves to narrow the tax base, as had been suggested by a number of Deputies, and why we should focus very strongly on reducing payroll taxes.

The committee will do a great service to the country if it unanimously focuses on the ever more urgent need to reduce labour taxes and find alternatives.

With respect, Sir, this administration has done much in that area in the past three years.

I accept that.

The Fianna Fáil-Labour administration started the first shift to a differential in the PRSI rates on both the employer and employee side, particularly for the category we are talking about. This was done in the clear knowledge that for many labour intensive industries which traditionally sell into the UK market — and there were one or two unfortunate casualties in the garment industry in Deputy Noel Ahern's constituency — the labour cost component of their product was higher than 50 per cent and therefore payroll costs were an enormous component. We have addressed the loss of competitiveness that they suffered as a result of the currency appreciation from 99p to £1.03p because the payroll taxes have come down by 3 per cent for the vast bulk of the workforce. More needs to be done.

Absolutely.

We are addressing our competitive position in relation to relative labour costs but not as much as we would like. There has been a marginal improvement in the tax area but a significant improvement in the PRSI contributions.

An additional competitive problem we have vis-�-vis the UK, which is consciously opting for a low pay regime, is that of transport costs but I have been informed by sections in the Department of Finance that the completion of the infrastructure programmes under the Structural and Cohesion Funds at the end of 1999 will mean a reduction of 15 per cent in the current cost base of transport.

The analysis is broadly shared by all parties. We are moving in a direction agreed by and large by all parties but the rate at which we are moving in different sectors will be different because of the emphasis of different parties.

Ruth Richardson, who came to our committee, sent me a book about herself as a very friendly gesture. It makes fascinating reading. The same situation obtained in New Zealand where there was a broad consensus that something radical had to happen to change things. It went from Roger Douglas to herself which in New Zealand was considered to be right across the spectrum. The people who stood against change in New Zealand were the left of the Labour Party and the conservative right of the National Party, the Muldoons.

It was the Labour Party who started the reform in New Zealand.

I accept that.

I read recently that the policies pursued by the New Zealand Labour Party, which are espoused by Deputy McDowell, have left it at 4 per cent in the polls.

The Deputy said that on the last occasion and I am getting great encouragement from that development.

The old-fashioned left and the conservative right stifled change but the other politicians across the political spectrum broke through, became radical and began to look at labour taxes.

I agree with the Chairman that we should be most concerned about labour taxes. I am very encouraged that in the past three or four years PRSI has been established in general as a tax on labour. When I said that seven or eight years ago, I was told this was some type of right wing plot to undermine the basis of social welfare. By reducing the level of PRSI you effectively increase the tax allowance for most people. For people paying PRSI at the full rate, it is clawing back their tax allowance. PRSI is a regressive and indefensible tax. I would love to hear the Irish left say "let's get employee PRSI out of the way".

I had wanted to comment on the earlier issues but the Minister has responded to most of my concerns.

It was interesting to hear Deputy Broughan openly declare himself a Euro sceptic. We have lost some say as a result of the Maastricht Treaty and the Minister has to operate within rules made by somebody else.

Send them back the money.

We send them a great deal of money.

I agree with other speakers' comments on the live register. The numbers on the live register are real people and one cannot say that the survey statistics are better because many are in casual or part-time work. The statistics should be made clearer. People just see the live register figure of 280,000 but do not see the small print. Under a new rule women who leave work to look after children under six years are entitled to sign for credits. If one plans one's family to take account of this one could sign for credits for 15 to 20 years. I presume they will also be included in the figure of 280,000. The number may start small but in ten to 15 years there will be 100,000 people. I agree that the live register gives the actual figures, not the survey statistics, but it should be analysed properly and the A, B, C and D figure should be published every month so that the real figure can be seen.

There has been movement on the labour taxes of low wage industries but each year the Minister for Finance has announced that the proposed changes will take 80,000 out of the tax net in the first year and 70,000 in the following year. One begins to wonder how anybody is paying tax. Many leave the tax net for one month but are back in again. There has been an improvement in this area but there is room for more improvement.

A reduction in welfare has been mentioned but that is heresy. The taxpayer gives £1 billion each year to those on unemployment assistance but what does the taxpayer get in return? I could quote socialist doctrine to Deputy Broughan but a tenet of true socialism is that we feed people so that they may contribute. That is not being practised. Many on the dole could not afford to take up work if offered it.

I believe everybody on the dole, and not just the 40,000 on community employment schemes, should give something in return, be it eight, ten or 15 hours of their time each week. It would give those who have nothing to do but sit at home and listen to Gay Byrne and Joe Duffy an opportunity to contribute to society. The few hours work would be therapy for them and would probably weed out the few people who could not afford to take a job at present because they must sign off. We must look after those who are less fortunate than ourselves, but it is not unfair to ask them to do something in return. Such a movement would be appreciated by genuine people on all sides.

I am anxious to move on because the Minister must leave at 1.30 p.m. and we have reached only the second group of Estimates. I ask Deputy Broughan to be brief.

Approximately 15 years ago a famous poster, which was adapted from a "Gone with the Wind" poster, featured Ronald Reagan with Margaret Thatcher in his arms. I have a similar image in my mind now of the sentimental and growing attachment across the sea between Ruth Richardson and Deputy Michael McDowell.

I thought the Deputy would make it Deputy Ahern and Deputy Harney.

That could happen later.

Frankly, he could not give a damn.

When Ruth Richardson came here, a discredited person who is no longer even a Member of the New Zealand Parliament, she had the cheek to lecture us.

I would prefer if the Deputy did not use the term "discredited".

Ruth Richardson, the ex-New Zealand parliamentarian and Minister. The Minister, Deputy Quinn, made a valid point in relation to the labour market, which has been a fundamental problem in the conduct of macro-economic policies for 25 years. However, Ms Richardson would not answer a question about the New Zealand labour market. According to the opinion polls, the second most popular party in New Zealand is one which pursues a vigorous and virulent policy of banning emigration to New Zealand, particularly from Asia. It is doing this because it feels the labour market is getting out of control and threatening to undo some of the hard things which were achieved in the 1980s and early 1990s. Deputy McDowell should give the full picture before his sentimental attachment to a possible counterpart in New Zealand proceeds any further.

In reply to Deputy Broughan, Ruth Richardson was invited to meet the committee; she did not present herself. Second, when she came here, she was welcomed by the great majority of the members of the committee and she provided a stimulating meeting. Third, she visited many institutions in Ireland and she was well received everywhere. Probably one of the most pleasant moments of her stay was when she blew Deputy Broughan out of it at the committee meeting. She left him a sore loser.

The Deputy is encouraging further argument.

Did she get back to New Zealand?

We must make progress. A brief point, Deputy O'Hanlon.

Deputy Mitchell said the committee would discuss the Minister's statement and then move on to the subheads.

I ask the Deputy to be as brief as possible.

Regarding subhead K, when will the Fóir Teoranta liability expire? The body is now in the hands of the ICC Bank. In relation to subhead M, the State will receive £70 million from the peace initiative funds, while a sum of £4.3 million is provided by the Government. How much of that is likely to be spent in the current year?

When Fóir Teoranta was wound up, all its liabilities were transferred to ICC and it receives a management fee for doing that. If memory serves me, the figures are reasonably positive overall. As soon as the liabilities are expired, when they have been dispensed with or sold off, the management fee will cease.

When will that be?

I understand it is likely to run for another few years. It is not clear from the information I have; I will try to get it and communicate with the Deputy.

Is the Deputy referring to subhead M, the fund for community initiatives grant-in-aid?

Yes, I referred to the peace initiative. The subhead states £4,269,000 million from the Government, while there is £70 million from the EU. How much of this money has been spent to date and how much will be spent in the current year? The fund has been in place for almost 18 months.

It is not clear from the information I have before me. I will get it and communicate with the Deputy. The appointment of the intermediary bodies under the special support programme for peace and reconciliation was completed late in 1995. Only a small amount of money was drawn down last year because of the delay in appointing the bodies. If the Deputy recalls, he was in Monaghan town for part of the time and in Armagh town for the other part. I do not know how much of the money has been drawn down. As soon as I have that information I will make it available to the Deputy.

There appears to be another huge rise under the administration of subhead A.7, which relates to consultancy services. Last year, the committee was told the figure was particularly high because of special consultancy jobs on the third banking force.

It was not spent last year. A similar provision is included this year and it may not necessarily be spent this year either. The figure is provisional and the money will only be drawn down if the consultants are engaged.

I am anxious to move to Vote 7. However, before doing so, I ask the committee to note correspondence in relation to the Irish college in Louvain. This arose from the committee's report, dated 15 December 1995, on the Supplementary Estimates. This was circulated with the agenda earlier.

Is it agreed to note Vote 6? Agreed. We will move to Vote 7 -super-annuation and retired allowances, which is a revised Estimate. This Vote and Vote 45 — increases in remuneration and pensions, may be taken together. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Does the Minister support the principle that somebody in the public service who retires should receive the increases given through the Programme for Competitiveness and Work or should they get an increase related to what their successor is paid for doing the work? Should pensions be related to one’s retirement date and adjusted in accordance with the general living standard or in relation to productivity increases and other changes in relativities which occur after one retires?

The issue involves somebody who retires as a principal officer and receives a pension related to their outturn salary when they retired and they then get all the Programme for Competitiveness and Work and related increases. I do not support the principle that if the Buckley review body or an arbitration award decides that, because of changes in the nature of the work undertaken by principal officers they should be paid more money for the work they do, this should be retrospectively paid to surviving principal officers.

Is that not the case at present? Is that not the basis of remuneration?

I am told that what I just enunciated is not in accordance with the practice.

That was my point. Perhaps it was just in the past.

I expressed my view.

The Minister expressed his view; he was most imprudent.

It is a fairly frightening view.

We should be fair to everybody. Somebody in the private sector who retires does not get an increase because the managing director's salary is doubled. He never gets a pension increase on that basis. It is up to him to make provision for his own pension. A strategic management initiative is ongoing and massive flexibility will be introduced regarding wage rates in the public service in terms of incentives and performance related pay. This principle must be reviewed in that context.

I expressed my personal view, but I will not be thanked for it. The issue of public sector pensions is enormous. Given, I hope, that all retired people will have longevity, the issue will become more rather than less complex.

As Members of the committee are aware, during the negotiations with the teachers' unions the question of early retirement and pensions was referred to the body set up, with the support of the social partners, to examine the issue of public service pensions generally and related matters such as whether we should start to move towards some form of contributory pensions fund.

On the bonus side, in relation to our labour market demography, unlike other countries, Switzerland and Norway in particular, which will meet it very rapidly, we are moving more slowly towards the pensions wall. We have, therefore, more time to address the matter.

I would be horrified if the idea espoused by Deputy McDowell and the Minister took hold as the position would change fundamentally. Any performance-related pay should be kept separate and paid as a bonus which would not be reckonable for pension purposes. I do not know what the party view is, but I would find myself moving away quickly from such a suggestion.

On what rational basis?

I am a traditionalist. As a former public servant, I am familiar with the culture in the semi-State sector. Any bonuses should be kept separate. In this way one can benefit from one's labours. Those who work in the public service have always worked for the greater good rather than the individual. I will allow the Minister to float the idea publicly, but good luck to him.

The net cost of super-annuation and retirement allowances, after deducting Appropriations-in-Aid, this year will be approximately £91 million. This represents an increase of 7 per cent on the outturn for 1995. Does the Minister have the relevant figures for 1985 and 1990?

I do not have the information to hand. The array or phalanx of officials sitting behind me cannot be expected to anticipate every question that may be asked. If the Deputy tables a question, we can obtain it quickly.

I am sure the relevant figures are to be found in the Revised Estimates for those years. I only want the totals, not a breakdown.

I will send the information to the Deputy.

There are two problems that other countries have tackled, but which we have yet to tackle. In relation to State social welfare pensions, I agree with the Minister that we have more time to address the problem, which is not as acute as in other countries. For financial and economic reasons, we did not continue the process of lowering the age at which people should retire. I remember the time when it stood at 70 years of age. It was, subsequently, reduced, in turn, to 69, 68, 67 and 66.

This was done over a four year period by Brendan Corish.

Everyone believed that it would be reduced eventually to 60. This turned out, by accident, to have been a good decision. Successive Ministers for Finance and Social Welfare would have been delighted to reduce it to 60. As it turned out, this would not have constituted good long-term planning. The Minister should consider making 65 the retirement age and not allow those aged between 65 and 66 to receive a pre-retirement allowance.

The argument that we have more time to address the problem is predicated on a number of fundamentals which are not fully appreciated. It is not as acute as in other countries because savings will be made in other areas because of demographic changes. The statistics show that there will be savings in the education sector because there will be fewer children of school going age. Savings will also be made in other areas.

The theory is that, in keeping with the principle of social solidarity, the younger generations will provide for older generations. On that basis, if savings are made in a wide variety of areas, we should be in a reasonable position to meet the cost of pensions. However, this will not happen if interest groups in a wide variety of professions seek to benefit. The Minister's argument is based on a false premise if the savings which accrue in the education sector, for example, are devoted to salary increases. Based on experience, that is the way many trade unions see it. If this is repeated in the health sector and other areas, we will not be in a position to fund State social welfare pensions. This is a time bomb.

Without a shadow of doubt the second question we have to address is that of unfunded public service pensions. We do not have as much time to tackle this problem. Other countries have tackled it with limited success in most cases. To his credit the Minister mentioned this matter in a number of speeches in the past year which were not widely reported. It is a thorny political problem. It would mean a reduction in the salaries of the phalanx of excellent civil servants sitting behind the Minister and others throughout the public service.

Based on experience the financial implications are enormous. Can the Minister give us any figures as to the estimated cost of public service pensions in five, ten and 15 years' time? Some calculations have been made by people outside the public service. Are there any study groups working on this matter to find solutions?

Is Fianna Fáil working on it?

I share Deputy McCreevy's concerns. One of the reasons I asked Professor Dermot McAleese to chair the pensions commission, which comprises ten members representing the pensions industry, the public service and the trade union movement, was to look at this complex area. Finland, along with a number of Scandinavian countries, has a separate pensions fund from which the Government subsequently borrows. The accountancy is quite open and transparent and provision is made for it. There are notional contributions — we get into the theology of various pay awards in the 1950s and 1960s — which are part and parcel of this but there is no separate fund as such.

One of the reasons for this during periods of higher inflation than that which we are currently enjoying was that it was cheaper for the Government of the day to pay. It was a more cost effective borrower than anybody else in that it could borrow more cheaply. Using one system of cost analysis, it was cheaper for the Government to pay for it out of current account rather than establishing a fund, putting the money in and borrowing it back. There were also administration costs in relation to that. I do not believe that view would prevail any longer, but that was the assessment at the time.

I was involved in an organisation that introduced a pension scheme, which is not difficult once agreement is reached. One enters into a commitment to ensure that retired pensioners are paid out of current account. All new entrants come in on the basis that they are contributors. Depending on the age profile of the individuals, one arrives at a transitional basis. Any pension specialist or company would be able to draw up a scheme for an organisation or company to introduce. To do that for 30,000 civil servants and 200,000 public servants, who would have slightly different pension arrangements and entitlements, would be complex and difficult but not impossible.

We await the report of this commission. We do not have a lot of time and the sooner we put a provision in place the better provided for we will all be. The first step is to get the report of this group, which is only in operation for four or five months. I will bring the report to the House and we can debate it. As it concerns Members of the House as well as everyone else, it will be a matter which will have to be debated by all the participants whose agreement will be required. I presume it would form part of a future national agreement.

I am not convinced of the merits of funding State pensions or of having them in separate funds. The social insurance fund is a phantom and a pensions fund would not turn out to be very different from that. A fully funded pensions fund would be more problematical politically. There are many downsides to it. We would have huge problems with people demanding that an extra £100 million be put into their fund this year. I am not convinced of its merit.

I accept what Deputy McDowell said. One of the reasons for putting forward that idea is that it would be more politically saleable to the employees concerned if their money was going into a separate fund, unlike the social insurance fund. Public servants might consider that if their money was to go into a proper pensions fund contributions from Deputy McDowell's and my private practices would go. Without pre-empting what the Pensions Board will say, it should consider something which would be outside the claws of the State. A fund outside the immediate control of the State would be more acceptable.

That is the case in Finland. The fund would quickly acquire a lot of resources. Some 50 per cent could be put into Government gilts from which it could borrow. The Finns made the point that had they been party to the negotiations for the Maastricht criteria, they would have included provision in terms of the accrued national debt to cover liabilities, including pensions. Their national debt would be considerably less in real terms.

If we were to equate our exposure in terms of national debt, including the private pension fund provision, we would have a smaller debt than Luxembourg. Its debt would go through the ceiling because on the Continent there is no tradition of private pension funds. If a person retires from a private sector company, their retirement salary is averaged for a number of years and the State then pays them it is on a current account basis. Last year's NTMA annual report, which did the exercise from which I quote, shows in graph form the real level of indebtedness to GNP of the participant 12 — it may be 15 — member states. It shows a completely different rank order when one includes pension liabilities.

Funded pensions allow for mobility in and out of the public service.

That would be a very significant advantage.

We move on to Vote 8, the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

We move on to Vote 9, the Office of the Revenue Commissioners.

I would like to allude to something which has arisen in the House on a number of occasions. I note the improvements which the Minister indicated in relation to the contacts system which will give us a wider view of taxpayers and which will attempt to bring about a fairer taxation system. In many respects, we still have a very unfair taxation system. Another aspect of tax reform, which Deputy McDowell's party is not prepared to examine, is capital taxation.

The Committee of Public Accounts, which has examined the Chairman of the Revenue Commissioners, is unhappy with progress made in relation to the observation of drug barons. A year ago the Department of Justice promised that the Revenue Commissioners and the Garda Síochána would set up a unit as a part of a package aimed at dealing with the drugs tragedy, particularly in urban areas. This dreadful tragedy affects us all each day. This morning on my way to the House I noticed people queuing for the maintenance programme on a street in the Minister's constituency.

I am unhappy with the responses I got from the Chairman of the Revenue Commissioners to the Committee of Public Accounts in relation to what is being done about adequate policing and the transfer of information between the Departments of Justice and Finance and the Garda Síochána. Given that the Minister knows about the dimensions of this horrendous problem, could he get the Revenue Commissioners to do what it said it would do last year, that is, to provide some evidence to bring these outrageous criminals to book and to put them behind bars?

I will try to be as succinct as possible but I hope my brevity is not misinterpreted. On 7 February this year I answered questions in the House from Deputy McCreevy and others and since that time I do not have any reason to believe that requests for information from the Garda are not being complied with fully by the Revenue Commissioners or, alternatively, that information the Revenue Commissioners believe is pertinent to the Garda's anti-drugs activities is not being conveyed. On foot of the intervention by Deputy Broughan I will raise this matter formally again with the chairman of the Revenue Commissioners to confirm that is the case.

I agree with the points made by Deputy Broughan and, as the Minister pointed out, this matter has been raised on a few occasions in the House by me and others. This issue was raised on Committee Stage of the Finance Bill and what I propose is that a select group be established, which would liaise closely, made up of representatives from the Revenue Commissioners, the Department of Social Welfare and the Garda Síochána. I recognise the difficulties in this regard given my experience as a Minister for Social Welfare and the experience of an official of the Department of Social Welfare who was merely doing his job in regard to a particular case. This official was not involved in the case; he was the deciding officer and his name was highlighted.

I made the point on Committee Stage that some people believe the taxation affairs of certain individuals should be printed in the newspapers, and such information has appeared in the newspapers in the recent past. I realise some people think that is good press, and I agree such action may be in the public interest, but there is a down side in that if such information was made public, the names of individual officials in particular cases might also be made public. I counsel people not to take that line irrespective of their motives. The taxation affairs of individuals must be regarded as sacrosanct for the reason I have stated.

My proposal, and this has been suggested by others, is to set up small selected teams of people who would liaise closely with each other to apprehend criminals lords. In Dublin and in my constituency it is well known to the Garda and everybody else that certain people have excessive wealth which has been ill-gotten, perhaps through the drugs scene, but nothing can be done about it. The sooner this liaison team is established, the better. I appreciate the difficulties involved and I do not want to put the safety of any official at risk but I know there are people in the public service who would be happy to be part of such a team to apprehend these people.

What is the position in regard to the cost of collecting RPT? How many Revenue officials are currently engaged in collecting it? Many people say it costs more to collect than the revenue it brings in. Is this higher or lower than other forms of revenue ratio?

As the Deputy will know from completing what is probably one of the better designed taxation forms, it is very cost efficient. There are approximately 16 people involved and the total cost is approximately £0.5 million. That might cause the Deputy to revise his views. By definition any self-assessment system is in principle far more cost effective.

What is the yield?

The yield is £12 million.

Vote No. 9 is noted. We are not taking vote No. 10; that will be dealt with by the Minister of State in charge of the Office of Public Works. Vote No. 11 deals with the State Laboratory.

Will the Minister answer the question about the Revenue Commissioners tackling the problem of illegally gained means?

I listened to Deputy McCreevy's proposal, which seemed to have support on all sides of the House, and I have requested that a liaison team be set up consisting of the relevant personnel from the Garda Síochána, the Revenue Commissioners and the Department of Social Welfare because that would be the point of contact for information, which is the point Deputy McCreevy is making.

The idea is that people would volunteer to be on this team.

There would have to be close co-operation, having regard to the security of the people involved. We are all aware of threats and incidents in the past.

In the United States the IRS effectively has its own police force. A great deal of frustration has been expressed about our inability to take these people out of circulation. In the past when the authorities in the United States examined cases of serious criminality, the taxation road was the one the legal agencies had to take in tackling them.

We must deal with Vote No. 11 now. Vote No. 11 noted. Vote No. 12, dealing with a secret service, is noted. Vote No. 13 deals with the Office of the Attorney General.

The volume of paper dealt with in the House was mentioned. Deputies are snowed under with papers and reports they are required to read. The volume of legislation and regulations prepared in the Attorney General's Office is much greater than it was, say, 20 years ago, in addition to the other affairs with which it must deal. A proposal was made some years ago to take on additional people in the Attorney General's Office on contract. Has that been done?

How many people are on contract in that office? I am in agreement with the idea.

Six draftsmen have been hired, most of them on a contract basis.

On the question of computerisation of records in both Departments, it must be remembered that a Government fell due to aspects of the administration of the Attorney General's office——

Is the Deputy sorry the Government fell?

The Government fell because of inefficiencies, to put it mildly, in the Attorney General's office. In regard to the DPP's office, statistics on crime patterns are not available because it would involve staff going through large bundles of files to identify the cases to which Deputies refer. I wonder if these two Votes address such problems.

I notice Deputy McDowell is on his lengthy Whit break from the Four Courts.

Two weeks.

The legal profession has four or five months' holidays every year. We are in the process of spending a great deal more money on a legal services board but we might have been in a position to make the offices of the DPP and the Attorney General much more efficient if we requested judges and barristers to do a proper year's work. We have not seen Deputy McDowell for four or five weeks; he is now on his Whit break and presumably we will see him again in the next lengthy court break. Can anything be done about the independent republic down in the Four Courts?

The Deputy should wait for the discussion on the Vote dealing with the courts.

I investigated the reason the Law Library takes a two week break this time of the year. I am delighted to inform the House that it is to allow members of the Bar Library to go fishing in May. I agree with Deputy Broughan on this occasion.

We appreciate the way in which the Deputy praises this committee.

A system should also be brought in for Members.

We do not have time to deal with these cases. Will the Minister respond to the points relevant to Vote 13 raised by Deputy Broughan?

The relevant issue was the computerisation and modernisation of the Office of the Attorney General. I assure the House that significant and dramatic changes are being put in train.

Vote No. 13 and Vote 14, the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions (Revised Estimates), are noted. We will now move on to Vote 15, Valuation and Ordnance Survey.

Do the figures given for the Ordnance Survey concern only civilian staff? Many Army personnel are there as well. What is the rough divide between the two groups? There seemed to be an attempt to purge the Army from the Ordnance Survey a year or two ago. Soldiers who went abroad to serve their country in the Lebanon were told that they would not be able to get their jobs back when they returned. Are we making much progress in this regard? Are there more civilians and fewer soldiers in the Ordnance Survey? When will it totally comprise civilians?

There are 52 members of the Army Survey Corps Company attached to the Ordnance Survey. Some 44 of them contribute to the day to day operations of the Ordnance Survey working as military cartographers.

The Government has decided, as part of the reorganisation of the Army, to disband the survey company. Some of the staff concerned will wish to transfer to the Survey as happened previously. People who developed this specialist expertise in the area will have the option to transfer as civilians through the voluntary early retirement scheme into the Ordnance Survey Office or alternatively, to return to the Army.

What is the target date?

The matter is under consideration and will have to be negotiated. It may be a matter of years; I do not have any more precise information than that.

What is the thinking behind it?

I was surprised to learn that I was the first Minister for Finance to have visited the Ordnance Survey offices. I was a frequent purchaser of maps in the past.

Election maps?

No. In my former working life as an architect, it was the primary source for maps.

The Ordnance Survey is an incredibly valuable resource and it has not been properly exploited or commercialised to the proper effect. I have encouraged its director, Séamus Rogers, to bring forward more commercial proposal in relation to its operations. The Valuation Office is in the same boat. The Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Coveney, is currently working on a new valuations Bill which will upgrade and update the whole process. If this or any further Administration wish to introduce new forms of property or capital related taxes, it would provide an accurate statistical mechanism, among other matters, for it. It is a necessary part of improving our administrative system. With the kind of information the Ordnance Survey now has — I encourage the Deputy to visit the place and examine its facilities — it could generate far more commercial revenue for itself as appropriations in aid if it was given the green light and I have encouraged it to do so.

I strongly support the Minister's statements. The Ordnance Survey started out as a mapping system for the artillery of 19th century armies. I do not know what connection the Army now has with maps. I do not think it has any. Anyone who wants to start a war in Ireland can now buy a map.

There are immense skills and expertise in this service. It should be capable of being commercialised to a far greater extent that at present and I also urge the Minister to examine the North-South dimension. I do not see why two services should exist for an island as small as ours.

I am speaking from memory, but there is close co-operation between them. There are many international connections, harmonisation standards, mapping procedures, etc.

What about having a single agency?

It would cause a war on this island if that happened.

The Land Registry has become commercial. Would there be any way of making the Valuation Office, the Ordnance Survey and the Land Registry operate under the one umbrella?

In one building.

All of them roughly operate in the same area anyway. I do not know if there would be problems in doing this.

There is every reason for this. The Ordnance Survey mapping service has gone commercial. A full 1/1000 map will cost a person a fair amount of money. At one stage, they were ridiculously underpriced relative to the cost of their production. The cost of a 1/1000 map is approximately £30 to £40; it has been some years since I have needed to buy one. They have increased from £2.50 to that figure.

There is every reason it should be made to stand alone as a commercial operation. Many of the participants to whom I spoke directly, including the management, would not be averse to that. Likewise, the Valuation Office could equally provide a commercial service in some respects. We can examine the idea of linking the two of them to the Land Registry.

There are physical reasons the Phoenix Park location should not be changed. It has a big printing operation, equipment and space, there would be no commercial realised value by vacating these premises and there would be a cost in transferring it somewhere else.

What about moving them all there?

That is also a possibility. I have encouraged making them more commercial and a separate centre and I am glad the Deputies opposite agree with me.

How many staff are there at the moment?

There are 445 staff in total.

I am delighted to hear the Minister's progress reports on the Ordnance Survey. My grandmother used to tell me that sappers surveying my area in 1914 left for the western front and no one has come back since. The 1914 map of my area has not been revised. It, like whole tracts of the countryside, is out of date.

In numbers, the Ordnance Survey consists of 288 people; the Valuation and Ordnance Survey combined is 445 people.

I can check this but I am fairly sure it has an ongoing mapping programme updating the country. The old imperial system was a 1936 revision based on earlier maps. Brien Friel's play "Translations" is based on the original 1830s Ordnance mapping survey of this country. Its programme is ongoing. I hope this is not a reflection on your place of origin, Sir, but it has given priority upgrading maps on the basis of need and demand.

If I look for a map of my area, I will get a 1914 edition.

Vote No. 15 noted. Vote 16, the Civil Service Commission is also noted. We will now have Vote 17, Office of the Ombudsman.

This is another area of public administration, the cost of which is increasing. We read from the Ombudsman's report that the number of queries is increasing. This office does valuable work and I would like to ensure it has the facilities, expertise and sufficient staff to allow it to do this work.

The provision for the Public Offices Commission has been increased by 26 per cent. I hope this will enhance the operational efficiency of the Office of the Ombudsman.

Is the Public Offices Commission included in this Estimate? I cannot understand why that body is costing so much money. It is difficult to understand how £6,000 worth of travel and subsistence is involved in the discharge of the functions of the Public Offices Commission and why it needs office machinery. As I understand it, the function of this body is to supervise the Ethics in Public Office Act.

Subhead B.1. deals with the salaries, wages and allowances for the Public Offices Commission.

Is this the office in charge of the Ethics in Public Office Act?

Does the staff include a special investigator?

The staff numbers five.

What do they do all day? What issues are arising? I cannot believe there are five people superintending the register.

It is a valid question. I will make inquiries.

I cannot understand it unless the Minister is doing very strange things at the Cabinet table.

The cost of the Public Offices Commission is £235,000. Is that the cost of policing us? The expenses are broken down under travel and subsistence, incidental expenses and so on. To where will these people travel; will they follow us? Perhaps the Minister of State, Deputy Eithne Fitzgerald, has some other brainwave we have not read about.

Lest there be any misunderstanding, there are some establishment start-up costs such as the drafting of guidelines and related matters. These people are also working in the Office of the Ombudsman generally and combining the two functions.

When they are not investigating us they are doing something useful.

The Minister has probably given a very correct answer. For accounting purposes I assume account was taken of the apportionment of time and people under the various heads. I guess the figure of £235,000 is an accurate reflection of the cost of the Public Offices Commission. Knowing the amount of time civil servants spend on detail and costs I am sure that figure is correct. I do not know how the Public Offices Commission could cost £235,000. I am in agreement with Deputy McDowell on this matter.

I will refer to the Office of the Ombudsman rather than the Public Offices Commission. More money will have to be provided for the Office of the Ombudsman as I expect he will have to deal with more and more queries. I can think of three cases offhand where I could not get information from Government Departments, one of which was the Minister's Department. I was blue in the face following up one case with the Minister and the previous Minister and I could not bring it to a satisfactory——

If the Deputy did not have influence with him he can hardly have it with me.

As with all Ministers he was signing letters written for him. Under some rule or other I could not be given the information I wanted. Eventually, either my constituent or I suggested he go to the Ombudsman. After two years getting nowhere, there was a total change of heart in the Minister's Department and the Revenue. As the Taoiseach said, maybe I had not asked the right questions. If we were serviced and helped at Government level with parliamentary questions and other matters we could prevent many of these issues going to the Ombudsman and using time and resources thereafter. It is generally accepted that a politician is one step of the ladder and if one does not succeed with him one can go elsewhere. We are only making work for ourselves.

My experience is the opposite. I support the concept of the Office of the Ombudsman which is of Scandinavian origin but how do we measure its performance with the cost of £1.2 million? My experience is that Deputies are the ombudsmen. I frequently have people who have been everywhere including to the ombudsman and may have even gone to Deputy Gregory. Although we get the reports, how do we measure performance? Generally Deputies are the people who do the job.

The Minister of State, Deputy Eithne Fitzgerald, will introduce the Freedom of Information Bill which should address some of these issues. I cannot recall the case in question but I would be concerned that the person was able to get the information from the Ombudsman. If that information was available via the ombudsman it should have been available through a public representative. If the Deputy gives me the reference I will make inquiries.

The matter is now fixed up.

I know the matter is fixed up, but I do not want it repeated. Everybody may not have the tenacity to go down the same road as the Deputy and his constituent. If the information was available via the ombudsman then it should have been available via a normal public representative inquiry. If some interpretation of the Data Protection Act was subsequently reversed or altered by the ombudsman we should convey that information so that it is not repeated.

I had another query with the Department of Social Welfare.

If the Deputy brings the matter to my attention, not necessarily now, I would be more than happy to try to ensure——

In regard to the Public Offices Commission, I am alarmed that it is proposed to spend £250,000 on an administrative police mechanism for the Ethics in Public Office Act because it is not worthwhile. If I have the Minister's absolute assurance that these people are only nominally attached to that duty and spend the great majority of their time in the Office of the Ombudsman I will be relieved. If we are spending £250,000 per annum to supervise the register of office holders and the register of Members etc. that is a gross waste of taxpayers money.

I will get a more comprehensive note for the Deputies in question. The salaries involved are related in part to start-up costs which will not be repeated once the office is established. There are other costs which will recur.

There is one senior investigator, one investigator and one executive officer.

Where is the building? There are office premises, incidental and cleaning expenses. Where are all these people situated?

They are with the Ombudsman.

This is a route towards getting an expanded estimate. The question is valid.

New subheads are being created here. As the Chairman knows from previous experience the trick about a new subhead is that it can be increased each year. It appears that these people have been moved to this subhead. The items include incidental expenses, travel and subsistence, postal and telecommunications services, office machinery and supplies, expenses associated with computers and premises and consultancy and legal fees.

The Ombudsman's office is under our remit, but we have not had the pleasure of having him before the committee. We will invite him to appear before the committee to discuss this matter to ensure this is not a recurring expenditure. Is that agreed? Agreed. We have dealt with the Votes for the Minister's Department. Does he wish to sum up the discussion?

We have dealt with a complex array of Votes and many questions were raised. I will supply specific information in writing to the Members on questions that were not dealt with during the committee. I am anxious to ensure that questions raised by Members are answered properly.

In regard to a question raised by Deputy O'Hanlon, we are anxious to ensure that the outturn for our Department reflects the Estimate. I am reasonably confident at this stage that the management in the Department and its associates will ensure that is the case. If savings result, they will be surrendered back into the central fund rather than veered towards other items of expenditure. In many cases, if savings begin to manifest, people try to spend them on something else before they are reported to the relevant Department. We are trying to avoid that.

Does the Minister propose to revert to the practice of publishing comprehensive public expenditure programmes such as those produced in the 1970s and early 1980s?

Publication of those programmes stopped in the mid-1980s due to a lack of resources. A considerable number of staff was involved in their compilation. However, as they were useful at the time it might be worth considering if we can publish them again.

On a more flippant note, it is a pleasure to see the Minister doing what I believe he has always really wanted to do, to lead a public sector party into the Chamber.

I congratulate the Minister on administering his Department with such verve and calm competence during the past 18 months and I wish him well in the future. Will the first or second budget next year be the most significant?

The second, when we produce it.

Introducing a budget in November will have implications for all of us. It will pull the process back by about two months and encroach on the summer period. Unless people want to do so in the middle of August, we will be finalising the Book of Estimates in July.

Deputy McCreevy will be happy to note that, whatever about July this year, we will certainly be sitting in July next year, unless he is Minister for Finance at that stage.

If it were not for the Presidency obligations this year, we would be doing that this year.

The committee will discuss in detail the proposed new pre-budget arrangements, which may encroach on next year's summer holidays. I thank the Minister and his officials for coming before the committee. Our job is to ask questions and keep people on their toes, but we also have a duty to recognise a good service. On behalf of the committee I thank the Minister for his courtesy and good service.

The Select Committee went into private session at 1.30 p.m.

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