Skip to main content
Normal View

SELECT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND THE PUBLIC SERVICE debate -
Wednesday, 8 Oct 2008

Double Taxation Relief (Taxes on Income) Orders 2008: Motion

No. 1 relates to draft orders concerning the exchange of information on taxation matters and double taxation reliefs. I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Martin Mansergh, and thank him and his officials for attending and assisting in our consideration of the draft orders. I thank the Department for providing in advance the briefing material, which has been circulated among members. I congratulate the Minister of State on his appointment and wish him all the best during his term of office. I am sure he will do us and the country proud.

On 24 September, the Dáil referred to the select committee the motion that Dáil Éireann approves the following orders in draft: (i) Double Taxation Relief (Taxes on Income) (Republic of Macedonia) Order 2008, (ii) Double Taxation Relief (Taxes on Income) (Socialist Republic of Vietnam) Order 2008, and (iii) Exchange of Information Relating to Tax Matters and Double Taxation Relief (Taxes on Income) (Isle of Man) Order 2008. We can now proceed to consider these draft orders. I call on the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Mansergh, to make his presentation.

I thank the Chairman for his good wishes. I am very pleased to be before the committee, where I was honoured to serve for six years and for whose work and membership, past and present, I have great respect. I am here to introduce to the committee three draft Government orders giving force of law in Ireland to new international taxation agreements. Double taxation agreements, DTAs, are recognised as one of the most effective mechanisms for developing and strengthening economic relations between nations. The conclusion of such agreements is also an important milestone towards broadening diplomatic and political relations between countries.

DTAs, as they are known, are widely regarded as critical fiscal infrastructure for developing substantial bilateral trading and investment opportunities by reducing tax impediments that might otherwise deter such cross-border activity. For a small open economy like Ireland's, so dependent on trade and investment with other countries, continuing to expand our network of international tax agreements is not only necessary but vital. Tax information exchange agreements, TIEAs, while serving a different purpose, are also important international agreements which strengthen the ability of the revenue authorities in both countries to enforce their tax laws and thereby encourage the development of closer economic relations between both countries in the future.

The first two orders for discussion today are in regard to double taxation agreements signed between Ireland and Vietnam, and Ireland and Macedonia. The third order concerns two agreements signed between the Government of Ireland and the Government of the Isle of Man. The first of these agreements with the Isle of Man is a tax information exchange agreement and the second is an agreement granting double taxation relief with respect to certain income of individuals and establishing a mutual agreement procedure in connection with the adjustment of profits of associated enterprises. The tax information exchange agreement with the Isle of Man is the first such agreement into which Ireland has entered.

Today's consideration of these agreements by the committee is an important step in their ratification process. Draft Government orders confirming and giving effect in Ireland to the agreements were laid before Dáil Éireann on 15 September 2008 in accordance with the provisions of section 826 of the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997. A resolution by Dáil Éireann approving the draft orders is required before the Government can make the orders. The proposal that Dáil Éireann approve the draft orders has been referred to this committee for consideration. After consideration by the committee, the draft orders are then referred back to the Dáil for approval. Following that, the Government may make the orders, and the agreements will then be included in a Schedule to the Taxes Acts by means of a section in the forthcoming Finance Bill. Thereupon, the Irish ratification procedures are completed. Once both countries have completed their procedures, the agreements will take effect in accordance with their entry into force provisions.

I will now briefly describe the background to, and contents of, the agreements. The main purpose of double taxation agreements is to avoid the taxation in both countries of the same income or gains. This is achieved by allocating exclusive taxing rights to one country, or where both countries retain taxing rights, by requiring the country where the taxpayer is resident to grant credit against its tax for the tax paid in the other country. Double taxation agreements cover direct taxes, which in the case of Ireland are income tax, corporation tax and capital gains tax. They are comprehensive in scope, covering both the taxation of companies and individuals, and are in the main based on the OECD model tax convention.

Apart from relieving double taxation, double taxation agreements include provisions dealing with non-discrimination in regard to taxation matters. They also have mutual agreement procedures which allow the tax authorities of both counties to consult each other in taxation matters affecting the agreement, and provisions that allow for the exchange of information for the purpose of preventing tax evasion.

Ireland has 45 double taxation agreements in force at present. These include agreements with all EU countries except Malta and with all OECD countries except Turkey. Negotiations for agreements with Malta and Turkey have been recently concluded and it is hoped to have these agreements signed shortly. Negotiations are also ongoing with a range of other countries. These negotiations are at various stages. Apart from Turkey and Malta, treaty negotiations with Thailand, Georgia, Moldova, Azerbaijan and Bosnia-Herzegovina have been concluded and are due to be signed shortly. Negotiations are also ongoing with other countries, including, amongst others, Egypt, Kuwait, Morocco, Ukraine, Serbia, Tunisia, Albania and Armenia. The Department of Finance and the Revenue Commissioners also continue to liaise with business representative bodies in identifying other countries where tax agreements would assist Irish business.

Vietnam is the second South-East Asian country with which Ireland has successfully concluded negotiations for a double taxation agreement. The first was with Malaysia and was signed in 1998. Negotiations for an agreement with Thailand have also been concluded recently and will, I hope, be signed shortly. Concluding agreements with key emerging markets such as these are seen as an important element in the Government's ongoing strategy. For example, a couple of years ago, our bilateral trade was worth €145 million. ESB International has engaged in some 15 contracts with Vietnam and Irish visitors to that country amounted to approximately 10,000 in 2006.

Vietnam is a very significant new emerging economy in south-east Asia. Those of us old enough to remember even at a distance the Vietnam War and the opposition it aroused will be particularly heartened by its progress. It has a population of 85 million people and, since the beginning of its economic reform process in 1986, has achieved an average GDP growth of 6.8% per annum. Economic growth continues to be driven by strong industrial expansion, consumer spending and investment in services and tourism. Following accession to the WTO in January 2007, foreign direct investment in Vietnam has surged, reaching $20 billion in 2007. Vietnam has, therefore, been identified as an important developing market for Irish trade and investment.

The double taxation agreement with Vietnam covers direct taxes imposed in both countries. It is comprehensive in scope, and generally follows the OECD model tax convention. Specific provisions in the agreement deal, inter alia, with the taxation of business profits, dividends interest and royalty payments, employment income and pensions. Other important matters dealt with include non-discrimination provisions, which protect nationals from discriminatory tax provisions in the other country, and exchange of information provisions, which are necessary to counter tax evasion.

The agreement is expected to have a generally positive impact on trade and investment between both countries. Apart from avoiding double taxation and reducing incidence of taxation, especially in regard to dividend, interest and royalty payments, it will generally provide certainty in regard to cross-border taxation matters. As such, the agreement will significantly assist the development of future Irish business and investment in Vietnam.

Turning to the Macedonian agreement, the Republic of Macedonia was formerly one of the six republics of the Yugoslav Federation and became an independent state in 1991. The Republic of Macedonia is a member of the UN, the Council of Europe and the World Trade Organisation. During Ireland's Presidency of the EU in 2004, Macedonia submitted its application in Dublin for membership of the EU, and in December 2005 the European Council granted the Republic candidate status.

Macedonia is one of the smaller European countries, with a population of just over 2 million people. As a small developing economy, Macedonia is keen to attract inward investment, and, given the important role that tax agreements play in this regard, it has since its independence signed a number of such agreements with EU member states, including the United Kingdom and Germany in 2006, Austria in 2007 and Spain in 2005. It has also succeeded to a considerable number of agreements that were concluded by the former Yugoslavia, including many with EU states. In all, it has double taxation agreements with 35 countries, of which 18 are EU member states.

As with other such agreements, the agreement with Macedonia generally follows the OECD model tax convention. It covers the direct taxes of both countries and covers the taxation of both individuals and companies. It provides exemption at source for interest and royalty payments and for reduced rates of tax on dividend payments. These provisions are of importance in reducing fiscal barriers to investment flows between each country. Other important articles include non-discrimination provisions, which protect nationals from discriminatory tax provisions in the other country, and exchange of information provisions which are necessary to counter tax evasion.

The agreement is expected to have a generally positive impact on trade and investment between both countries. Not surprisingly, trade and investment between Ireland and Macedonia is rather small at present. However, there will be business opportunities for Irish business and investors in the future, particularly when Macedonia becomes a member state of the EU. Strategically, it is also important that Ireland increases its ties with EU candidate countries.

The third draft order concerns two agreements signed with the Isle of Man. The first is a tax information exchange agreement, TIEA. The Isle of Man TIEA is based on the OECD model. The model TIEA grew out of work undertaken by the OECD to address harmful tax practices globally. Lack of effective exchange of information was identified as one of the key criteria in determining harmful tax practices.

A working group was formed in 2002 under the auspices of the OECD global forum to develop a model TIEA that member states could use to negotiate bilateral TIEAs with jurisdictions. The working group consisted of representatives from OECD member countries, including Ireland, as well as representatives from the offshore jurisdictions. Across the OECD, for several years back, there has been concern to close gaps, which permit an escape of tax revenue lawfully required, by strengthening agreements with all relevant jurisdictions, whatever their size, that offer developed financial services.

The OECD model TIEA now represents the international standard for effective exchange of information in tax matters. Several OECD countries have concluded bilateral TIEAs with jurisdictions based on the model. At present, 28 bilateral agreements have been concluded worldwide. My officials are currently in the process of negotiating other TIEAs, most notably with Jersey and Guernsey.

The Isle of Man was one of the first international financial services centres to make a commitment to the OECD standards of tax information exchange and transparency. It was also one of the jurisdictions that engaged with the OECD in developing the TIEA model. Since then, it has concluded bilateral TIEAs with a number of countries: the USA, the Netherlands, the seven Nordic countries — Denmark, the Faroes, Finland, Greenland, Iceland, Norway and Sweden — Ireland and most recently the United Kingdom.

Ireland welcomes the Isle of Man's commitment to the OECD standards and its willingness to enter into TIEAs. The TIEA between Ireland and Isle of Man will allow the revenue authorities of both countries to request directly from the tax authorities in the other country information that is relevant to a tax investigation, such as bank account information or company or trust ownership information. The agreement will therefore greatly assist the Revenue Commissioners in tax investigations involving Isle of Man entities and bank accounts.

The signing of the TIEA represents a new chapter in relations between both countries. As a direct consequence of this new relationship, Ireland and the Isle of Man also signed an agreement affording relief from double taxation with respect to certain income of individuals. This agreement is aimed at reducing the possible tax obstacles that may hinder the free movement of individuals between both countries. It also establishes a mutual agreement procedure in connection with the adjustment of profits of associated enterprises. Other OECD countries have agreed similar provisions in their TIEA negotiations. The normalisation of relations between Ireland and the Isle of Man concerning tax matters will provide a welcome platform for significantly strengthening the business and economic ties between both islands.

I therefore commend these three draft orders to the select committee. If so required, I will be happy to deal with any aspects of the various agreements in more detail.

I thank the Minister of State for his presentation. I now call on Deputy Bruton.

I propose to share my time with Deputy Kieran O'Donnell.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

I recently represented the Chairman at an interesting meeting on the common corporate tax base and the moves that some European countries support to develop such a tax base. The alternative approach, on which the Commission has made progress, is one which is much more fruitful — that is, limiting damaging tax competition. The Minister of State adverted to this in his presentation. Are there any outstanding issues for Ireland concerning investigations of damaging tax competition? No doubt the stallion issue arose in respect of allegations that it would represent damaging tax competition. Are other files open with which Ireland will have to contend over the coming years? I do not know if the Minister of State has that sort of information but the question occurred to me when he was dealing with this issue, which clearly is to the fore in respect of countries that were traditionally seen as tax havens. As part of our strategy to prevent the development of a head of steam for a common tax base, we need to ensure forms of tax competition that are not deemed to be in the damaging category, even though Ireland has been a proponent of strong tax competition. We must prepare ourselves to deal with anything that would fall into that category.

In the context of making this agreement does the Minister of State have an estimate of the amount of money deposited by Irish residents in the Isle of Man for tax purposes? Is the Minister aware how many Irish citizens are resident for tax purposes in the Isle of Man yet, although they are non-resident, effectively live in Ireland? In the context of the guarantee to the banking structure, we know that almost all the Irish banks which are subject to the guarantee operate in the Isle of Man. Many of the banks not registered in Ireland but currently applying for the guarantee also have operations in the Isle of Man. What consideration, if any, has been given to protecting Irish taxpayers' interests in this context? I recall it was reported in the tribunal that Mr. George Redmond was coming from the Isle of Man with a great deal of money. It has been a favoured place for Irish builders and developers to put money. What action, if any, do the Revenue Commissioners propose to take as a consequence of having this arrangement in force?

We should not mention the names of any individuals who are not present here.

It was publicly mentioned in the tribunals. I think we know that the Isle of Man is a favourite spot for certain types of Irish tax avoiders. The flights are cheap and frequent.

I welcome the Minister of State as well as the officials from the Department of Finance and the Revenue Commissioners. I have a specific question on the Isle of Man. The Minister of State is putting in place a mechanism for the exchange of information, including direct requests from the tax authorities in both jurisdictions. Are any tax investigations currently under way concerning moneys held in the Isle of Man by Irish residents? Have investigations been carried out in the past and what type of revenue have they yielded? What benefits will this measure yield to the Exchequer?

I thank the Deputies for their questions. The short answer to Deputy Bruton is that Ireland has no outstanding issues with the code of conduct relating to harmful tax competition — no issues of its own, in other words.

I am sure Deputy Bruton will be very familiar with the country's position on the common consolidated corporate tax base, CCCTB. We are opposed to it. We see many difficulties with it. I do not know if he wants me to go into that in any detail. I do not believe that is necessary.

With regard to Deputy Burton's queries, I have not been supplied with any estimates of the deposits there might be in the Isle of Man, nor the number of persons who might be resident for tax purposes in the Isle of Man. With regard to the latter question, it may be that the Revenue Commissioners could get that information because presumably the place of residence has to be indicated in the tax declarations of Irish citizens with some degree of residence here. We will communicate with the Deputy on that one.

The purpose of the agreement with the Isle of Man is to open up much more dialogue and communication than exists at present with that tax jurisdiction. This will enable investigations relating to specific individuals in specific contexts.

Implicit in the Deputy's question also was the rather border issue of the rules for tax residency. The Isle of Man would be one of the jurisdictions where people who choose not to be resident in Ireland for tax purposes may choose to be resident. Many of them choose to go to warmer climes.

Deputy O'Donnell asked about the benefit——

It means we will be able to conduct such investigations. It is fair to say we will need some kind of lead which enables us to put a specific question to the authorities about a specific individual or company rather than at a very general level. It will certainly be a significant improvement on the current situation to the extent that it assists tax compliance and investigation of tax evasion and therefore brings more revenue into the Exchequer. That will be a benefit but it is worth saying that various schemes run by the Revenue — and I am talking about more recently than any of the tax amnesties — that have exhorted persons to come up with information on anything they owe by a certain date, may include people with deposits in the Isle of Man. I can recall, and this came up 30 years ago, being exhorted by a local bank official to find myself an artificial address in Northern Ireland, Britain or, for all I know, the Isle of Man, an offer I did not even explore let alone anything else. There may still be a residue of that legacy to be sorted out.

I welcome the Minister of State and his statement. I welcome also these new double taxation agreements with Vietnam, Macedonia and the Isle of Man. Does the Minister of State anticipate any flows of money out of those countries now that we will have an agreement with them? If depositors and other individuals were to move large flows of money because of these new double taxation agreements, would that information be brought to the Minister of State's attention? Will there be a look back type rule in regard to money flows as such?

——if there are many "hot" money deposits in either Vietnam or Macedonia.

There has been talk that there is "hot" money in the Isle of Man. This measure will improve transparency and be of great benefit to the Revenue Commissioners in that they will be able to follow up on the people they know are hiding money on deposit in the Isle of Man.

In terms of putting together these agreements, how long does it normally take and why are they only being signed off now? Why have they not been in force for the past ten or 15 years? What were the barriers to such agreements being put in place? This measure will improve relations with these countries. Will these agreements improve the exchange of information on money flow between Ireland and the Isle of Man?

Typically, these agreements take 18 months to two years to negotiate. There are normally two rounds of negotiation followed by various procedures. We have a procedure here which will not be complete until the passage of the Finance Bill, which presumably will be finalised before the end of the year under the new timetable.

In the case of Vietnam and Macedonia there is a sort of reciprocity but I do not think "hot" money is likely to be an issue.

There are 45 double taxation agreement in place now. That compares to 23 in 1994, and I listed up to a dozen or more that were at various stages of negotiation. As to whether these matters will be brought to my attention, if there is a major phenomenon it will be brought to the Minister's attention but, normally speaking, the Revenue Commissioners get on with their work of collecting revenue.

All of this process, particularly the Isle of Man agreement, is part of a pattern that OECD countries in general are engaging in to reduce and, if possible, eventually eliminate what is euphemistically called harmful tax competition. A meeting will be held in the OECD in about a fortnight's time, at which I will probably represent the country, to do with these issues, and in particular the Liechtenstein case which got a considerable amount of publicity. Before anyone asks, the German authorities are still trawling through the documentation arising from the affairs of Liechtenstein and are not yet in a position to pass on anything to other countries. That process is expected to be completed fairly shortly and if there are any Irish residents involved, the tax authorities here will be informed reasonably shortly.

The importance of the Isle of Man tax information exchange agreement is that it opens up a new avenue for exchange of information. It is not precisely a double taxation agreement — it is rather different from that. I suppose it will deter Irish residents from using bank vehicles in the Isle of Man for the purposes of evasion. Irish residents are perfectly entitled — it is quite lawful — to transfer money there as long as they are prepared to declare it. I have no problem with that, or similar transfers to other locations. In light of Ireland's geographical proximity to the Isle of Man, the co-operation of the authorities in that jurisdiction is welcome. It is an important and valuable step. The Isle of Man is taking a lead internationally. Many other jurisdictions of a similar nature are not nearly as advanced as the Isle of Man has become.

Prior to the introduction of this measure, what powers did the Revenue Commissioners have to investigate bank accounts held in the Isle of Man? The Minister of State said that this may take 18 months. Why is there a need for such a delay? The Minister of State used the term "proximity" when speaking about flows of money. I have asked two questions on the basis of what the Minister of State has just said.

If the Deputy is asking why this did not happen previously, I remind him that two willing partners are needed if agreement is to be reached. I do not think there has been a lack of willingness on the part of the Irish Government in this regard. The only investigative power the Revenue Commissioners had in the Isle of Man applied where criminal justice matters were involved. There was some co-operation, but it was very slow and cumbersome.

I support these proposals. Can the Minister of State clarify whether the Revenue Commissioners will need to have reasonable grounds for seeking the information mentioned in these agreements? Will the Revenue Commissioners be able to ask for a list of every Irish person with an account in the Isle of Man? Will they have to show that they have reasonable grounds for suspecting that somebody is involved in tax evasion? Irish people could have accounts in foreign banks for genuine reasons. They may not be evading tax. I am aware from my own experience that things can happen. I discovered that a lien was slapped on a property owned by a company I had an interest in because somebody called "Seán Robert Barrett" owed somebody else some money. I had to go to enormous lengths to get the lien removed. I eventually had to go to a court in the US. When we sign agreements on co-operation with other jurisdictions, we need to ensure we get the practicality right so that innocent people are not drawn into situations in which their personal rights are not protected. It can cost a great deal of money to get one's name cleared, even though one was innocent in the first place.

I am sure each of these international agreements includes certain conditions which apply to both countries. State authorities must have reasonable grounds for suspecting that someone is behaving in a manner that is contrary to the law. If they are allowed to write letters looking for lists of names and addresses of account holders in the absence of such grounds, they may do so simply because they are curious or wish to undertake a quick trawl. That is not right in a democracy. I do not suggest we should block anything that ensures people pay their just taxes. People should not be able to avoid tax because they have a false account somewhere else. I would like to know whether the agreements we are entering into require certain conditions to be met before information can be sought.

A balance always needs to be struck between the right to justice of an individual and the right to justice of the rest of the community. Ireland has a double taxation agreement with each of its EU partners, with the exception of Malta. Double taxation agreements go considerably further than Ireland's agreement with the Isle of Man.

I do not think Deputy Barrett needs to be overly concerned about the Isle of Man. I will explain the principles on which our agreement with that jurisdiction is based. The agreement does not provide for automatic or spontaneous exchange of information, as might well happen in double taxation agreements. It provides that information will be provided when requests are made. The agreement with the Isle of Man does not allow for trawling exercises. Requests have to be fairly specific. I am of the view, particularly in the times we live in, that we have to protect the revenue to which the State is entitled. Any loss of revenue has implications for the services we can provide to less well-off members of the community. One could argue that the balance has been tilted in the wrong direction over the last 20 or 30 years.

I do not suggest we should make it easy for people to evade tax.

I know.

I am conscious that any agreement should contain protections for the innocent.

There must be a specific request.

I apologise to the committee and the Minister of State for being late, which caused me to miss the Minister of State's opening remarks. I was at the first meeting of the Sub-Committee on Ireland's Future in the European Union, an issue in which the Minister of State has a great interest. I read the Minister of State's introductory comments. I welcome the two new double taxation agreements and the agreements with the Isle of Man. Are we making progress in increasing the number of countries and jurisdictions with which Ireland has double taxation agreements? The Minister of State said that 45 such agreements are in place at present. He listed a number of countries we are currently in negotiations with. Are we continuing to identify countries which Ireland would benefit from negotiating double taxation agreements with? I refer to places of major economic activity, such as the emerging economies in Asia. Such agreements have benefits for taxpayers and taxation authorities. Are we providing for reductions in taxation-related barriers to commercial activity and trade with countries which are emerging as significant economic players? Are we providing for the exchange of information with such countries?

As part of the Asia strategy, we are examining the possibility of negotiating double taxation agreements with other countries in south-east Asia. We are engaging in consultation with the business community. Every agreement that is negotiated involves a certain amount of resources. It takes people time to draw up agreements, etc. Certain agreements need to be prioritised. It is clear that the Asian economy will be an important partner — some might say the determining partner — for the western world in the years to come. It has priority for that reason. I gather that Germany, for example, has 73 agreements, and we will be matching that within a few years.

One question of Deputy Burton's I failed to answer was to do with Irish banks' subsidiaries in the Isle of Man. The scheme that was discussed in the Dáil this morning will determine exactly how those are treated and covered.

Will the scheme cover the disclosure of the names and addresses of those account holders to the Revenue Commissioners or will it separately enable the Revenue to get the names and addresses of all of the account holders in Irish banks?

All the details of the scheme are in negotiation, but I note the point.

I am probably not making myself clear. Does this double taxation agreement——

It is not a double taxation agreement with the Isle of Man. There are two agreements, but neither of them are for double taxation.

Does the exchange of information agreement allow the Revenue Commissioners to look for details on the names of all bank account holders in the Isle of Man who may be of interest to the Revenue?

The subsidiary of an Irish bank is under the regulation of the Isle of Man authorities. The same rules apply, regardless of the location of the headquarters of the bank. Under this agreement, one must have specific grounds for making a request. It is not a basis for a general trawling exercise. It is a question of what we have been able to negotiate, which is a considerable improvement on what exists at present. It is not necessarily a perfect, ideal world.

I accept that. Already there have been statements on the scheme of guarantee for the banks about how if a bank is owned by a parent company in a particular state, that is essentially its home country. The Minister of State is suggesting that is not necessarily so in the case of branches in the Isle of Man. That is what I understood he said. It is slightly off the point, but it will be important in terms of the scheme when we get to see it.

In the past the Revenue has taken High Court proceedings to get certain information in the Isle of Man and has not succeeded in its case.

I am aware of that.

It will be necessary to wait until the scheme is published to tease out the implications of this.

As there are no other comments, I take it that the select committee recommends that there should be no further debate on the motion by Dáil Éireann. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Top
Share