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SELECT COMMITTEE ON HEALTH AND CHILDREN debate -
Wednesday, 7 Dec 2011

Vote 40 - Health Service Executive (Supplementary)

The Minister, as an ex-officio member of the committee can, for the purpose of dealing with a Bill, be included in the number required for a quorum. Therefore, the committee is in public session. Apologies have been received from Deputy Derek Keating who is ill today.

The meeting has been convened to consider the Supplementary Estimate for Vote 40 - Health Service Executive. I remind members that it is a Supplementary Estimate and we are not dealing with all of the Estimate. I also remind everyone that mobile telephones must be switched off.

I welcome the Minister for Health, Deputy James Reilly, and his officials. Before providing details of the Supplementary Estimate I must state that details and briefing documents were given to members yesterday. The following arrangements will apply, the Minister will address the committee, followed by Deputy Ó Caoláin and other speakers from the Opposition. As we are considering the Supplementary Estimate there will be no recommendations to increase or decrease it and no votes. We will meet the Minister and the HSE tomorrow to discuss other matters. I call on the Minister to make his opening remarks.

I thank the Chairman. I am pleased to have the opportunity to address the select sub-committee and thank it for giving me the opportunity to bring the Supplementary Estimate for Vote 40 before it.

The Estimate must be seen in the context of the challenges that faced the Health Service Executive this year. As Deputies will be aware, the revised scheme for the HSE was €13.4 billion, a reduction of €683 million or 5% on the 2010 provision. The underlying reduction was approximately €1 billion due to the need to provide for a number of key policy priorities in the areas of disability, cancer control, child care and older people, as well as meet the cost of pressures such as the projected increase in the number of medical cards, superannuation and additional funding for the State Claims Agency.

At the end of October the HSE projected that it would have a shortfall on its Vote of approximately €300 million. This reflected the underlying expenditure difficulties in the acute hospital, child welfare and demand-led schemes. This supplementary Estimate together with savings in my Department's Vote and measures taken by the HSE should ensure that the HSE achieves a balanced spend at the end of this year.

The total additional funding sought for the Health Service Executive is €148 million. However, savings of €40 million have been identified within the Department's Vote which will contribute to the HSE requirement. Thus, the net cost to the Exchequer will be €108 million. I will outline the details presently and the other measures taken to address this year's deficit. First I wish to outline to the committee the reforms initiated to provide an efficient, cost-effective service with equity of access for all.

As the committee will be aware, the Government is embarking on a major reform programme for the health system. The aim of this reform is to deliver a single-tier health service supported by universal health insurance that will ensure equal access to care based on need not income. There are several important stepping stones on the way and each will play a critical role in improving the health service in advance of the introduction of universal health insurance.

Significant reform of the acute hospital system is already under way. The special delivery unit, SDU, was established in June to unblock access to acute services by improving the flow of patients through the system. It quickly began work with the HSE to put in place a systematic approach to eliminate excessive waiting in emergency departments. The special delivery unit is establishing an infrastructure based on information collection and analysis, hospital by hospital, so that we will know what is taking place in real time. This is the first time we will have such information and it will allow us to begin to embed performance management in the system to sustain shorter waiting times.

The SDU's establishment has meant a change in the current role of the National Treatment Purchase Fund, whose resources have been refocused to align closely with the work of the SDU and to allow for a progressive improvement in the performance of the nation's hospitals. The NTPF has welcomed the new initiative and is working proactively with the SDU and the HSE to achieve the best possible results for patients. The NTPF has been re-focused as the scheduled care arm of the SDU. I have set challenging targets for both scheduled and unscheduled care. I expect these to be met and I have ensured there is assistance in the system through the SDU and the NTPF to help health providers to meet these. If they are not met it will highlight the areas and sites that need particular attention in 2012.

The SDU has seen improvement in some sites but the situation remains challenging. The test for hospital management, including clinician management, will be how they manage their patient flows during the Christmas period and into January. The SDU also works closely and in liaison with the clinical programmes that are at the cutting edge of developments in several areas. This initiative, which provides a major step forward in clinical leadership in the health service, is producing benefits of both a clinical and an economic nature.

With the development of programmes such as the productive theatre initiative, the acute medical programme and the developments in stroke units in our hospitals, it is expected that major savings can be achieved with the more effective use of hospital beds. It is worth highlighting these initiatives. The acute medical programme has resulted in the addition of an acute medical admissions unit in Cork. This has reduced by one quarter the number of patients who might have been admitted otherwise, thus freeing up 22,000 bed-days, amounting to an approximate saving of between €15 million and €17 million. The productive theatre initiative has resulted in a saving of €2.5 million across five theatres and it is worth noting that there are 200 theatres in the country. There is considerable scope for further savings throughout next year. The development of stroke units in hospitals will shorten patients' stays, reduce the disability that patients suffer as a consequence of stroke and will be economically effective.

A further critical aspect of reform of the acute hospital system is the implementation of a new, more efficient funding system for hospital care. A money-follows-the-patient funding mechanism and a purchaser provider split, whereby hospitals will be established as independent, not-for-profit trusts will be implemented. Various initiatives to facilitate achievement of the money-follows-the-patient funding system are already under way. These include a patient-level costing project that tracks resources actually used by individual patients in hospitals and a pilot project in respect of prospective funding of certain elective orthopaedic procedures at selected sites. Previously in Navan, no patients had been admitted on the day of a procedure but within one month of introducing the measure some 80% were presenting on the day of the procedure, saving a great deal of money. The same applies in Cappagh National Orthopaedic Hospital where there has been a 45% increase in the corresponding number there. Throughout the country this has saved us €6 million so far this year. It is important to mention the VHI in this regard. The VHI has a role in addressing the issues in private and public hospitals in respect of length of stays and in respect of what they pay out. We will meet the VHI to discuss this change as one of the many methods used to bring down costs to the insurer and thus to the insured.

The reform agenda also involves enhancing and expanding our capacity in the primary care sector to deliver universal general practitioner care with the removal of cost as a barrier to access for patients. This commitment will be achieved on a phased basis to allow for the recruitment of additional doctors, nurses and other primary care professionals. Taking this step will allow us to move away from the old hospital-centred model, whereby health care was episodic, reactive and fragmented to deliver a more proactive, joined-up approach to the management of our nation's health. In other words, we will monitor people and support people with chronic illness so that they can keep themselves well rather than waiting until they fall ill and then receive treatment in hospitals which is expensive and not good for patients. Once the foregoing fundamental building blocks are in place, we will be ready to proceed with the introduction of universal health insurance. This system will give patients a choice of health insurer and will guarantee that everyone has equal access to a comprehensive range of curative services.

I will now set out the items making up this year's Supplementary Estimate. As the committee is aware, in 2010 the Government approved a voluntary early retirement scheme and a voluntary redundancy scheme for certain categories of staff in the public health service. The purpose of the schemes was to achieve a permanent reduction in the numbers employed from 2011 onwards and to facilitate health service reform. Both schemes were voluntary and it was up to the individuals concerned to assess their situation and to make an informed decision on whether to accept an offer. On this basis, it was not possible to determine exactly the eventual numbers of staff who would leave the system as a result of the schemes until early in 2011. Funding to meet the lump sum costs was made available through a Supplementary Estimate last year and the Vote for the HSE was reduced by €123 million for 2011 based on the numbers expected to avail of the schemes. These figures remained provisional at all times. Ultimately, fewer people availed of the schemes than originally estimated and the final figure of actual departures and consequent payroll savings was €65 million. Thus, there was a shortfall in funding of €58 million.

This shortfall was eventually funded by means of an adjustment to the primary care reimbursement service budget pending clarity on the trends in primary care reimbursement service's expenditure in the year. However, expenditure in the primary care reimbursement service, PCRS, has exceeded its budget and cannot absorb this shortfall. Therefore, as part of this Supplementary Estimate I seek €58 million to reinstate this funding. In other words, the voluntary exit scheme was supposed to yield €125 million and it fell short in the amount of €58 million. We would have been reimbursed regardless of whether it fell short. This is part of the reason that we seek €58 million today. The committee will see presently that the supplementary amount we seek from the Exchequer will cost only €50 million. The €58 million will cost the Exchequer but the point is that it was due to us at the beginning of the year.

The HSE has experienced some remarkably difficult budgetary issues during the course of 2011 in the acute hospital sector. I recognise that the management of funding allocations by public hospitals poses a serious budgetary challenge. Greater demand for services resulted in activity exceeding service plan targets. This, combined with significant overtime and agency costs for many hospitals and reduced employee numbers, has resulted in several hospitals exceeding their budgets in the current year.

Many hospitals will break even in the current year. Cost containment measures have improved the situation from earlier in the year but it has not been possible to address the entire deficit in the current year. However, any hospitals with a deficit must deal with their accumulated deficit next year within the overall financial resources available.

In addition to budgetary difficulties in the hospital sector, the general medical service and the community drug schemes are also incurring expenditure beyond budgeted levels because these are demand-led schemes. Very ambitious saving targets were set for the PCRS in 2011 which were expected to yield over €400 million. The measures included further price reductions and other measures agreed with industry, that is the Irish Pharmaceutical Healthcare Association, reductions in GP fees following formal consultation process under FEMPI and savings accruing from further examination of fees paid to community pharmacists under FEMPI.

Due to the ongoing economic difficulties and demographics there has been increasing demand on the GMS and other committee drugs schemes. Unavoidable delays in delivering expected savings in 2011 have increased pressure on the budgets of demand-led schemes. Measures taken under FEMPI to reduce payments to community pharmacists were implemented in June 2011 which means the full year savings will not be achieved until 2012. Similarly, fees paid to GPs in respect of immunisation programmes will not have their full year effect. As a result the full savings target for 2011 was not achieved.

The HSE has also experienced budget deficits in the area of child protection. The executive has a statutory duty for the care and protection of children as set out in the Child Care Act 1991. In meeting these statutory responsibilities the HSE delivers a range of preventative and support services in co-operation and partnership with children and their families.

The HSE may also intervene to protect children from harm or neglect and in exceptional circumstances may seek the permission of the courts to take a child into care. The most up-to-date information indicates that there are over 6,000 children in the care of the State and approximately 27,000 child protection referrals are dealt with by the HSE annually, with this figure subject to increase in recent years. There are significant financial and service pressures on the HSE's child protection and welfare services. Earlier this year the services were projected by the HSE to generate an overspend of €72 million by the end of this year. The projection is now in the region of €60 million.

These budgetary difficulties reflect the growing pressure on the child protection services over recent years which have been influenced by greater societal awareness of the importance of child protection and changes in underlying social issues, such as drug and alcohol misuse. There was an 8.5% increase in children in care in the first eight months of this year alone and within this overall increase there has been significant growth in the requirement for high tariff alternative care placements. In other words, we do not have the required facilities here.

Often such placements are required for older children with significant behavioural issues and risk-taking conduct. For the first six months of this year the HSE reported an increase of almost 90 special arrangements to meet the needs of specific children. The HSE has undertaken a series of measures to seek to limit the extent of the overspend but there is a limit to such measures, given the statutory nature of its responsibilities and the imperative to protect vulnerable children.

While the extent of the excess expenditure has been curtailed there is an estimated shortfall of €60 million in the current year. A comprehensive reform programme is underway within child welfare and protection services. This reform agenda will lead to the establishment of a new child and family support agency which will provide a dedicated focus on child protection and support families in need.

The implementation of these reforms will allow for the best possible services to be delivered within the resources available. There are a number of other measures being taken to address the HSE's deficit and achieve a balanced Vote at the end of the year. The HSE has identified €30 million in once-off savings in the corporate area and aims to increase its income by approximately €80 million by year end. It will also have an underspend of approximately €40 million in its capital programme this year. It will be reallocating these resources towards meeting the deficits in service areas.

Given the extent of the reductions to the budget of the HSE in 2011, the extra funding being requested through the supplementary estimate is relatively small. The shortfall on the exit packages was not within the control of the executive and, while €90 million for specific service pressure points is sought, my Department is contributing savings of €40 million towards this requirement, thereby reducing the call on the Exchequer.

The executive has been through a challenging year and faces an even tougher year ahead. My intention in proposing this Supplementary Estimate, together with the other measures I outlined, is to reduce the incoming deficit for the HSE as it faces into a difficult year in 2012. The executive will still have to address the underlying expenditure problem in the hospitals and, co-operatively with the new Department of Children and Youth Affairs, the issues in child welfare and protection services.

In short, in 2011 the HSE sought effective savings of €1 billion and has managed to achieve €800 million. Similar savings are required in 2011 and this Supplementary Estimate will go a small way towards mitigating the effect on patients and health service users. I seek the committee's approval for the Supplementary Estimates for Vote 40.

I remind members we are dealing with the Estimate.

I welcome the Minister and his officials. I have a number of questions on the detail of the request from the Minister for approval for €148 million in the Supplementary Estimate for the current year. The highlighting of the voluntary early retirement and voluntary redundancy schemes and the unexpected shortfall in the take-up is part of the reality we are contending with. The Minister outlined the final figures in terms of actual staff departures and consequent payroll savings were €65 million. He outlined the monetary effect of the shortfall in the take-up but what were the final figures on actual departures? The Minister has not shared that detail with us.

The briefing that accompanied the request for this meeting referred to the various service pressures, in particular demand-led schemes. In his address the Minister made reference to the planned introduction of legislation and the fact it had not been introduced quickly enough. He said there were consequent cost reductions. Can he specify what legislation he is referring to? Why does he believe the legislation was presented later than might have been the case?

There is concern on the part of Deputies about the throughput of legislation from the Department of Health. As there is an acknowledgement that legislation was introduced later than planned I would like to know why that is the case? Was there a systems failure? Has it been addressed in order that legislation will not start to backlog as has been the case? I acknowledge it is a problem the Minister inherited.

In regard to the acute hospital sector, the Minister stated a big factor in the increased cost of providing service plans across sector were increased agency costs. I am anxious to know what proportion of the cost is attributable to the employment of agency staff. Does that not indicate that the current moratorium on recruitment within the HSE and acute hospitals is a costly alternative? The agency staff model does not allow for proper planning, in terms of service delivery programmes. There is not the same certainty and it is challenging for hospital site managements. As is acknowledged, agency staff create additional cost.

Does the Minister have any hope that there will be any alleviation of the embargo? It was suggested in the opening statement of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform on Monday that there would be some exceptions made but specific Departments were not mentioned. Does the Minister expect exceptions will be allowed the health portfolio in terms of direct employment, particularly in the acute hospital system and front-line service provision?

In regard to child welfare and protection, which the Minister referred to at the end of his contribution, we were told last September that there was a signalled €60 million deficit by the year's end because of the significant increase in the placement provision for children with particular needs, some of whom had to be accommodated outside the jurisdiction. It was also suggested at the time that there was the potential to secure some €10 million in savings in the last quarter of this year, up to 31 December, through the introduction of certain efficiencies, as they were described. Will the Minister indicate how successful those attempts at introducing efficiencies have been? Will he confirm whether the figure of €60 million indicated in September for the deficit in child welfare and protection services still stands? Will he indicate whether savings of €10 million were secured or are expected by year end? In other words, are we looking at a deficit of some €50 million in the area of child welfare and protection?

There have been some uncertainties in regard to figures and dates provided, several of which I instanced this morning in the course of the Order of Business. In addition, one of my party colleagues pointed to a significant mistake, as we would see it, in the compilation of the figures relating to the Department of Health in the Budget Statement presented by the Minister for Finance yesterday. In the case of some of the financial resolutions we discussed last night, particular measures which were to have been introduced at midnight may not now be implemented until some time in 2012. The Minister is requesting €148 million in this Supplementary Estimate, yet he is indicating that there is a €40 million saving under an earlier Vote 39. Will he clarify whether the sum required is €148 million or €108 million? If a saving of €40 million was secured, would €108 million not suffice?

With the Chairman's agreement, I propose to respond to Deputy Ó Caoláin's questions before proceeding to questions from other members.

That is fine.

Just to give the Minister comfort, we intend to support the passage of the Supplementary Estimate.

However, I must first endure a laceration.

I am interested in what the Minister has to say.

I will happily do so on behalf of the patients and the service.

In regard to staff departures, 2,000 people have left under the voluntary schemes. In respect of financial emergency measures in the public interest, FEMPI, and the cuts in fees to pharmacists and GPs, the delay arose in terms of secondary legislation, that is, the statutory instrument. Under the FEMPI legislation, one must consult with the other side before making a decision. There is due process to be observed in this regard.

On the cost of agency staff, I will ask Mr. Woods to deal with that presently. It would cause a great deal of difficulty if we were simply to replace each member of staff who retires with an agency person. That is not what is intended. We want people to work differently, to new rosters and arrangements, so that we can fill the gaps and maintain services. That is what the reform is about, and that reform will continue in the context of further planned reductions in personnel in 2012 in the region of 3,000 from the current ceiling. The Deputy is correct that we will have flexibilities within that and we will certainly need latitude in terms of redeploying staff between different areas of the health service. Otherwise, we could not succeed in doing what we need to do.

Mr. Woods might comment on the question of efficiencies in the provision of child protection services. The Deputy referred to the error in the figures included in the budgetary documentation, which was astutely picked up by his colleague, Deputy Pearse Doherty. There is a typographical error in the first row of the right-hand column in that the figure of 219 should have read 179. However, the calculations are correct and the error does not change anything.

Deputy Ó Caoláin asked why, if we have secured a saving of €40 million, the Supplementary Estimate is not €108 million instead of €148 million. It is a reasonable question. What is involved here is a technical issue in terms of how things must be done under the Vote. We must seek a supplemental of €148 million before automatically handing €40 million back to the Exchequer, leaving us with €108 million. It is merely a technicality. The Secretary General may explain it further if he wishes.

Mr. Liam Woods

On the issue of child protection savings, the original estimation on a full-year basis was €70 million, so the savings we achieved are intended to bring it to €60 million. The main areas of saving are a reduction in the cost of special care arrangements that are privately contracted. In the second half of 2011 child care services have undertaken discussions with providers to reduce costs and they have been very successful in that. That is a significant contributor to bringing costs down.

In regard to agency staff, the level of agency costs in the services in 2010 was €169 million. The projected cost for this year - there are two months of data ahead of us - is some €200 million. In other words, there is an increase in the actual spend on agency staff. The largest increase by category is within the junior doctor category and the largest piece of that is in the first half of the year. We hope that recruitment in the second half of the year will ease that in terms of doctors coming in from abroad.

I thank the Minister and Mr. Woods for their replies. I appreciate the technical situation in regard to the €148 million versus €108 million. Nevertheless, it would be appropriate, given the seriousness of the €40 million discrepancy in the document presented yesterday in regard to the signalled yield in a full year, that a statement of clarification be given. This is not small change.

However, the overall figure at the bottom of the column is correct. It was a typographical error at the top, but that error was not incorporated into the calculation.

One of the items was overstated by €40 million.

Yes, but the bottom line figures are correct, which is the important part.

Nevertheless, it merits a correction in the House. It is a major issue.

I can do that this afternoon.

I apologise for being late on account of having business in the House. The background to this proposal is a situation where the health services, and hospital services in particular, are at breaking point. We now have an overrun this year to add to a significant cutback last year. Moreover, the Minister has indicated we are looking at something like another €800 million in 2012, which will have a serious impact on the continued provision of services for people who need them.

In regard to the €40 million in capital funding that was not spent, are there particular schemes which did not proceed or does the figure derive from savings over several schemes? In the case of activity levels in the hospital service, will the Minister indicate the expected data for this year and what those levels might be in 2012?

Deputy Ó Caoláin raised the question of the cost of replacing permanent staff with agency staff. Will the Minister give us some detail in this regard? The employment of agency staff is a significant cost and to continue with our own staff would be much more beneficial and cost-effective. I ask the Minister to comment on the position as regards collection of income from insurers, generally. Is the collection-----

We are dealing with the Estimate, Deputy Healy.

He might like to comment on it.

He will be in attendance tomorrow again if the Deputy wishes to put that question.

He might like to comment anyway as it is an area on which he has commented previously. The capital, the activity levels, the agency and the collection of income, are the issues.

Mr. Liam Woods will answer Deputy Healy's first questions. I will make a brief comment on income collection. Some of the hospitals are excellent in this regard. For example, St. James's Hospital has a 93.5% collection rate from insurers while other hospitals have been catastrophic in this regard as a result of non-co-operation and disorganisation. We are implementing new systems to deal with this in the new year. As I have said on many previous occasions, where we find islands of excellence we plan to transpose them across the system. One of the great failures in the past was that this did not happen.

On the issue of agency staff, the Deputy is correct. We want the system to address this question and we want the system to work differently and not to be dependent on agency staff. Where it is the case that the back is truly to the wall, so to speak, and people must be replaced, I do not think it is great value to use agency staff. I will still have to have the facility to use agency staff but I would much prefer to see new staff employed, especially young people such as nurses and doctors who have just come into the system, rather than using far more expensive agency staff. However, that flexibility is still needed. I cannot just open the gates and then hospitals decide they need extra nurses or doctors because, frankly, we cannot afford that. Even when we had lots of money and threw loads of money at the system, we did not fix it. The only way we will be able to fix it is through reform. Of course it would be preferable if we had more money as well but we do not have it.

I will ask Mr. Woods to address Deputy Healy's initial questions.

Mr. Liam Woods

As regards the statistics, for the month ending October 2011 compared with October 2010, day case activity is up by 3.5% nationally. This is a figure which includes all hospitals. Inpatient activity is up by 0.3% nationally.

As regards the €40 million capital sum, €15 million is unspent information technology capital and the balance refers to the bricks and mortar capital. Just to be clear, no projects are being affected and it is simply a time issue from our point of view. We have had some issues earlier in the year with getting projects up and running, based on capacity for project developers to have funding and bonding from the banks. This is causing a time delay but it is not fundamentally affecting the projects we are undertaking. All projects set out in our capital plan for the year are still proceeding.

If they have not started this year they will commence in 2012.

Mr. Liam Woods

Yes, or else they have commenced later than anticipated this year.

I have a few questions for the Minister based on the Estimate. The House debated the issue of travel and subsistence payments for HSE staff. Will this Estimate address this issue? Staff were issued with letters last week to inform them they would not receive their payments until the beginning of the new year. I ask the Minister to clarify the situation.

The Minister stated that the HSE will have a balanced budget by the end of the year. What will be the acute hospitals over-run for the year? Will this be carried over into next year, even though the HSE has balanced its books? The supply of junior hospital doctors seems to be a significant part of the agency costs. What is the cost of junior hospital doctors? If possible, will he supply a breakdown for the first half of the year compared to the second half of the year? I understand there will be challenges in the new year as regards the supply of junior hospital doctors. If this is the case-----

These issues are not within the realms of the Estimate.

I disagree. We are dealing with the acute hospital sector and one of the big problems was agency staffing. The committee was of the impression - as was the Minister - that this issue would be resolved in the second half of the year. I ask him to clarify if the issue will continue into the new year.

I have two other brief questions. This information may not be to hand but the Minister has made the point that the significant over-run in the child welfare and protection area has been due to special placements. I ask the Minister to give the committee an indication of the type of individual costs involved. I understand some of those children had to be placed outside this jurisdiction. I ask for information on the scale of costs and a profile of the children.

The Minister stated his intention to deal with insurance costs in the current year on which he is to be commended. In the past, however, members of the VHI have reported being incorrectly billed for a treatment or procedure but it seems they were wasting their time and the cost of the telephone call because the VHI staff could not have cared less what was being brought to their attention. Will the Minister ensure that this attitude in the VHI has been eradicated?

The Minister referred to the retirement of staff and the recruitment of new staff next year and he is also to be commended in this regard. I know the Minister is determined to deal next year with the issue of the drawing down of funding for the home help service. This did not happen in the current year. However, in order to do this, he will need home helps to be available. As a result of changes to the social welfare system and staff retirements, is it his intention to recruit additional home helps to meet the stated targets for next year? What is the shortfall in home help hours which have not been utilised in the current year? My own county has a poor record in this regard for the past number of years.

There are quite a number of questions for Mr. Woods to answer but I will answer those I can. The travel and subsistence payments will be paid. This was a case of a lack of communication. In some areas of the country, the money is due to be paid out on 30 December and it will be delayed until 2 January. There was very little delay in reality but it was communicated as if there would be serious delays in payment for many staff and I was not prepared to tolerate such a situation. We have to stay within our budget but we must pay our debts. This supplementary budget will help. All we are doing in that instance in any event is to kick it into next year and we would be starting from a debit side.

As regards the underlying deficit in the hospital sector, the rate has been reducing and we are now down to nearly €150 million. Mr. Woods can answer in more detail. The recruitment process during the summer for junior hospital doctors has considerably reduced our dependence on agency staff. There may still be some issues to do with staffing in emergency departments but Mr. Woods will address this question further.

As for Deputy Naughten's point about anecdotal reports regarding VHI, I have also heard lots of these stories and I am very disturbed by them. As the shareholder representing the people of Ireland, the sole shareholder of the VHI, I will be insisting that this is addressed. The Milliman report, mark two, will be helping the VHI to reduce its costs across a range of issues such as clinical programmes and the costs of procedures, how they are paid, debt collection, more accurate reporting, statistics on completed procedures and a forensic examination by a group of individuals who will query the appropriateness of these investigations in the first place. We are all aware of what occurred in other jurisdictions in relation to churning. I was at the butt of this practice on one occasion when I was offered all sorts of intravenous lines, blood tests and so forth while ill. I declined because I was aware my insurance bill was increasing. The appropriateness of some tests must be reviewed.

On home helps, we are spending €1 billion per annum on long-term institutional care and €125 million per annum on home help and other programmes in the community. The sum of €125 million provides services for 10,000 people, whereas the €1 billion sum caters for 26,000 people. It is clear, therefore, that money must shift from long-term care to providing care in people's homes where they much prefer to be.

Another issue arises regarding types of home help as there appears to be only one level of home help available. Some people require someone to come into their home to complete tasks such as setting the fire, helping with the washing up and preparing lunch. This requires an entirely different skill set from that required to help someone get out of bed, shower and get dressed. We need to consider the possibility of streaming the types of home help service we provide to make them more appropriate to individual needs.

Mr. Liam Woods

Junior doctor agency costs for the year to the end of October were €52 million. While I do not have half year comparisons, I can circulate the information to Deputies later. On the level of deficit and the notion of carrying it forward into the following year, the Deputy is correct to the extent that where there is a deficit it remains a problem within the run rate at the start of the following year. If we annualise our quarter three data for next year, we are, as the Minister suggested, moving closer to budget levels. Based on quarter three data, we believe the amount we will carry out of this year and into next year will be of the order of €149 million. This figure includes hospitals and child care. By way of contrast, the current deficit in hospitals at the end of October is €145 million. While the position is improving, the challenge for us is that it is not improving quickly enough to get to the end of this year. This improvement must continue into next year.

I will provide two types of information on child care cases and costs. The average costs of child care arrangements in the community vary between €50,000 and €200,000 but there are individual cases here and abroad which cost in excess of €1 million. The children in question would be very troubled. It is not my brief to comment on this matter, however. There are a small number of very expensive cases but the cost of the average case would be in the €50,000 to €200,000 bracket.

Is it possible to have an official come before the sub-committee to provide case studies that would give members an understanding of the type of issues we are discussing.

That can be done provided we do not breach confidentiality.

The Minister's opening remarks were interesting. Is it possible to have a copy of the document circulated as I did not have sight of it in advance?

That will be helpful in terms of following the various issues.

The take-up of the voluntary redundancy scheme was 2,000. How far does this figure fall short of what was hoped?

I will ask Mr. Woods to provide the figure. I must alert Deputies that I need to return to the Chamber at 2.30 p.m. to make my contribution on the budget.

I do not want to hold the Minister back.

If the matter I raise is not appropriate, I will raise it at another time. Is there a policy in the HSE of moving the goalposts in terms of funding allocations it provides to different organisations? I have in mind a particular drugs task force.

We are discussing acute hospitals.

Is the money provided for in the Supplementary Estimate allocated to hospitals only or will some of it be allocated to other facilities? I have been shown figures which indicate that a drugs task force, which believed it had a certain budget for the year, had some of its funding clawed back later in the year. Unfortunately, I do not have the relevant document with me. Is there a general policy in the HSE of clawing back funding when finances are tight? I am in the process of arranging a meeting with the Minister of State, Deputy Shortall, to discuss this and other issues.

I will allow Mr. Woods answer the questions.

Mr. Liam Woods

On Deputy Ó Caoláin's question, 2,000 people left the health service. Of the original provision of €250 million, we returned €147 million and spent €103 million. In other words, the departure of 2,000 people equated to a cost of €103 million. More than double this number of staff could have left the health service within the available resource, depending on salary level. Those who left typically had quite a low salary level. Approximately 3,000 more staff could have left under the allocation.

On the question as to whether goalposts are moving, the answer is "No". Under sections 38 and 39, the HSE signs contracts with voluntary providers. These are written agreements with a schedule of amount provided within them. There is no general policy of reducing the budgets of voluntary agencies in the context of moving through a year. If the Deputy wishes to refer to a particular case, I will be pleased to take the details and return to him with a response.

The case relates to the Clondalkin addict support group. Another problem experienced by the group and other organisations is that they do not know what funding they will receive in the coming year. Two similar organisations in Clondalkin have had to give protective notice to staff because they do not know what will be their funding in 2012.

I will allow the Deputy to raise this matter tomorrow when the committee meets representatives of the HSE.

I would like some clarity on this matter as the organisations in question are very concerned. It is impossible to operate effectively if one does not know what will be the position in the following year.

The Deputy raises a fair point which I will allow him to raise with Mr. Magee when he comes before us tomorrow.

Mr. Liam Woods

We are learning what will be our funding for 2012 through the budgetary process and in interaction with the Department. We move to the voluntary sector as soon as we have our position settled in our service plan, which we hope will be at the end of this year or beginning of next year.

It is pretty bad if an organisation does not know what will be the position in January.

I commend the Minister on his intervention on the travel and subsistence issue raised by Deputy Naughten. It is important that members who have incurred a cost while engaged in work are remunerated and for this reason I welcome the decision to pay the money.

On the issue of the moratorium, the one-size-fits-all mentality should not apply in the health service. In light of the remarks made in the Dáil on Monday by the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, I hope the Minister, Mr. Woods and the Health Service Executive will be able to review the moratorium in the health service. The Minister may make a brief concluding remark if he so wishes.

I will be very brief as I must leave to prepare for my contribution in the Dáil. I take seriously the matter raised by Deputy Dowds. In the new year, we want to have full control over all the budgets in the health service and have clarity on each budget line in order that we can see where money is going. I was deeply unhappy with the way in which things panned out under the fair deal scheme. It proved very difficult to figure out where the money went once it moved beyond the regional directors of operations. This will not be the case in future when we will have individual budgets for individual hospitals, community budgets, budgets for task forces, etc. I want to be able to follow every single cent the hard-pressed Irish taxpayer has put into the health service to ensure all of them receive the services they paid for and deserve.

I thank the Minister and his officials, Mr. Woods and members for attending the meeting.

I thank members for their support.

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