SELECT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, EQUALITY, DEFENCE AND WOMEN'S RIGHTS debate -
Wednesday, 5 May 2004

Memorandum of Understanding with Austria on a Weapons Systems Certification Testing Programme: Motion.

Acting Chairman (Mr. P. McGrath)

Before we begin, I remind members to switch off their mobile phones. I am sure Deputy Sherlock will be along in due course.

We are considering the terms of the following motion:

That Dáil Éireann approves of the Minister for Defence entering into a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) with Austria, which relates to a weapons systems certification testing programme for the Pilatus Training aircraft for the Irish Air Corps.

I welcome the Minister for Defence, Deputy Michael Smith, and his officials to the meeting. Members have been circulated with a copy of the text of the memorandum of understanding, together with the Minister's speaking notes. I now invite the Minister to make an opening presentation.

Minister for Defence (Mr. M. Smith)

I thank the committee for facilitating this discussion on the motion. I take the opportunity to outline the background to it and answer any questions members may have.

On 6 April the Government authorised the Minister for Defence to enter into a memorandum of understanding with Austria on a weapons systems certification testing programme for the Pilatus training aircraft being acquired by the Air Corps. Its approval was subject to the Dáil. Pursuant to the Government's decision, the following motion has been placed on the Dáil Order Paper:

That Dáil Éireann approves of the Minister for Defence entering into a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) with Austria, which relates to a weapons systems certification testing programme for the Pilatus Training aircraft for the Irish Air Corps.

In commending this motion to the Dáil, I will outline the background to this requirement.

Following a tender competition, a contract was signed on 16 January 2003 for the supply of eight turbo propeller aircraft for the Air Corps. The total value of the contract is €60 million approximately, inclusive of VAT. The newer aircraft will replace the Marchetti aircraft which are 25 years old in the pilot training role. The aircraft type is a Pilatus PC-9M manufactured by Pilatus Aircraft Limited, Switzerland. The aircraft will allow for the continued training of young cadets to the highest standard and are seen as a very realistic response to the needs of the Air Corps and the Defence Forces at this time. I am pleased to inform the committee that delivery of the aircraft has commenced with three of the aircraft arriving at Casement Aerdrome, Baldonnel on 21 April this year. The other five are scheduled for delivery in the coming months.

While the aircraft have been obtained primarily for pilot training, they will be capable of being armed. Similar to the Marchetti aircraft, they will have limited defensive capability. The armaments being provided are twin 0.5" calibre gun pods and two 2.75" rocket launchers.

The weapons system has to be subject to a detailed certification programme to be carried out on one of the eight aircraft involved. Certification will follow through to the other aircraft. Due to Swiss law, Pilatus Aircraft Limited is not in a position to carry out the weapons integration and certification in Switzerland. Neither is there any in-house capability in the Defence Forces to carry out the certification programme. Following inquiries, it has been ascertained that theAustrian Ministry of Defence is willing to support Pilatus and the Air Corps with the necessary technical information and expertise to carry out the certification, subject to a memorandum of understanding being agreed between Austria and Ireland. The Austrian air force operates Pilatus aircraft and has experience of the type of weapon systems involved. It is now tentatively agreed, subject to the signing of the memorandum of understanding, that the one aircraft to be used for the certification programme could depart Switzerland for Austria in the near future where it will remain until July this year.

The memorandum of understanding is to allow for a weapon systems certification testing programme with the aircraft which will consist of ground firing, air to ground firing and jettison tests taking place in Austria by the Austrian air force with the approval of the Austrian Minister for Defence. Air Corps, ordnance corps and departmental personnel will be in attendance as deemed necessary during the certification programme, the purpose of which is to carry out in a controlled environment the necessary testing, data gathering and analysis to ensure the fullest compatibility between the weapons suite and the aircraft as specified and delivered. The programme will identify and address issues which impact on the accuracy, reliability and safety of the complete weapons environment comprising the aircraft weapons suite and range area.

Within the provisions of the memorandum of understanding, the Austrian participants will facilitate the entry into and the departure from Austria of the aircraft and its weapons, ammunition and other material as well as the personnel of the Irish programme acceptance party in connection with the programme; provide all facilities, support and services necessary for the programme; and provide Austrian armed forces personnel for additional training to support the programme.

The Irish programme acceptance party will include members of the Air Corps, ordnance corps, departmental representatives and the Swiss contractor, Pilatus Aircraft Limited. The Irish participants will provide the aircraft, support and services necessary, as well as plan, lead and co-ordinate the programme, including the recording and evaluation of the results; assume responsibility for any damage and third party liability which may directly arise from any activity in connection with the programme and indemnify, defend and hold harmless the Republic of Austria from and against all damages, claims, suits and liabilities resulting or arising from or in relation to the activities of the Irish programme acceptance party and the Austrian participants personnel under the memorandum of understanding, excluding gross negligence and/or intent.

The aircraft associated with the equipment certification programme will be placed on the Irish military register prior to certification testing in Austria. This raises issues of insurance and liability with Pilatus with regard to the aircraft and possible third party claims. In this regard, Pilatus is accepting full liability for any claims that may arise during the testing programme and has provided confirmation of the necessary insurance cover for my Department.

The costs associated with the equipment certification programme have been provided for in respect of the contract between Pilatus Aircraft Limited, Switzerland and the Minister for Defence, which, as I have stated, is valued at €60 million, inclusive of VAT. The testing programme will take two months to complete. Unfortunately, the airbase will not be available after 15 July. It is desirable, therefore, that the memorandum of understanding is signed as soon as possible in order that the testing programme can begin. It is proposed that a senior official in my Department who is dealing with the overall contract with Pilatus will sign the memorandum of understanding.

Chairman

I thank the Minister. I am sure members have questions on the matter.

Mr. McGinley

I welcome the acquisition of the eight new aircraft. The Air Corps and the Defence Forces generally are both underfunded and under-equipped. In this context, the addition of the Pilatus aircraft and the replacement of the Marchetti aircraft, which I understand have been in use for more than 25 years, represents a welcome step. I note that the new aircraft will be capable of being armed and will have limited defensive capability, although, according to the Minister, they will primarily be used as training aircraft.

It is the weapons and defence component that must be tested in Austria. I wish to make two important points on this matter. First, the aircraft have limited defensive capability. If this country was targeted in a terrorist attack, it would not be able to mount an adequate response and would probably have to turn to the United Kingdom or other neighbouring countries for assistance. We seem to view the capabilities and responsibilities of the Defence Forces in a rather perverse way. While some will actually be reassured that the weapons capability of the new aircraft is so restricted, I do not view it in that light and believe Ireland needs a properly equipped Air Corps with the capability to protect the State and its citizens, especially in the light of the increased number of terrorist attacks since the Madrid bombing.

The Fine Gael Party has called for the establishment of an Oireachtas intelligence committee to assess new material that comes to light regarding threats to the country's security and ability to defend itself. It is time for the Oireachtas to receive the necessary independent information to assess our real security and defence needs. For countries such as ours, to continue to rely on ones neighbours for assistance is unacceptable but we need more than a legislative response when addressing security and defence issues. The Government and the Oireachtas should undertake a thorough review of our defensive capabilities and security needs. We cannot expect the security forces of the State to provide for our security needs with completely inadequate equipment and resources.

It is apparent that the testing the Minister has announced in this memorandum of understanding cannot be carried out here. Perhaps we should ask the reason we cannot carry out the necessary tests in this country? Have the Defence Forces been underfunded to such an extent that the testing cannot be carried out here? We need further clarification as to the nature of the testing involved and the reason it must be carried out in another EU state. The entire cost of the contract is €60 million. Is the cost of testing in Austria incorporated into this figure? What part of the €60 million will go to the Austrian Government and air force for the provision of testing facilities?

I take it that the contract was publicly advertised. What was the response? Was the Pilatus tender the lowest? Why was this aircraft chosen over others? While I welcome the acquisition of the new aircraft, it seems that Fine Gael is the only party which continues to believe the Defence Forces have an important role that requires them to be adequately equipped and resourced. Any expenditure on new aircraft to provide an air defence of our territorial integrity is to be welcomed.

Chairman

Does the Minister wish to address the questions in Deputy McGinley's contribution?

Mr. M. Smith

There may be similar questions from other members.

Chairman

If the Minister answers them now they will not arise again.

Mr. M. Smith

Air defence capability requires an integrated use of aircraft, radar and air and ground base weapons systems. The Defence Forces have always had a limited ground to air capacity. The new trainer aircraft will enhance the airborne elements of our air defence capability. However, we will still continue to operate a limited air to air and air to ground defence capability.

Regarding specific air defence equipment, the Defence Forces have one Giraffe mobile air defence radar with a range of up to 40 km and eight Flycatcher mobile air defence fire control radars with a range of 20 km. The Government purchased 24 Bofors L70 air defence guns from the Royal Netherlands Air Force following the events of 11 September 2001. These weapons are controlled directly by the Flycatcher radars and their projected capability allows for the simultaneous protection of four of our major airports plus a reserve. The Defence Forces also have six Bofors RBS missile launchers for use with the Giraffe radar. The radar systems have the capacity to detect overflights by aircraft and the air defence regiment are fully trained in the use of these guns. The weapons systems on the new Pilatus aircraft will provide a further capability in our air defence.

The Air Corps has traditionally discharged a mix of functions based on the need to supply a range of services such as search and rescue, fishery protection and ministerial transport. This country traditionally has a very limited military air capability. Aspirations to broaden the range of available air base capability are understandable but have to be balanced against real world constraints. Given the enormous cost involved, few small countries possess the ability to provide a comprehensive air-based defence capability. The choice must lie between maintaining the essentially token force to address all dimensions of national defence or seeking to perform a selected range of tasks to a professional standard. The latter option has been chosen in Ireland. There is no significant armaments industry here and the level of expertise in any specialised area is therefore not available. It must be acquired from international sources and Austria was chosen because it has much experience with Pilatus. The total contract covers the initial €60 million for the eight aircraft.

The claim can always be made that the Defence Forces are under-resourced, but the Government has made spectacular improvements in recent years in accommodation and equipment on all three fronts. The main thrust of the Defence Forces work is in peacekeeping in East Timor, Liberia and Kosovo. Decisions had to be taken on the essential things that were needed such as medical equipment, drops and armoured personnel carriers to maintain these missions and to take the safety of our troops into account.

Chairman

How much of the spending on equipment for overseas activities can be recouped from the UN?

Mr. M. Smith

Nothing can be recouped for equipment. The costs of the missions are undertaken by those countries involved. We received a refund from UNIFIL in Lebanon and from UNMEE in Eritrea. However, provisions such as medical equipment, armoured personnel carriers, drops and field hospitals must be financed from our own resources. It is likely to be even more like that in the future.

Chairman

The Minister did not answer Deputy McGinley's question on tendering. Was there a tendering process? How many tenders were submitted? How was a particular tender selected?

Mr. M. Smith

There were three tenders which met the overall specifications. The procurement team, a civil military group established in my Department which assesses the tenders, considered Pilatus to be the most advantageous.

Chairman

How did they compare on price?

Mr. M. Smith

I do not have the prices with me but I will try to forward that information to the committee. Once it had met the specifications, I do not know of any case where I have accepted anything other than the lowest tender. There would have to be exceptional reasons for not doing so.

Mr. Sherlock

The aircraft were purchased from a Swiss company, Pilatus Aircraft Limited. We welcome the fact that the aircraft were purchased from a neutral country. Is the Government intending to purchase any further aircraft? Can the Minister outline the cost of each of these aircraft and of any further aircraft to be purchased? What type of work and exercises would be undertaken by the aircraft? To what extent does the acquisition of these aircraft improve the ability to adequately defend Irish air space should the country be attacked by aircraft hijacked over the Atlantic? Does the identification of Ireland as an ally of the US rather than a neutral country and the ongoing use of facilities at Shannon Airport by the US military render Ireland a potential target for terrorist attacks?

Mr. M. Smith

Three of these aircraft have arrived in Baldonnel. The next five will arrive before the end of June, making a total of eight and costing €60 million. There are no plans to purchase any further trainer aircraft of this kind, but I hope to make an announcement in the next week or so on other aircraft for the Air Corps that are not trainer aircraft.

We have Marchetti aircraft, which are trainer aircraft with a light air capability. These aircraft have been the main trainer aircraft in the Air Corps for the past 25 years. They are still valuable but are coming to the end of their life span, taking technology changes into account in the interim period. Air Corps cadets must be trained to the highest standard and they need modern aircraft to do that. The new aircraft are therefore primarily for training, although they have a light air defence capacity. In the Dáil I explained the problems small countries faced in intercepting rogue aircraft, particularly given the short distance between Ireland and its main neighbour. No small country is able to deal with this without assistance from neighbouring countries or, in our case, the European Union.

A range of questions surround this issue, the answers to none of which would have assisted us in regard to the Madrid bombings or other recent atrocities. They include the determination of what is a rogue aircraft, whether those on board an aircraft could gain control, where it would be brought down, and how fast and to where it was travelling. There are difficult security questions and I do not want to go into any great detail on the subject except to say that, on the basis of the security circumstances in this country and the threat assessment as understood by the Garda Síochána, no small country can afford to have aeroplanes in a state of readiness with pilots available for a particular type of attack which one is not even sure will happen. I have often said that if this problem cannot be dealt with where attacks are being planned and if correct intelligence cannot be gathered to ascertain the situation within terrorist cells, the opportunity to deal with a threat will be extremely limited, notwithstanding best intentions. This is so, even for the larger powers, which has been proven.

The assessment of the threat to Ireland is consistently described as extremely low and nothing that has happened in regard to facilities at Shannon Airport or elsewhere has changed this. This is an independent, sovereign country. We have never been an oppressor and our troops have been welcomed all over the world on various missions. Nothing has happened recently to change this threat assessment. Having said that, there is never room for complacency. Nonetheless, we are doing our best to make sure emergency planning is of a nature to deal in a cohesive way with whatever problems may arise.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh

As the Government has already authorised the Minister to enter into this memorandum, it is too late for a real debate, although the Minister said Government approval was subject to the approval of the Dáil. The opening for this certification limits us as we must have it passed within one week because, as the Minister stated, the process requires two months. As the Zeltweg airbase will be closed as and from 16 July, I am not sure whether it will be possible to slot in the Irish party before then. The opening dates from 15 March.

While the Minister may not agree that there is a need for much debate, questions arise in regard to the aircraft involved and the fact that they were purchased by Slovenia to improve its air defence capabilities, to bring itself into line with NATO standards in its bid for NATO membership. Is our purchase of the aircraft an attempt to bring our defence equipment into line with that of NATO or to make it inter-operable with the EU rapid reaction force? While the aircraft can be used for training, they can also be used for light attack, as outlined in the memorandum which refers to the transfer of weaponry, rockets, 0.5" calibre ball ammunition and other requirements. Is this part of a gradual change of equipment to make it inter-operable in line with the changes the Government has introduced in the context of its recent about-face on Partnership for Peace and the failure to introduce a proper neutrality protocol in the Nice treaty?

What exactly is involved in the certification programme? It is odd that the company involved, Pilatus, is not in a position to carry out a weapons integration and certification programme in Switzerland, the country where the equipment is produced. Why is it not available in a neutral country such as Switzerland?

Why are Belgium and Switzerland referred to in Annex 1 of the memorandum which states the responsibility of the Austrian participants is clearance for support aircraft from Ireland, Belgium and/or Switzerland? I presume the certification refers to the testing of weapons and aircraft purchased by Ireland. The sale was pushed on the basis that the aircraft were vital to the Air Corps for training purposes. If so, there should be no urgency in testing weapons capabilities.

How many Air Corps, ordnance corps and departmental personnel will attend and what is the cost of their attendance? The Minister has told us the cost of the tests is covered in the purchase price but not the cost of the attendance of representatives.

Mr. M. Smith

This has nothing to do with NATO. The purpose is to replace the Marchetti aircraft which we have used for the past 25 years for training our pilots. We require these aircraft if we are to take a sensible approach to modernising the Air Corps and giving trainee cadets the opportunity to train in state-of-the-art aircraft. This has nothing to do with Partnership for Peace, NATO or the EU rapid reaction force. I have emphasised on several occasions, as has Deputy McGinley, the need for greater resources to re-equip the Army, Naval Service and Air Corps. This is a fundamental aspect of that proposition.

The memorandum of understanding has not been rushed into the House. Three of the aircraft are already available in Baldonnel. The other five will come on-stream later this month and in June. As far as certification is concerned, one only has to think about how, when adding a machine gun or rocket launcher to an aircraft, the balance and fitting must be right in order that it will not interfere with safety in training or flying. It must be integrated fully into the system. Members talked about increasing our air capacity. It would be very strange, therefore, if Air Corps pilots were not trained how to use the new weaponry. It would make no sense at all if they were not trained to carry out this function, limited though it is.

Belgium is mentioned because the weapons are manufactured there. There is no other reason.

I do not know if there were any other questions.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh

What about the cost?

Mr. M. Smith

As with everything else, personnel from the Department, the Air Corps and elsewhere travel to be involved in the process of certification to make sure everybody will be familiar with the equipment used. There are no exceptional costs involved. It would make no sense whatsoever to have the certification programme conducted in Austria without Air Corps and departmental personnel being familiar with it.

Chairman

These are training aircraft. I presume our pilots are travelling to Austria to learn how to fly them and that they will then come back and train new cadets and trainee pilots. Is that correct?

Mr. M. Smith

Considerable training on the aircraft has already been provided in Switzerland. It was our pilots who flew the aircraft from Switzerland to Baldonnel. This has to do with the certification and application of the weapons involved.

Chairman

Will new pilots be trained at home?

Mr. M. Smith

Yes.

Chairman

Regarding the point about weaponry, there will be testing facilities in Austria where our pilots will be trained. What will happen when they are training new pilots in the future? Do we have testing facilities here or will they have to return to Austria to train new pilots in the use of weaponry?

Mr. M. Smith

One will not have to use the testing apparatus. The firing will be done here.

Chairman

There will be test firing here.

Mr. M. Smith

Yes.

Chairman

The Air Corps has trained a lot of pilots but there has been a heavy haemorrhage to the commercial sector which, effectively, has been getting trained pilots on the cheap from the State. What is the current position? Is there still a haemorrhage of pilots or has it been controlled with the result that we are no longer training them and letting them go straightaway?

Mr. M. Smith

There was a dramatic upward swing in civil aviation the mid-1990s. Naturally, highly trained and sophisticated pilots in the Air Corps represented an attractive proposition for civil aviation and, as the Chairman rightly said, there was a haemorrhage. To counteract this, we introduced a scheme to provide pilots with an incentive to stay in the Air Corps. This worked well and the exodus has more or less come to an end. We do not have the problem to any significant degree but four or five years ago it was a very worrying development.

Mr. McGinley

When the aeroplanes are delivered, does the Minister envisage a significant increase in the number of pilots in the Air Corps as a result?

Mr. M. Smith

I should have said that, once commissioned, pilots must remain in the Air Corps for 12 years. Regarding the Deputy's question, I am not sure. It is a competitive arena. We make sure there is a constant stream of new pilots each year.

Chairman

How many trained pilots are there in the Air Corps?

Mr. M. Smith

The total number stands at about 80 who are at different stages of training. About ten to 12 are taken in each year.

Chairman

That is also the level of wastage.

Mr. M. Smith

Exactly.

Chairman

It remains constant.

Mr. M. Smith

Yes. I have not looked at the figures for a while but that is my recollection.

Mr. Sherlock

I will be very brief. Will the Irish take full responsibility for liability and other costs? If so, there is the question, to which the Minister alluded, of how classified information or material exchanged under the memorandum of understanding will be protected. Will Irish costs be reimbursed?

Mr. M. Smith

Pilatus undertakes to meet the cost of the business arrangement. As I indicated, this is covered in the total cost——

Chairman

The guarantee.

Mr. M. Smith

Yes, it has given us specific guarantees. I did not catch the Deputy's other question.

Mr. Sherlock

According to the Minister's statement, the Irish participants have assumed overall responsibility to reimburse the Austrian participants for all costs incurred by them.

Mr. M. Smith

We will pay €60 million for the eight aircraft involved. I understand this figure covers all aspects of the matter. We will pay Pilatus and it will then underwrite us in regard to any mishaps in terms of developments in Austria. We are buying the aircraft at a cost of €7.5 million each, which includes the cost of certification.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh

I asked two questions to which I did not receive full answers. What exactly is involved in the two month certification programme? The Minister said that, due to Swiss law, Pilatus was not in a position to carry out the weapons integration certification programme in Switzerland. What specifically prevents it from engaging in this activity?

Mr. M. Smith

If we were in a position to conduct the negotiations on the basis that everything would be done in Switzerland, that would be the preferred option but it was not open to us under Swiss law. The company indicated to us what it could and could not do. I cannot go into the technical aspects of the certification programme beyond saying, as a lay practitioner, that the guns are being fitted and integrated into the aircraft. They will then be tested. I am told that the purpose of the certification programme is to carry out in a controlled environment the necessary testing and data-gathering analysis to ensure the fullest compatibility between the weapons suite and the aircraft as specified and delivered. The certification programme will identify and address issues which impact on the accuracy, reliability and safety of the complete weapons environment, comprising aircraft weapons suite and range area.

When we think about it ourselves without having the technical expertise, this is about a basic integration of these guns into the aircraft and, following from that, the question of their reliability in firing and so on in the right environment.

Chairman

Is the motion agreed? Agreed. Is the draft report relating to it, which was circulated, agreed? I thank the Minister and his officials. We will of course meet the Minister again next Wednesday in regard to the Estimates for his Department. I suggest to the Minister that the committee would perhaps like to visit Baldonnel one day and see these aircraft.

Mr. M. Smith

We had anticipated that this question might arise and we would be very happy to make those arrangements, not just in terms of Baldonnel but any of the installations the committee might like to visit at any time. This may arise in the context of the Estimates also.

I thank the committee for facilitating us in this matter and assure members that we will ensure that the best possible arrangements are put in place and that we continually improve, as the committee would want us to do in any case, the arrangements for our Air Corps. If other aspects of our activities arise in the course of the Estimates or other business we would be happy to facilitate any visits by the committee but, in the first instance, we will make arrangements for the committee's visit to Baldonnel to see the aircraft.

Chairman

The Clerk of the committee shall be in contact and will arrange the visit accordingly.