It is significant that this section clarifies that the District Court does not need positive proof of the Attorney General's direction or a ministerial direction. The fact it is not necessary to bring these matters before the District Court does not mean they may not be subject to judicial review at some stage in the future.
SECTION 14.
Question proposed: "That section 14 stand part of the Bill."
Question put and agreed to.
Sections 15 and 16 agreed to.
FIRST SCHEDULE.
I move amendment No. 21:
In page 11, between lines 23 and 24, to insert the following:
"17. Membership of an illegal organisation in Northern Ireland.".
My amendment may not be drafted in the most comprehensive manner, but I would like the Minister to consider it. What happens if the head or a member of the UVF is charged with membership of the UVF and he comes to stay in Dublin? We cannot extradite him to Northen Ireland to face that charge and unless the courts in the Republic have the evidence to prosecute him for the same offence here, he is immune from prosecution as long as he stays south of the Border. Perhaps the phrase "illegal organisation in Northern Ireland" could be given a more definite meaning. It seems ridiculous to exempt someone from extradition to Northern Ireland if they jump bail or come south solely to avoid prosecution for being a member of the UVF or the IRA.
I cannot accept this amendment to the First Schedule which proposes to insert an offence regarding membership of an illegal organisation. The purpose of the First Schedule is to identify those offences which are likely to be committed by terrorists and which could not be regarded by civilised people as being political. In particular, the schedule is aimed at acts involving violence, firearms and explosives. There is general agreement that the offences listed at present should not come within the political offence exemption. However, to include an offence which does not involve violence or firearms or explosives is questionable because it will undermine the entire credibility of the Bill. For this reason I oppose the amendment. Neither myself nor my officials know of an offence in Irish law which could be described as "membership of an illegal organisation in Northern Ireland". All the offences specified in the Schedule are offences under Irish law.
I accept that "membership of an illegal organisation", probably contrary to the Offences Against the State Act, would have a more definite meaning. Organisations are proscribed because they are terrorist organisations, not because they offend people. Is it possible that someone who is charged with a terrorist offence or is a member or an organisation, for example the UVF in Northern Ireland, and can be arrested as long as he is north of the Border, cannot be extradited once he drives south of the Border? That seems extraordinary. I want to know how it would undermine the credibility of the Bill if a person, who is charged with membership of the UVF, comes south where nothing will happen to him.
Presumably, membership of an illegal organisation is not a terrorist offence. It is a common law offence, as membership of an organisation is not an act of terror. Would such an extradition be covered by the normal common law extradition provisions or is it necessary to specify membership of an illegal organisation in the terrorist definitions? Can one be extradited under existing arrangements for membership of an illegal organisation?
That is my point. I agree with Deputy Mitchell. At present somebody who is charged with membership of the UVF could drive to the South and claim that such membership was a political offence. Thus he could claim that he is not be liable for extradition to Northern Ireland. It is possible, therefore, to evade justice in Northern Ireland on a charge of membership of a terrorist organisation there, whereas we ought to send the person back to face the charge. That applies to the IRA as much as to the UVF.
Although it is not specified in the Bill that somebody who is charged with membership of an illegal organisation can be extradited, that does not mean that the person cannot be extradited. The person can be extradited by virtue of the fact that the person is a member of an illegal organisation. It will be a matter for the courts to decide whether that is a political offence.
That is my point. It is obviously a political offence. How can the courts decide that membership of the UVF is anything other than political? It is a classic political offence by any definition.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
First Scheule agreed to.
SECOND SCHEDULE.
Amendment No. 22 not moved.
Question proposed: "That the Second Schedule be the Second Schedule to the Bill."
We have been discussing penalties. One of the penalties being discussed in the media at present is the fines system. I resent and deplore any attempt to restrain the Minister's powers with regard to fines.
That matter has already been extradited to the other House, because Deputy O'Donnell and I will debate it on the Adjournment.
I look forward to hearing that.
Question put and agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Report of the Select Committee.
I propose the following draft report:
The Select Committee has considered the Extradition (Amendment) Bill, 1994 and has made amendments thereto. The Bill, as amended, is reported to the Dáil.
Report agreed to.
Ordered to report to the Dáil accordingly.
I pay tribute to the members of the committee, particularly the Opposition spokespersons, for their constructive contributions on this sensitive Bill. I also pay tribute to the Minister and her officials for their support and co-operation, particularly Mr. O'Brien and Mr. Martin, who gave the members an informative and helpful briefing early this morning.
I thank the Opposition spokespersons and those who made contributions, regardless of length, for their co-operation on what is sensitive legislation. I also pay tribute to my officials who have worked long and hard. They are probably the most hard working officials in any law division of any Department. In addition I pay tribute to you, Chairman, for ensuring that we completed Committee Stage today.
The Select Committee adjourned at 4.5 p.m.