Select Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media debate -
Wednesday, 8 Feb 2023

Vote 33 - Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media (Revised)

Chairman

We have received apologies from Deputy Mythen. This meeting has been convened to consider the Revised Estimates for Public Services 2023: Vote 33, programme areas A, B, D and E, which was referred to this committee by Dáil Éireann.

I welcome the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, and the Minister of State, Deputy Byrne. The Minister of State is particularly welcome. It is his first time in front of this committee in his new role. I congratulate him and we look forward to working with him.

As the Minister and Minister of State are present, it is not expected that any officials would have to speak in the public session. I also advise the meeting that the opening statements and any other documents that have been submitted to the committee may be published on the committee website after this meeting.

I will invite opening statements from the Minister and Minister of State. These will be followed by questions from members as we consider each programme area. It is proposed that questions will be taken as members indicate for today's slots, rather than our normal speaking slots so I ask members to indicate.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I also remind members of the constitutional requirements that they must be physically present within the confines of Leinster House to participate at the committee's public meetings. I cannot permit a member to attend where he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. I ask members to identify themselves when contributing for the benefit of the Debates Office staff preparing the Official Report. I ask that members joining us by Microsoft Teams, please mute their microphone when they are not contributing to reduce the background noise and feedback and use the button to raise their hand when they wish to contribute. Finally, may I also remind all of those joining today's meeting to ensure that their mobile phones are on silent or, better again, switched off.

Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media (Deputy Catherine Martin)

Fáiltím roimh an deis labhairt leis an Roghchoiste um Thurasóireacht, Cultúr, Ealaíona, Spórt agus Meáin agus Meastacháin Athbhreithnithe 2023 dar luach €1.066 billiún san iomlán do Vóta 33 do Réimsí Clár A, B, D agus E á mbreithniú. Tá áthas orm sonraí a sholáthar maidir leis na bearta suntasacha chun tacú leis na hearnálacha a bhfuil mé freagrach astu agus chun iad a neartú, agus iad éascaithe ag an maoiniú seo. Táim an-sásta deis a fháil labhairt leis an gcoiste maidir le príomhthosaíochtaí mo Roinne agus an fhís a leagan amach do na hearnálacha luachmhara fairsinge seo. Cuireann na hearnálacha seo go mór le geilleagar na tíre, agus tacaíonn siad le folláine an duine aonair agus an phobail ar fud na hÉireann chomh maith.

Almost one year after pandemic restrictions ended, these sectors now face challenging economic conditions with high inflation and energy costs putting pressure on businesses. They must tackle the urgency of climate action so we can safeguard our planet for future generations. And of course they must play our part in Ireland’s response to the war in the Ukraine. As we have so often done in hard times, these sectors continue to reinforce our resilience, solidarity, and understanding; and support society’s cohesion and well-being.

Total funding for 2023 for the sectors supported by my Department is as follows. In relation to tourism: Funding for Fáilte Ireland for 2023 amounts to €94.7, this is to help drive the sustainability of our tourism sector, boost industry recruitment and retention and facilitate the establishment of a register of short-term letting properties; continued additional funding of €15 million for the tourism marketing fund, giving a total allocation of €63.2 million for overseas marketing of Ireland and the development of The Invitation project; Tourism Ireland funding of €20.8 million; €36.5 million for tourism product development; €4.5 million for Ireland-EU just transition tourism funding to support ambitious climate action through the promotion of sustainable tourism; and €7.75 million for the Brexit adjustment reserve fund to grow tourist numbers and associated revenues from Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The Minister of State will brief the committee in more detail on the position in respect of sport.

Prior to the onset of Covid-19, the tourism industry generated revenue of almost €6 billion supporting over 260,000 livelihoods equating to one in ten of all Irish jobs. Post pandemic, Irish tourism had a strong year in 2022,. Continued rebuilding lies ahead, however. Our primary focus now is on the sustainable development of this important economic and social sector, and marketing the island of Ireland as a desirable and competitive destination for both overseas visitors and domestic tourists.

We must remind ourselves that 2021 was an unprecedented year for arts and culture against the backdrop of the pandemic and the extensive restrictions that were still in place.

Venues were closed or restricted to very limited audiences. Survival was the primary focus. Thankfully, this has all changed since early 2022. Against this backdrop significant levels of funding have been maintained with total funding for the arts and culture sector in 2023 amounting to €356.982 million.

The budget provides for: retention of the record €130 million funding for the Arts Council in recognition of the transformational impact of this funding and to support the sector; €35 million for the basic income for the arts pilot scheme, supporting 2,000 artists and creative arts workers; funding of €30.2 million for cultural infrastructure and development including €7 million for artists’ spaces and climate adaptation measures, which will allow for progress in the ongoing programme of investment in our capital institutions including at the National Library of Ireland, the National Archives of Ireland and the Crawford Art Gallery; €11.5 million for the newly extended Creative Ireland programme, including a new shared island dimension; €6.6 million in funding for Culture Ireland for the promotion of Irish arts worldwide, an increase of €2 million on the 2022 allocation; €72.1 million for the national cultural institutions to ensure the continuation of their high-quality services to the public; additional funding of €1 million for Screen Ireland giving a total record allocation of €37.9 million for the continued implementation of the Government’s ten-year audiovisual action plan.

I should mention the wonderful success of Irish film at the Oscars this year, with a record number of nominations for "The Banshees of Inisherin" and with "An Cailín Ciúin" making history for the Irish language on screen. This is a testament to the levels of investment, support and continued development of the screen industry in Ireland.

The budget also provides: a €3 million allocation towards the cost of developing a new archive and exhibition space as part of the overall national centre for research and remembrance; and €500,000 for supports for artists and arts workers as part of the Safe to Create programme, co-ordinated by Irish Theatre Institute, in collaboration with Minding Creative Minds.

Funding for the media and broadcasting sector in 2023 will total €306.64 million and represents an innovative package which supports the sector from grassroots community radio and local newspapers to audiovisual media services and online regulation. The budget provides in particular for €7.8 million for the establishment of coimisiún na meán, the media commission, which will oversee effective regulation of online safety, support the provision of high-quality public service broadcasting, and put in place an expanded development and support framework for the wider media sector. I recently announced the appointment of new commissioners, including the Online Safety Commissioner, and they will take up their positions on an administrative basis next week. I intend to commence key provisions of the Online Safety and Media Regulation Act and formally establish an coimisiún next month.

An increased allocation of €7.3 million to TG4, will enable the launch of a new dedicated children’s channel, Cúla4, in September. This will be a totally new channel, operating from morning until the evening. It will include a children’s news service, entertainment and education content, drama and Irish animation. It will reflect the diverse backgrounds of children living in all parts of Ireland, but particularly in Gaeltacht and Irish-speaking communities. Its development will also support new jobs through the commissioning of additional content.

A total of €6 million has been allocated to establish a local democracy reporting scheme and a courts reporting scheme which will support local, regional and national media on a platform-neutral basis. These schemes will be the first of six new schemes recommended by the Future of Media Commission. Separately the technical group examining television licence reform will deliver its recommendations to me next month. That report will be brought to Government in due course.

Gabhaim buíochas le mo chomhghleacaithe Rialtais as a dtiomantas leanúnach do na hearnálacha a ndéanann mo Roinn ionadaíocht orthu, ar chodanna ríthábhachtacha dár ngeilleagar iad. Go deimhin, tá ár bhféiniúlacht, comhtháthú sóisialta, agus folláine fhisiciúil agus mheabhrach bunaithe ar na hearnálacha seo.

The Minister of State, Deputy Byrne, will address measures in the area for sport for 2023. I officially congratulate him on his appointment and I am looking forward to working with him.

Minister of State at the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media (Deputy Thomas Byrne)

Tá áthas orm an deis seo a thapú chun labhairt le comhaltaí an choiste den chéad uair mar Aire Stáit don spórt agus don chorpoideachas inniu agus tá mé ag súil le plé leis an gcoiste sa tréimhse atá romhainn. Gabhaim buíochas leo as an bhfáilte a chur siad romham. Inniu, ba mhaith liom nuashonrú gairid a sholáthar ar an ngné spóirt d’imleabhar Mheastacháin Athbhreithnithe 2023.

Sa chomhthéacs sin, tá áthas orm soláthar €175.236 milliún a fhógairt do sheirbhísí spóirt agus fóillíochta i 2023. Soláthraítear €99.3 milliún sa bhuiséad do Spórt Éireann arb ionann é agus 57% den leithdháileadh iomlán don chlár spóirt, chun tacú le spórt ardfheidhmíochta. Tabharfar deis do Spórt Éireann leis an maoiniú seo leanúint ar aghaidh ag tacú lenár n-eagraíochtaí spóirt agus téarnamh leanúnach in earnáil ríthábhachtach an spóirt a chinntiú tar éis Covid-19 agus aghaidh a thabhairt ar dhúshláin reatha. Cabhróidh an maoiniú linn freisin chun bogadh i dtreo na sprice de rannpháirtíocht iomlán 60% ar a laghad sa spórt faoi 2027.

Soláthraítear i gcodanna eile den leithdháileadh foriomlán do mhaoiniú €34.5 milliún nó 19.7% de leithdháileadh iomlán an chláir maidir le deontais do chomhlachtaí spóirt agus soláthar áiseanna spóirt agus fóillíochta; €14.6 milliún do thionscadail bhonneagair spóirt ar mhórscála; €6.4 milliún chun tacú le hiarrachtaí chun imeachtaí spóirt ar mhórscála ardphróifíle a mhealladh go hÉirinn; €12 milliún trí mhaoiniú na gcuntas díomhaoin chun rannpháirtíocht sa spórt agus san aclaíocht a chur chun cinn agus a chothú mar chuid de chur chuige spórt do chách.

Maidir le maoiniú 2023 don chlár um chaipiteal agus trealamh spóirt, is ionann é sin agus €34.5 milliún. Ina theannta sin, coinníodh an maoiniú don chiste infreastruchtúr spóirt ar scála mór ag na leibhéil reatha chun a chinntiú go bhféadfaidh ár mbonneagar spóirt ar fud na tíre leanúint ar aghaidh ag fás agus ag forbairt chun freastal ar leibhéal éileamh atá ag dul i méid sa réimse seo. Tabharfar tús áite do roinnt réimsí spóirt don bhliain 2023 freisin lena n-áirítear forbairt straitéis snámha náisiúnta agus forbairt bheartas mór-imeachtaí. Tá obair ar siúl faoi láthair maidir lenár gcomhthairiscint do Euro 2028 agus déanfar cinneadh freisin i mbliana an ndéanfaimid tairiscint do Tour de France a óstáil.

Is tír mór le rá í Éire i réimse an spóirt anois mar gheall ar infheistíocht leanúnach an Stáit, mar aon le héachtaí ár gcuid lúthchleasaithe, ó thaobh rannpháirtíochta agus ó thaobh acmhainne chun imeachtaí a bhfuil tábhacht dhomhanda leo a óstáil. Tá an spórt i gcroílár ár bpobail agus cuireann sé le saol bríomhar gníomhach. Téann tiomantas an Rialtais don spórt ní hamháin chun sochair do shláinte fhisiciúil an náisiúin ach tá an cumas ann freisin cur le comhtháthú sóisialta tuaithe agus uirbeach agus forbairt shóisialta agus folláine na sochaí a fheabhsú. Sin é an gealltanas a thugamar agus an rud a bhfuil mé ag díriú air mar Aire Stáit.

Chairman

We will move on to questions and observations from colleagues. Deputy Dillon is the first and only one here so far today. He may address whichever programme area he likes.

Deputy Alan Dillon

I welcome the Minister and the Minister of State. I congratulate the Minister of State and look forward to working with him at this committee and in his endeavours in sport and physical education.

How do the Revised Estimates compare with previous years? What factors have led to changes in the funding allocation. The briefing documents indicate an 11% decrease on the equivalent figure for Vote 33 in 2022. I ask the Minister to provide an update on that.

Deputy Catherine Martin

It should be noted that budget 2022 was cast in a time when the impact of the Covid-19 pandemic on the sectors my Department supports was still all-encompassing. The 2022 budget contained funding aimed at supporting those sectors through the worst of the pandemic when many of them were in complete shutdown. The total allocation for 2022 was €1.276 billion, with €1.074 billion in current expenditure and €202 million in capital expenditure. Of the €1.074 billion in current funding, €290 million was provided on a once-off basis for Covid-support measures for initiatives including supports for live entertainment, sport and business-continuity funding in the tourism sector.

This was all aimed at ensuring these sectors were sustained through the pandemic and would then emerge in a healthy position. The scale of that intervention in 2022 was hugely significant for the sectors. My Department’s demonstrated support underlines the commitment of the Government to supporting these sectors and how much we valued these sectors through the pandemic.

As we emerged from the pandemic, in budget 2023, thankfully, there was no longer a need for the scale of intervention in respect of Covid-19 that was required in 2022 because the restrictions had been lifted. However, the sectors supported by my Department are not completely recovered from the impact of the pandemic and therefore there is an ongoing need to support the sectors as they seek to fully recover. Accordingly, the 2023 budget for my Department contains some once-off funding of approximately €98 million, not as much as was required in 2022 for the reasons I have outlined, but still quite a significant amount. Hence, there is an overall fall in the total budget for 2023 compared with 2022 caused by the reduction in overall once-off funding of €121 million. Overall, the reduction year on year on the face of the budget is due mainly to the reduction in once-off funding from €219 million to €98 million.

Deputy Alan Dillon

I thank the Minister for the update. Certainly, that €219 million in once-off payments was a huge lifeline to many businesses, performers and sporting organisations across all domains. The Government stepped up when it needed to step up in 2022, and that has to be commended.

Deputy Catherine Martin

I would point out that even though it has reduced from 2022 to 2023, before I was Minister the Revised Estimate, REV, gross total for the Department was €802 million, whereas even given the reduction in the last 12 months, the 2023 gross Revised Estimate is €1.166 billion, so it is still a significant increase in the last three years of this Government.

Deputy Alan Dillon

In the Vote we are discussing today, are there any new initiatives that will receive increased funding? What impact does the Minister expect this additional funding to have in these areas?

Deputy Catherine Martin

Some €15 million in additional funding has been secured for overseas marketing of Ireland. The budget always contains an additional €15 million for a range of industry initiatives, including investments in skills development and retention of €3 million, and a €2 million increase in funding for domestic marketing to promote Ireland's tourism offering to Irish holidaymakers. I have also secured additional long-term funding for the hosting of the American college football classic every August out to 2026. This will provide a strong boost to the sector in 2023 and we would expect 40,000 overseas visitors for this years Notre Dame versus Navy game. There is also additional funding of €3 million to allow Fáilte Ireland to continue its work in the area of sustainability. Of course, there are other allocations of €36.5 million for tourism product development. We have the basic income for the arts and that €35 million is secured to support 2,000 artists in that pilot scheme. We have €30.2 million for culture infrastructure and development, €11.5 million for the newly extended Creative Ireland programme, €7 million for artists’ spaces and climate adaptation measures and, of course, €6.6 million in funding for Culture Ireland, which is an increase of €2 million on the 2022 allocation. The list is quite extensive and I can get the Deputy more detail if he wishes.

Deputy Alan Dillon

One area is subhead A3 on Fáilte Ireland. The 2022 Estimate was in the region of €149 million and the 2023 estimate is €94 million, so we see a substantial decrease of over €55 million in the Fáilte Ireland allocation for 2023. Is there a reason for this?

Deputy Catherine Martin

The 2022 budget was cast at a time when the impact of Covid was devastating for the sector. On the face of it, as I noted earlier, the budget for tourism has fallen from €290 million to €231 million, a drop of €59 million. Of course, there was the €50 million for business continuity supports which Fáilte Ireland distributed but they were not needed because, thankfully, the Covid pandemic restrictions were lifted.

Deputy Alan Dillon

With regard to the capital programme and tourism product development, such as visitor experience centres, what delivery was achieved in 2023 and what allocation has the Department provided for capital projects in 2023 across all of our regional visitor experiences?

Deputy Catherine Martin

Does the Deputy mean delivery of actual projects in 2022?

Deputy Alan Dillon

Yes, project delivery. Was there any carryover in capital spend for 2023?

Deputy Catherine Martin

We might come back to the Deputy on that.

Deputy Alan Dillon

My focus here is the execution and delivery of capital projects. I know there was a welcome announcement on the delivery of surfing centres, and allocations were made to two in Mayo, at Carrowniskey and Achill Island. The frustration locally is the time it takes from approval of these projects to when they are actually delivered. I know both are costed in the region of €800,000, so there is a significant spend. It is just to understand the delivery and who is assigned to monitor the spend around capital projects.

Deputy Catherine Martin

Those water-based Platforms for Growth initiatives that were announced will be going to planning now. Mount Congreve Gardens will open in March and I hope to be down there for that. I was at Knowth and Brú na Bóinne, which opened in 2022, the Blasket Islands centre opened in 2022, the Céide Fields opened in 2022, and the National Famine Museum was another that I opened last year. That amazing treetop walk at Avondale House and Forest Park opened in July 2022 and the Patrick Kavanagh Centre experience is another one that I opened in 2022, and the Chair, Deputy Niamh Smyth, was at that. Johnstown Castle, Kilkenny Riverside Gardens and the Shackleton Gardens were in 2021, but we can see there is quite a list for 2022, and I was quite busy opening various places around the country. That is good for tourism.

There is one in the Deputy’s constituency, the Mary Robinson Centre and presidential library in Ballina. In 2016, my Department awarded a grant of €2 million towards the cost of construction and fit-out of the Mary Robinson Centre. Mayo County Council is the project promoter and procured development funding of over €5 million for that project. Mayo County Council has advised my Department that the project is on track for opening to the public in the summer of this year.

Deputy Alan Dillon

I thank the Minister for the update on that regard. I might ask the Minister of State, Deputy Byrne, in regard to sports and recreational services, the factors that may have led to a decrease in spending for sports and recreational services in the 2023 allocation, and to provide an update in that regard. I know the Sport Ireland allocation has significantly decreased but I am sure it is related to the issues that were previously discussed.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

It is exactly as the Minister outlined in terms of the entire Department. First, the 2022 budget was cast at a time when Covid was still a thing; in fact, it is still a thing but I mean when it impacted on activities, keeping clubs open and so on. The 2022 budget had funding to support sectors through the worst of the pandemic. If we look at the sports budget, diving deep into the figures, we will see a drop of €41 million but €15 million of Covid-related funding was received in 2022, which is Sport Ireland supports related to the pandemic, and €35 million in respect of the cost-of-living crisis.

Separate Covid supports are no longer required and that explains why the Vote provision has fallen. In fact, it has increased if those provisions are left out. I am quite happy that Sport Ireland will be able to continue providing the services it does and doing the work it does to enable sports to function in this country and those at the highest level to compete internationally.

Deputy Alan Dillon

How is the review of the sports capital and equipment programme being undertaken? When does the Minister of State expect a report to be issued? Will a new scheme open in 2023?

Deputy Thomas Byrne

It is the intention to open a new scheme. We are finalising the review of the sports capital programme. I came in at Christmas and have been looking at the document. The sports capital programme is popular and many of my constituents are asking me the same question the Deputy has asked. The total allocation under that programme has been €1.15 billion since it was founded in 1998. The last sports capital programme gave out unprecedented funding. Clubs are very good at spending that money and the Department is good at administering the programme to ensure clubs can spend it. We will finalise and publish the review Discussions are under way with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform and with the Minister, Deputy Donohoe. I have had brief conversations with him, as have officials, about opening the next round. We will do that. My predecessor said it would be January or February. I do not think it will be February but we want to do it as soon as we can because we know clubs are waiting for it and we know how important it is for clubs and their facilities.

I am conscious the World Cup in Australia will lead to a huge increase in women and, particularly, girls wanting to play soccer. That will translate to other sports and heighten the profile of women in sports. That will mean new facilities will be required at various clubs around the country. That has been a feature of recent years as we have had more inclusion in sports. The sports capital programme will be reflective of that, I imagine, this year.

Deputy Alan Dillon

It is good to hear progress on that. I have raised previously in this committee the topic of Ireland putting itself in a position to bid for major sporting events. Will the Minister of State provide an update on the work going on in the Department to support these initiatives?

Deputy Thomas Byrne

This is important work. We as a country have consistently demonstrated our ambition to attract major international sports events that make a positive return to the economy, to tourism and to participation in those sports. Bidding is under way to host the Euro 2028 football championships jointly with the United Kingdom nations and Northern Ireland. The Minister has mentioned the US college football classics. There is the Europa League final. The Ryder Cup is taking place in 2027. These are huge events and there is much work ongoing on the events which have been agreed to be held here and on those we would like to host. There will be at some point a decision to be made as to whether we will seek to host the opening stages of the Tour de France in three to four years’ time. The Minister has worked on that, particularly on the Northern Ireland side.

We are drafting a major sports events policy at present that has not yet been finalised. It will be important to have that framework done. We have had much success in the projects we supported and the benefit they bring to the economy. The policy will set out our stall for the future in terms of how we do this and the criteria we use. The Department will look at the costs to the State of helping to host these events versus the benefit the events bring in. The US college football classic brings in a huge number of tourists to the country and will do so again this year. There is a massive benefit to that. We will continue to do that. In the first half of this year, I suspect we will be in a position to finalise that policy. That will be a good document, particularly if we are looking for events or people are coming to us looking to host events. This is something for which people knock on the door of the Department all the time. They will see the criteria, the kind of questions they will be asked and what is expected of them and of the Government. That will be an important policy document when finished and approved by Government.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Does the Minister of State expect that by the end of April?

Deputy Thomas Byrne

Yes, I think so.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Is there a specific unit in the Department working on major sports events?

Deputy Thomas Byrne

There is. In the Department’s offices in Killarney there is a specific unit under a principal officer dedicated to these issues. It is very busy at the moment. There is much work going on, for example, on Euro 2028.

Deputy Alan Dillon

There are huge opportunities there. We need a whole-of-government approach to these major sporting events.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

I am keen to have a regional focus as well. We see that with the Ryder Cup but there are other opportunities as well. It will not all be in Dublin. Dublin has obvious advantages in terms of the stadiums there but there is room for regional focus, as well as a focus on wider participation in sports and reaching our targets of having 60% of the population physically active or participating. Using these major events to encourage that is important.

Deputy Alan Dillon

We have the Ryder Cup in Adare and Euro 2028. Are they the main key strategic projects the Department is focused on? What have we learned from past applications, such as the unsuccessful Rugby World Cup bid? Have we moved on in relation to our offering to host these events or is it a case that we put a policy document together but there are not substantial funds to ensure we have enough hotel beds or proper transport infrastructure to support the stadiums? How do we look at this over the long term?

Deputy Thomas Byrne

I was not involved in previous bids but even the process of bidding requires much work involving various bodies. It is not just the Department, but also Tourism Ireland. It could involve the Garda, local authorities or the National Transport Authority. It is a multi-agency approach and the questions you get asked when bidding for these events encompass all those things. How do people get to the game? How is it secured? Those things are important. The more of them we do in practice, the more experienced we get as a Department and as a system in how to host them. We get things in place that carry through for a future event. Each time there is positive learning which feeds into our policy. They bring benefit or we would not host or pay for them. There are some examples members will have read about in the media where the previous Government decided not to proceed because the cost-benefit analysis did not stack up. We will agree to host some and not agree to host others. If a tourism benefit, a positive cost-benefit analysis for the country, increased participation and help for various sports can be shown, we have an open door to talk to people. That will be easier for the Department and those seeking to host the event, whether sporting bodies or international organisations, with that policy document in place.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Sport Ireland received €99 million in the 2023 Estimate. What is the breakdown of funding allocated to each of the national governing bodies under the remit of Sport Ireland? Has that been completed yet?

Deputy Thomas Byrne

The funding that goes to the national governing bodies will be announced next Tuesday. A large part of that money will go to the various national governing bodies. It is very important-----

Deputy Alan Dillon

Are there any initiatives that Government-----

Deputy Thomas Byrne

There are various initiatives Sport Ireland does in terms of high performance, facilities at its campus and women in sport. All of that is important. We are saying clearly to the national governing bodies that if they do not have a minimum of 40% of either gender – let us face it; it is women basically – on the board, we will look at the funding. There will be significant funding cuts as of next year for national governing bodies that do not have 40% women on their board.

I was glad to meet representatives of the Irish Rugby Football Union, IRFU, this morning. It has publicly committed to meeting this target.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Has the GAA?

Deputy Thomas Byrne

The GAA has said it will do it. The Deputy is a prominent GAA member himself and I encourage him to encourage the organisation to comply with this provision, because it must happen.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Yes.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

We do not want to be in a situation where we must cut funding, whether this be funding from Sport Ireland or from other sources. Frankly, however, the organisation's members will not like the fact that it has not got 40% of women on the national governing board.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Yes.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

At the moment, we are very much taking a carrot approach. We are encouraging people to do this. We have seen the IRFU say it will do this. An FAI board member resigned on the basis that a woman would be appointed in his place. I have also spoken to the GAA and made this point clearly. It is extremely important.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Will there be sanctions?

Deputy Thomas Byrne

We have not worked out what the sanctions would be. What I have said is that there would be significant funding cuts.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Okay.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

I think this is fairly strong. We have just not set out exactly what these sanctions will be, but they will be significant. I honestly think, though, that it is in the best interests of organisations to do this. Boards and organisations in general will be better with this diversity, as will sport itself. I do not think, frankly, that members will accept anything else and this is not an unreasonable thing to ask governing bodies to do.

Regarding the key areas of funding in the context of Sport Ireland, I mentioned that an announcement will be made next week regarding the national governing bodies. There is a special unit for high performance. There is also campus development, at the national sports campus. Women in sport is also an important priority. I refer as well to the general administration and services provided to governing bodies and to sport in general. These are the main areas on which the organisation spends money and we see good results from it. There is a very good set-up there. It gives great help to sport and we are seeing success come from the work that Sport Ireland is doing. It is able to nurture the talents that people have to allow them to be successful on the world stage. Additionally, this is not just about excellence and success. Those aspects are important, but so is getting more people participating in sport, which is a key objective of the Government.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Under the Minister of State's remit, I see he is also responsible for physical education. This is a great initiative to move forward and to link physical literacy and activity, well-being, etc., into our education system. How does he see these areas working in tandem and trying to get a grassroots movement happening across all contexts, whether those are local sports partnerships or national governing bodies, to ensure that young people have physical activity and an opportunity to be coached and to enjoy sport as a recreation? I refer to those who are competitive as well having a pathway towards local and national competitions. We have moved to having physical education now as a leaving certificate subject, but a lot of work still needs to be done in the primary school curriculum.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

This is a new initiative the Tánaiste, Deputy Micheál Martin, was very keen on having and that I would be there as a Minister of State linking the two Departments. There are many positive linkages we can have. Basically, this is about what the Deputy has said, namely, increasing participation in sport and physical activity. This is the really important part. Physical education as a subject in the leaving certificate is very important, but many more people are not doing leaving certificate physical education. This is the case in primary school and other levels as well. We must, therefore, ensure that physical education is available. We can ensure that we build up strong links between schools and sports. We already have seen several good examples of this type of endeavour, where schools work well with their local sporting communities. I also recognise, however, that this can be difficult for sporting bodies and schools in terms of administration, insurance, etc. There are all these issues that I want to tease out.

I have had some excellent discussions with the Minister for Education, Deputy Foley, and the relevant officials as to how we can undertake this work. This is a new position in the Department, so we have been working out exactly how we will do this. The Department of Education is very enthusiastic about this endeavour and I am already set up there. We will have a team there working on this matter, which is important. It is not normal for this to be the structure in the Department of Education. The full details of the arrangements are being worked out as we speak and I think we will have a really beneficial role. Ultimately, there are many joint initiatives in our national sports policy between this Department and the Department of Education. As a starting point, therefore, my new role can help to bring these together and to bring these endeavours to fruition and get the benefits for people. I am not in the Department of Health, but ultimately there are also health benefits too. I refer to enjoyment and local communities working much more closely together.

Chairman

I thank the Minister and the Minister State. I will be brief. Starting with the Minister, I have two observations to which she may or may not wish to respond. In her opening statement, the Minister alluded to the important part and role our tourism industry has played during this awful war in Ukraine to house the refugees coming here from that country. We have had many hearings prior to this year. There is deep concern regarding Government contracts coming to an end in the hospitality sector for these hotels and tourism venues that are currently housing refugees. Does the Minister's Department have any insight concerning how many venues are considering coming out of those contracts? How many beds will the tourism industry get back? This is important as well, because I know all those working in the tourism sector want to get back into that area of welcoming visitors for tourism purposes. The knock-on effect of this development, however, will be the question of how many people this will put on the streets and ultimately under more pressure with their housing departments. Do we have any insight concerning the number of beds that will go back into the tourism industry or that are no longer going to be continued with under these Government contracts?

Deputy Catherine Martin

Between now and the end of March, I believe 224 contracts will come up for review, but it is the Department of the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, Deputy O'Gorman, that will be dealing with this matter. We do not yet have a line of sight on this issue but we keep in close contact with that Department for obvious reasons. My Department officials are on the senior officials group which deals with these issues.

Chairman

The number of contracts that will come up for review is-----

Deputy Catherine Martin

Between now and the end of March, 224 contracts will come up for review.

Chairman

Okay. When there is the opportunity to ask, I am sure the Minister is inundated with inquiries from the tourism sector, as I am, on the need for it to hold on to the 9% VAT rate. From what I am reading, many jobs and businesses are fragile now. Every industry is crippled by not being able to get the skills and labour force required. I see it more and more in parts of our hospitality sector, and particularly the hotels. These have cut back on the number of days there are open to the public. Much of this comes down to staffing, etc. I just want to take this opportunity to say, and I know this is not the remit of the Minister but that of the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael McGrath, who will be making this decision, that there is a credible argument in the context of this industry to ask that the 9% VAT rate continue.

Moving to the Minister of State, I wish to follow up on the conversation he had with Deputy Dillon. I missed a little bit of it because I had some catching up to do. There is a gap, as I see it, where schools are developing and increasing their footprints at exponential rates. Major investment will bring top-class facilities into our primary and secondary schools. Where the gap in this regard is appearing and becoming more obvious is in the sporting facilities to complement this development. Many teaching and management staff have come to me to tell me these developments are fantastic but that there is a need to match this with the physical education and outdoor activity facilities. This is at both primary and secondary school levels. Their only place for them to go at the moment is to the Department of Education. I wonder if the Minister of State could expand a little more on these negotiations underway. Does the Minister of State see this gap being filled?

Deputy Thomas Byrne

No, I do not mean to say there are negotiations going on. It is just that there has not been a Minister of State in either Department with special responsibility for physical education. It is, therefore, just a question of trying to get the different strands in the Department of Education together to deal with physical education.

That Department is not set up on a structure based on subjects. It is set up by various other means that are logical for the administration of the education system. We want to do more but to do it together. We will bring things together through the Department of Education's capital programme and what our Department has to do. The starting point is to look at what is stated in the national sports policy and to get both Departments to work very closely together, which, to be fair, they do. I hope that my appointment will be a renewed impetus to move even further forward and develop this because it is important. It is a very important Government priority to have more and more throughput.

Chairman

Is it true that, up to now, the only Department that could help or facilitate schools with the provision of sports facilities was the Department of Education? The Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media is not in a position to provide funding for that type of infrastructure in schools at present. Is that correct?

Deputy Thomas Byrne

The Department of Education provides its infrastructure. However, schools can apply under the sports capital programme in partnership with sports clubs. There are a number of examples of that. We have seen difficulties with that at times because sometimes the owners of schools, which, generally speaking, are diocesan trusts, are unwilling to sign the necessary paperwork to make an application when it involves coming together with a sports club. From our Department's point of view, schools can apply but our condition is they do so together with a sports club. What the Department of Education does as regards its facilities, building schools and a PE programme is totally separate. Where there are facilities in schools, we want to make sure the community has as much access as possible to them, provided the schools get priority and it does not place a huge administrative or cost burden on those schools. These things are to be worked out but, ultimately, that co-operation will be very positive.

We strongly encourage schools to apply to our Department under the sports capital programme. We also encourage dioceses that own these buildings and sites and do not allow their schools to take part in this to reconsider and look at those schools and sports clubs that do take part and see how successful it is for them and the communities served by them.

Chairman

It is only in recent years that I have seen the impact sports capital funding is having in every parish throughout the country. It has been a huge help and impetus, and great for building an architecture in rural parishes where it is having such a positive impact. The Department should keep doing what it is doing. It is great for many rural communities that do not have that many other facilities, and where their sporting facilities are their temples, to have that kind of money for car parks, dressing rooms and so on. The emphasis the Department has put on the criteria around women in sport and female participation in clubs and so on is slowly but surely making a difference. That is great.

Just this morning, St. Brigid's National School, Meath Hill, contacted me regarding what it is doing. The projects happening in schools to encourage activity are amazing. The school has a park-and- stride initiative - the Minister of State knows this school is in the heart of the country - that is about getting parents to park their cars almost a kilometre from the school, walk with their children to the school, bring their bikes and so on. It is great to see those kind of initiatives happening to try to nurture that.

Deputy Munster has joined us. I am sure she has some questions.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I apologise for being late. My time management today has gone out the window.

When I arrived, the Chair was asking the Minister about the 9% VAT rate and the current lobbying to retain it. I know this is not strictly the Minister's decision, but we had conversations previously with regard to the exorbitant prices hotels, especially in cities, are charging and the reputational damage this is doing. Other countries have managed to separate hotels from the remainder of those who can avail of 9% VAT. Has the Minister given any thought to that, given the outrage all of last year regarding the price gouging that was going on? People who could not afford to holiday at home found that weekends abroad, including flights, were one third cheaper than what they were expected to pay for one or two nights in a Dublin hotel or a hotel in a major city. Has the Minister given any thought to that at all?

Deputy Catherine Martin

We also have to consider that much of our tourism is outside the capital. Much of that industry supports 260,000 jobs. It is one of the most important and significant employers of indigenous industry in the country. I have sought the extension of the lower VAT rate for tourism but, ultimately, that is a decision for the Minister for Finance. As the Deputy knows, all supports needed for the cost-of-living crisis, which was possibly not as significant a feature for this industry last summer as it is now, are currently being reviewed. Any decision made on that will be in the context of the wider supports needed for society. Decisions will be made on that in the coming weeks. I sit on the Cabinet sub-committee that will be briefed on that in the coming weeks.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Is the Minister not concerned about the cost of hotel rooms? We quoted some prices at committee previously. A one-night stay in a particular Dublin hotel cost more than €1,000. That did not include breakfast. It was an extra €56 if someone wanted breakfast. Other hotel rooms cost upwards of €400 per night. Does the Minister question why those hotels that charge those sorts of prices for rooms, which far exceed those in any other city in Europe, need the retention of the 9% VAT rate? Plenty of other hotels in the country are offering great value for money but the hotel accommodation costs I referenced are doing long-term reputational damage both to the country as a whole and to foreign and domestic tourism.

Deputy Catherine Martin

My main concern and priority as Minister is that last year cannot be seen as a true reflection. It was a very successful year for tourism. It was much better than we imagined but it cannot be seen as the baseline. I am conscious, having met with industry representatives, including the Irish Tourism Industry Confederation and from co-chairing a meeting of the hospitality and tourism forum last week, that there are concerns about what 2023 will look like and the reality of the immense cost of living and cost of maintaining businesses for hotels.

As regards the VAT rate, we have to remain competitive to attract tourists from other EU countries. That is why I seek that VAT rate. However, as I said, this will be a whole-of-government approach. It may be something I am seeking but we have to look at the wider supports.

Deputy Imelda Munster

To follow up on that, to retain the VAT rate in order to remain competitive is fair enough for businesses that are not charging those exorbitant rates, but it is hard to justify how the prices I referenced are competitive when they are compared with other European countries. I did not come across one single person that was not outraged when they looked to holiday at home last year, or even go to a concert in Dublin, and saw the prices. They were off the scale. I just cannot see where the tie-in is with being competitive in continuing with the 9% VAT rate for those who are charging those prices. How on earth is that competitive? It just does not register with me at all.

Deputy Catherine Martin

The VAT rate is for us to remain competitive. If we went back up to-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

How are those hotel charges allowing us to be competitive? Do they consider those charges competitive?

Deputy Catherine Martin

I said during our previous discussion on this issue that in my engagement with the sector I always stressed that the emphasis must be on value for money in order that tourists will return. The vast majority of hotels did not charge excessively. Sometimes, there is an awful lot of emphasis on cities, and not on rural Ireland and the value of the industry in supporting employment there. I have a broader focus on supporting a sector that, as I said, supports more than 250,000 jobs.

Deputy Imelda Munster

As already stated, there are hotels in the country that are offering excellent value for money. That reputational damage will also damage them in the long term, if it is not stopped or measures are not taken to encourage such hotels to offer proper value for money as opposed to just talking about it.

Table 2 shows a €6.5 million carryover for arts and culture, a €2 million carryover for the Gaeltacht and an €11.5 million carryover for sport. Is this funding already earmarked for projects? Does it relate to projects that did not go ahead?

Deputy Catherine Martin

The €11.5 million carryover is for sports capital and the €6.5 million carryover is for cultural infrastructure.

Deputy Imelda Munster

The €11.5 million is for sports capital.

Deputy Catherine Martin

Yes.

Deputy Imelda Munster

The €6.5 million-----

Deputy Catherine Martin

-----is for cultural infrastructure.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Do these funds relate to projects that did not go ahead? Are they for projects that are scheduled to go ahead?

Deputy Catherine Martin

It is taking time to progress them. It is to aid the progress of those projects.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Is the €6.5 million for a particular project or is it for several projects?

Deputy Catherine Martin

It is for national cultural institution projects. There is a range of projects under national cultural institutions capital development.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

Some of the sport projects are demand led. Clubs might not have come in with a final request to draw down money. They might have been allocated money in previous years. It is for local and regional projects and it is on the clubs. The money has to be kept.

Deputy Imelda Munster

It is earmarked.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

It is earmarked already.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Do we have a date for the sports capital grants? The Minister of State might have announced it earlier.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

No, I have not. We will have it as soon as I complete discussions with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. We are finalising a review of the previous programme, which was very successful. We are looking at what we can do even better. Once we get agreement from the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, it will be open. We hope to do it sooner rather than later.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Will it be prior to Easter?

Deputy Thomas Byrne

I cannot commit to that but certainly it is our desire to do it fairly quickly.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Will there be additional funding compared with other years?

Deputy Thomas Byrne

That is the question under discussion at present. The point is that the last round, which has been drawn down to only a very small extent so far - that is normal - was the most successful ever, and the most money was given out to communities throughout the country.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Was that the €60 million?

Deputy Thomas Byrne

No, it was €150 million.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Was that over a couple of years?

Deputy Thomas Byrne

It was allocated in the last round at this time last year. The clubs, in their own time, complete projects. I do not have the exact figure in front of me but what would be normal is that 10% to 15% would be drawn down in the first year. It can go on for a long time in some cases. There is a very small percentage of clubs that never finally complete the drawdown, for whatever reason. This is something for the clubs themselves. We expect more drawdowns this year. To answer the question in clear terms, there is €150 million available, and €16 million of this is for equipment under a great programme that clubs are becoming increasingly aware of. It was opened in late 2020. We expect a 15% drawdown in the first year and a 35% drawdown in each of the second and third years. That has been the norm over the years for the sports capital programme.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Hopefully we will hear the announcement soon.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

Sorry, the total was €166 million. The €150 million was strictly for capital and there was another €16 million for equipment.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I have a question on Fáilte Ireland's funding, which is €94.7 million. Are there key performance indicators linked to this substantial amount of funding? There was an additional €4.5 million from the EU just transition fund to support climate action and sustainable tourism. Do we have detail on how this will be spent? Will it deliver physical infrastructure or will be for advertising?

Deputy Catherine Martin

Under just transition funding, the tourism end of the plan includes allocations of €38 million under the regenerative tourism business supports and €30 million for the tourism trails network. Under strand 1, the midlands trails network will receive €30 million funding. That is a strategic network of trails to interconnect with the existing arterial greenway network. This is infrastructure for walking, cycling and water-based trails. Strand 2 covers amenity supports for businesses. This is a fund of €25 million. It is to support public, private and community based tourism enterprises to support and expand existing regenerative and sustainable tourism infrastructure. This will help local economies. Strand 3 covers alternative low-carbon accommodation and amounts to €3 million. This is for carbon-neutral and low-carbon small-scale developments at key strategic locations aligned to the trails network in strand 1.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Is that in the midlands?

Deputy Catherine Martin

Yes. Strand 4 covers smart solution development which has funding of €10 million. This is a programme of hard and soft supports to help deliver smart technology and digital solutions. It is for commercial digital experiences for visitors, prioritising the potential to be green.

With regard to Fáilte Ireland Deputy Dillon asked what are the key indicators. They are what we see in delivery. Deputy Munster is probably familiar with Knowth, which opened last year, as did the Blasket Island centre, the Céide Fields, the National Famine Museum in Strokestown, the treetop walk at Avondale House and the Patrick Kavanagh visitor centre experience, which is located not too far from Deputy Munster. I had the pleasure of returning home to open that. Looking at what was delivered is the best way to assess it.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

I thank the Minister and Minister of State for attending. My question is for the Minister. How aware is she of the campaign from the Irish Self-Catering Federation on a request for consultation and discussion on Fáilte Ireland's registration of short-term lets. Its representatives visited Dublin last week and I thought they put their case to us pretty well. The federation is absolutely in favour of a register for short-term lets. We are all acutely aware of the shortage of long-term rental properties and housing. The federation feels very much that there is a disparity between the impact it will have on regional areas and more peripheral tourism areas. I can speak about how it would impact west Cork where there are some very vibrant tourism businesses and very vibrant short-term lets. We hear anecdotally that a lot of accommodation in Kinsale is taken up with short-term lets and Airbnb, which removes the availability of properties for the rental market. This is an issue we need to tackle. At the same time, and in the same rent pressure zone, there are people with coastal cottages in Barryroe, which is a good distance from Kinsale. Of course they will be asked to register, but there will be an unfair impact.

I have seen situations where people may have built or received planning permission for a granny flat for their elderly loved ones. After their elderly loved ones passed on these people may have converted the granny flat into a short-term let to provide very important income. In order to register a short-term let, people will have to apply for planning permission. What I have seen so far in these instances is that because local authorities seem to resist planning permission for this type of unit and there do not seem to be clear guidelines, applications are being turned down.

Local authority planners seem to resist giving planning permission for these types of units. As stated, there do not appear to be clear guidelines. Applications are being turned down. The example I gave is replicated hundreds of times right across the west Cork area. I am asking, in a very long-winded way, how aware the Minister is of that and if there will be consultation. I know the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage has a role to play in this as well, but I would like to hear the Minister's opinion. We need to introduce short-term letting but not in a way that will negatively impact the very important provision of tourism accommodation in areas that depend on tourism.

Deputy Catherine Martin

The proposed registration of short-term tourist letting Bill will not change existing planning permission requirements regarding short-term lets. The planning permission side is the responsibility of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. I know this is an issue that was raised with officials from that Department by members of this committee. The main issue seemed to be around the need for clear planning guidance to ensure that the short-term lets are dealt with sensibly, in particular in rural areas. That is what Deputy O'Sullivan is indicating in what he has shared with me. That is also what the Department of the Minister for Housing Local Government and Heritage, Deputy Darragh O’Brien, is cognisant of. The Department gave a commitment that it would issue new planning guidelines to planning authorities to assist them in adopting a sensible approach. I am very cognisant of what the Deputy says about rural areas.

On engagement, when the general scheme of the registration of short-term tourist letting Bill was published before Christmas, briefings were held with the key tourism stakeholders and major online platforms. Since then, Fáilte Ireland has arranged more than 30 briefings. My Department met with the Irish Self Catering Federation last week. The focus of that meeting was the federation's concerns regarding the planning regulations for short-term letting. It is something that was also raised with me and the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Coveney, when we co-chaired the tourism and hospitality forum last week. My Department is committed to convening a round-table meeting with key stakeholders next week, which will include the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

I thank the Minister for the response. I appreciate that there will be a level of consultation. Could I make a formal request to the committee as part of the pre-legislative scrutiny process? I know that the Irish Self Catering Federation has been invited to make a written submission. I would like to see the group come in and be physical witnesses at one of our sessions of pre-legislative scrutiny. I want to put that on the record.

Chairman

Could Deputy O'Sullivan hold that thought please? This is the select committee, and we would have to do that at the joint committee. The proposal will have to wait until the joint committee meets next.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

That is okay. As long as my comment is noted.

Chairman

Does Deputy O'Sullivan have any questions for the Minister of State,?

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

No, I will leave him off the hook this time.

Chairman

He is getting an easy ride the first time. I thank the Minister and the Minister of State and their officials for their assistance. While the officials did not speak, we could see that they were ably assisting the very competent Ministers. That concludes the consideration of the Revised Estimate.

I propose that the committee go into private session to consider any other business. We will allow a few minutes for the Ministers and their officials to withdraw from the meeting. Is that agreed? Agreed.