Dáil Éireann Debate, Tuesday - 8 October 2013
57. Deputy Charlie McConalogue asked the Minister for Education and Skills if he will ensure that there will be no increase in class sizes or the pupil-teacher ratio in budget 2014; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [42410/13]
View answer61. Deputy Jonathan O'Brien asked the Minister for Education and Skills if he has carried out an impact analysis on increasing the pupil-teacher ratio in primary and post-primary schools. [42471/13]
View answerI propose to take Questions Nos. 57 and 61 together.
The context for any discussion about pupil-teacher ratios or class sizes is that my Department, like all other Departments, is operating within a budgetary programme that is designed to return the Government finances to a sustainable basis. My focus is on ensuring we have school places and teachers for the thousands of additional pupils entering our schools each year. I will consider all of these matters with my Cabinet colleagues in the context of next week's budget. The Government will endeavour to protect front-line education services as far as possible. This must be done within the context of bringing our overall public expenditure into line with what we can afford as a country.
I thank the Minister for his response. Given that the budget is taking place next week, I was hoping for something more reassuring from the Minister, such as an understanding of the pressures teachers are facing in schools as a result of the current pupil-teacher ratios. Media articles in recent weeks have given rise to speculation that there may be an increase in those ratios. The Minister has indicated on several occasions that he might have to consider such an increase. He has refused to rule it out on the floor of the Dáil on a couple of occasions. I am disappointed that the response he has given today is not stronger. I understand that all will be revealed in next week's budget. The Minister has indicated before now that up to €100 million could be taken out of the education budget. Fianna Fáil's position is very clear - education spending and services should be protected. While I appreciate that it is difficult to find savings elsewhere, that is what the Government should try to do. Up to 30% of students are in classrooms of over 30 pupils. I urge the Minister to elaborate in his response on how pupil-teacher ratios might be protected in next week's budget.
I do not know whether the Government will increase the pupil-teacher ratio next week. The Minister probably knows by now whether that will happen. If a decision is made to go down that road, can we get an assurance that some sort of impact analysis has been done on the effect an increase will have on schools?
We already have 23% of pupils being taught in classrooms of more than 30 pupils. I have all the figures. In my area of County Cork, we have one class of 41 pupils while in Monaghan there is another with more than 40. If we are looking to increase the pupil-teacher ratio, we must first recognise that there is a difference between pupil-teacher ratio and class sizes. Has the Department analysed what effect any proposed increase would have? If so, will the Minister confirm what has been done?
I would like to tell the Deputies more information if I could be sure what I told them would be what happens on budget day, but I cannot be sure about that until final figures are agreed on the overall macroeconomic framework, a matter that was discussed at Cabinet today. Each Department is focused on what it wants to do or avoid in the spheres of education, justice or wherever. Other Departments may have difficulties which may not be confined just to their own Department. The Minister for Public Expenditure and Public Reform, Deputy Howlin may have to come back and look at all the Departments. Although I am aware of the broad I stress that there are seven days until next week and, as Harold Wilson once said, "A week is a long time in politics".
I am conscious of the impact of large classes. There are disputes about what the full impact is, but the DEIS schools would not in any way be affected by PTR changes for reasons that the Deputy might share, and we are looking at the other schools. It is more difficult to teach a larger class. We could start looking at the reasons why some classes are so exceptionally large, but the PTR has not been changed since this Government came into office.
The class sizes have increased.
We should be looking at why that is happening.
I ask Members to move telephones or iPads away from the microphones because something is interfering with the sound.
It is clear from the figures released, particularly in larger growing urban areas where the PTR and the allocation of teachers lags a year behind, that there are severe issues. We need to give more attention to that separate matter because it is creating pressures. As the Minister for State will know, a series of meetings have been held across the country over the past two to four weeks in which teachers and parents have come together to emphasise the pressures in schools and the difficulties that the pupil-teacher ratio is causing. Although the Minister of State is not in a position to indicate what might happen next week and I know that negotiations are ongoing, I urge him to do everything in his power to ensure that education is ring fenced in the upcoming budget because the primary school system in particular cannot take any more pressure than it is already under.
I fully recognise that PTR has not changed, but class sizes are on the increase, which I am sure the Minister recognises. When he took up office, the average class size was 24.3 pupils, but the latest figures show that it is now 24.7 pupils. I take from his response that whatever decision is made next week will not affect DEIS schools.
I am not looking for an answer on whether the Minister plans to increase PTR. I want to know whether any analysis has been done on the impact any proposed increases may have. Whether that is done for this or the next budget, we must have that analysis because without it we will continually be forced to make decisions based on budgetary decisions while not having the information on how that will impact longer term and whether it will put more pressure on finances. Until we move to a budget-proofing process, that system will continue.
I thank both Deputies for expressing their concerns, which is helpful. We may need to look at areas where population is rising quickly and where there are demographic issues. We know how many two and three year olds there are and we need to consider whether our response to and intervention on the schools with realisable population increases should be quicker than is currently the case. We must look at that because there is a big miss-match if there are classrooms with 41 pupils in them.
I know they are the exception but there are too many exceptions in one sense. I am open to looking at that in the context of next year's budget.
Has the Minister carried out any analysis examining the effect of any proposed increases?
Yes, we analyse all the decisions that are contemplated on the menu. We have a bit more experience in respect of understanding the potential impacts.
