COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 26 Apr 2012

Vote 29 - International Co-operation

Mr. David Cooney(Secretary General, Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade) called and examined.

Chairman

I remind members, witnesses and those in the public gallery that they should turn off their mobile telephones because interference from phones affects sound quality and transmission of the proceedings.

I advise witnesses that they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give the committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against a Member of either House, a person outside the House nor an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are reminded of the provision of Standing Order 158 that the committee shall also refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government, or the merits or objectives of such policies.

I welcome Mr. David Cooney, Secretary General of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, and ask him to introduce his officials.

Mr. David Cooney

Certainly. At the end is Brendan Rogers, Deputy Secretary in the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, who heads up the development co-operation division and Irish Aid, the delivery vehicle for the Department's aid programme. Next is Barry Robinson, Assistant Secretary, corporate services division in the Department. Then we have Tim Mawe, head of finance, and Joe Nugent, director of the passport service. Also with me are two colleagues from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, Mr. Dermot Quigley and Mr. Frank Griffin.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade has responsibility for management of the public services funded under two Votes. Key areas of responsibility of the Department include foreign policy advice and co-ordination, foreign representation of Ireland and provision of consular services through a network of over 70 diplomatic missions, promotion of Ireland abroad, especially in economic matters, management of Ireland's development aid programme and the issuing of passports.

Gross expenditure in 2010 under Vote 28 amounted to €224 million. Two thirds of that expenditure was on administration subheads. This included salary costs of €93 million, in respect of some 1,300 staff. Office premises expenses of €27 million were incurred, including premises costs for Ireland's network of embassies and missions. Non-administration expenditure under the Vote amounted to €70 million in total in 2010. The most significant expenditure category was €52 million in contributions to international organisations, up from €37 million in 2009. Appropriations-in-aid amounted to €43 million, including over €36 million in fees for passports, visas and other consular services.

Vote 29, for international co-operation, is used to fund a substantial part of Ireland's programme of official development assistance, which is administered by the Department's Irish Aid unit. Gross expenditure in 2010 under the Vote amounted to €524 million. Administration costs under Vote 29 amounted to €30 million, or about 6% of the total. This included payroll costs of some €18 million in respect of 209 staff. Twenty five of those staff were recruited locally by Irish Aid missions abroad.

Spending under the Vote accounts for around 77% of Ireland's official development aid expenditure. Chapter 24 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report was compiled in order to give a more complete account of the programme and of how the resources provided are used. Programme expenditure includes funding for bilateral and multilateral development aid programmes, emergency assistance, and contributions to international development funds and agencies. Analysis of spending trends indicates that programme expenditure increased to a peak of €921 million in 2008. Since then, Irish development aid expenditure has fallen. Total programme spending in 2010 was €676 million, which was almost 27% below the 2008 figure.

The UN has a long-standing target for developed countries to contribute development aid equivalent to 0.7% of GNP each year. Ireland's programme hit a peak of 0.59% of GNP in 2008, but had fallen back to 0.53% in 2010. Nevertheless, compared to other OECD countries, Ireland ranked ninth highest in terms of its development aid contribution. Given the nature of development aid and how it is delivered, the Department requires robust systems for ensuring that spending is used in the way intended, and achieves maximum impact for the countries and communities receiving the aid. For that reason, the chapter examines the Department's systems for audit and evaluation of its spending.

The Department has in place a specialist evaluation and audit unit that aims to provide assurance that funds are used for their intended purpose and that value for money is achieved. The work of the unit is overseen by the Department's audit committee. The unit's audit work focuses particularly on the appropriateness of the accounting and financial management systems of organisations through which aid is delivered, including through government agencies in selected programme countries and non-governmental organisations. In practice, audit coverage of approximately 95% of expenditure in programme countries has been achieved in recent years through a combination of audits carried out by the audit unit, audits commissioned by Irish Aid and audits commissioned by partner organisations or by national audit offices in recipient countries. For other bilateral assistance programmes, the Department did not have a structured system in place to ensure audit reports were received in a timely way, or for their review by the evaluation and audit unit. The unit also carries out an extensive programme of evaluation of aid on a cyclical basis, co-ordinated with its strategic planning and with formal procedures to track and follow up on recommendations. Formal reviews of the Department's evaluation capacity and of its effectiveness in the provision of aid have generally been positive, although one review noted that the Department's system of performance reporting on aid effectiveness required development. An international research report published in 2010 found that Ireland was the only bilateral aid donor that ranked in the top ten across all key quality areas in the delivery of development aid assistance.

I will now turn to chapter 23. The first Global Irish Economic Forum took place at Farmleigh in September 2009, and was co-ordinated by the Department. The forum's broad objectives were to explore how Irish people at home and abroad, and others with a strong interest in Ireland, could work together and contribute to overall efforts at economic recovery, and to examine ways in which Ireland and its global community could develop a more strategic relationship with each other, particularly in economic matters. The examination found that the cost of running the forum was relatively modest, at around €330,000. The Department's report on the forum's proceedings identified 22 medium-term objectives and 37 specific initiatives for action in the short term, which had been proposed by forum participants. The proposals covered a range of areas from the importance of building and developing networks to the need for supports in education, business and green technology. While they were not formally endorsed by the Government, the proposals were available to inform policy and administrative adjustments.

The general conclusion of the examination was that the usefulness of the forum concept lies in its capacity to bring forth new ideas which can lead to joined-up Government measures, while better aligning Ireland's unique strengths and productive capacity with the economic opportunities available. There was a reasonable level of tracking and reporting on the proposals made by participants. The report recommends that it would be worthwhile to evaluate the overall contributions of the global forum concept and the opportunities to exploit further the networks which have been established.

Since the Comptroller and Auditor General's report was completed, a second global forum was held in October 2011. The Accounting Officer will be able to brief the committee on the outcomes from that meeting.

Chairman

Thank you. Mr. Cooney, can we have your opening statement?

Mr. David Cooney

Thank you, Chairman, for inviting me to assist the Committee of Public Accounts in its consideration of the 2010 appropriation accounts for the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. I understand that the committee has been supplied with some general briefing material on the Department.

The Department fulfils a diverse range of policy, administrative, programme management and public service functions through its headquarters staff and network of 73 diplomatic and consular missions abroad. We operate in a complex and changing environment, liable to sudden transformation by unexpected events. As the budgetary landscape has altered, we have made far-reaching changes in the structure of the Department and in how we do our work. We have implemented a range of measures to trim our cost base. The budget of the Department peaked in 2008 at just over €1 billion. It is now €300 million less than that. There have been reductions in some programmes; others have necessarily been abolished. The administrative cost of running the Department has been cut by over 20%. A reduction in staff numbers of more than 11% has been absorbed. It has proved necessary to close three diplomatic missions abroad.

Our foreign service is very lean compared to other countries of similar size and international ambition. We have fewer missions and we have fewer staff in those missions. Where we are strong is in the quality of the civil servants who make up this Department, both at home and abroad. They are efficient, effective and dedicated to serving the interests of the Irish people.

Through their commitment, I believe that we are managing to maintain the range, quality and geographic reach of the services we provide to the Government, Oireachtas and the public.

We have reoriented our activities to meet new challenges. In particular, we have strengthened the Department's contribution to the objective of supporting economic recovery and restoring our international reputation.

We have taken on new responsibilities for promoting foreign trade. We have been out front in communicating Ireland's message to key decision makers and opinion formers in partner countries and priority markets. We managed historic visits to Ireland by Queen Elizabeth and President Obama this time last year. Through successful initiatives like the Global Irish Forum, we are leading the Government's effort to harness the energy, imagination and commitment of the extended Irish family in support of economic recovery. We are assisting our elderly and disadvantaged citizens abroad through the emigrant support programme.

The Department manages a development co-operation programme that is recognised internationally as one of the best in the world. It is greatly to the credit of the Irish people and their representatives in the Oireachtas that, notwithstanding our own economic difficulties, we retain our commitment to the poorest people on the planet. Aid is working, and as Africa begins to realise its economic potential, the Department has launched an Africa strategy to ensure that Ireland supports this development and is well positioned to benefit from the growing trade and business opportunities in that continent.

Irish citizens are travelling in ever greater numbers and to more exotic and far flung destinations. As a consequence, the Department is bearing a growing and more complex consular caseload, often involving difficult and tragic situations. We have been called upon to help Irish citizens caught up in a number of large-scale crises, such as the volcanic ash disruption in 2010 and last year in Egypt, Japan, Libya and New Zealand. At the same time, we are continuing to improve the efficiency of the passport service. Record numbers of passports are being issued. Application processing times have been shortened and the average cost of producing a passport has been significantly reduced. I am pleased to say that, with the assistance of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and the co-operation of the staff unions, the delays in service that occurred over the past two years have been avoided this year.

Thank you, Chairman, for giving me the opportunity to make this short statement. I will do my best to assist you and your colleagues with your discussions.

Chairman

Thank you. Can we publish that statement?

Mr. David Cooney

Certainly.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

I thank Mr. Cooney and his officials for coming in today. He stated that we are strong in the quality of the civil servants who make up the Department, both at home and abroad, and that they are efficient, effective and dedicated to serving the interests of the Irish people. I would like to echo that sentiment. My experience is that we have civil servants in our diplomatic corps who are among the best in the world, and I commend Mr. Cooney and his staff on all the work they are doing, especially at present.

A spending review was undertaken in the Department last year. When did that begin?

Mr. David Cooney

It was part of the comprehensive spending review. Off the top of my head I cannot remember the exact date, but it was something that took place in common with all Departments in preparation for the Estimates round. As far as I can recollect, it started around 3 May.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Was that conducted by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform?

Mr. David Cooney

In co-operation with us. We had an initial input, the Department came back to us with some comments on that, and then we went back again - I think it was just after the summer break - with some further observations.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

What was the purpose of that review?

Mr. David Cooney

It was conducted for all Departments to ensure we were achieving value for money and what we were doing was necessary, made sense, and yielded the appropriate return. It was in this context our review of missions was taking place, after which we committed to closing three of our diplomatic missions.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Did the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform set the parameters? Did it say to the Department it wanted it to find a certain level of savings?

Mr. David Cooney

Yes. That Department gave us targets and said we should be coming out with a specific amount. When we responded initially it said we were to do more, and we did.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Was the review was concluded around the end of the summer?

Mr. David Cooney

Yes; we concluded it just after that. It got rolled into the Estimates round, with discussion at ministerial level.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

After the conclusion of the first stage, what did Mr. Cooney present to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform?

Mr. David Cooney

We presented some trimming. For example, at that stage we offered to trim our programmes on the Vote 28 side - that is, the emigrant support programme and, on the Anglo-Irish side, the anti-sectarian and reconciliation funds - by 10%. We also offered a certain amount on the aid budget side. Subsequently, we came back with the mission closures, and I think there was some further trimming of the aid budget.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Initially the Department offered two mission closures. Is that correct?

Mr. David Cooney

Internally in the Department, we examined which mission closures would cause the least damage to our interests at that stage. We considered it very much from a trade perspective. In the initial response we offered two missions, and then in the final Estimates round that was increased to three.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

What was the reason for offering those two missions? Was it because they were the cheapest?

Mr. David Cooney

It was not a case of the cheapest nor the most expensive. If we wanted to save the most money we would have closed our permanent representation at the European Union, but clearly that would be ridiculous. We considered it carefully, analysing what our missions do. Would the Deputy like me to talk about how we identified the three missions that were to close?

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

I would be interested in knowing, in particular, why the missions in Dili and Tehran were closed.

Mr. David Cooney

We had a programme in our small mission in Dili and, frankly, its work was largely done. We had made good progress. Timor-Leste is now a country of considerable stored wealth based on its oil, so it is not a poor country, although clearly it still has development issues. It was an expensive mission for us to service for such a small programme, and it really takes quite a while to get there and back. Thus, in terms of the added value we could gain by having someone on the ground on a long-term basis, we calculated we could still do what we needed to do in Timor-Leste, from a development perspective, through Dublin. Unlike many of the other missions, the mission in Dili was a development mission, not an embassy, and was headed up by a development representative. That is why we chose to close the embassy in Timor-Leste. To be clear, I did not want to close any of these missions. As the head of a diplomatic service, one does not by instinct want to close missions. However, we had to do something. We were under pressure to make cuts, just as every other Department is.

Ireland had been represented in Tehran since 1976 and, again, I did not want to close this mission. We had invested a lot of effort over the years in trying to develop relations with Iran, particularly trade relations, which was the main purpose of the embassy. Frankly, it had not delivered in terms of the level of trade we were getting, and in circumstances in which sanctions were being imposed on Iran which would make it difficult to expand trade, in a needs-must situation we admitted this embassy was not yielding a return at the time. We did not want to close it, and I hope one day we might go back in circumstances in which Iran is able to realise its true trade potential. That is why we identified the embassy in Tehran for closure - for trade reasons.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Before we come to the third embassy, I was interested to hear Mr. Cooney say that ideally he would not be closing any missions. When he gave advice to the Minister recommending, say, that the embassy in Tehran be closed, did he provide any caveats?

Mr. David Cooney

Not in terms of saying I did not want any missions closed. I recognised the impossible position the Minister was in. As the deputy leader of the Government he is presiding over spending cuts, and I cannot expect him to say everyone else must implement cuts but his Department is immune. Everybody had to bear some pain, and so did we. With regard to the implications, I expected there to be expressions of regret, and there have been expressions of regret about the closure of all three missions, including Tehran, but it was a necessary decision, unfortunately, in the circumstances.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Mr. Cooney made recommendations to the Minister. Were there any savings apart from the embassy closures that could have been realised? Were other things considered, such as the removal of State cars in diplomatic missions abroad?

Mr. David Cooney

We have removed a number of State cars in diplomatic missions. I can detour to the subject of State cars, or would the Deputy prefer me to finish talking about the missions?

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

No. I am just interested in hearing whether different options were presented to the Minister.

Mr. David Cooney

In a number of smaller EU countries we have constructed a new, leaner model of representation. Where it is possible to do so, we have gone down to one-diplomat missions. We have got rid of large residences. Ambassadors live in modest apartments and do not have cars. There are now a number of missions with no car. That only works in a small country with a reasonable public transport system and no security issues. It is not a model that could be exported everywhere. The car in an embassy is not used just to chauffeur the ambassador around. It is the messenger vehicle for the embassy. It goes to the foreign ministry, makes deliveries, collects documents and so on. It is a multi-purpose vehicle.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

It was felt, though, that there were other options that could be considered, without cutting some embassies.

Mr. David Cooney

Not really. I assure the Deputy we did look at everything. If I could have found cuts elsewhere that would have avoided the embassy closures, I would have gone for them. On the Vote 28 side, most of the money is spent on our staff. The programmes on that side are very modest, including the emigrant support programme, on which we took a 10% cut, and a small programme of grants for anti-sectarian, community and reconciliation activities in Northern Ireland, which is now down to about €2.7 million. Then we have our contributions to international organisations, which are mostly mandatory. The scope for cuts is limited in Vote 28. If I could have saved the embassies by making some cuts in programmes I would have done so because an effective diplomatic service needs overseas missions. In the circumstances we had to cut back.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

The first review came back with Dili and Tehran. Then it was decided-----

Mr. David Cooney

Following our own internal review, I presented three options to the Tánaiste. We discussed them through. In the first instance we went back with Dili and the Holy See. That was purely on the grounds that, however limited, Tehran was delivering in terms of trade. There was still some trade coming from Tehran and there was potential for the future.

We looked at the Holy See. For many historic and sentimental reasons it is an embassy of some significance. It was my first diplomatic posting and I have a personal attachment to it. However, it does not do trade so there is no return in terms of trade. It does not have consular responsibilities so citizens were not going to suffer from its withdrawal. Its focus is on church-state relations so it has a narrow focus. Some people will argue that it is a significant listening post but Ireland is not in the league of trying to follow what is happening in far-flung places. It may be an important listening post for-----

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

I do not want to interrupt but I wanted to clarify something. Mr. Cooney mentioned three options. Was his first instinct to go for Dili and the Holy See?

Mr. David Cooney

We put the three names to the Tánaiste. Then it was decided we would go for two. This was not publicised. I am not even keen to talk about it now because it is not the kind of thing other states want to hear about themselves, that is, that they were first, second or third on the chopping block. At the time, we did not write to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and say we were proposing to cut mission X or Y, because at that stage we did not know what missions we were going to cut. I would have preferred not to cut any. One would certainly want to inform a government in advance, as we managed to do, if one was going to close that mission because it would be extremely offensive for people in that country to read about it in the paper. The rationale for going for Dili and the Holy See in the first instance was purely in terms of return. We were asking how we could sustain these cutbacks while doing least damage to our interests.

The other element was that the mission to the Holy See has a very narrow focus. It is a three hour flight away. While I would not pretend that the job can be done as well from Dublin as by having a resident in the Holy See, the narrow focus of the mission, which is church-state relations, can be done reasonably effectively from Dublin. Given the Government's decision to appoint me to the post, I am in an extremely good position to interface with the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and other members of the Government on church-state issues.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

When did the Holy See fall out and Tehran come in?

Mr. David Cooney

It did not fall out. After putting up the two, the pressure continued during the Estimates round and then-----

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

The Department put up Dili and the Holy See, then the Government came back and said it needed to cut more money and then the Department came back with Tehran.

Mr. David Cooney

We came back with Tehran.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

It has been reported differently.

Mr. David Cooney

Sorry?

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

It was reported that the Department came first with Dili and Tehran and came back in the second review with the Holy See.

Mr. David Cooney

What I am telling the Deputy is the truth. There are journalists who have tried to work out all kinds of conspiracy theories but I have not come here to tell lies. What I am telling the committee is the truth.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

I am simply saying it was reported differently.

Mr. David Cooney

I know it was reported but that was done on the basis of someone putting two and two together and getting five. I would not come here and mislead the committee.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

I appreciate that. The Department came with Dili and the Holy See first. Then, with the need for greater savings it decided to come back with Tehran.

Mr. David Cooney

Yes.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Were there any other options?

Mr. David Cooney

Fortunately, we did not get beyond three. If there were more I would not publicly speculate on where else we might close. That would be destabilising to our relationships. In a public forum I would prefer to avoid that, if possible.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

It seems the Department's focus in weighing up what embassies to go for was economic. The Tánaiste said the Department was giving particular attention to the economic return from bilateral missions, but a predecessor of Mr. Cooney's has said that is nonsense and that we do not look at our diplomatic missions in that way. Indeed, when Mr. Cooney talked about the Holy See-----

Chairman

The Deputy should not stray into policy matters.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

I appreciate that, Chairman.

Mr. David Cooney

Does Deputy Murphy mean a predecessor as Secretary General?

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Yes.

Mr. David Cooney

I do not know what he said but this is what I am saying, and this is what we are doing. After the difficulty we got ourselves into, the entire focus of the Department significantly shifted towards promoting and protecting our economic interests. I was thinking about that when I was preparing for this meeting. It is all about trade and promotion. The old issues, such as disarmament and so on, that would have preoccupied my predecessors are still being dealt with on a shoestring basis but they are not the front of house issues that are preoccupying us at present. They are very important and we do them to the best of our ability but the focus of the Department at present is on contributing to Ireland's economic recovery. That was the rationale we used when looking at the embassy closures.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Did we assess the economic return from all of our bilateral missions?

Mr. David Cooney

We looked at all of them. There are one or two where there was not the same economic return as there would have been elsewhere but there were, perhaps, other reasons for maintaining them. Certainly, the feasibility of retaining them on a non-residential basis would have been complicated, but we looked at all of them.

Not all embassies are justified on economic return. We had to make a judgment as to which closures would cause the least difficulty. Obviously, the permanent representative in New York is-----

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Least difficulty from what point of view?

Mr. David Cooney

We looked at which would cause us least difficulty, that is, which would cost us least.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Cost us less?

Mr. David Cooney

Cost us in terms of money and of how we could maintain our diplomatic relations. The proposals came from the Department to the Government. As I have said repeatedly to anyone to whom I have spoken, no member of the Government ever came to me and said: "I want to close down the Embassy to the Holy See. Make it happen." The initiative came from a review taken by the Department.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

The Tánaiste did say it was done based on the economic return from bilateral missions. Now it seems that was not the only factor in why we closed the embassy.

Mr. David Cooney

No. Our smaller missions in the EU, for example, are not maintained because we do the biggest trade with them. They are maintained primarily because we have important interests to preserve with those countries. Each of those countries has a vote in the European Union on issues that directly affect the daily lives of Irish people. We strongly believe that if one wants to influence the policies of a government, one does it in the capital and not by talking to the permanent representative in Brussels. For instance, if one wanted to influence Irish policy on a particular issue, one would do it far more effectively in Dublin, with the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, Ministers and the Oireachtas, than by talking to our permanent representative in Brussels.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

By the same token, if one wanted to influence the policy of the Holy See on education in Ireland or sexual abuse, it would be better to have someone on the ground there.

Mr. David Cooney

It would absolutely be preferable, but it can be done less badly on a non-resident basis than, say, having the ambassador in one of the Baltic countries non-resident. As I said before, because of what the Government decided, if there is an issue of church-state relations I am in a pretty good position to bring that matter to the attention of senior figures in the Government. I go out there every month so it is not as though we have abandoned our relationship with the Holy See. People are entitled to question whether it was a good decision but all I can say it was taken on a very honest appraisal of where we could best maintain our relations in a very difficult situation. No one in the Department wanted to close any embassies and I certainly did not want to close the embassy to the Holy See in any circumstances but we had to do it and we had to look at the situation with a business-like eye.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

From my point of view I see some inconsistency in the approach. We talk about looking at the economic bilateral return and we have spoken about saving costs but we also recognise that diplomacy is not just to do with economics and finances or trade relationships. The Secretary General mentioned that there is a trade relationship with Tehran and it had potential and yet that we would close that embassy. We have also decreased our representation in San Francisco, I understand.

Mr. David Cooney

As regards Tehran, of course there is potential and I hope we will get back to the stage where we will be able to return there to realise it. However, we were not realising as much return from having an embassy there as we would have liked and it was the case that the situation demanded the closure of some embassies. As regards the Holy See, there is nothing I can say. We do not do business with the Holy See. I know there are other reasons for keeping embassies open but those reasons are not business reasons - I mean business not just in terms of economics - that would necessarily dictate or determine policy with the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. I fully respect the Deputy's right to disagree with the decisions but we took those decisions on the best consideration we could. There were not other embassies we should have closed ahead of those embassies. I know the closure of the embassy to the Holy See has caused some upset here but that is more related to people's perception of the Catholic Church or the Vatican's perception of itself. I have not heard anyone make a compelling case that Ireland's interests have been badly damaged by closing the embassy to the Holy See. That said, along with many others, I hope that we will one day be able to open an embassy there on a more modest basis. As the Tánaiste has made clear, we will need to wait for an improvement in the economic situation.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

What is the situation with regard to the representation in San Francisco?

Mr. David Cooney

There has been a complete misunderstanding as regards the San Francisco situation. As the Deputy will be aware, staffing in the Department and various missions was reinforced during our EU Presidencies. As has happened on other occasions, the Department is recalling staff from embassies and consulates that are not directly involved or not as involved in the EU Presidency, in order to reinforce those areas of the operation which are. As regards San Francisco it is not the case that we have withdrawn this person but rather we are redeploying that post for a year. Ruthless prioritisation is precisely what people are telling us to do; we are advised to move resources around to deal with the needs of the moment. That is exactly what we are doing. The person in the post was due to come to the end of the posting this coming summer and he is not being replaced. However, after the period of our EU Presidency we will be filling that post again.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

I presume San Francisco must be a priority, being on the west coast of the United States and its proximity to Silicon Valley.

Mr. David Cooney

I agree.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Ireland has a significant relationship with that part of the world even as regards the technology sector alone.

Mr. David Cooney

Absolutely. Again, I do not want to take this action but I am bound to do so because, frankly, I do not have enough staff to fill every vacancy I would like to fill. We have to move our staff around. We will be filling that vacancy by means of temporary local recruitment but not with a permanent departmental official. For that year we will recruit locally a person to cover that post. In my view, this is good management in a very tough resource situation.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

I agree the Department has limited resources which it must manage. However, it struck me that San Francisco-Silicon Valley is so important to what we are doing and I ask why that post should go rather than a post in another part of the world where our interest is less important for economic reasons or other factors.

Mr. David Cooney

We do not have to deal with EU Presidency responsibilities in San Francisco. I agree that mission is very important. Our embassies which are not in EU countries must co-ordinate with other EU countries in terms of relations with the host country. We have looked everywhere to see where posts can be used but one cannot just pluck people out of bilateral embassies and send them to work in the EU because they will already be working on EU Presidency duties in their posts of accreditation. Ireland must assume certain responsibilities when assuming the EU Presidency and these must be covered by the Department.

I think there has been a misunderstanding with regard to the San Francisco situation. It was thought that the Department was closing down the post for cost reasons. This is not the case; we are simply temporarily redeploying our assets during the EU Presidency. We will be covering that position on a temporary basis from a local recruit and we will be restoring a full diplomatic officer or consular officer in this case, to the consulate once the EU Presidency term is over. It was very gratifying to see local business people saying they were prepared to step in and put up the money but that will not happen and it will not be necessary because we will cover that position and the post will remain.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

When will the next departmental review take place?

Mr. David Cooney

The Estimates will be discussed in the coming months. I sincerely hope we will not have to close any more embassies.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Has the level of required savings been identified?

Mr. David Cooney

The Government has adopted a rolling plan for the next three years, including targets. Based on those targets I would be hopeful we will not have to close more embassies but the discussions have not commenced as yet.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Is this year's target similar to last year?

Mr. David Cooney

It is more or less similar. Programmes have dropped in funding by €23 million over the entire Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade group of Votes.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

As Mr. Cooney noted, there is not much left in Vote 28 from which to find savings. It is likely that this will affect embassies and missions.

Mr. David Cooney

The Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade Vote in its entirety covers the development Vote 27.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Is it likely that embassies and missions abroad will be considered?

Mr. David Cooney

We are always looking at the situation with regard to embassies. Frankly, our embassies are either protecting our interests or they are playing an important role in the country's recovery. I will not say here today that we will close more embassies. I will not say it will be over my dead body but I will certainly resist.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

I would not encourage any closures.

Mr. David Cooney

In my view our embassies are playing an important part in our recovery.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

When will the closure of the embassies in Tehran and the Holy See be reviewed? Is it a case of waiting for our economic situation to improve or are other factors being considered?

Mr. David Cooney

The Tánaiste gave an interview recently which was reported in the newspapers last weekend. He has made clear that he wants to see the Department expanding its role of representation abroad and of promoting trade. I would like to do this. For example, I would favour us opening a consular office in Texas and I think we need at least one or more in China. I would like us to do more in countries such as India and Indonesia. These are places where we need to expand and if the Department had the resources we would do so. In respect of the Holy See, the Tánaiste has said he is prepared to look at that possibility in the context of an economic recovery. I am in discussions with officials in the Holy See to explore to the fullest possible extent how we can use State-owned accommodation in Rome to accommodate both missions. At the moment it would be very difficult but we will explore this possibility fully.

As regards Tehran, it is a significant country with significant trade potential. If the political situation there can improve, there is a real prospect for trade growth and I would want us to be back in Tehran, but in the current situation where it is subject to a sanctions regime, it would be difficult enough to justify going back on the basis of trade potential.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

From the perspective of the political situation, as the Secretary General pointed out, that is exactly the kind of reason we should have representation in Tehran because tensions are escalating. That is when one needs diplomats on the ground, communicating and being an important listening post for ourselves and others because not everyone has representation there.

Mr. David Cooney

Absolutely. I will not pretend that we have not lost something in terms of reporting back on the situation on the ground. We have. I certainly would not claim in regard to any of the embassies we have closed that it has not cost us anything. It has, but we need to be clear about where we are in this respect. We are not a big player in terms of the crisis over Iran's nuclear programme and our embassy was not there to be a big player in that area. It was there to try to promote Irish business. We have to be realistic about what we can hope to do. I fully agree with what the Deputy has said. I would not have wanted to close it but the Government had to do quite a lot of things that nobody has wanted to do and, unfortunately, this is one of them.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

It is a resource issue for the Department-----

Mr. David Cooney

Yes.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

-----and that the Secretary General would have liked to have the resources to fill that one.

Mr. David Cooney

I have gone through the contacts we have undertaken. This Department - and all credit to my predecessor for this - was a lean one when I took over more than three years ago. It was a well run Department and any expansion we have done, certainly on the diplomatic side, had pretty much been done from existing resources. When the economy hit the wall and the Government had to start cutting back funds, unfortunately, the way it works it that the best run Departments carry the most pain because they are the people who have the least fat to cut back. One very quickly draws blood when one starts cutting the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

We have consistently spoken about the importance of trade in the role of the Department and it is now called the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. That is new as of this Government on coming into office following the general election last year. How does that change what the Department does in terms of resources? Did it get any extra resources when that happened?

Mr. David Cooney

We got the title and to some extent the title legitimatised what we were already doing. The Department of Foreign Affairs has always been, and particularly so in recent years, about trade. Our embassies have quite considerably refocused their work on trade. Ambassadors are active on trade issues, as will be known from various Ministers who have gone out to the embassies. In a way I saw this as a kind of legitimising the role we had already.

We got three extra members of staff and the resources needed to pay them. We got €200,000 to enable us to organise the trade missions and to run the Export Trade Council. The additional resources were pretty marginal, but it has given us a legitimacy. We now lead the Export Trade Council - we are responsible for that. We organise it. We lead the Tánaiste jointly with the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation on the organisation of trade missions. We are very much up-front in that respect. We have a division that is called the trade and promotion division. It is active and involved in the planning of trade missions. We have not taken on, for instance, EU trade policy, dual use certification or responsibility for the State agencies, which have all remained with the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

What grade are the three staff who came over to the Department?

Mr. David Cooney

There is a principal officer, a higher executive office and a staff officer or clerical officer.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Did they come into the new policy unit, the trade and promotion unit?

Mr. David Cooney

What we got were the posts.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

It was not actual personnel with a trade competency who came in.

Mr. David Cooney

We got three posts. The person who was filling the principal officer post was from the Department of Foreign Affairs who was on secondment to the other Department. The two people who came over with the posts very quickly went back to their home Department so we did not get anybody new from outside, but we got the posts which we have used to expand our trade and promotion division.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Therefore, no new expertise came across from the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation?

Mr. David Cooney

Not in terms of people. In terms of dealing with this, we have taken on the new role with minimal resources. We have gone through a major restructuring of the Department during the past few months. We had an internal review of our own where we went through the Department, how it does its business, how we deploy our resources and we have recently undertaken the most significant restructuring of the Department, certainly in the 35 years I have been in the Department, and have moved from a thematic basis as far as possible to a regional basis. We now have desks that are responsible for regions across the Department and their functions have been integrated into a one-stop shop. For instance, we have an African-Latin America unit that is responsible for everything to do with those continents ranging from human rights in Colombia to trade with China. Although we have not had the resources, we have basically arrived at a solution whereby we are asking people who were perhaps previously focusing on political issues to put trade at the front and deal with the political issues as well. We are trying to get more for less. It is not easy but we have seen it work reasonably well with the recent visit to China by the Taoiseach and the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine where our African-Latin America unit played a significant role.

Chairman

The Deputy has gone over his time.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

I will conclude now and I thank the Chairman for the extra time. We were talking about resources and potential for greater savings and being more efficient in what we deliver abroad. I understand there has been some resistance to the adoption of the "Trade" title by some of our representatives abroad. Is that correct? Would all ambassadors be signed up and happy to be going out and talking economics on behalf of the country?

Mr. David Cooney

Our ambassadors have been doing this. This is one of the good aspects of it; it has legitimised the work they are doing. I have not heard a single member of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade say that we should not be taking on this role. As somebody who has served as a bilateral ambassador abroad, nothing gave me greater fulfilment than to feel that I was acting in a way that would help bring jobs and investment to Ireland. That, to me, was good and fulfilling work and work that I would be very happy to do more of. I think our ambassadors are doing a top class job in pursuing the trade agenda. We are working with the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation to co-ordinate better, in particular to work more closely with the agencies. We are pursuing a service level agreement, for instance, with Enterprise Ireland. I think there is considerable scope for our embassies and Enterprise Ireland to work more closely abroad and, even in terms of our deployment of resources, to ensure that we can cover the widest possible area.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

In Shanghai they are all located in the same building.

Mr. David Cooney

We are located in the same building and that is good. Where we can pursue the Ireland house concept, so much the better, and we are far more effective. We are a small country with very few resources. We should be working together strategically and corporately wherever we can. Nothing angers me more than seeing people fighting over turf and not co-operating. In our situation it is an unacceptable waste of time and resources.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

I thank Mr. Cooney.

Chairman

To clarify some points made by Deputy Murphy regarding the three closures, can Mr. Cooney give us the figure for the savings in each case?

Mr. David Cooney

Off the top of my head, the savings for the Holy See in a full year will be €845,000. That includes the money we will save from the rental on the premises used by the ambassador to Italy. The ambassador has already moved in to the Villa Spada.

Chairman

In one year, therefore, the Department will save €845,000 on the Holy See.

Mr. David Cooney

That is right. That is in a full year next year because we are only just doing the-----

Chairman

In a full year €845,000 will be saved.

Mr. David Cooney

Yes.

Chairman

Regarding the building, was that leased?

Mr. David Cooney

The Villa Spada, the location for both the ambassador's residence and the offices of the embassy to the Holy See, is owned by the State. We are able to move, therefore, the residence of the ambassador to Italy and the offices of the embassy to Italy into that building which is owned by the State thereby saving annual rental of approximately €445,000.

Chairman

The embassy is closed. The Department saves €845,000.

Mr. David Cooney

Yes.

Chairman

There are further savings by virtue of the fact that the Department closed two other offices.

Mr. David Cooney

Yes. I believe the annual saving is €1.165 million. I do not know if someone can give me the-----

Chairman

That is the total saving.

Mr. David Cooney

That is the total saving.

Chairman

The Department will save over €1.1 million-----

Mr. David Cooney

The figure is €1.175.

Chairman

-----in that total transaction.

Mr. David Cooney

Yes.

Chairman

The building is now fully occupied by staff doing-----

Mr. David Cooney

The ambassador has moved in. We are doing some refurbishment works to make all the building areas of the Villa Spada available for use by the office of the embassy to Italy. The office of the embassy to Italy is considerably bigger in terms of staff than was the embassy to the Holy See.

Chairman

To ensure we all know, where is the Villa Spada located?

Mr. David Cooney

In Rome. The Villa Spada is the building that housed the embassy to the Holy See, both the ambassador's residence and the offices.

Chairman

In that building currently there is-----

Mr. David Cooney

We have the ambassador's residence and later in the year we will have the full offices of the ambassador to Italy.

Chairman

What was closed down?

Mr. David Cooney

We have ended the lease on the residence of the ambassador to Italy and we are terminating the lease on the offices of the embassy to Italy. That is how we will save the €445,000.

Chairman

It was saved on buildings.

Mr. David Cooney

Almost half of it is saved on staff costs and half on rental on buildings.

Chairman

What are the savings in terms of the other two closures?

Mr. David Cooney

Tehran is €80,000 this year and in a full year will be €330,000, and Dili is €200,000. In that case that is money from Vote 27 that will be reallocated, or Vote 29 as it would be in 2010. The development Vote-----

Chairman

Deputy Murphy mentioned San Francisco.

Mr. David Cooney

In terms of San Francisco, that is not about saving money. That is about relocating resources.

Chairman

I ask Mr. Cooney to make the point about the money.

Mr. David Cooney

What does the Chairman mean?

Chairman

I am asking Mr. Cooney about the savings because it is suggested that there was a closure but it is not a saving. It is just-----

Mr. David Cooney

No. San Francisco is just a reallocation of resources.

Chairman

The Department has appointed someone locally-----

Mr. David Cooney

Yes. We will employ someone locally who we will have to pay.

Chairman

That clarifies that. I ask for one other clarification regarding the issue Deputy Murphy raised. There are Enterprise Ireland, EI, offices throughout the world. Mr. Cooney's Department is responsible for trade and it carries the bulk of the activity around trade. It has staff and offices located throughout the world. In fact, it has offices in countries where Mr. Cooney's Department has embassies. Has Mr. Cooney assessed the savings that can be made by the amalgamation of those type of offices or the Department's embassies where there would be a one Ireland, one-stop shop approach abroad? Is that not where the Department should go to for its savings?

Mr. David Cooney

It is an issue that should be examined. We are endeavouring to arrive at a service level agreement with Enterprise Ireland. I would like to do much more work with it. Currently, it is not responsible to my Department and I have no control over it.

Chairman

Is that not nonsense? The Department works up these service level agreements to go on, which sound wonderful, but what we examine here is taxpayers' money. Enterprise Ireland uses taxpayers' money. Enterprise Ireland's representation abroad in terms of rented properties or what it might own abroad is funded by taxpayers' money. IDA Ireland has offices abroad funded by taxpayers' money. They are all manned by people. The Department's presence in the country is funded by taxpayers' money and is manned by people. The Department has 36 properties abroad that are owned by the State and 110 properties that are rented or leased by the State. I do not know what Enterprise Ireland has but it would be an interesting exercise for Mr. Cooney to conduct to determine how those properties can be best used where there is a single property in a country representing the trade element, the foreign affairs element and so on. I understand it may not be able to be achieved in some countries but the ones that work best are those that have the one stop shop approach where everything is provided. Beyond the service level agreement what forces Mr. Cooney's Department or the new Department, Enterprise Ireland and IDA Ireland to come together to save taxpayers' money in the overall scheme of things? Who takes the initiative in that regard? Is it a policy matter or a matter for the agencies and the Departments?

Mr. David Cooney

I agree with the Chairman. This is an area we should be examining. It is an area I want to examine. We work best where we are together. We have an Ireland house concept in 18 capitals where we are all working together. As far as possible that is what we should be aiming at. We should be aiming to consolidate resources and save taxpayers' money. I agree with the Chairman on that.

Chairman

Who can make that happen? Is it a policy matter or a matter for Secretaries General or Accounting Officers in the Department who are so concerned about taxpayers' money?

Mr. David Cooney

I think it is a policy matter. It needs to be driven, and I am prepared to do my part on it.

Chairman

Does Mr. Cooney not get paid to drive it? I am not talking about Mr. Cooney personally but generally-----

Mr. David Cooney

I will meet my opposite number from the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation the week after next to discuss co-operation across a range of fronts. Frankly, in terms of greater synthesis among the Department of Foreign Affairs, the diplomatic network and the agencies, it is something on which pressure needs to come from both sides.

Chairman

What is the view of our friends from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform? Can we save some taxpayers' money here? Can their Department take the initiative to bring these bodies together? Can they make that happen and drive it on with passion?

Mr. Dermot Quigley

Yes. Reference was made earlier to the comprehensive review of expenditure and the fact that it tied in with last year's Estimates. Obviously, matters such as those raised now will be among the matters to be discussed in the forthcoming Estimates campaign. In principle we would be very much in favour of greater cohesion. A caveat would have to be made regarding the timescale involved in that in many cases, even if a decision were taken, accommodation should be amalgamated in various cities. The legal obligations that might have been entered into by way of lease and renting generally would have to be taken into account but in principle we are in favour of the matter. It is the sort of matter that will be discussed by the Government in the context of the forthcoming Estimates.

Chairman

I suggest to Mr. Quigley that issues such as who owns what, who leased what and for how much, when are the break clauses in such leases and so on are matters that should be analysed immediately. This issue forms the foundation for service level agreements into which this Department or any other might enter through the IDA, Enterprise Ireland, the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation and so on. This committee would be particularly interested in seeing this happen on the ground because reports suggest best practice in this area is represented by the one-stop-shop approach, be it in London, Moscow or anywhere else. This is where the best outcomes for Ireland have been achieved by way of job creation or investment and the best outcome for the taxpayer lies in better uses of all those buildings.

Finally, I refer to the 36 properties owned by the State and the 83 properties that are leased by it. Have the witnesses a figure to hand on the value of those properties the State owns? I also seek the lease costs in respect of those properties that are rented.

Mr. David Cooney

Yes, I have those figures to hand. The value of the properties we own is €148 million.

Chairman

In total.

Mr. David Cooney

Moreover, the rent is just over €16 million per year.

Chairman

To be clear, what is the cost of leasing or renting the 110 properties?

Mr. David Cooney

It is €16.4 million.

Chairman

It costs €16.4 million every year. Can the Secretary General repeat the value of the 36 properties we own?

Mr. David Cooney

Yes, it is €148 million in total.

Chairman

We might ask the clerk to the committee to write to Enterprise Ireland and the IDA to determine the value of their leases and properties abroad, the countries in which they are located and so on. I will ask that this be done as an exercise.

Mr. David Cooney

I assure the Chairman he will not find my Department to be an obstacle to greater co-operation and consolidation with the agencies.

Chairman

I am familiar with the Secretary General and his Department and compliment them on the work they are doing.

Deputy Anne Ferris

I intend to concentrate on the area of official development assistance and I understand Mr. Brendan Rogers probably is the person with the expertise in this regard. At the outset, Mr. Cooney stated the level of Ireland's overseas aid is the ninth highest in the OECD and this excellent statistic must be acknowledged. I note that expenditure in 2010 was €100 million, which constitutes a fall of 7%. In this context, the multi-annual programme scheme provides funding to five non-governmental organisations, NGOs, namely, Concern, Trócaire, Christian Aid, GOAL and Self Help Africa. Mr. Cooney should indicate how much of the aid budget goes to the aforementioned five NGOs.

Mr. David Cooney

Does the Deputy mean the proportion of the budget?

Deputy Anne Ferris

Yes. What proportion of the budget goes to the aforementioned five NGOs?

Mr. Brendan Rogers

At present, the multi-annual programme scheme, MAPS, programme provides approximately €65 million per annum to NGOs for their long-term development programmes. This does not include either small-scale micro-projects or the money we give to them for their humanitarian response. In general, within the overall programme at present, approximately €140 million goes through NGOs and civil society organisations. This includes Irish NGOs and international NGOs, as well as local NGOs in the countries in which we work. We are one of the largest contributors in the world at present, in respect of all the donors, to civil society. It is more than 30% at present.

Deputy Anne Ferris

Consequently, the €65 million goes to the aforementioned five NGOs and the others-----

Mr. Brendan Rogers

And to a number of others in respect of their long-term development programmes. The multi-annual programme scheme was highly creative and innovative at the time because it was the first time we moved beyond a mere project approach. In a sense, this was to give them budget support for their long-term programmes, to give them consistency and to enable them to plan better and to focus much more on results.

Deputy Anne Ferris

Okay. If €65 million went to civil society supports, what happened to the balance of the money?

Mr. Brendan Rogers

There also is emergency humanitarian funding and, in addition, we fund NGOs in support of their projects. For example, the missionaries get project funding and get an additional €16 million which also would be included, as would funding to local NGOs in the countries in which we operate. When one adds together all that funding, one gets approximately €140 million. The MAPS programme is for strategic long-term development.

Deputy Anne Ferris

Was the €140 million the expenditure for 2010 or 2011?

Mr. Brendan Rogers

Expenditure was a little less than that for 2010, as this has been growing over time.

Deputy Anne Ferris

Okay. As for the multi-annual programme, is it correct to presume that Irish Aid has a service level agreement with individual charities?

Mr. Brendan Rogers

Yes, we have contractual arrangements and memorandums of understanding with them. They are very focused and clear and in recent years, we again have refocused on the importance of results and strategy. Consequently, a real change has taken place. There has been a deepening and maturing of the partnership in many respects. In addition, however, it is a more robust partnership now than ever before, which focuses on the results we all aim to achieve together.

Deputy Anne Ferris

I thank Mr. Rogers for his response. Is this a coincidence? As Mr. Rogers is aware, there was much publicity about GOAL last year, not all of which was positive. While I acknowledge that GOAL does a huge amount of good work, there was a problem with the governance of that organisation and an audit was carried out. Does Mr. Rogers consider that the Department can intervene to set a minimum standard?

Mr. Brendan Rogers

In respect of the focus on results, it has been taking place for the past ten years. There has been much criticism of development co-operation in respect of whether it is really changing things or simply deals with the symptoms. Consequently, we have been examining our own organisation over the past ten years and have been much more focused on results ourselves. It has been quite a difficult process to go right back into everything we do and to be able to measure, in so far as possible in difficult environments, what we set out to achieve. Essentially, we have completed this process for ourselves and over that period we also have had a very good partnership with the NGOs. However, we now are working with them to ensure the same focus on results is incorporated into everything they do. In fairness, they have been very open to this process and I note there has been an international focus on results as well. Consequently, there has been a great debate in the field of development aid about whether it should go on forever, whether exit strategies exist and on whether it is making a difference. This debate now is extending into each level, that is, internationally, nationally with our own programmes and then with the NGOs. As for our service level contracts, they are extremely detailed in respect of results. There have been frank, open and robust discussions in this regard and overall, the partnership is deeper than it has ever been.

Deputy Anne Ferris

While I again thank Mr. Rogers for his response, I revert to the audit carried out on GOAL. It stated the charity's board appears to function relatively informally and meets six to eight times per year without a preset agenda. Surely this is an issue of concern.

Mr. Brendan Rogers

Yes. First, the audit carried out on GOAL was part of an ongoing audit of all the NGOs essentially and did not simply focus on GOAL. It was an independent verifiable audit and evaluation and, overall, it was highly positive. It stated the organisation was doing excellent work on the ground - the Department also has carried out many monitoring visits - but noted there were issues in respect of governance. There is no doubt about that. There were issues in respect of the board and the Deputy has just pointed out some of them. We have had open and frank discussions with GOAL and in all fairness, it has been very open with us. We have put in place a series of actions the board will take and which are linked directly to the Dóchas code of practice. Moreover, we will consider the results and will look to progress made at the end of this year and it is a case of so far, so good. We will have another review at that point to consider next year's funding. Yes, it has been a critical debate but it has been positive and overall they are making excellent progress.

Deputy Anne Ferris

That is good news and is very welcome. Given the situation with GOAL, that we do not want to damage its reputation and we want to acknowledge there have been improvements, there is still much public funding going into it. Is there a role for a departmental official on the GOAL board? For example, the board of the Irish Red Cross has an official from the Department of Defence.

Mr. Brendan Rogers

We fund a very large number of organisations. Practically, it would quite difficult to be on all of their boards. We do respect the autonomy and the independence of the non-governmental organisation sector. We have detailed service-level contractual agreements with them and we externally audit them. I am not sure if it would be a good idea to be on the management side as well as the auditing side. We believe the existing robust relationship is the best way to relate to them.

Deputy Anne Ferris

The remuneration of those running the organisation is another issue. Has this been raised by Irish Aid with the various charities?

Mr. Brendan Rogers

Yes, in our new contracts we want to ensure their audits are out on their websites and indicate how many people will be paid over a certain level. We believe it is up to the board to sign off on those audited accounts which include the remuneration of all officials in that organisation. We would have some interest in what proportion of the administrative overheads are being paid in terms of staff costs. We certainly want to see how many are paid over a certain level. It is a matter of continuing interest for us but we believe it is essentially a matter for the board.

Deputy Anne Ferris

If the Department thought that certain people on the board of a charity were getting fairly hefty salaries, would it have a say in it or be critical of it?

Mr. Brendan Rogers

It would depend on the size of the organisation, its turnover and what proportion of that would be paid to a chief executive officer. If we felt it was very high, we would obviously have something to say. It also depends on how much we are giving to the organisation. Bearing in mind the board which is independent, if it had good governance structures, hopefully, in place we would sign off on that. We assume if there is a good governance structure in place, the board will have something to say about the remuneration of the chief executive officer and other officers. Remuneration above €70,000 is our threshold.

Deputy Anne Ferris

There were some people earning well over €70,000 in recent years. Does this apply to all the charities and organisations?

Mr. Brendan Rogers

Yes, there are three or four charities which are much larger than the rest. Many of them are quite small. We would have an interest in how all of these charities are run and strive for greater openness from them. We will be pushing the results and openness agenda. In fairness, this is being welcomed by the charities.

Deputy Anne Ferris

That is good given the amount of public moneys going to charities. When one reads in the newspaper that board members of a charity are resigning and there are issues of governance, it becomes a matter of concern because it is taxpayers' money. Questions have to be asked and the charities must do their business properly.

Under the civil society fund in 2010, some 77 different NGOs and, through the former Irish Missionary Resource Service, 87 missionary organisations were given funding. Would the Department get accounts from all of these organisations?

Mr. Brendan Rogers

Yes. I worked in Uganda until 2000 when I came back to the Department. At that time, we used to fund a wide range of different missionary groups, both directly from headquarters and from our missions in the field. At the time, we felt there was a need for a greater cohesion and to empower the missionaries to determine their priorities. I had lived in and travelled around Africa for 12 years and saw the excellent work they were doing on the ground. I felt there was a need for a more programmatic approach back at home.

As a result of that, the Irish Missionary Resource Service was established which has become Misean Cara, an organisation run by the missionaries for the missionaries with an independent board. It receives a grant from the Department each year of approximately €16 million. These funds are distributed to the different missionary groups based on their submitted plans. All of those projects are then audited by the missionary group and presented back to Misean Cara. The Department audits the entire amount and carries out evaluations every now and again. It is much more comprehensive and programmatic approach to support the work they are doing.

We have been pushing them a little bit on the results agenda as well. It is a difficult process when changing the way one does business. They tended to focus on the inputs such as how many children were taught or how many books were provided. We have been persuading them, successfully, to move the focus to the levels of the outcomes such as to what level of education have the children reached.

Deputy Anne Ferris

Is Mr. Rogers happy the money is properly tracked?

Mr. Brendan Rogers

Yes. I spent 12 years in Africa and travelled the length and breadth of many of the countries in which I lived with missionaries and saw their work. Occasionally, something goes wrong but the value we get from the missionaries is incredible and they do it for very little.

Mr. David Cooney

When considering the missionaries, we need to take account of the extraordinary intangible benefit we get from them. When one encounters other diplomatic representatives from African countries, many of them will talk about their encounters with Irish missionaries. They have an entirely positive attitude towards Ireland. It is not just about how many children they teach, there is also an enormous amount of good will generated towards Ireland which pays off all the way along in international organisations and in business.

Deputy Anne Ferris

We all remember the African missions from our school days. How much is spent on administration in the various groups?

Mr. Brendan Rogers

Our administration is very lean. We are around 6% which is one of the lowest. Good administration is between 6% and 8% in terms of an overall donor like ourselves. For an NGO it is higher, between 10% and 15%. When one is working in dangerous areas, there are costs for vehicles, security, insurance, etc. In general, anything between 10% and 12% is good administration and, in general, that is what the organisations in question would spend on administration and project support. The missionaries would be lower than that still.

In the 6% spend by Irish Aid we extract from everything. It is absolutely transparent with nothing hidden. It accounts for every single penny we spend on administration both at headquarters and in the field.

Deputy Anne Ferris

When people donate to a charity, they like to know all their money is going to a particular cause rather than paying salaries.

In addition to these organisations and missionaries, nine embassies and one consulate get finding to support small scale development projects. Which embassies are these?

Mr. Brendan Rogers

Essentially, we have nine programme countries: two in Asia and seven in Africa. Shortly, we will have eight, when the embassy in Dili is closed. We have Hanoi in Vietnam and Dili. In Africa we have Tanzania, Uganda, Ethiopia, Mozambique, Lesotho and Malawi. We also have an embassy in South Africa and that has a smaller programme there.

Most of the moneys we deliver in Africa and in Asia are delivered through Government systems. It is one of the lessons I learned from the missionaries. When I travelled through Africa and I met the missionaries, sometimes we used to bring some money to help them fix a school or put on a roof. They always asked us to tell the minister for education the children needed books and teachers and the schools needed to be fixed, which was essentially what we should have been doing. They needed us to fix the system because what the missionaries were trying to do was deliver locally. That, in a sense, shaped my own thinking, that we need to fix the ministry of education and the health and education policies. If we can do that, then the NGOs and the missionaries can deliver a better service down the line. In those seven countries in Africa, we are involved in the ministries of health, education, water and sanitation, in anti-corruption commissions and with the comptroller and auditor general. We are funding at different levels in different countries, depending on the needs, to build the systems that will ensure there is no need for development assistance 20 or 30 years from now. Our aim is an exit strategy. We aim not to be there 20 or 30 years from now.

There are some amazing changes happening in Africa, which is switching and changing. Of those seven countries in Africa, we believe three will hit middle income status in the next 20 years. That would have been unheard of ten years ago. It is still very difficult. The jury is out, but I would say Tanzania, Zambia and Uganda will probably hit middle income status. That would have been unheard of ten years ago.

Deputy Anne Ferris

Rather than us helping people, the policy is we are helping them to help themselves.

Mr. Brendan Rogers

That has to be the only way one can work. Otherwise, it is charity. Charity has a role. We are in development co-operation. While charity definitely has a role, our aim is to do ourselves out of a job.

Our embassies in Africa 20 years from now should be doing trade. Africa has the greatest potential, in terms of resources, trade and economic growth, in the next 50 years. There was a well-known study two years ago called "Lions on the move". That is where the resources are. There are less tarmacadamed roads in sub-Saharan Africa than in Switzerland. Can one imagine the resources and trade opportunities that would be available? I think Ireland would be well positioned to take advantage of those as well.

Deputy Anne Ferris

Mr. Rogers and Mr. Cooney named the embassies. I will not ask them to name the 77 NGOs and the 87 missionaries, but perhaps they could send a list of those to the committee.

Mr. Brendan Rogers

We will do that. We hope to put that up on our website shortly so that all the payments we make to NGOs are available to the committee and to the public. We will send the committee a full list of Irish and international NGOs, what we pay them and what they are doing.

Deputy Anne Ferris

To reiterate the point, it is public money and there is considerable public interest in this. I thank Mr. Rogers and Mr. Cooney.

Chairman

Before proceeding to Deputy O'Donnell, I wish to clarify that while I asked about the leases abroad, I forgot to ask about the nine buildings leased here. The Department has nine buildings leased here. Is that correct?

Mr. David Cooney

The OPW looks after our buildings here and it pays the leases. I think the only lease we have is on Findlater House, which is funded from within the Irish Aid programme. That is the information and volunteering centre at the top of O'Connell Street.

Chairman

The Department's accounts state the Department has occupied ten buildings within the State. One is State-owned and nine are leased.

Mr. David Cooney

Nine would be leased, but-----

Chairman

The nine that are leased are leased by the OPW.

Mr. David Cooney

Yes.

Chairman

Does Mr. Cooney have those figures?

Mr. David Cooney

No. We do not pay the rents on them.

Chairman

Were the two buildings, the Hague building and the Brussels building, owned by the Department?

Mr. David Cooney

They were owned and we sold them.

Chairman

The Hague building was valued at €595,000.

Mr. David Cooney

I am told they were sold. In fact, the Brussels building was owned by the OPW. We occupied it but the agency-----

Chairman

I will come to that. The Hague building was valued at €595,000 and the Department sold it for €607,514, which is fair enough. Am I correct in reading that the Brussels building was valued at roughly €6.6 million and it was sold for €5 million?

Mr. David Cooney

That was entirely handled by the OPW.

Chairman

I knew it could not have been Mr. Cooney.

Mr. David Cooney

Sorry?

Chairman

I knew it could not have been Mr. Cooney. Did the OPW lose €1 million on it?

Mr. David Cooney

I presume the market was not great at the time. I do not know why.

Chairman

Does the Department of Public Expenditure know about that? It was valued at €6.6 million and sold for €5 million.

Mr. Frank Griffin

Mr. Cooney is correct. The valuation on the accounts would have been on the basis of regular updates whereas, as the Chairman will be aware, the ultimate arbiter of value is the market. When OPW went to the market to sell the building, €5 million was the most it could realise.

Chairman

We should write to the OPW to see how much it was purchased for, the valuation and how much it was sold for.

Mr. Frank Griffin

The OPW will be able to provide those figures. I would point out that the building was purchased ten or 15 years ago and the market has moved significantly, both up and down, in the interim. I suppose the point I would make is that one cannot draw terribly interesting conclusions from the difference between the book value and the market price.

Chairman

Only in real terms, if one lost or won on the merry-go-round. That is all I want to find out.

Mr. Frank Griffin

The OPW will be able to supply all of those figures.

Chairman

The clerk to the committee will write to the OPW. I call Deputy O'Donnell.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

I want to touch on a couple of matters. Has Mr. Cooney's remit changed much since trade has come under the Department? He referred to the fact that when he looked at all the embassies, trade became a particular focus. Did it re-focus or change the emphasis in terms of how the Department viewed embassies?

To follow-on from that, there has been much talk and confusion about the embassy to the Vatican vis-à-vis the embassy to Rome itself. I refer specifically in terms of the cost. What was the cost of renting the embassy in Rome? My understanding is that the embassy to the Vatican borders two streets and is on a corner. My understanding is that it is in Italy rather than in the Vatican. Am I correct on that? Was it looked at, on a practical level, that common sense would prevail and that, in essence, there would be two embassies in the one building? Contrary to what the public might be aware of, the embassy to the Vatican was not in the Vatican but on Italian soil. I would have thought that, purely on a management level, the Department could have found a way. The building housing the Italian embassy was rented. The Department could have found a way to bring in workmen to divide the building and have two separate addresses or two separate entrances and, effectively, have two embassies and continue as is, with a saving in terms of the rent of the building of the Italian embassy. Could Mr. Cooney boil it down? I suppose I only want to bring it down to common sense so that we would find out exactly the position in that area, moving on from the decision made.

Mr. David Cooney

On Deputy O'Donnell's first question about whether the transfer of the trade portfolio changed much of the way we do business, the answer is not much, because we have been doing trade for a number of years. This re-focusing and reorienting of the Department's activity on trade has been something that has been happening for well over a decade. In a way, getting the title "Trade" in the name of the Department allowed us to admit to the guilty secret that we have been working on trade all along but we were not allowed to say so because it was the responsibility of another Department.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

I assume the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation is fully aware of that.

Mr. David Cooney

We can now admit that we work on trade related matters. It has worked in that respect. Since the economic downturn at the end of 2008, we started to focus more on Ireland's image, economic promotion and reputational issues. One of the first things I did when I returned was set up a unit in our promotion division to deal with reputational issues and issue real-time rebuttals to our embassies on the comments then being made about the Irish economy. Some of these comments turned out to be true in the end but we tried to rebut them at the time.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

The ambassador and staff in Berlin do an excellent job.

Mr. David Cooney

One of the most rewarding aspects of being an ambassador is promoting Ireland. The feeling that one might be creating jobs or bringing investment to Ireland is as good as it gets when one is working abroad. The Department has taken on the extra responsibilities of the Export Trade Council and the trade missions but we have not radically changed the way we do our work because trade has been an important part of our business for some time. We have a modest amount of additional resources for that purpose and we have refocused the way we do business to bring trade to the centre of our relationships across the board.

As regards the embassy to the Holy See, the total saving on rent is €445,000 per year. The Deputy accurately summed up the situation. The Vatican is a small place and all the embassies to the Holy See are situated on territory of the Republic of Italy. Our embassy was located in the Villa Spada, which held the residence of the ambassador to the Holy See as well as the offices.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

Where is the residence of the ambassador to Italy?

Mr. David Cooney

It was in another building for which we were paying rent.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

Is that accounted for in the €445,000 or is it an additional expense?

Mr. David Cooney

It is included in the €445,000. We rented two properties in Rome for the embassy to Italy. One was the ambassador's residence and the other was for the offices or the so-called chancellery.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

The embassy to the Holy See owned a building with an attached residence for the ambassador.

Mr. David Cooney

The Villa Spada contained both the residence and the offices. The offices were quite small because the embassy was small. The diplomats from the embassy to the Holy See have gone. One retired before we closed and the other returned at the beginning of the year.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

There were two people.

Mr. David Cooney

There was an ambassador and a secretary. We have moved the residence of the ambassador to Italy to the Villa Spada and we cut the lease on his former residence. Later in the year, after refurbishment work, we will move the offices of the Embassy to Italy to the Villa Spada.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

Is the Villa Spada being extended?

Mr. David Cooney

We are not extending it but we are reconfiguring the premises. Effectively, there is a big building and a garage block. We are using the garage block for part of the embassy.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

It was not used.

Mr. David Cooney

It was not used as office space.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

This is what I find difficult to understand. The building is being renovated -----

Mr. David Cooney

It is a modest refurbishment.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

It is being renovated, however. The embassy to the Vatican employed two staff. How many work in the Italian embassy?

Mr. David Cooney

We have four diplomats and nine or ten local staff.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

A total of 13 people work in the Italian embassy, compared with two in the Vatican embassy. From what I can see, the latter was relatively small. What was the cost of running it?

Mr. David Cooney

It cost €420,000 for the whole embassy, excluding diplomats' wages.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

How was it costing €420,000 to run a relatively small embassy? The Department was paying €445,000 for a building for the Italian embassy.

Mr. David Cooney

The saving of €445,000 is just on the rent. That was not the figure for the cost of running the embassy to Rome, which was €1.2 million.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

The cost of the Italian embassy was €445,000 plus €1.2 million, or approximately €1.7 million. The cost of running the Embassy to the Vatican was €420,000. That seems very high.

Mr. David Cooney

One has to run the building, which is the biggest in our entire property portfolio.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

I am asking about the Vatican.

Mr. David Cooney

This is what I am speaking about. We had to maintain the building.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

Mr. Cooney said it was the biggest property in the Department's portfolio. I thought the Vatican embassy was small.

Mr. David Cooney

If one put the residence and the office space together, it is the biggest State-owned property in the portfolio.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

Is Mr. Cooney telling me that the Vatican embassy is the largest property in the Department's portfolio?

Mr. David Cooney

It was the largest property we owned.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

If it is the largest property, why was it not possible to adapt it rather than allow all that has happened?

Mr. David Cooney

I will explain. In regard to size, the Villa Spada as currently configured cannot accommodate the two embassies.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

There were only two people in the Vatican embassy. It is very small.

Mr. David Cooney

There would also be service staff and local office staff. If we go back, I imagine it will be a one diplomat mission with one local member of staff. The problem is that there are all kinds of requirements are created on the part of the Vatican about how these matters can be arranged.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

Mr. Cooney has a job to do. The largest building in the Department's property portfolio is on Italian soil and is now housing the Italian embassy. The Department has saved €145,000 straight away but it continues to incur costs of €1.2 million. What is the net saving?

Mr. David Cooney

Closing the embassy to the Holy See provides a net saving of €845,000 in a full year.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

By combining the two embassies the Department saved €845,000. It strikes me that the only other opportunity cost would be to find a way of allocating two members of staff to deal with the Vatican. Mr. Cooney referred to missionaries and the intangible benefits of the embassy. I always view issues on the basis of opportunity cost. I understand the Villa Spada opens on to two streets. The Department could have come up with an innovative mechanism of saving €835,000, although I do not know the cost of the additional staff. That strikes me as the practical solution. There clearly is a symbolic element to the Vatican embassy as well as a practical purpose. Is this being discussed? It does not strike me as a huge additional cost because the Department is incurring the cost of the building itself. The building appears to be a very large building and there was certainly a practical advantage to moving because they are both on Italian soil. Most of the public would not be aware of that and it needs to be brought into the realms of practicality.

Mr. David Cooney

I will gladly answer the Deputy's question. The issue here is the policy of the Vatican in terms of co-location. The Vatican authorities have very strict rules to prevent embassies doubling. They state the same person cannot be ambassador to Italy and ambassador to the Holy See. I think that is pretty understandable because everyone would do it and they would not spend much time on Holy See business. However, they have other issues as regards physical co-location and they have very clear rules. For instance the two ambassadors cannot co-reside.

In terms of how one might have the two office spaces situated side by side, it has rules on that. I am discussing with them to see, if down the road as the economic situation improves and, as the Tánaiste has said, the Government comes to reconsider the issue, how we can do it and how we could reopen on the most cost-effective basis. I am looking at that. One of the problems with this is that the Vatican is keen to stick to its rules. This is one of those kinds of issues where the less said the better.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

It is an ecumenical matter.

Mr. David Cooney

Frankly, I know that-----

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

It is Jesuitical in ways.

Mr. David Cooney

People who want to see the embassy reopened are understandably vocal about it, but in terms of trying to bring it about, the less said the better.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

I have no doubt.

Mr. David Cooney

I am not saying that about the Deputy. I am talking to the Vatican. I do not want to go into the details. I hope if the situation arises that we can do this, it would be possible to do it. My concern, clearly, is that if we can do it, as I hope we can, we can do it on the most cost-effective basis.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

Would there be merit in the practicality of using the-----

Mr. David Cooney

If we can do it, absolutely. On the two streets, this is one of the things the Vatican insists on.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

Am I correct in my-----

Mr. David Cooney

The property is actually on three different streets.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

That makes it even better We might even locate three embassies there.

Mr. David Cooney

The World Food Programme is there and some people have embassies or the Order of Malta. One can take one's pick.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

I am making light, but it is important.

Mr. David Cooney

I want to make this point. The Embassy to the Holy See retains an address in Rome and it is on a different street.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

I ask Mr. Cooney to explain that.

Mr. David Cooney

We have a post box address for the embassy to the Holy See and it is on a different Street. It is the Villa Spada, but on a different street.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

Is it on a different street but in that building?

Mr. David Cooney

It is a different address and the Vatican insists that-----

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

Is it a different address but going to the same building?

Mr. David Cooney

It is going into a different part of the complex.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

Therefore, the Department is clearly thinking ahead. All that is needed is to bring in a few workmen and open the door.

Mr. David Cooney

I assure the Deputy if the time comes that the Government feels it can reopen, we will have explored every possible opportunity for doing this as efficiently and as cost-effectively as possible.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

Can I take it the Vatican finds it acceptable we have this separate postal address from the Italian Embassy?

Mr. David Cooney

Yes.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

Obviously discussions are ongoing. At times many things are complicated. There is a building the State owns. The geography of it is such that it would be possible to have a different address which the Department has already done and which I welcome. With a bit of ingenuity and diplomacy on the Department's part, it could get to the point where people will get into a functioning set up where effectively the Vatican embassy is re-established - it already has a postal address there - in its former residence. We would then be back to a practical solution to an issue about which people have concerns. At the same time the Department clearly has issues with finding ways to make cost savings. I welcome that. Is there a timeframe? Are discussions ongoing?

Mr. David Cooney

This is a Government decision. The Tánaiste said at the weekend the decision will not be reversed immediately. The Taoiseach has said the same thing, that it could be revisited as the economic situation improves. As regards dealing with the Vatican, frankly, the more specifics people demand, the more difficult it becomes. From the Vatican's point of view flexibility is more likely to be forthcoming if it is not put up in lights about a particular arrangement. It has its rules. It may make exceptions, but it does not want to broadcast these exceptions because it would make its life difficult with everyone else. For people who really want to see progress, the best thing they could do would be to let things happen quietly and if the issue is to be revisited, I would say it is more likely to happen in a year or two.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I apologise for my late arrival. I have some questions in respect of the pay to CEOs of boards. Mr. Rogers told my colleague that the Department has a threshold level of €70,000.

Mr. Brendan Rogers

It is a €70,000 threshold where we want to know the number of people.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

It is in receipt of it.

Mr. Brendan Rogers

It is not that one cannot get any more.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Certainly.

Mr. Brendan Rogers

That is a matter for the board.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

How many are receiving more than €70,000?

Mr. Brendan Rogers

I cannot give the Deputy the exact figure right now in all of the NGOs. We can get the Deputy that figure, but I would say it is five or six.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

It is a modest number.

Mr. Brendan Rogers

It is a relatively modest number.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Let me say for the record that the NGOs do tremendous work and should be fairly remunerated. Let us imagine the Department discovered somebody was in receipt of a salary that would raise eyebrows. What power of intervention does the Department have?

Mr. Brendan Rogers

We would not have legal power of intervention in a non-governmental organisation to reduce the salary level, but we have powers of influence. We have a partnership approach. We share objectives and a general view of life that is very similar. We fund them and we have monthly or bi-monthly meetings with them. We would be talking to the board and management and would let them know this is an issue about which we need to talk. The €70,000 threshold is a relatively new matter.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Since when has it applied?

Mr. Brendan Rogers

It is for the new funding round. We would try to use our influence and we have a lot of influence. They are very reasonable people and we would try to have a negotiated solution to that. We are not aware of anybody in the NGOs who is on an enormous salary, given the overall turnover of such organisations. Probably the highest paid would be those linked, perhaps, to public service salaries at a certain level. There might be three or four linked to that. Most of them would be in the middle income areas.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

While I do not suggest this is a widespread phenomenon, as a matter of good practice given that the Department is the funder, would it not be preferable for the Department to have as a safety net - to use a current term that is very much in vogue - the capacity to intervene more directly? Obviously gentle persuasion and negotiation represent the Department's first option, but perhaps it should have a more direct option should it prove necessary.

Mr. Brendan Rogers

We, the Government, have the ultimate sanction, which is to determine whether we are going to fund. That happens after a very detailed appraisal process. That has to take into account governance issues. That sanction exists in determining whether we are going to fund an organisation. We would take into account all the governance issues - the wide diversity of issues - and in terms of what the organisation is doing, the turnover, its results on the ground and the overhead administrative charge, which is essential.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Has that sanction ever been exercised in recent times?

Mr. Brendan Rogers

Not in terms of remuneration.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I ask the witnesses to bear with me if I jump from topic to topic. I want to ask about a number of matters of interest to me. The first is in respect of Vote 28. I want to ask about the level of support for Irish emigrant services. According to the figures in front of us for 2009 and 2010 there has been a cut. Will Mr. Cooney indicate for the committee how these moneys break down?

Mr. David Cooney

In terms of how much is spent on-----

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Yes please.

Mr. David Cooney

And what various figures have to-----

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

If it is of assistance to Mr. Cooney, I would like a particular eye on the Irish in Britain.

Mr. David Cooney

We had managed to sustain the cuts to which Deputy MacDonald referred without impacting on services to the Irish in Britain. As the Deputy can probably tell from my accent nothing is closer to my heart than the programmes for emigrants. I will be honest and state the level of funding we had in 2008 and 2009 was probably more than we needed as at the end of several years we found we had funded everything. Therefore these cutbacks could be borne, and we took another 10% cut this year, without impacting on the level of services. In 2010 we had €8.136 million for Britain, €2.035 million for the US, almost €1 million was spent in Ireland to fund organisations helping returned emigrants, €400,000 for Australia and New Zealand, €76,000 for Canada, €46,000 for South Africa and Zimbabwe, €16,000 for Argentina and €224,000 spread among other places. The bulk of the work we do is in Britain-----

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I am aware of that.

Mr. David Cooney

-----which is where the bulk of the elderly and disadvantaged Irish are to be found. The contractions we have had over recent years have not impacted on this core activity. If anything it has impacted on the capital work we have been doing. The global Irish network is also funded from this subhead.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I will come to that.

Mr. David Cooney

I am satisfied the assistance we give to the elderly and disadvantaged Irish in Britain and throughout the world has not been impacted upon by these cuts.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Does Mr. Cooney accept this is not necessarily a view shared by some of the Irish, specifically in Britain?

Mr. David Cooney

It would be the same anywhere. People never have as much as they would like. My view is that the programme we are running there has not been impacted materially.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I know Mr. Cooney is guided by the Minister and the Government. The view of people I have met in places I have visited is that the cuts have had an impact and the allocations as they stood were quite modest in relative terms.

At present, we again have very high rates of emigration. Bearing this in mind will Mr. Cooney revisit his statement that the modest budget lines are still adequate? His specific focus is on older emigrants and I see the merit of this, but given that we now have a haemorrhage from the country what is his view on these allocations? Will the services cope and are there plans to extend them?

Mr. David Cooney

Our view is that we can cope. In any organisation people will want more money, but our view is that the services we provide and support hit the right spots. We have a particular focus on the elderly and disadvantaged in Britain because they form a very vulnerable community but we have not by any means ignored the younger generation of Irish. We support groups that look after emigrants and emigrant centres. We support the development of the GAA, not in terms of its sporting activities but in terms of its social activities. The GAA has replaced the old Irish associations as in many places abroad it is the first port of call for young Irish and we support this aspect of its activities.

We are doing reasonably well with a modest amount of money. If we had more money we could spend it, and there is no question of that, but in the overall context of the public finances the amount of money the Government allocates is reasonable. We should feel reasonably proud of the fact that we set aside this money to help people who have had to go abroad.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

We are looking at historic figures for 2009 and 2010. I take the very strong view that given the changed circumstances, the level of emigration and the fact that it is not exclusively but predominantly younger people who are being forced to leave, these budget lines are utterly inadequate for providing any decent support or safety network for people. I understand decisions on allocations are, as the fellow says, above the pay grades of the witnesses so I am not necessarily asking for comment but I am raising it for this specific reason. However, as the accounting officer I am anxious to hear someone of Mr. Cooney's seniority being relaxed with regard to this. I am sure no more than me Mr. Cooney recognises the changed reality not only at home but abroad for so many people who have to leave. I ask him to reconsider this position and be slightly more ambitious in terms of what he deems appropriate. Should we get there perhaps we could all be proud of the service.

Mr. David Cooney

I would like to give more. I am the son of an emigrant and I did not set foot in this country until I was 20 years old. Nobody knows better than I do the situation of the Irish abroad. This was at a time when, believe me, things were much worse than they are now for the Irish abroad. If we had more money I would like to see it go there. Deputy MacDonald stated I am the Accounting Officer, which I am, and therefore I must try to make the books balance. If the Government wanted to give more money to this then I am sure we could use it very productively and constructively. We fund emigrant centres and we are providing more money for Australia, the United States and Canada.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

How much money is going to Australia now? I know Mr. Cooney cited some figures. What is the increase?

Mr. David Cooney

In 2010 the figure for Australia was €400,000. I do not know whether I have the precise breakdown for this year. For the most part these people are much better prepared for going abroad than the generations that left in the 1940s and 1950s. No one wants to see them emigrate and no one wants to see anybody leave the country. I remember standing up as ambassador in London giving speeches where I stated it was great the young Irish would never have to emigrate to get work. None of us wanted to be back in this situation.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I do not suggest for one moment that Mr. Cooney wishes to see this, I am merely pointing out the budgets are extremely slim-----

Mr. David Cooney

They are tight.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

-----and I was alarmed to hear the Accounting Officer for the Department express an initial view, on which he has now elaborated, that he was happy they were adequate. It is nonsensical to suggest that that would be sufficient in terms of the types of services and supports that our people in Australia might rightfully expect, many of whom, as Mr. Cooney will be aware, are deeply resentful of the fact that they find themselves in Australia.

I apologise for jumping from one issue to another. Mr. Cooney will perhaps understand from where I am coming as we move on. I am interested in the budget in respect of information services as provided for in Vote 28. Am I correct that the figure in this regard includes the spend in 2009 on the second referendum on the Lisbon treaty?

Mr. David Cooney

Yes.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I understand, having read through all of this documentation, that money was also allocated to a project entitled "Communicating Europe".

Mr. David Cooney

That is correct.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Perhaps Mr. Cooney will tell us the amount allocated to the European Movement.

Mr. David Cooney

That allocation has been reduced to €100,000. I am no longer the Accounting Officer with responsibility for spend of these moneys. The Secretary General at the Department of the Taoiseach now bears that responsibility.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I understand that these matters have been transferred to the Department of the Taoiseach. In terms of best use of budget, it strikes me as odd that the allocation to the European Movement, which is a political advocacy organisation, is one quarter of that allocated to support the Irish in Australia. That is pretty stunning.

What is the oversight of this funding? I understand it now rests with the Department of the Taoiseach. I presume the moneys paid to Communicating Europe and the European Movement are audited and that there is tight oversight in terms of that spend.

Mr. David Cooney

Yes. The amount allocated to the European Movement has been reduced in an effort to get it to the situation where it is raising its own funding. The allocation was reduced to €100,000 in 2011.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

What is its allocation in 2012?

Mr. David Cooney

I understand it will get the same allocation this year.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

How much is being allocated to the Communicating Europe project, which previously received €150,000?

Mr. David Cooney

That funding is being maintained at its current level. The allocation was much higher during the period when the Government was seeking approval of the Lisbon treaty.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I am sure it was.

Mr. David Cooney

There was a much greater need to educate the public on Europe at that time.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

To the best of Mr. Cooney's knowledge the allocation of €150,000, albeit responsibility for it now rests with the Department of the Taoiseach, is being maintained.

Mr. David Cooney

Yes. That is my understanding.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Is there within the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade an estimated spend on the austerity, or stability, treaty, depending on one's vantage point?

Mr. David Cooney

No.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

None whatsoever.

Mr. David Cooney

No. We have no subhead provision in that regard.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Thank you.

The global Irish initiative, which took place at Farmleigh, was an excellent initiative. While there has been much discussion on the diaspora we have never managed to get our act together in that regard. The cost in respect of that forum for September 2009 was just over €330,000. Perhaps Mr. Cooney will bring us up to speed in terms of the figures for the more recent meeting of that forum.

Mr. David Cooney

The budget for the 2011 forum, despite being a larger event, came in at €277,819.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Did that take place over one or two days?

Mr. David Cooney

It took place over two days. The main saving was on site costs. It was considerably cheaper to hold the forum in Dublin Castle than at Farmleigh because the Dublin Castle venue did not have to be expanded. We had to erect marquees, etc., at Farmleigh. However, because the Dublin Castle site was almost double the size of Farmleigh, catering was more expensive second time round. Savings in respect of facilitation were also achieved. As this was provided on a pro bono basis by the Smurfit Business School, we did not as a result have expenditure on the website side. The difference was not great but I am pleased to say that savings were achieved despite the conference being twice the size this time round.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

How many delegates attended?

Mr. David Cooney

There were approximately 340 delegates at the second conference. That includes some 240 people who attended from abroad, plus the Irish based contingent.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

The cost in respect of the second conference was approximately €277,000?

Mr. David Cooney

Yes.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I know I am being repetitive but that is almost two thirds of the allocation for the Irish in Australia.

Mr. David Cooney

As I stated, I am unfortunately unable to find the figure for this year. The figure for Australia this year may be higher than it was in 2010. I take the Deputy's point.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Perhaps I might make a suggestion on this issue, in which I am particularly interested. Could Mr. Cooney provide us with the up-to-date figures in terms of the spend globally on emigrant supports and, in particular, for Britain and Australia?

Mr. David Cooney

I will be able to provide the figure for 2011. I cannot do so in respect of 2012 as we are only in the allocation phase.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Thank you.

I do not necessarily want to stray into the issue of policy but, in terms of the development aid budget I presume, given our current circumstances, that it is unlikely we will hit the UN target next year or the year after, which is a pity but a reality. In terms of good governance and the need to address corruption in some instances and various types of instability in others, perhaps the relevant witness will tell the committee what type of controls are exercised and what type of monitoring procedures are in place in terms of reassurance in respect of donor countries.

I cannot let this opportunity pass without saying that this branch of Irish policy - the developmental branch - is truly a credit to the State and the Department.

Mr. David Cooney

I thank the Deputy for her kind comments. I will ask Mr. Brendan Rogers to comment in a moment on the detail of what we are doing on the Government side. I could not agree more with the Deputy that the Irish Aid project is something of which we should be proud. It is the Members of the Oireachtas who have decided to maintain this Vote at this level; without their support for it and if successive Governments had not maintained it, we would not have been able to implement it. We remain committed to reaching the 0.7% goal, but we must be realistic in current circumstances. We have not said we will not get to it, but as time passes, the jump that will be required to achieve it will be greater. There are probably good odds to be had from Paddy Power on whether we will make it.

With regard to corporate governance, we put much effort into it. There is a considerable amount of money in the programme spent on audits, evaluations and ensuring the initiatives we put in place are meeting targets. Increasingly, there is involvement by the audit and evaluation authorities in programme countries which we are supporting and helping to grow. Increasingly, we are finding that where money is misspent, this is identified by local evaluation authorities. That is part of domestic development and trying to help programme countries to reach a certain level of development. Nobody can put a hand on heart and say every penny is spent in the way it should be allocated, but we do everything possible to ensure that is the case. We are particularly vigilant and when anything untoward is discovered, it is immediately acted upon, aid is suspended and the Comptroller and Auditor General is informed of the issue. The matter would be dealt with rigorously.

Mr. Brendan Rogers

Governance is the foundations of the programme and if we do not get it right, the programme will not work. We have zero tolerance of fraud and want an open and transparent process that can be examined by members, the audit committee and the Comptroller and Auditor General. That will ensure the programme will have future support.

There are two elements in general governance, the first of which is financial accounting governance, with the money being spent as it is supposed to be. The other is mainstream policy governance, the building of good governance for the future. We have a reasonably well staffed audit and evaluation unit and at 12 people, it is the largest we have had. We are spending a little over €1.5 million on audits every year, with most being carried out by independent companies and organisations. We go into every aspect of the programme at one point or another through a forensic audit. These audit and evaluation reports are given to our audit committee and the Secretary General and if there are particular issues raised, we bring them to the attention of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

At policy level, if we want to ensure the countries in which we work are sustainably developed in order that they will not need development co-operation, we must work on the issue of governance. We are funding versions of the Comptroller and Auditor General and human rights commissions. We are also getting into the issue of some police reform which is both difficult and risky. In particular, we are working with the police in Uganda. Gardaí are working with it in what is a difficult and risky environment. As the Secretary General said, most of the fraud information we read internationally - from Africa, for example - comes from internal organisations. It is a work in progress, but there has been enormous progress in the past ten years.

We have expended considerable resources on public financial management in the past two years. In every country which we partner we are examining the public financial management processes. It is a difficult task and we have robust conversations, but the end result is a much more robust public financial management system. However, as the Secretary General mentioned, there is fraud and when that happens, there is zero tolerance.

Deputy Shane Ross

Vote 29 deals with international co-operation. Most of the figures are decreasing every year for obvious reasons. However, the amount going to the Palestinian Authority seems to have increased significantly and the provisional amount for 2011 has increased again. What is the purpose of this money and on what is it spent?

Mr. Brendan Rogers

It is spent through a trust fund primarily on teacher salaries and education programmes, although there are a number of civil society organisations which we assist also. A large sum goes to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency, UNRWA, for its work with Palestinians.

Deputy Shane Ross

How is it decided that this funding should go up at a time when other funding figures are going down? Is it a political decision, or does it come from the Department?

Mr. Brendan Rogers

Overall, the amount going to the Palestinian side is small enough - €3 million to €5 million. We look at results and needs before making recommendations. UNRWA does a good job and is the best way to deliver funding. Education is very important in that regard. We should maintain that commitment.

Deputy Shane Ross

I do not have a problem with that, but I wonder why the amount of funding for South Africa has gone down, while funding for the Palestinian Authority has increased.

Mr. Brendan Rogers

South Africa is now seen as a middle income country, with a per capita income much higher than that in Palestine. We take decisions based on absorbative capacities. The South African programme is changing slightly, therefore, as it is a middle income country. We will reduce our aid and focus it more on the provision of technical assistance. In Palestine the aid is still very much to meet basic needs.

Deputy Shane Ross

The basis is income.

Mr. Brendan Rogers

It is one element, but it does not form the entire basis. We also consider poverty focus; in South Africa income per capita is over $3,000, while the figure for Palestine is much smaller.

Deputy Shane Ross

Sierra Leone would not be seen to be a particularly well off country, but the funding for it has decreased.

Mr. Brendan Rogers

Sierra Leone is a fragile state and a difficult place in which to operate. We have a small office there. There are issues to do with absorbative capacity and we would like to put more in which I hope we can do in due course. With regard to governance, it is a very difficult state in which to work if we consider the issue of corruption. We must examine how every penny is spent. However, the country is making progress and I would see the amount of funding beginning to increase in the coming years.

Deputy Shane Ross

Does Zimbabwe fall into the same category?

Mr. Brendan Rogers

I lived there for many years. Zimbabwe has moved from being a middle income state to being one of the poorest in the world. There are major governance issues. We do not deliver through the government systems, rather we work through non-governmental organisations and UN agencies. Much of the money is emergency funding. We would like to see the funding increase in due course.

Deputy Shane Ross

The aid goes through government agencies in Sierra Leone but not Zimbabwe.

Mr. Brendan Rogers

We do not go through government agencies in either Sierra Leone or Zimbabwe.

Deputy Shane Ross

One figure has gone up, while the other has gone down.

Mr. Brendan Rogers

It has to do with absorbative capacity. There are more NGOs working on the ground, for example, in Zimbabwe. Sierra Leone is a very fragile state and a difficult place in which to work. We have embassies surrounding Zimbabwe and can get through there much more quickly and easily.

Deputy Shane Ross

Whose idea was it to establish the Global Economic Forum?

Mr. David Cooney

There is a dispute about ownership. The Deputy may be hoping I will accept that Mr. David McWilliams was involved in the gestation of the project. Both he and the former Minister, Deputy Michéal Martin, were present at the first meeting I attended. I was there at the beginning. Mr. McWilliams, however, does deserve some recognition for the seeds. How the forum has turned out is not quite how he envisaged it when it started. It has had a heavy Civil Service input along the way. Mr. McWilliams has been involved with the project all the way through and is still involved. He is working on a particular initiative which emerged from the last forum.

Deputy Shane Ross

I presume he was not responsible for the invitation list.

Mr. David Cooney

No, he probably was not. The invitation list probably recommended itself. I know there has been some retrospective comment on it.

Deputy Shane Ross

I apologise if the witness covered this area previously when I was not present but could he tell us what have been the main benefits of that? The cost is very low, presumably because everybody paid for themselves.

Mr. David Cooney

The people who come pay their own air fares. We will, if they wish, pay for a hotel room. However, many of these people would prefer to accommodate themselves rather than accept the rather meagre fare we offer. It is a cheap gig in that sense.

Deputy Shane Ross

Are there tangible benefits?

Mr. David Cooney

A very large number of tangible benefits have come from it. In the immediate term, the biggest benefit is probably the intangible one of linking up with this global Irish community, the benefit we have had from their advice and the energy these people bring, and the networks that have been created as a result. In terms of tangible outcomes, we have the Global Irish Network which is up and running. It has a dedicated website where people communicate with each other. A number of projects came out of the last one. We had the "Imagine Ireland" campaign in the US, and the focus on the impact of Irish culture abroad. The Farmleigh fellowship programme established in Singapore, the Irish Technology Leadership Group in Silicon Valley and various support business networks emerged from the first meeting, as did the Irish network established by John McColgan.

At this one people signed up to be advocates. There are five different panels of advocates where people signed up to work with the State agencies in terms of advocating Ireland abroad in their various areas of expertise. I will check to see if I have the full list with me. We have produced a list of priorities and on St. Patrick's Day a number of the initiatives were launched. The Clinton "Invest in Ireland" event emerged from the Global Irish Economic Forum. I mentioned the advocacy system and there is also mentoring. There is Global Irish Network involvement with trade missions and our embassies abroad, and our ambassadors are now meeting on a regular basis with the local networks in terms of identifying and encouraging trade and investment opportunities. A micro financing project has emerged; David McWilliams is working on a private sector investment fund based on the Koret Israel Economic Development Funds.

The document is in the public domain. A wide range of benefits have come from it.

Deputy Shane Ross

Michael O'Leary called the Global Irish Economic Forum a photo opportunity. I am worried that while it is worthy there is no actual visible return.

Mr. David Cooney

I cannot accept that.

Deputy Shane Ross

Is there more employment in Ireland as a result of it? Have many jobs been created?

Mr. David Cooney

It is very difficult to say that X job was created precisely because of the forum, but there is no doubt that businessmen came together, initiatives have emerged and people have been employed on the basis of this. Even members of the network have been employed. Jobs have been created. In fact, at the Clinton event there were approximately 500 job announcements. I cannot say absolutely that those jobs would not have been announced were it not for the forum, but for a spend of €300,000 the energy, goodwill, the networking that took place and the advice one got alone would have been worth that. If one went to consultant and tried to buy that type of advice, one would not buy it for €300,000. I am absolutely certain that jobs have been created indirectly. Nobody said at the forum: "I am announcing 200 jobs at this forum", but we have young people being trained in Singapore and Silicon Valley through these scholarships who might not otherwise get jobs. Goodwill has developed towards Ireland. Not all these people are Irish, by the way. A number of them are people who are engaged with Ireland through business connections. I do not wish to criticise Michael O'Leary. He does a terrific job running an airline but just because he says it is a dud does not mean it is a dud.

Deputy Shane Ross

I know, but it is a challenge that should be defended by those who promote the Global Irish Economic Forum.

Mr. David Cooney

Even the progress report that was published on St. Patrick's Day, which was probably placed in the Oireachtas Library, contains enough to prove it was worthwhile. In addition, the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste sent a joint newsletter to all the members of the forum - another will be sent out at the end of this month - updating and briefing them on developments. We are in contact with these people and give them information about developments in the Irish economy. We have all these advocates and champions around the world that were not being as fully exploited in terms of generating a return for Ireland in the past. The wonderful thing is that these people, who are incredibly busy, are prepared to give up their time and money. They say: "What can I do for Ireland?" It is a tremendous resource. This is so successful that we have had other governments approaching us to ask how we did it. The Americans were very interested in this and wanted to see if it could be used as a template for other countries. They are particularly interested in the soft power of emigrant communities in the US. Other countries, including developing countries, have approached us. They have big global communities too and they see us harnessing our potential so they wish to learn from that. It is something of a model in terms of what it has achieved. It is intangible but there are some very concrete outputs at the same time.

Deputy Shane Ross

The idea is fine, but I doubt that one could point to the unemployment figures and say they have improved as a result of it, because they have not.

Mr. David Cooney

I was not saying that.

Deputy Shane Ross

Many jobs have been created because growth in the economy has improved, but perhaps that has to come. The jury is out on it. What about the very concrete proposal whereby a large number of businessmen from overseas volunteered to serve on semi-State bodies? Have any of them had their offers accepted?

Mr. David Cooney

This came from the Irish Technology Leadership Group, Ireland 2016. This was the group's initiative. It drew up a list and put it out. There was some reaction from the Institute of Directors in Ireland. The Government is very much open to appointing people from outside.

Deputy Shane Ross

It has not appointed any.

Mr. David Cooney

It has not appointed any from this list, although people from outside the State have been appointed. It might not work quite as well as those who initiated this idea thought it would, that is, putting forward a list of volunteers and the Government would say, "Gee, thanks", and just distribute the posts. One must make sure the people are the right people.

Deputy Shane Ross

It does not do that at present. They could not be worse than the ones we have at present.

Mr. David Cooney

That is outside my territory. I am hopeful. We are working with John Hartnett and talking to him about this initiative. It would be a bad signal if it appeared they had been rebuffed and got the message that we are not interested. The Government should be interested in getting the right people into these positions. There is a wealth of experience, ideas and energy among Irish people who are successful abroad. This could be used for a positive end by bodies here.

Deputy Shane Ross

Is there any reason for the delay?

Mr. David Cooney

The reason is the way it is formatted. It will not run precisely as it is formatted but we want to get people on a panel so the Government can consider them for positions. Having a slate of volunteers who will automatically be taken onto State boards is not necessarily the way it will go. I salute the initiative of these people and it is tremendous that they want to help. The energy, volunteerism and positive attitude towards Ireland must be acknowledged and utilised. It is a matter of working out the right modalities for it.

Deputy Shane Ross

Are these people volunteering to do it free of charge?

Mr. David Cooney

My understanding is that it is pro bono in terms of directors’ fees.

Deputy Shane Ross

Is it not rather odd that people with such extraordinary qualifications have volunteered but are not being welcomed with open arms to State boards?

Mr. David Cooney

My Department has no State bodies reporting to it so I have no say-----

Deputy Shane Ross

And Mr. Cooney is not allowed to have opinions.

Mr. David Cooney

Not in the present situation.

Chairman

Regarding our presence abroad, the Department spent €200,000 on the Asia strategy in 2010. What is the figure for the last year and this year?

Mr. David Cooney

The standalone Asia strategy is being wound up into a broad trade strategy.

Chairman

Some €200,000 was spent in 2010.

Mr. David Cooney

It has been expanded because we received an additional €200,000 when we took on the trade portfolio. The subhead has been merged and expanded. The provisional outturn in 2011 was €320,000. We have an allocation of €400,000 this year, which is the same as last year when we took on the additional €200,000.

Chairman

What is the total for this year?

Mr. David Cooney

The allocation for 2012 is €400,000.

Chairman

We always had a trade presence in Taiwan but that was ended this year. How is that funded and will it be paid out of this money?

Mr. David Cooney

That was not funded by the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade.

Chairman

Is it funded by Enterprise Ireland?

Mr. David Cooney

It must have been. It is an agency rather than a Government body.

Chairman

Is that funded by the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade?

Mr. David Cooney

No. It is funded by the IDA.

Chairman

Regarding the Passport Office, some €36 million was raised in 2010, mainly from passport application fees. I presume the figure is increasing. Does €36 million pay for the office and is it self-financing in this way? Is there a need for new technology in the office in the context of new passports? How is it faring in the course of 2011 and this year?

Mr. David Cooney

I am delighted to say it is one of the Department's good news stories. Last year we turned around the situation. In 2010 we issued 603,753 passports at an average cost of €59.23, leading to a loss of €2.67 million. In 2011, we issued 599,468 at €52.81 and we ended with a profit of €4.22 million. It is a good news story and I pay tribute to Mr. Joe Nugent for his work. We have brought down the average cost of a passport. There were fee increases involved in that but we are now running the Passport Office at a profit rather than a loss.

Chairman

How is 2012 looking?

Mr. David Cooney

The application level is at its highest at the moment. I thank our colleagues at the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform because, with their assistance, we have managed to get in 128 temporary clerical assistants. They were trained and ready to go before applications took off and this year we are coping. In 2010 we had a dispute and last year we did not get in temporary clerical staff at the time we wanted and in the numbers we wanted. With the co-operation of the Department and the unions, we got staff in early. Turnaround time is about eight days, which is two days earlier than the ten-day promise on passport express.

Chairman

Is there a need for more investment in technology?

Mr. David Cooney

We would like to explore the possibility of developing an online application system for adult applicants. This could apply to people renewing their passports rather than first-time applicants. In the long term, we could cut down on resources required for checking. We would require new machinery if we do that. Two of the three machines we use for producing passports should be coming to the end of their lives but they are working. We do not have the money to replace them. In order to save in the long term, we must invest in the short term. With money scarce, it is difficult to find the money.

Deputy Derek Nolan

I welcome the witnesses and thank them for their work. I want to be associated with comments on overseas development aid from previous contributors. It is extremely important and brings pride and I congratulate the Department on its work.

Deputy McDonald referred to emigrant services. Has there been an increase in demand, given that emigration has increased? Many of the people emigrating, such as friends of mine and my brother, are going abroad to work or seek employment and will not have recourse to emigrant services. I imagine the services are directed at people who emigrated decades ago and are now elderly. Can Mr. Cooney provide an update?

Mr. David Cooney

The bulk of our services are directed at the elderly and the disadvantaged, emigrants from a different era who were prepared differently for emigration. The vast majority of people emigrating now are educated and are citizens of the world. They are comfortable abroad and do not require assistance. That said, there is a greater demand on emigration centres where people require immediate support when they arrive or people in the US inquiring about visas. There is an increasing demand for services in that sense but the majority of Irish people going abroad are young, working and able to cope for themselves. They are not as vulnerable as previous generations. There is a rise in demand for particular services but it is not a major element in the overall level of demand, which is still focused on a generation that is on the way out.

Deputy Derek Nolan

Is the service able to cope with the increase in demand?

Mr. David Cooney

I thought we were but Deputy McDonald had a different view which I will follow up on when I get back and talk to my colleagues.

Deputy Derek Nolan

In regard to the report on Vote 28, actions consequent on Title V of the Treaty of the European Union. I imagine this has to do with the CFSP. In 2011, the Department had an allocation of €418,000 but only spent €226,000. There seems to be a history of underspending under the Vote. Will Mr. Cooney explain why that happens?

Mr. David Cooney

We do not spend money when we do not have to. That would be my approach. I do not agree with this idea that one spends money just because it is in the Vote. There is a lack of predictability about this. In the past that Vote has been used to fund a particular EU mission or certain costs relating to a particular EU mission, so there is an element of leeway there. If those demands do not arise, then we do not get the call down for it and if we do not get the call down for it, I do not believe we should just go off and spend it on something else we can think of.

Deputy Derek Nolan

Is the Department's budgeting inaccurate if it is constantly over-budgeting?

Mr. David Cooney

No, because, as I said, there is an element of leeway there where one must prepare for the possibility of an EU mission and of Ireland being called on to make a particular contribution.

Deputy Derek Nolan

How is the moratorium affecting diplomatic services abroad and so on? How is the Department coping?

Mr. David Cooney

No more than elsewhere in the Civil Service, it is tough. It is affecting us and it is becoming increasingly difficult to maintain the level of services we have but we are responding in the best way we can. In terms of trying to prioritise, we have thinned out our staff profile abroad and we have cut back in terms of the numbers and the grades of people.

With the considerable thinning down of people at higher grades, approximately two thirds of our heads of mission are not drawn from the Assistant Secretary grade but from the counsellor and first secretary grade which would be principal and assistant principal level. The profile of our diplomats abroad is coming down in terms of grade structure and the numbers are also coming down.

However, we are doing our best to provide a service. Our diplomatic service is pretty much a subsistence one. It is run on a shoestring and provides a very good service in terms of the resources put in. It is much smaller than that of other countries which believe themselves to be similar in size and ambition. We have fewer missions and our missions have fewer staff.

We are just about staying afloat but in the current economic circumstances, I do not want to be recorded as whingeing about that. It is a tough situation and we have to do the best we can.

Deputy Derek Nolan

I was contacted a number of weeks ago by someone who works in the general service of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. There is a distinction between general service and diplomatic staff. Will Mr. Cooney explain that to me?

Mr. David Cooney

There is a distinction. The diplomatic stream are recruited as third secretaries with the obligation that they will serve abroad. Our diplomats are under this obligation. General service grades are not and they have no obligation and no entitlement to serve abroad but we have a number of posts which we allocate to general service grades. It is good experience and it is good for the Department but the basis on which they enter the Civil Service is entirely different. We have very good colleagues in the general service and as far as possible, I make no distinction. We try to accommodate their interests as far as possible as is consistent with the business needs of the Department. However, they are recruited on a very different basis.

Deputy Derek Nolan

What was communicated to me was that the career opportunities are very different, including the ability to serve abroad. Even though staff may be undergoing significant training and educational courses, for instances, they do not get that opportunity.

Mr. David Cooney

It is the case that the pyramid in the general service does not go as high in the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade as it does in other Departments. With the way the public service is going, and is envisaged to go, it will be very much based on mobility. All I can say as regards the diplomatic service is that mobility has a big impact on the quality of the people we have because they change jobs every four years as well as environments. They are used to change and to adjusting to different circumstances. That is the intention the Government has in terms of the public service and the Civil Service more generally, that is, that it will try to mix them up a bit and to try to give people a wider experience.

Deputy Derek Nolan

I refer to the recent decision to alter the nature of the embassy network and to rationalise some. How many of our embassies abroad do not perform consular or trade functions?

Mr. David Cooney

They would be the multilateral missions, including the missions to the UN, the OSCE, the OECD and the Council of Europe. They would not have trade or consular functions.

Deputy Derek Nolan

It is very much the exception not to have those functions.

Mr. David Cooney

For an embassy, it would be pretty unique not to have any trade or consular functions. The Holy See is a unique place.

Deputy Derek Nolan

It would fall into that bracket of not providing consular or trade functions.

Mr. David Cooney

Yes.

Deputy Derek Nolan

Given that the Department has taken over the trade Vote, is there a realignment of the embassies towards trade or a readjustment of the work programme?

Mr. David Cooney

Yes. We are doing more and more work on trade. I cannot imagine that we would establish embassies or consulates these days unless the focus was on trade. Trade is what we are about. We have other elements. Basically, our embassies do three things - they promote trade, they look after our citizens and, in the context of the EU, they look after our interests in the European Union if they are EU-based. That is their focus. Our missions in developing countries look after our development programme but trade and economic promotion is really what our embassies are about.

It is really only the multilateral embassies, the embassies to the EU and some of the larger bilateral missions which are focused on political circumstances. They keep us briefed but that is not the priority.

When talking about changes in Africa, I think my colleague said that in 20 years' time, our embassies would be focused on trade but, as he knows, we are already focusing our embassies in Africa on trade by rolling out an Africa strategy. While not affecting our development aid, which remains completely untied, we want to position Ireland to be able to benefit. We want to help their economies to grow but we want Ireland to be able to participate in and enjoy these benefits through business opportunities in and exports to Africa.

Deputy Derek Nolan

Excluding the embassies in international organisations, the only embassy the State had which did not have consular or trade functions was the Holy See.

Mr. David Cooney

It was doing neither. I think I am probably right in saying that. I cannot think of another one.

Deputy Derek Nolan

Mr. Cooney mentioned, in the context of Global Irish Economic Forum, the Irish technology leadership group. What is that?

Mr. David Cooney

That is a group of Irish business leaders working in Silicon Valley who have come together, who try to facilitate and identify opportunities for Ireland and Irish investment and who to try to encourage companies in that region to invest in Ireland. It is also involved in trying to source places for graduates from Ireland. Basically, it is a bridge between Ireland and Silicon Valley.

Deputy Derek Nolan

Do we fund it?

Mr. David Cooney

We have given it some support in terms of the graduate placements. I would have to get the figures. This is volunteerism on its part. We do not support it as a group, but we may have assisted it in some of its projects.

Deputy Derek Nolan

It says on its website that it is funded by the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade.

Mr. David Cooney

Yes, we provide funds, but it is not a question of it depending on us for its existence and operations. I will look for the figures and if I do not find them now, I will get back to the Deputy later with the precise figures.

Deputy Derek Nolan

I saw on Google yesterday that $500,000 was given to the Irish Technology Leadership Group. That seems a very high amount.

Mr. David Cooney

I will ask my colleagues to check this in the documents we have here.

Deputy Derek Nolan

I would be interested. It came to my attention when I was preparing for today and I investigated it. As far as I can see, the Irish Technology Leadership Group is a business that charges for its services. To become a member, one must pay a fee and the group organises incubation units, for which one must pay. It also runs seminars and charges for them and runs a venture capital business which is profit driven. I am surprised that such a business, which I am sure makes money, is funded to such an extent by the State.

Mr. David Cooney

I am not in a position to answer all those questions now, but with permission, I will write to the Chairman.

Chairman

That is fine.

Deputy Derek Nolan

On the embassy network, the new focus is on the BRIC countries and they are the places where there is new growth and trade. How are we represented in those areas? For example, in Russia we have an embassy in Moscow, but the whole region is undergoing huge growth. In Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan and so on, where there is mineral wealth, growth is enormous. Have we a sufficient trade and embassy presence to drive that agenda? It is one of our primary growth strategies.

Mr. David Cooney

Obviously we have embassies in all those countries and the agencies have offices. However, there is no question that if we had more resources, they are the very areas in which we would like to be pushing out.

Deputy Derek Nolan

Have we embassies in Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan?

Mr. David Cooney

Sorry, we have embassies in the BRIC countries. We have non-resident embassies to Uzbekistan and the various other ‘stans.

Deputy Derek Nolan

Are they people acting on a voluntary basis?

Mr. David Cooney

No, it would be the ambassador in Moscow in many cases. We have honorary consuls in some of those countries. We are trying to identify honorary consuls and have appointed them in some of those countries. I have a list of those here.

Deputy Derek Nolan

Have we increased funding to the embassies in the BRIC countries and have we increased our presence? Has the Department put extra people into them over the past number of years or is there any noticeable change in our diplomatic presence in these countries?

Mr. David Cooney

No, not since the economic downturn. We are in a subsistence environment and we have not been able to do that. However, we are putting more effort and emphasis into trade there.

Deputy Derek Nolan

Thank you.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

I just want to touch upon a few issues. The first concerns military exports and dual use goods and there are certain countries to which we cannot export these. Is Sudan one of these?

Mr. David Cooney

Yes. There is an arms embargo. I do not think we export goods to Sudan. I take it the Deputy is referring to the issue of the carburettor.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

That is correct.

Mr. David Cooney

The suggestion is that a drone that was used in one of the rebel areas in Sudan included a carburettor that was, apparently, manufactured in Ireland. This is an issue we take very seriously. The responsibility for granting an export licence for dual use goods remains with the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, but it acts on advice from us. We have not issued any advice that would allow anyone to export that kind of equipment to Sudan. I understand the vehicle in question may have been constructed in Iran, but again we have not issued any licences for that. The company involved claims it has not exported carburettors for that purpose, but it may be the case that a standard carburettor has been adapted. We have asked our colleagues to look into and investigate the incident. We take the issue seriously and are governed by an EU convention on the export of armaments. We are also governed by UN sanctions on this area. The problem usually arises in the context where dual use goods could be used for all manner of uses and incorporated into arms.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

This is not the first time it has been speculated that a dual use good has come from a company operating in Ireland and has ended up in Iran or Israel or even the Sudan. I know the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation takes the lead on this, but is the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade responsible for signing off that it is okay?

Mr. David Cooney

No, the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation consults us and looks for our advice. I assure the Deputy that we would not advise that they allow such goods go to those countries. We cannot stop the export of dual use goods if they are goods that are perfectly capable of being used for legitimate practices. We cannot look ahead and say we cannot agree to the export of something because it could conceivably be used for something illegitimate. However, we are extremely vigilant in terms of exports and would not approve of the export of carburettors to be used in drones or in these circumstances.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Another problem when it comes to end users is that companies can be exporting and may not realise to whom they are exporting or where the particular item may end up. What does the consultation process with the Department involve?

Mr. David Cooney

The Department comes to us. We advise the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation on these assessments. The number of applications referred to our Department in 2010 was 523 and this dropped to 304 last year. So far this year we have had 169 applications referred to us. We look at these things very carefully and take our obligations very seriously. We take into account a number of issues, such as the human rights situation and existence of tensions and armed conflicts. We do not want to see Ireland involved in making any kind of conflict situation worse.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

The company in question is Tillotson in Tralee. It sends in an application and its end user may be any company in any country. I take it that its application is then referred to an individual in the Department. How does that person verify what the carburettor might be used for and where it might be going? How does it go about signing off on it?

Mr. David Cooney

We look at the area and region to which it is going and we give the political advice. We do not give the technical advice. We are asked for our advice with regard to the situation where the goods are supposed to be going and whether there are sanctions or a ban to be considered. We do not carry out a technical examination of the goods.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

So, the check is just whether there are sanctions.

Mr. David Cooney

I am talking about the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. The technical check process is carried out by another Department

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Does the application only go to the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade to check whether there are sanctions against the country to which it is being exported?

Mr. David Cooney

It is to check whether there are sanctions. There may not be sanctions on the country, but there may be a conflict or a human rights situation in question. The difficult situation is where there are dual use goods. If the goods could be used for a military or security purpose, the issue is pretty clear cut and the question is whether it is okay to send those kinds of goods to a country and whether we are happy they will be used for genuine military or police functions or whether they could be used for repression or in military adventure. The Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade is not able to give judgments on dual use goods in terms of the technical specifications and whether they could be used for various other purposes.

Chairman

For the information of Deputy Murphy, the information on this issue is contained in the 2008 Act. It is the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation that deals with that area. There is a specific line in that Act which states that the annual report should be debated by the appropriate committee, which is the enterprise committee, or Joint Committee on Jobs, Social Protection and Education, as it is now. Is that really a matter-----

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

The Department has a role in the granting of export licences for dual-use goods, as it has a sign-off function. I am asking the question to establish the expertise in the Department and if its officials are happy with what they have, given this recent report that I saw.

Mr. David Cooney

We do our best within the scope of our responsibilities under the Act, but we cannot always be aware in advance if dual-use goods can be used for malign purposes.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Of course.

Mr. David Cooney

That may be the case in this instance. We have asked that it be investigated, so we need to see whether this was a carburettor deliberately designed for this purpose, or a carburettor that was off the shelf.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Is the Department involved at all in compiling reports under the 2008 Act?

Mr. David Cooney

I doubt it. I imagine it is the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation. We make an input into that report, but I expect that Department to compile it. That Department may well share it with us. The Deputy might know better than I do about that.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

These reports were not being published until last year when this Government came into office. We got interesting information on what dual-use goods and military goods are worth in exports. They were worth over €10 billion between 2009 and 2011. There had been a delay, but it seems Mr. Cooney is not aware of the reasons for that.

Mr. David Cooney

No I am not. I am the wrong Accounting Officer to answer that question.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

I know committee members have raised issues in respect of the development programmes. I fully support the 0.7% target and what we are doing. How many programme countries do we have?

Mr. David Cooney

We have nine.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Is there an argument to be made for decreasing the number of programme countries and increasing the type of assistance we give to a limited number of programme countries?

Mr. David Cooney

It is an argument that is made, but on reflection, we do not hold with it. We could pick one or two countries and focus all our efforts on them, but overall, we feel that we benefit and the countries themselves benefit from our wider experience. There is a danger of developing tunnel vision when operating too narrowly in too few countries in limited areas. We feel that the number we have at the moment is about right.

Mr. Brendan Rogers

That is a debate we have all the time and there is no perfect answer. The last OECD report stated that basically we are at the right level. We are on the smaller number of programme countries. Many of the other donors have 15, 20, 25 or 30 countries, although the move now is to reduce the number. This is not being done necessarily to spend more in fewer countries, but because the nature of the economic situation is changing where most of these countries are based in Africa. Development assistance is now only about 10% of the resources available to sub-Saharan African countries. It was 45% to 50% around 15 years ago. There has been economic growth, increasing employment and things are happening in a positive way. Therefore, they have much more resources at their disposal. Development co-operation is a smaller amount of that. Countries are now beginning to reorient their development programmes to determine how best to deliver development co-operation. Perhaps it has become more influential to provide more technical support, because the tax base is increasing.

Development co-operation assistance has worked with other areas, so now the whole idea of programme countries is changing. Perhaps there is no longer such a thing as a programme country. It is about influencing a group of countries. For us, a programme country means essentially having an embassy with a number of our officials there, recruiting a number of local advisers and really influencing the government and shaping how it works on its policies.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

What about those programme countries we support where some of the political and institutional reforms just are not taking hold? For example, there has been much criticism of Malawi recently.

Mr. Brendan Rogers

In 1994, we added three programme countries; Mozambique, Uganda and Ethiopia. They were risky strategies. Each of those countries would have been seen at the time as a basket case. All had been involved in huge conflict. We went into those three countries at the same time. They are still relatively poor, not totally stable although fairly stable, and most have democratic institutions to a greater or lesser extent. Malawi has only been a programme country for about three years. The President has recently passed away. There is a new President who took over a few days ago in a peaceful transition of power, according to the constitutional regulations. We were involved in some of that transfer of power over that weekend.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

How were we involved?

Mr. Brendan Rogers

We were involved in talking with other donors and with the key leaders down there. We were on the ground. We have a reputation which we have built over the years. Joyce Banda is the new President and she was inaugurated a few days ago. We know her quite well. She is a democrat. We have had a peaceful transition of power and a positive change. We were part of that because we were there, because we had influence and because we had an embassy. It is a positive story.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Can we attribute a lack of violence to the fact that we were there and others-----

Mr. Brendan Rogers

No, I think we would be taking credit------

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

I am just trying to understand our role.

Mr. Brendan Rogers

We were there with a number of other donors, but we had built relationships with Ministers. We had our team down there and over that weekend, there were many conversations on whether there would be a peaceful transfer of power from the deceased President to the Vice President, according to the country's constitution. The President and the Vice President had had some differences and had not spoken for a year, and there would have been a group of people who essentially wanted to change the constitution. We had a peaceful transfer of power, constitutionally driven, and we played a small but significant role in that with the other people on the ground. If we had not been on the ground, we would not have been able to do that, so that is a real indication of our influence on the ground.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Would our involvement in that political process have been sanctioned by the Tánaiste?

Mr. Brendan Rogers

The political process is ongoing all the time. If we are to be involved in development, we have to be talking with those who have the levers of power. We have to ensure that there is no corruption and that there is a commitment to democracy. There is a debate going on at every level in that country, from the ambassadors to the development workers to other people in the embassies and with the media. It is not as if there is a big decision, but rather that influence is being brought to bear.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Do we use our aid as a soft power and the possible withholding of it as a threat?

Mr. Brendan Rogers

We use it as soft power, but we are there. Our mere presence means that we have influence, and we have credibility. We are a small non-colonial state that has just recently established itself in Malawi. We have had missionary connections with Malawi for over 100 years. There is soft power. The stick is to withhold aid, but we do not provide budget support to Malawi so we are not up there at that table. They know our commitment is there for the long term, but if there is a real breakdown of power, we would obviously have to change our policies.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

What is our position on the situation in Uganda?

Mr. Brendan Rogers

I lived in Uganda. I was head of the mission there for a number of years. When Museveni took power in January 1986, Uganda was essentially a graveyard where 1 million people had died under Idi Amin and Milton Obote. The capital Kampala was in ruins. It is now a thriving, bustling state where people can go to work every day without fear or favour of being killed or murdered. There has been an amazing progress on economic growth, with a huge reduction in the number of people living on a dollar per day and in the HIV and AIDS pandemic, which at one point was centred on Uganda. However, we obviously have concerns about the institutionalisation of democracy, human rights and corruption. We are involved all the time in robust debates on that wide diversity of issues. There is a lot good but there are also real challenges. There is no doubt about that.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Last year, Uganda spent about €670 million on a particular type of military aircraft. Do we ever query that kind of thing?

Mr. Brendan Rogers

All the time. There is an agreement with the Ugandan Government that only a certain proportion of the budget can be spent on military expenditure, which we examine very carefully. It is around 2% and it cannot be more than that. However, there is an issue if there is off-budget expenditure and we raise that quite robustly all of the time. As recently as St. Patrick's Day, we had a five hour meeting with the President. That is not normally given to donors of our size. There are real challenges there, but we are on the ground making a difference. We are having those difficult conversations. They are risky, but overall, I would say there is more positive than negative. There are real challenges.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

The UK recently threatened to withhold aid from Uganda because of certain legislation that was going through its Parliament. Are we doing something similar?

Mr. Brendan Rogers

Absolutely. The legislation in question is private members' legislation; it is not Government legislation.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

I know.

Mr. Brendan Rogers

From our conversations with the Ugandan Government, we know it does not want to pass that legislation. However, if a sufficient number of parliamentarians support it, it is an issue for the Government, democratically speaking. It is a difficult issue. Last year, the legislation was taken out of Parliament by the Government. Essentially, it let the parliamentary time lapse. Now the legislation is back in Parliament and there is a major debate going on. That is one of the issues we have been discussing.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

None of this appears on the Irish Aid website. One might get the impression from the website that we think all is well and good. Would it be useful to raise or recognise these concerns on the website-----

Mr. Brendan Rogers

We are reshaping our website.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

-----and talk about that kind of work?

Mr. Brendan Rogers

Yes, absolutely.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

We should use our soft power in this way. It is important.

I received a reply to a parliamentary question on the same matter. Moneys from the aid programmes in those two countries go to local NGOs and government bodies. Do we track the money past that, once it goes to a government body?

Mr. Brendan Rogers

Every single penny is tracked. Some of this is a trust fund, so when we say "government bodies", what we mean is that we are using government systems for the building of schools or the purchase of schoolbooks. The money is tracked by the auditor general and by us. We carry out a whole series of audits right down through the system. Uganda is an interesting case because, at our insistence and that of other donors, outside each school a poster is put up stating how much money the school has received for desks, books and so on. That is available to the community. Since the system was established, there has been a real reduction in the amount of money being siphoned off. There are all sorts of innovative and creative ways to do this.

As I said earlier, the public financial management systems in Uganda are very much better than they were, say, ten years ago. However, it is a work in progress, and that is why we are there.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

I have one more question, which is about our contributions to international organisations. I think this was touched upon, but I did not hear the answer. It has increased by €15 million since 2009 - is that correct?

Mr. David Cooney

Our contributions to international organisations increased across the board, because as Ireland became more prosperous our GDP key went up and therefore we ended up paying a higher proportion of the budget. In 2010 there was a particularly steep rise as a result of the UN peacekeeping budget, which is unpredictable - we do not know at the beginning of the year what the total will be, because it depends on the number of UN missions. The number of such missions has expanded hugely in the last few years, unfortunately. Our contributions have shown an upward trend, but they should dip a little because, as our economy declines, we should pay a slightly lower percentage of the contributions to international organisations. However, there are always currency fluctuations. If the euro went down against the dollar, it would have a significant impact. These are almost entirely mandatory contributions.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Is there a figure for contributions in 2011 yet? I only have the figure for 2010, which was €70 million.

Mr. David Cooney

The provisional outturn for 2011 was €48 million, which was down from €52 million in 2010. Our allocation for 2012 is €45 million. I hope 2010 was an upward blip, but it really depends on the UN situation. Even as we speak there are plans for new missions. In that context, we should not assume that all military expenditure by developing countries is necessarily a bad thing. Some of these countries are situated in pretty unstable regions. Uganda, for instance, is leading the African Union mission in Somalia, where it is confronting the al-Shabaab militia, as well as the task force that is pursuing Joseph Kony. Unfortunately, one cannot get away without military expenditure in some of these countries. It is necessary.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

What is the breakdown of voluntary and non-voluntary contributions to international organisations?

Mr. David Cooney

I do not have a precise figure, but there is little voluntary contribution. We will send the figures to the committee, but its members can take it from me that the voluntary portion is very small.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

There is one point that may be of interest. The international community of audit offices is supportive of the development of national audit offices in developing countries and in those that have been through conflict. The feedback internationally is that Irish Aid is supporting that strongly, and the feedback from the audit offices that are benefitting is that they are very appreciative of the efforts being made by Irish Aid. That should be put on the record.

Chairman

Does the committee agree to note Vote 28 - Foreign Affairs, and Vote 29 - International Co-operation, and dispose of Chapter 23 - Global Irish Economic Forum, and Chapter 24, Official Development Assistance? Agreed.

I thank the witnesses for attending.

The witnesses withdrew.

The committee adjourned at 1.55 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 3 May 2012.