Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 30 May 1930

Vol. 35 No. 3

In Committee on Finance. - Vote No. 18—Secret Service.

Mr. Blythe

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £6,500 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thoicfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1931, chun Seirbhísí Sicreideacha.

That a sum not exceeding £6,500 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1931, for Secret Services.

In previous years I gave the amounts spent each year under this head of Secret Service. In 1922-23 the amount of money spent was £118,762; 1923-24, £39,236; 1924-25, £19,665; 1925-26, £8,995; 1926-27, £2,970; 1927-28, £6,649; 1928-29, £5,570 and last year the amount spent was approximately £3,000.

Proinnsias O Fathaigh

Níl mórán airgid á caitheamh faoi'n Vóta so agus admhuighim go bhfuil gá le Vóta mar é. Ach is dó linn go bhfuil obair polaitíochta ar siúl faoi'n Vóta agus nach bhfuil cothrom na Féinne ó thabhairt do chuid de na daoine.

Cúpla bliain o shoin, do mhol roinnt Teachtaí nár cheart baint a bheith le hobair mar seo ag aon duine a bhí taoibheach leis an gcoga a bhí eadrainn féin. Ní ceart cúram na hcibre seo do chur ar dacine atá nimhneach le haon dream san tír. Bheadh a lán daoine níos sásta ná mar tá siad da ndéanfí sin.

Mr. MacEntee

We on this side of the House are opposed to this Vote, because we are not satisfied that the money is expended on services to the whole people of the State. We are not satisfied that the political ends of a certain Party are not served solely by the expenditure of this money. We are not certain that the money is used to procure information which is essential to the defence of the State against the possibility of external aggression. We feel that the main portion of this money is spent for the loathsome purpose of corrupting our own people and destroying that trust amongst our own citizens upon which alone the safety and security of the State can be rightly based. Last year, in defending this Estimate to the House, the Minister denied that any part of it had been used for the purpose of suborning by agents provocateurs. But in that case the Minister must think that the public memory is very short, because we must remember that in the course of a public inquiry one witness afterwards admitted to be an agent of this State, and in receipt of Government pay, had to acknowledge in cross-examination that he had suggested raids upon certain Government and other offices, and had incited others to take part in them, and was himself the head and front of a conspiracy of lawlessness and disorder. I know that the exigencies of modern government, of all governments in all times have compelled them to buy information from people who had the trust and confidence of others. I would like to be sure that so far as this Vote is concerned the main and chief purpose of it would be the purchase— since it must be done—of information rather from those who are in the service of other governments, external to this State, than from citizens and members of our own community. We do not think, as a matter of fact, that it is necessary to spend any part of this money in bribing our own citizens. If the Government's declaration as to its own excellence, of the benefits and advantages derived by the people over whom it rules, be true, surely the loyalty of the citizens to the State would be such that they would of their own accord communicate to the State and to those who are charged with the duty of preserving law and order in the country, any knowledge they might have, anything which would be likely to subvert the Government or to interrupt the peaceful advancement of this State towards the prosperity which the Government dangles before us as an inducement to continue our support of them.

Mr. G. O'Sullivan

Hear, hear.

Mr. MacEntee

I notice that Deputy O'Sullivan is prepared to accept that proposition. He is prepared to agree with me that this Vote is unnecessary. I hope he will have the moral courage to back up his words by acts and that he will follow Fianna Fáil Deputies into the Division Lobby against the Minister on this Vote.

Mr. O'Sullivan

What I did applaud in the Deputy's remarks was his public statement in this House that it is the duty of every citizen in the State to support the continuance of the Government's policy for the preservation of peace and order and, I think he said, their efforts to put down lawlessness and disorder.

Mr. MacEntee

I did not say that. That is just typical of Deputy O'Sullivan. I did not say it was their duty, but I said that if the assertions—

Mr. O'Sullivan

Is it their duty?

Mr. MacEntee

I said that if the assertions and declarations of the Government were true, then without doubt the loyalty of the people would be such that they would communicate to the Government anything that might tend to be subversive of law and order. The unfortunate thing about it is that the assertions of the Government are not true; that the people have not that respect for them which, in ordinary circumstances and under a different Government, would prevail; that the people do not regard this Government as their friend; that they think of it as something that has to be endured more or less like purgatory, until a time comes when they will be released from their sufferings.

Mr. O'Sullivan

Until they get hell.

Mr. MacEntee

They will not get that until Deputy Gearoid O'Sullivan assumes the position to which, in his mind, he is entitled—that of military dictator of this State. They will then get hell in earnest; they will then know what it means and it will not be a mere metaphorical jackboot like the jackboot of the Minister for Finance.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I would now like to hear Deputy MacEntee upon the Estimate.

Mr. MacEntee

If I have diverged a little, I am not responsible. If irrelevant interruptions are made ——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy should not listen to them.

Mr. MacEntee

I agree, and I hope that the people of the country will take to heart the admonition of the Leas-Cheann Comhairle, and will not listen to what Deputy O'Sullivan has to say on public matters.

Mr. O'Sullivan

Fortunately, they do.

Mr. MacEntee

Unfortunately, they do. The real point in connection with this Vote is that the expenditure is unnecessary. If this Government had the trust and confidence of the majority of the people it would not, so far as our own people are concerned, be necessary to spend this money. So far as external powers are concerned I do not think it is necessary to expend it either. I do not think in the Government's view that it should be necessary to expend it. According to the Minister for Industry and Commerce and the Minister for Finance, we are common associates within the great Commonwealth of Nations, bound to stand by each other, defend each other and uphold each other against all aggression; bound in loyalty to the one Crown and the one Throne, and surely the Minister for Finance is not going to tell the House that of this £10,000 which he asks he requires a large sum in order that he may corrupt the loyal subjects of that Crown and of that Throne to which he has given his first allegiance. I do not believe the Minister has that in mind at all. It is precisely because I do not feel this money is going to be spent in endeavouring to secure that forewarning which is forearming against attack from an external source that I have come to the conclusion that it is to be used, as I have said, to corrupt our own people, our citizens generally. For that reason it is an unworthy object, one to which public money should not be devoted. and I hope, therefore, that the Dáil will reject the Vote.

Earnán de Blaghd

Ní gá mórán do rá ar an gecist seo. Tá an t-airgead so uilig a chaitheamh chun an Stát do chosaint agus chun síochan do bhunú san tír. Is gá eolas a bheith ag an Rialtas ar a bhfuil ar siúl ag daoine áirithe atá ag súil le coga do dhéanamh ar an Stát. Ní caithtear mórán airgid ar an dóigh se o agus tá an méid níos lúgha i mbliadna ná a bhí sé anuiridh. B'fhéidir go níocfaí níos lúgha feasta. Muna gcaithfí airgeard mar seo dhéanfaí a lán díobhála go mba dheacair a léigheas. Dá gcuirfí bac leis an Vóta so dhéanfaí a lán díobhála don tír. Is féidir linn ar an dóigh seo cose do chur fá láthair ar obair a dhéanfadh díobháil dos na daoine agus do mhaoin na ndaoine.

Question put.

The Committee divided: Tá, 60; Níl, 41.

Tá.

• Aird, William P.
• Alton, Ernest Henry.
• Beckett, James Walter.
• Bennett, George Cecil.
• Blythe, Ernest.
• Bourke, Séamus A.
• Brennan, Michael.
• Brodrick, Seán.
• Byrne, John Joseph.
• Carey, Edmund.
• Collins-O'Driscoll, Mrs. Margt.
• Conlon, Martin.
• Crowley, James.
• Daly, John.
• Davis, Michael.
• De Loughrey, Peter.
• Doherty, Eugene.
• Dolan, James N.
• Doyle, Peadar Seán.
• Duggan, Edmund John.
• Dwyer, James.
• Egan, Barry M.
• Esmonde, Osmond Thos. Grattan.
• Fitzgerald, Desmond.
• Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
• Gorey, Denis J.
• Haslett, Alexander.
• Hassett, John J.
• Heffernan, Michael R.
• Hennessy, Michael Joseph.
• Hennessy, Thomas.
• Hennigan, John.
• Henry, Mark.
• Holohan, Richard.
• Kelly, Patrick Michael
• Keogh, Myles.
• Law, Hugh Alexander.
• Lynch, Finian.
• Mathews, Arthur Patrick.
• MacEóin, Seán.
• McGilligan, Patrick.
• Mongan, Joseph W.
• Nally, Martin Michael.
• Nolan, John Thomas.
• O'Connell, Richard.
• O'Donovan, Timothy Joseph
• O'Mahony, Dermot Gun.
• O'Reilly, John J.
• O'Sullivan, Gearóid.
• O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
• Reynolds, Patrick.
• Rice, Vincent.
• Roddy, Martin.
• Sheehy, Timothy (West Cork).
• Thrift, William Edward.
• Tierney, Michael.
• White, John.
• White, Vincent Joseph.
• Wolfe, George.
• Wolfe, Jasper Travers.

Níl.

• Allen, Denis.
• Blaney, Neal.
• Boland, Patrick.
• Bourke, Daniel.
• Brady, Seán.
• Buckley, Daniel.
• Carney, Frank.
• Carty, Frank.
• Clancy, Patrick.
• Clery, Michael.
• Colbert, James.
• Cooney, Eamon.
• Corkery, Dan.
• Derrig, Thomas.
• Doyle, Edward.
• Everett, James.
• Fahy, Frank.
• Fogarty, Andrew.
• Gorry, Patrick J.
• Goulding, John.
• Hayes, Seán.
• Houlihan, Patrick.
• Jordan, Stephen.
• Kent, William R.
• Killilea, Mark.
• Kilroy, Michael.
• Lemass, Seán F.
• Little, Patrick John.
• Maguire, Ben.
• McEllistrim, Thomas.
• MacEntee, Seán.
• Mullins, Thomas.
• Murphy, Timothy Joseph
• O'Connell, Thomas J.
• O'Reilly, Thomas.
• Powell, Thomas P.
• Ruttledge, Patrick J
• Ryan, James.
• Sexton, Martin.
• Sheehy, Timothy (Tipp.).
• Ward, Francis C.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Duggan and P. Doyle: Nil: Deputies Allen and Killilea.

Vote declared carried.

The Dáil adjourned at 2 p.m. until Wednesday, 4th June, at 3 p.m.