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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 15 May 1934

Vol. 52 No. 7

Financial Resolutions. - In Committee on Finance. Resolution No. 24—General.

Debate resumed on Resolution No. 24:—
That it is expedient to amend the law relating to Customs and Inland Revenue (including Excise) and to make further provision in connection with finance.

In the very lengthy statement made by the Minister for Finance on Wednesday last in connection with the Budget, there was one notable omission. He did not disclose to the House whether there was an increase or a reduction in taxation. It might be inferred from quite a number of newspaper articles, at least in the case of two daily newspapers in Dublin, that there had been a reduction in taxation. In February last, through the Emergency Imposition of Duties Act, or some other Act of that kind, there was an imposition of 4/8 a cwt. on sugar. That imposition remains in this year's Budget; it was not in last year's Budget. Speaking on the com parison of the sugar tax and the tea tax two years ago, the Minister indicated the difference in amount between the two was estimated by him at £18,000. He calculated that the income in respect of the ½d. on sugar would amount to £400,000. Added to that, there is £24,000 in respect of income tax this year—the removal of one-sixth which up to this has been allowed on the valuation of houses estimated under, I think, Schedule A. Under tobacco this year there is an impost of £35,000 remaining on the 3½d. allowed to Irish manufacturers. The Minister anticipates an increased yield of £150,000 from the alteration of the customs duties, making in all a sum of £609,000. The remission of outdoor sports tax, the reduction in the cost of tea, and the reduction of 6d. in the £ on income tax lead to a total reduction of £560,000, leaving a net imposition in this year's Budget of 49,000 as compared with last year's. Making allowances for receipts in respect of the period from February to the 31st March the actual increase since this time last year amounts to £100,000.

There are other figures of some importance which the Minister mentioned in the course of his speech. The figure for overestimation amounts to almost £1,200,000. It is a very large figure when we take into account the Minister's own statement. In the course of his speech he said that something like £600,000 had not been expended. What he said was:—

"Revenue has surpassed indeed even the most optimistic expectations ... while supply expenditure, carefully scrutinised and controlled, has been less than the Estimate by over £600,000."

Let us take a liberal amount and make provision for double that sum in finding what amount of money is required to meet the expenditure for the current year. The Minister said that would be 4 per cent. of the supply services but I find that included in that sum of 4 per cent. there are very considerable items. The Minister took the sum, if I mistake not, of £28,000,000. The total estimated expenditure this year is £31,119,107 on which he made a deduction of £75,000 saving on unemployment estimates, and windows' and orphans' pensions. Now deducting local loans amounting to £4,200,000, property losses, £110,750, industrial alcohol, £102,000, advances to Guarantee Fund, £300,000 and £470,000, which I presume is to be expended in relief of rates, and the two-thirds of the provision for export bounties and subsidies, £1,500,000, supplementary agricultural grants, £900,989, we get a total of £7,583,739. We are left with a sum which the Minister might speculate on as £22,460,368. And on that sum you would require over 5 per cent., possibly 5.7, to get the reduction necessary. The second figure—the allowance of £1,500,000 to be borrowed against the expenditure of £2,250,000 on bounties and subsidies, is apparently a figure which has been treated as an asset. But it is borrowed in respect of a sum of money which is in dispute. So far we have not had any benefite statement from the Ministry that these land annuities, and other sums, are not in dispute. We have always heard that they are subject to a settlement still, or yet to be made. We have heard no departure from the statement that the Government were prepared to accept an outside arbitrator; and so far as the sum is concerned, it is one in regard to which there is no doubt at all about it there is a dispute. Have they entered into possession of these sums? Are they satisfied that there never will be any settlement of the dispute, and, therefore, that these sums are under their control? And the next question which arises—and it is rather important having regard to the seizures and arrests through the entire country—is: is this really an asset and can it be counted upon as what one might call a good debt, and have we not to take into account the fact that some thousands of sheriff's orders are circulating in regard to this sum throughout the country at the present moment?

Having regard to the fact that there have been cattle seizures and baton charges this year in connection with this matter one is inclined to doubt whether it is of such a character as that which the Minister put forward. These are the two items—£1,500,000 and £300,000 in connection with the Guarantee Fund and these are also to be borrowed. So we have this position that the debt which the Minister calculated in respect of the unpaid instalments does not exceed £500,000, and the Estimate—I think it is a large Estimate— that the whole of the May and June land annuity instalments of last year were not paid, and we have a debt which has been funded of approximately £2,500,000 against which we are going to borrow £1,800,000 this year. That does not appear in the first place to justify the circumstances of the case, and in the second place it is open to doubt whether if circumstances and conditions should remain as they are the Minister or the Land Commission will be able to collect each year the instalments and interest in respect of the funded annuities in the case.

We come now to what the Minister calls the difference between the public debt as it was two years ago and as it is to-day. He calculates that in respect of that we are better off to the extent of £5,460,000. The first item that attracts one's attention is the item of £1,511,000 for which the Road Fund is responsible and respect to which the Minister takes credit. Two years ago we were informed that the Minister proposed to borrow £1,000,000 on the security of the Road Fund in order to give more employment. That money has been advanced out of that fund and either to the fund or to the State in respect of it he is responsible for a sum approximafely of £900,000.

The Minister takes this line in respect of it: we have borrowed that, we have spent that, but we do not owe it; the Road Fund owes it. Whatever satisfaction the Minister may be able to take to his conscience in respect to that, unless he is in a position to prove that that sum of money was required to put the roads into order if they were not in order to the extent of the sum subscribed to the Road Fund, and that in consequence the Road Fund could be saddled with a liability in respect of that sum, its inclusion does not appear to me to be justified as an asset. One could just as easily borrow on the customs or the excise duties of the future as upon the Road Fund. In any case it is owed. The Minister may say that the Road Fund owes it, but somebody has responsibility for the Road Fund and this does not appear to me to be a justifiable item for inclusion amongst a number of assets.

Assuming for the moment that we take that out—that we leave that £4,500,000—the Minister took into Revenue two years ago a sum which he informed the Dáil amounted to £4,677,000. Later in his speech on the same occasion he stated that he did not get the whole of that; that not much more than half of the land annuities, which were slightly under £3,000,000, had been paid, and that in consequence he required to deduct from this £4,677,000 approximately £1,500,000. That sum at any rate has to be added to the £900,000, so that you get a total of about £4,000,000. Last year, if we are to accept his figures as correct, he had a balance of income over expenditure of £1,300,000. The sum total of these three items very closely approximates to £5,460,000. But, going back to his earlier statement in connection with what is called the public debt— what he has this year made to be a sort of comparison between what he received and the debt that he had to shoulder—and the position as it is now, it will be within the recollection of the Dáil that at that time he stated that we had a liability in respect of £92,000,000 to Great Britain which had been practically placed upon the State by the preceding Government. But in the following year he took credit for wiping out that debt, and this year it was scarcely mentioned at all. Let us see exactly how the matter stands. If the Minister, or the Government, has escaped liability in respect of that sum of £92,000,000—a capital liability—it is beyond question that somebody, or some collection of individuals in this country, has had collected from them, from their produce or their goods, an average of £4,000,000 a year over the last 21 months. The published returns of our customers beyond the sea show that they have received £7,000,000 in 21 months. That is the sum that has been levied on goods that went into that country from this country.

Now let us examine what the price of money is to-day. The Minister borrowed a loan a short time ago. It was offered at 98 at 3½ per cent. In order to get the value of the £4,000,000 you require to multiply it by 28. Formerly we had a 5 per cent. loan. Twenty times the annual sum would practically give you the value of that loan. In this case, owing to the fact that money is cheaper now, you have got to multiply the £4,000,000 a year by 28, so we find that while the Minister and the Government have escaped liability in respect of the £92,000,000 our agricultural industry and the goods that we export which are subject to tariffs on the other side are being saddled with the sum of £112,000,000. That does not appear on the face of it to be good business, but it is a fact. When we talk about a conflict, about the economic war, the struggle for our national independence, and the struggle for self-sufficiency or something of that sort, let us remember that we are starting off with a present-day value of a debt amounting to £112,000,000. So far as the other items are concerned, when one considers the figure at which that particular debt stands to-day as compared with two years ago one can make the Minister a present of the £5,000,000 even if the other figures to which I have referred have any weakness in them, a thing which I do not admit at all.

I do not propose to make any further observations on that particular matter. The Minister, in the course of his statement, referred to the publication of some observations during the course of the collection of his National Loan last year: that somebody in the Opposition whom he did not mention made a statement to the effect that this £6,000,000 was going to be used for the purpose of buying an election result for the Party opposite or, to use, I think, his own term, for Mr. de Valera. I have looked up the newspapers of that particular period, and I find that the most remarkable incident that occurred at that time was a letter that was sent from the President of the Executive Council to the British Government. In one newspaper we find this in leaded type:

"Britain and the issue of a Republic."

In another newspaper we find this:

"Great Britain and the Free State; Mr. de Valera's question on secession: Dominions Secretary's reply: no statement of attitude to a Republic."

and so on. Was it good business to raise such a highly controversial—to say the least of it—political question at that particular moment: at a time when the Minister was issuing a prospectus for the borrowing of £6,000,000? These statements were being published in the Press day after day, and I ask the House to take note of the date. I find that the letter was addressed from

"Department of External Affairs, Irish Free State, 29th November, 1933. Despatch No. 142,"

and that it winds up:

"I have the honour to be, sir, your most obedient servant, Eamon de Valera, Minister for External Affairs."

It was addressed to

"The Right Honourable the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs. Dowing Street, London, S.W.1."

That is the sort of letter that would injure any National Loan. Whether the Minister likes it or not, I want to say that that is the sort of statement which would have a much worse effect upon the minds of citizens and on the prospects of the National Loan than any statement that might be made by a member of the Opposition, supposing that such a statement were made. I do not remember any such statement being made: that the money was going to be used for political purposes. I find that the Minister addressed the Chamber of Commerce at that time. The Irish Independent in a leading article on the day afterwards, the 5th December, stated:—

"Concluding his address the Minister said it was the earnest desire of the Government that the relations between the peoples of this country and Great Britain should be amicable and cordial, and he believed that it was not beyond the capacity of the two peoples to arrive at an understanding which would be honourable and lasting."

These were the Minister's pious beliefs, but I would remind him of the old saying that "Faith without good works is dead."

So much for the National Loan. Let us examine now some figures which were given by the Minister in the course of those compilations of his in connection with the situation in 1932 and two years afterwards. We find, on column 1490 of the Official Debates, 11th May, 1932, that, in assessing the assets of the State at that time, the Minister puts down the Local Loans Fund at a value of £2,536,237, and on pages 21 and 22 of his statement, in speaking of the Local Loans Fund, he said:

"That Fund, having been virtually dormant for a number of years, began to function again in 1926. When we came into office six years later it amounted to £2,834,134."

The Minister, probably, will be able to correct the difference between those two figures—somewhere in the neighbourhood of between £200,000 and £300,000. We observed also that the Minister, in assessing the capital liabilities, brought down the Telegraph Acts, Public Offices Site Act and the Railway Act and Marine Works Act— a total of something between £100,000 and £200,000. There were other items also but I do not see these other items. Perhaps they, too, have been won in this economic war.

In the course of the Minister's statement in respect of the great increase in revenue this year, he starts, very inauspiciously, with one item—death duties. Apparently, to oblige him, more people died, and possibly wealthier people died, or perhaps it was a little of both; but in any case we managed to get £17,000 better than the Estimate. This time last year, property, generally speaking, was not as valuable as it is this year. There has been an improvement in value of most shares in the intervening period. Perhaps the Minister's advisers did not anticipate that. However, it is a small item.

The next item is stamp duties— £65,000. Now, as property and shares generally have increased in value, one might expect a corresponding expansion here, which, I suppose, the pessimistic minds of the Minister or his advisers did not expect last year. Income tax and surtax is up £12,000 on last year. Taking into account the full effect of the 1/6 it might be expected that it would amount to £300,000 or £400,000 in the revenue, but only £140,000 was estimated for and the Minister has beaten that by £12,000. Corporation profits tax at £11,000 has much the same character as most of the other items. It is an estimate, and it will be found as a rule that those who advise the Minister always advise on the safe side.

The next item is Excess Profits Tax at £93,000. That sum has no reference to any expansion in business that has occurred during the last year. It has reference to money that was carned during the last 20 years. Customs brought in almost £1,500,000 and while, last year, the Minister was in a position to attribute most of the advantages of the tariffs to his colleague, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, this year he has the lion's share of whatever advantage was in it. It may be that the people, when the tariffs were put on first and Customs increased, held off purchasing and that purchasing last year was almost a necessity. Let us hope that there has been at least as big an improvement in the industrial activities of the State as there has been in the Customs, but that steep rise in Customs receipts—that lean Estimate of the Minister, on the one hand, and the big sum that has come in—larger, I think, by about £2,000,000 than four years ago—does not indicate the industrial activity to which the Minister referred last year.

The last item is Excise. Last year the Minister congratulated himself upon some items of increase under that heading. This year he goes a step further, but the fact is that the receipts from Excise this year are lower than they have been in this State—£5,443,000 as against £5,450,000 or £7,460,000, I think, last year. I warned the Minister last year that that particular item of receipt had shown, and was continuing to show, a marked contraction and that it was a question for consideration whether some reconsideration of the impositions of duties upon those items, which were responsible for that enormous reduction, should not be made. Now, in that question of Excise, there is another feature. One firm is responsible, I should say, for the larger proportion of that particular receipt, and as their trade, which is, I think, two-thirds export, expands outside, they require a larger stock upon which duty is paid. As the duty on beer has been reduced in England for some time and as the exports of that particular firm have increased something over 5 per cent.— occasionally going up to 10 per cent., but on the level, I should say, about 5 or 6 per cent.—their stocks must increase and a larger sum must come in in respect of duty. The Minister cannot point to any great expansion of business in connection with those items. The Minister went on to say that, in connection with the tea duty, he had received £467,000—£77,000, he said, in excess of the Estimate and £126,000 more than last year. I had the curiosity to look up last year's receipts in respect of the tea duty, and I find they amount to £413,000 odd. The Minister had expected, I think, to get £413,000 and I think he must have displaced the figures slightly and have read his £413,000 for £341,000 if he meant to make a difference between the figures of this year and last year of £126,000.

That the figures generally are satisfactory in respect of receipts I am prepared to admit very freely indeed. If the Estimates of receipts and expenditure this year will stand close examination, I find no excuse for locking up a surplus of £1,300,000—a surplus of receipts over expenditure of last year. Not since the State was established has there been such heavy taxation as there has been during those last two years. The receipts are colossal, the scale of taxation is high, and the impositions are heavy. Why should there be kept in the Exchequer £1,300,000 collected last year and admitted by the Minister to be surplus revenue and from which there is no remission of taxation and no advantage given for this year? In normal countries such a tying up of capital would be serious. Here, I am glad to say that from the top to the bottom of the Ministry some appreciation of the sound financial condition of this country has come to them during the past two years. It is a welcome sign. During the general election of 1932 people were warned of the danger of our impending bankruptcy, but the Ministers are now satisfied, having increased taxation during two years, that the country is sound, but there can be little excuse, from the point of view of strict or sound finance, for taxing people beyond the requirements of the State.

If, as I have said, we are to take the Minister's figures in respect of last year's receipts and expenditure and his estimated receipts and expenditure this year as being true figures, according to his own account there does not appear to be a justification for withholding from the people of the State the sum of £1,300,000. There is all the more reason for reconsideration in connection with that matter when we remember that no Minister has denied that the agricultural population and the agricultural industry in this country are in a bad way; that prices are bad, that profits are low, and that it is inconceivable that, politically or otherwise, an agitation could be started or a conspiracy engendered throughout the country against the payment of rates or annuities, unless people found themselves in a difficult position and had to draw on reserves or, perhaps, had not got them at all.

The situation becomes almost tragic. I have a letter here from a solicitor in Mayo to the effect that two people have been served with notices by the sheriff or by the registrar, or whoever he is, for two sums of £1 6s. 8d. and £1 10s. 3d., with 3/6 costs in both cases. Those are very small farmers, and it is one Mayo case. How many other cases are there that never come to light? Unquestionably, if agricultural produce is subject to such tariffs as it is now bearing, it is inevitable that you will have cases of privation, cases of difficulty and cases of financial stress throughout the country and if that be-the case with regard to agriculture, let us then look at the industrial side, the business section in the towns and cities. The policy of the Ministry, if we are to accept their own statements, is to help industrial projects, to expand industry, to give people hope in the present and in the future. Can they have hope in the present and in the future when they find the scale of taxation at its peak point in this year? Is it any inducement to industrialists or to manufacturers when every country in the world is endeavouring to limit its expenditure, to decrease its taxation, to give an opportunity to bona fide industry to get upon its feet? Is that the time when taxation should be at its peak point and not alone that, but, having been at its peak point, that there should be something kept in reserve in respect of the short period of two years?

Those are considerations which the Minister would be well advised to ponder and to see whether the best interests of this country would not be better served by reducing the burden of taxation, by giving hope to the people so that they can do their work, and by getting down to that statement, made by the Minister for Finance, that it was the wish of his Ministry that there should be amicable and cordial relations as between themselves and the British Government. Let us remember that if we have escaped a debt of £92,000,000, we have handed over to the shoulders of people unequal to it a liability for £112,000,000. In my opinion, and in the opinion of any man who has any knowledge of business or finance, it is not good business.

If the Minister does not mind my saying so, I think that his statement could have been made much clearer if it had been confined to ten or 12 pages instead of the 47 pages to which he was good enough to treat the House. Most of the stuff is irrelevant political propaganda. We had no real analysis of the Budget situation and it has remained for the Leader of the Opposition to give us that analysis now. What the country really feels about this, as it has felt about other Budgets presented by the Minister, is, I think, the extraordinary amount that is being got out of the country by taxation. I am not going to repeat—it is useless to do it as the House is very familiar with them—the various promises of the Minister in that respect, but whether the Budget is balanced or not, whether the Minister is justified in borrowing for the items in respect of which he proceeds to borrow or not, the fact remains that you have here a Budget which for this country is altogether too high, and what the country and those who have an interest, not merely in the present but in the future, have to take into account is the height of taxation, the amount of money which the Minister and the Government propose to raise from the people.

At any period, an increase of taxation or heavy taxation, judging, I will admit, by the ordinary standards that have generally prevailed in countries up to the present, is something that has to be justified and not taken simply as a matter of course, but the Government seem to have reconciled themselves to the position. They are even preparing to boast of the achievement, a consideration to which I shall return, namely, that taxation is a great stimulus for trade and industry. If they intend having such a complete revolution as that in their financial policy, I think it should not be casually stated by one Minister and another through the country but should be openly and clearly put forward as the policy of the Government. At any time, I suggest, a heavy burden of taxation of this kind is a very serious matter for the country and however the people have been able to meet that taxation up to the present, remember the position in which we are. Whatever may be the effect of the industrial policy of the Government, everybody must acknowledge that it will take quite a number of years before it can come into full operation and for a long time to come, whether the Government likes it or not, the agricultural community must be the most important portion of the productive activity of this country.

That being so, it ought to be obvious that the prosperity of our industries, the prosperity of our towns and, therefore, the continued possibility over a number of years—not over one or two years—of the people being able to bear this heavy taxation will depend on whether the agricultural community is or is not prosperous. It ought to be perfectly clear, ought almost to be axiomatic, that irrespective of whether or not taxes can be paid at the present moment, the capacity of the people to bear taxation in the next four or five years will depend on whether or not the agricultural community is prosperous.

When the Minister glibly refers to the prosperity of the country, as revealed by his power to impose heavy taxation, surely he must leave out of account altogether the condition in which the principal producing factor in this country finds itself at the present moment. I think it must appear exceedingly callous to the ordinary members of the farming community down the country—and I have heard them speak on the matter—when they find Minister after Minister getting up in this House and speaking of the unexampled prosperity of the country, or even referring to the prosperity of the country at all, when they know perfectly well that for those on whose financial soundness in the last resort the financial soundness of the nation must depend there is no such prosperity; that even if by means of heavy taxation the Minister can balance his Budget there are very few farmers in the country who can do the same; that, as a result of the financial policy and the general policy of the Government, the balancing of the Budget is confined to the Government, and to the State, and does not apply to the ordinary unfortunate agricultural people through the country nor to most of the business people in the towns. Whatever boasting the Minister may do about balancing his Budget that can hardly find an echo in the breast of the unfortunate farmer of the country, who finds it practically impossible—actually impossible if he were to confine himself to his revenue—to make ends meet. As we know, in many cases he has to draw on the capital, sometimes exceedingly small, which in past years he has been able to put aside. If they are anxious, as the great bulk of them are, to meet even the extravagant demands of a Government like this, what are they driven to do through the country? I know what they are doing in my own native county, and I saw similar evidence given by rate collectors in the county of Kilkenny the other day; in order to save the £1 by the early payment of rates they are going to the shopkeepers and asking them to lend them the money to pay the rates. I know that is the way a great deal of the obligations are met by the farming community at the present time.

What I would ask the House and the country to consider is this: not whether or not the Minister has again increased taxation, though that in itself is an important point, but whether the taxation as it stands—and apparently it is the intention of the Government not to allow it sink below its present point—will not prove ruinous to the country. One of the difficulties which the public has so far as increased taxation is concerned is this: there was a time, gradually passing away perhaps under all administrations, when in the month of May the ordinary citizen was capable of knowing what the taxes were likely to be in the following 12 months. That time has passed. The Budget statement is not now one of the principal avenues or one of the principal methods by which the Minister for Finance conveys to the people what taxes he intends to impose. Right through the year, any month, any week, or any day, new taxes may be put on the people. That is what has occurred, especially in the last two years. I say that with the operation of tariffs there was already a tendency in that direction, but everybody who is a member of this House knows perfectly well that certainly not a month, and very often not a week, passes in which new taxes are not put on the people. It is, therefore, an extremely difficult thing to make out whether or not in the actual Budget statement there is justification for the statement that there is reduced taxation. That has been clearly instanced by Deputy Cosgrave in the speech he has just made. The main consideration is the height at which taxation is being kept at a time when it is acknowledged—as occasionally they are driven to acknowledge—by the Government and by the Ministers themselves that the main industry of the country is severely hit. It must be remembered that the taxpaying capacity of this country will ultimately depend, and must for a number of years depend, on the solvency of that industry. And yet this is the time when taxes are being piled on, or, if not piled on, are being kept at the present high level. That is an extremely serious situation for the country to face.

Any Government, if it estimated wrongly and if it got the consent of the Dáil for years past, could have imposed taxes that would have brought in more than was necessary for the expenses of running the country. The Minister for Finance, if he was so inclined, might have grossly under-estimated the yield of those taxes, but I think I can claim for the Government which preceded the present one that they were exceedingly slow in imposing taxes. They were severely criticised by the Minister and his colleagues for the taxes that they did impose, but I think in that respect, whether you like or not, conservatism was their outstanding characteristic. It was with the greatest reluctance that they imposed taxation. What do we find at present? We find the opposite. We find an extreme willingness to impose taxation; we find statements by some Ministers that it is a good thing, and causes money to circulate. Well, of course, that is an immediate effect. There will be a slight reaction —apparently for the moment a good reaction—as a result of that circulation of money, but everybody knows that that is deliberately mortgaging the future to the present immediate gain.

As I say, the policy they are adopting is apparently deliberately adopting the idea that taxation is one of the best stimulants for trade. I often spoke of this Government as being a topsy-turvy Government. This is one of the instances, I think, in which its topsy-turvy policy gets a good illustration. They have had two stimuli for trade and industry in this country up to the present, one being the economic war and the second being high taxation. That is their principal contribution in that respect. Previous Governments hesitated to impose unnecessary taxation. They cut down —you can compare the present expenditure with their expenditure— taxation even to an unpopular extent; but now a deliberately opposite policy is being pursued.

The previous Government knew that the money would be forthcoming, because the wealth of the nation had been carefully husbanded. Now it is being spent in a couple of years in a spendthrift fashion and it is because the Government, in pursuit of an immediate gain, deliberately shuts its eyes to these inevitable consequences of its policy that I ask the House and the country to look carefully to the implications of this Budget about which there was such a great blowing of trumpets. What you are doing is adding to or, at best, stabilising this heavy burden of taxation not at a time, whatever Ministers may say, of increasing prosperity, but the very opposite, a time when the principal industry of the country, what must remain the principal industry of the country, is being brought, whatever may be said about other industries, to the verge of bankruptcy. Let Ministers consult even the ordinary members of their own organisation, their farming supporters in the country, as to whether the farmers in the country are convinced or not that they are living in a period of expanding prosperity, whether they are in the satisfactory position of the Minister of being able to balance their budgets.

What is happening is that by this two-fold policy of theirs—by the economic war and its results and by this reckless piling on of taxation— they are rendering a position, that was a perfectly safe financial position when they got it, unsound. They are trying the very best, and I hope they will not succeed, to make that position unsound. Reference has been made again and again to the extraordinary increase in taxation that has taken place under the present Minister. In recent interchanges of correspondence between the President and a Deputy of this House the President took the opportunity to point out the benefits that he alleged the farming community had got from this Government, and he made, as usual, some mathematical calculations.

Again, I can only appeal to the experience of anybody who knows the farming community in any county in Ireland. Furthermore, I should like the Minister to bear this in mind that several additional taxes have been imposed, indirect taxes particularly. These indirect taxes are paid by every member of the community and consequently a large portion of them must be paid by the farming community. That is one of the benefits that the present Government have given to the farming community about which there is no talk at all—namely, that they have imposed, in indirect taxation, several millions. Not merely are the farmers paying for the policy of the Government, by means of the tariffs exacted by Great Britain, but they are paying through the increased indirect taxation in the way of tariffs and otherwise that have been imposed by the Minister. It is quite true that the ordinary individual—and I think it is truer of the farming community than most other classes of the community—has not the same reluctance to pay indirect taxes that he has to pay so much money directly out of his pocket in the way of direct taxation and therefore, psychologically, indirect taxation is to the advantage of the Minister. None the less the individual is paying. None the less his revenue is being cut down and all these millions of indirect taxation that have been added by the Minister, are hitting every portion of the consuming community. Not merely have we the under-estimation of the Minister—that was serious enough as portion of the resulting overtaxation that has to be met by the farming community—but, in addition, there is the whole amount of indirect taxation which the Government has imposed in the last couple of years and which is to be met by everybody rich or poor, the consumer, in the country or in the town.

There is a further increase in their expenses that, in so far as these tariffs have been successful from a protective point of view, I believe that in many cases they have sent up the prices of articles manufactured in this country. All that has to be borne by the unfortunate taxpayer of this country. I am not referring to certain burdens which the taxpayer has to bear and which are not mentioned in the Budget account—what the consumer has to pay for instance, in connection with the butter scheme. The consumer has to meet that also, but what I want to deal with for the moment is this question of under-estimation. It amounted to £1,500,000 roughly. I think that was the figure for customs under-estimation. Is that a thing upon which the Minister for Finance should congratulate himself —that he was so seriously out in his estimation of the product of that taxation? At the very least, unless there is another explanation—that he looks at it merely as a question of revenue raising—there was the greatest under-estimation and a consequent imposition of taxation that was not necessary and that yielded a sum that was altogether beyond what the Minister thought would have been yielded. You may say that it came largely from tariffed articles. Is the Minister prepared to stand by that? In fact, it did. In fact, as far as we can gather from the figures supplied and not supplied by the Minister—the figures mentioned in his Budget statement and the figures mentioned to-day in answer to Deputy Mulcahy—£1,000,000 of that or almost £1,100,000 of that, was due to wrong estimation of the produce of the tariffs.

That means what many of course expected at the time the tariffs were imposed. The obvious explanation of that, unless we have another explanation from the Minister on the matter, is that these tariffs did not act as protective tariffs. They acted as revenue-raising tariffs. They were a means of raising revenue. They were not at all tariffs that in their protective capacity came up to the height expected by the Minister for Finance, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, or the Government as a whole. They have not acted as a means of forwarding the industries of this country but, greatly to the satisfaction of the Minister for Finance apparently—but surely to the dissatisfaction of the Minister for Industry and Commerce—they must have acted mainly as revenue-producing tariffs. In other words, they are, to a large extent, taxes, not tariffs. Whether they are taxes or tariffs, they have been paid by the community, and in so far, as I have already said, as they have acted at all in a protective manner, they have probably sent up the price of articles here beyond that to which they would otherwise have gone.

The figures that he gave in the Budget statement for under-estimation on custom receipts amounted to about £366,000 out of the £1,500,000. Of the figures that he gave to-day the two principal items were, clothing and apparel £322,000 under-estimation, and boots and shoes £160,000 under-estimation, or practically £500,000 in these two items of under-estimation. In other words, to the extent of £500,000 in the case of clothing and apparel and boots and shoes they fall short of the Minister's expectation that they would act as protective tariffs, and to that extent at least the industrial policy of the Ministry has failed to come up to the Government's hopes. Then we have woven tissues and others, and another £400,000 that the Minister gave no information about. We can only assume that these are the dribs and drabs of the hundred tariffs and taxes that he imposes from week to week. That does suggest a good reason for the failure of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, in spite of repeated appeals made to him in the House, to indicate where the new factories are, how many people are engaged in them, and how many people have got out of employment in some trade and have gone into some of these industries. It will explain also the failure even of Fianna Fáil clubs to see the industries, and their protest against their non-existence in the spots under their eyes. It is quite obvious that, from the point of view of protection, these tariffs have not acted by any means up to the expectation of Ministers.

After all, there is no good in irritating the people too much at a time when, as I say, the bulk of the farming community feel themselves ground down by the policy of the Government —ground, if you like, between the two stones of the economic war and increased taxation. It is, therefore, time that the Ministry dropped speaking about the increased prosperity. That sort of talk sounds a hollow mockery in the ears of the ordinary farmer. By piling on tax after tax in the last couple of years, by gross under-estimation of the yield of these taxes, it has been possible for the Minister to come to the House and boast that he has balanced his Budget. Unfortunately, the private individual on the farm and the private individual in the country town who lives more immediately than does the city on the prosperity of the farming community, are not in a position to make the same happy boast that they have balanced their budgets. That is the really serious aspect of the Budget. People can hardly take the Budget statement of the Minister for Finance too seriously, but there is a very grave and serious aspect of the budgetary position in this country. The people ought to realise this and have their eyes open to the different implications of this Budget. As I said, the Minister can say that the State has balanced its Budget, but he has taken good care that some hundred thousands of people are less able to balance their budget at present than they were 12 months ago.

In the absence of any further laudation or elucidation of this Budget from the benches opposite, I find that it is necessary to follow my colleagues, Deputies Cosgrave and O'Sullivan, in making some comments upon it.

Both the last Budget and the one preceding it made upon me, personally, a more favourable impression than the one we are discussing now. I seem to be peculiar in that point of view, because I must admit that the Minister's Budget has had, on the whole, a good Press and that it has been praised even in some quarters where the deeds of the present Ministry are not normally praised. But I cannot help thinking that such praise as it has received has been due to the habit of a great many people of mistaking appearances for realities and of going by superficial statements rather than looking into the facts.

One thing that develops from some of the statements in the Minister's Budget speech, from some items in the Budget itself, and from the circumstances under which it was introduced, is that the time is ripe for overhauling our system of public accounts. It is really not satisfactory that there should be such large discrepancies between the Estimates and the actualities. We have been long enough in existence as a State to have arrived at more accurate methods than seem to be at present in vogue. It ought not to be the case that the Minister should think it quite normal and natural, after giving us his Estimates, to chop over £1,000,000 from the Estimates of expenditure as an allowance for over-estimation. Surely the time has come when these Estimates should be made with greater care and accuracy, and no chopping should be done afterwards by way of allowance. Similarly, it is not satisfactory that there should be such a gap as there was this last year between the Minister's Estimate of what the Customs duties were going to bring in and what, in fact, they did bring in. It is not satisfactory that there should be so little laid down in our financial practice as to what expenditure can be legitimately met by borrowing and what should be met out of revenue. It is not satisfactory either that a White Paper should appear a day or two before the actual Budget statement which, on the face of it, shows a deficit of £6,000,000, or thereabouts, and that then the Minister should come along and tell us in the Budget statement that, instead of there being such a deficit, the whole thing is moonshine and, in fact, there is a surplus of £1,250,000. I think that the public has a right to greater clearness in the presentation of the public accounts. The situation that exists at present puts the State at the mercy of the Government in power for the time being who, if they conducted the finances of the State on the principles of the late Mr. Horatio Bottomley, would find the system existing admirably adapted to the purpose of creating confusion between various accounts, so that the taxpayers would not really know what was happening to their money.

In introducing this Budget, the Minister for Finance made some remarks about the general financial strength of this country and he was followed along the same lines by the President, in his speech at Cork. Some of the remarks made were extremely interesting and were in striking contrast, as Deputy Cosgrave has pointed out, with the line taken by Fianna Fáil only a few years ago regarding the financial standing of this country. The financial conditions to which the President alluded at Cork have not grown up since the present Government came into office, nor do I think that it has even been pretended by Ministers themselves that these conditions grew up during that period. I am referring to the fact that it is possible to describe us as a creditor nation, that it is possible to say that we have such a large body of investments held by the citizens of this country, from which investments a steady income is received; that it is possible to say that we have reserves to fall back upon that are sufficient to give this country a very high financial standing amongst the nations of the world. To what are these circumstances due? Are they due to the policy of self-sufficiency? Are they due to a policy of republicanism? Are they due to destruction of our export trade? They are not due to anything of the kind. They arose during a period when our export trade was flourishing, when there was no self-sufficiency or attempted self-sufficiency—not that there is much approach to self-sufficiency to-day. The financial strength of this country was built up, slowly and gradually, by the industry of its inhabitants and, above all, by the industry of that very class—the agricultural class—which Ministers are most ready to mock at and insult at the present moment.

I should like the House to consider some of the consequences that flow from the condition of things which the President described. In the first place, must we not admit that the financial arrangements made by the Cumann na nGaedheal Government at the time of and since the Treaty deserve commendation? Must we not admit that they really achieved a great deal in relieving this country of the burden of national debt that is pressing on the people across the water? I think that the time has come when Ministers might show enough generosity to unsay a great many of the things they said before they had the responsibility of office about the alleged neglect of the interests of this country by their predecessors in connection with the financial negotiations with Great Britain. A further inference we ought to draw from the existence of these reserves is that the peaceful development of land purchase, especially under the Wyndham Act, as a result of the efforts of the Irish Party, did a great deal to spread prosperity throughout the country. There is only a bare handful of really rich men in this country and, when we are able to say that such a volume of investments is held by inhabitants of the country, we can be sure that those investments are widely distributed and are not held in just a few hands.

Another point arises in this connection. The President says that we are a creditor country. One of the characteristics of a creditor country is that it can afford to import. The idea that we were suffering from a wasting disease because we were importing a somewhat larger amount from Great Britain than we were exporting to Great Britain is exploded from a consideration of the results that flow from being a creditor country. Moreover we are not at all in the unfortunate position in which Great Britain herself is at present in relation, say, to the United States. We had a secure market over in England to enable us to keep up a large volume of exports. In consequence of our being able to keep up a large volume of exports, there was no technical difficulty in our paying any debts we might owe to Great Britain by the exchange of goods and services. I am perfectly certain that if, at the present moment, the Americans were to agree to accept payment of the British debt to them, even by way of tariffs on British goods going into that country, the British would be delighted. They would be still more delighted if they could be as sure of a permanent market in the United States for their produce as we could be of a permanent market for our produce in England but for the actions of the present Government.

There is yet another inference to be drawn from the facts to which the President pointed at Cork—an inference of considerable importance. That is, that Ireland has got a direct interest in British prosperity so long as we have that volume of investments in Great Britain. The prosperity that has developed in Great Britain during the past six months has already had very marked reactions in this country. It has enriched the people of this country. Farmers who have got small investments in British stocks have, thereby, been enabled to increase their overdrafts in the banks. Whether or not that is a wise thing for them to do is another question. I met a farmer last week-end who, I knew, had been, not long ago, in a bad position financially. He was overdrawn so far as he could be overdrawn at the bank. I asked him how he was getting along. He told me that his situation was now better because he had 100 Courtauld shares and, owing to the increase in the value of Courtauld shares, his bank manager allowed him to overdraw to a greater extent. I rather imagine that this little incident is typical of a thousand others, and it may, perhaps, throw a certain light on the increased expenditure to which the Minister drew attention in his speech. It also reminds us that the prosperity of British industrial concerns has markedly favourable effects in this country. The absurd character of the so-called economic war is illustrated by the fact that we have so much to lose by the destruction of our enemy. It is said that moderation in war is imbecility. We are in the position that moderation is forced upon us in our own interests, and if we had the power to go out and destroy British industry we should be ruining ourselves by doing so.

The fact of the matter is that we are drawing a huge annual tribute from England. We have heard a great deal about the annual tribute that the British were supposed to draw from us, in the shape of land annuities. There is not a bit more justification for calling that a tribute or telling us that it was draining the life-blood of Ireland than there is for calling a tribute the dividends that the Irish people draw from their investments in Great Britain, or to say that that is draining the life-blood of Great Britain. In fact the principal difference between the two forms of investment is this, that investment in Irish land was not merely something due in honour and conscience from the Irish farmers to the persons who lent their money by investing it, but was also something which had been guaranteed by the solemn statements of a whole series of Irish leaders. I can remember most clearly, in the old days of the Home Rule controversy, how indignant any of us, who were concerned in that controversy, were with British Tories when they said that the passing of Home Rule would result in a repudiation of the land annuities obligation.

Was there not something called confiscation preceding that period?

There was, but at the time the Land Act was passed in 1902, and at the time the Irish people accepted a loan to enable them to purchase the land, no allusion was made to these confiscations. It was never suggested that confiscation should be used as an excuse for subsequently repudiating the land annuities, and when the British Tories made a suggestion of that kind, our indignation was evidenced by denouncing them for defaming the Irish race. I do not want to go further into that matter, which is a little wide of the Budget, but I think it is important to point out that we have no right to agitate ourselves by saying that our life-blood was being drained away, as Fianna Fáil orators are so fond of saying, because we have been paying back a debt borrowed from private investors in England, which was applied to the most useful purpose that it could be applied in this country—not applied to buying gunpowder, and not applied to buying things to be blown into thin air —but to solid and advantageous purposes. It is worth while reminding ourselves that it is at least as sensible to say that we are drawing a tremendous tribute from Great Britain as it is to say that Great Britain was drawing a tribute from Ireland. We have no need to be ashamed of the financial position of this country in the world. That is not something for which Fianna Fáil can claim any credit whatsoever. Prior to their advent to office they did everything that in them lay to undermine that financial position. They wasted the State resources, as far as they could possibly waste them, and they did everything to blacken the characters of the persons who had built up the prosperous conditions to which I am now referring. If they could only realise the value of what was accomplished by Irish national leaders, before the establishment of the Free State, and what was accomplished by Deputy Cosgrave's Government at the time of, and immediately after, the establishment of the Free State, so much the better, and let us forget as quickly as we can their former folly and their former crime.

While the position is generally satisfactory in relation to the matters which the President described at Cork, we do not want to deceive ourselves, we do not want to convince ourselves that there is nothing we can do which will destroy the whole position. There is. I am not speaking for the moment of the Government's general policy with regard to agriculture, which will, in our opinion, infallibly destroy the whole position as time goes on, and is undermining it already, but of another matter to which Fianna Fáil back benchers, and some of their allies in the country, refer from time to time, the currency. I think it is worth saying, in view of the amount of talk and rumours going around for the last six months—I hope unfounded—with regard to experiments projected concerning the currency of this country, that nothing can so promptly and immediately destroy altogether our financial position as any tinkering with the currency. Capital is a very shy bird. We have not come to the stage yet in this country when capital is regarded as something not worth while. We have Ministers boasting about our capital resources. It may be that some of their supporters would like to see these capital resources destroyed. It is not so, at present, with the Government, and unless they want to see a wholesale destruction of our resources and a wholesale flight of capital from this country they should abstain from any tinkering with the currency.

There is one other matter I would like to mention in connection with the general financial position and our system of public accounts. In his speech the Minister referred to the making of provision for interest payable on savings certificates. It appeared from what he said that there had been negligence and bad financial practice in the past in that regard. I am not sufficiently familiar with what has taken place to say whether his complaint was justified. It may have been, and it may be that more could be said on the same subject at the present time. He only spoke about interest. I do not know what is the situation with regard to capital, and with regard to providing an adequate sinking fund for taking care of the capital obligations created by savings certificates. The same question arises with regard to the Post Office Savings Bank. As I stated at the beginning of my remarks, it seems to me that the public is very insufficiently informed on this matter. I think in future more trouble should be taken to keep our financial practice thoroughly sound in connection with matters of that kind, and also to keep the public well informed about them.

In the Minister's first Budget speech in 1932, he referred to the fact that he was providing grants-in-aid for the execution of works which would relieve unemployment. In his speech in Volume 41, No. 6, of the Official Debates, column 1520, he went on to say:—

"We hope next year to reap the full fruits of the Government's policy both in regard to industrial development and in regard to housing, and thereby to have secured a solution for the unemployment problem. There is every reason to expect that this hope will be fulfilled."

Next year, that is, last year. Then he proceeds:—

"We shall then be in the position that it will not be necessary to provide any further grants of this kind. We shall have set the wheels of industry going, broken the fallow field with the plough, and provided, for those who are to-day hungry and hopeless, the opportunity of earning their bread in their own land."

It would be unkind to inquire in detail as to how far that expectation has been fulfilled——

——an expectation based not, mind you, on the retention of the moneys claimed by Great Britain, on the retention of the land annuities, because it was a forecast made independent of that. If we succeeded in retaining the moneys that we have retained, still greater things might be looked for. In his last year's Budget speech the Minister told us that from customs duties he had collected less than half the amount estimated in contrast with the opposite experience this year. I mention that as just another illustration of the extraordinary difficulty of keeping abreast of public accounts in this country. He concluded his speech by saying:—

"We have thus obviated the need for further taxation, and, though existing taxes must continue for the present, are able to look forward to next year in the confident hope of better things."

Well now the Minister have fallen down completely in their promises to reduce expenditure. In spite of the fact that they had told us that they had minutely examined every Estimate and that they clearly saw before coming into office where £2,000,000 economies could be made, they have not accomplished anything of the kind. The Ministry have completely fallen down on another matter. In the first Budget speech of the Minister for Finance he informed us that they were going to bring in a number of business men, capable men with experience in other walks of life than the Civil Service, and with the aid of these people they were going to make sweeping changes in the whole structure of the Civil Service of this country, changes which would result in tremendous economies. They did nothing of that kind, and they made no attempt to do anything of that kind so far as the public is aware. In the speech from which I have just read they made promises with regard to unemployment which have turned out to be wholly fallacious. There remained then the question of realising the confident hope of better things expressed by the Minister for Finance in his Budget speech of last year. In other words the situation was such that there had to be a surplus this year. If there was not one it would be necessary to invent one, and accordingly a surplus has been invented.

I distinguish between the surplus realised on last year's Budget and the Budget surplus proper, which is the surplus that the Minister says would exist if the taxes for the coming year continued the same as they were last year. There was a surplus on last year's Budget. But that surplus is more than accounted for by a large increase in the receipts from Customs duties, by the large difference between Customs duties as estimated by the Minister for Finance and Customs duties as they actually resulted. We do not know what proportion of that increase was due to the new and unexpected Customs duties imposed in the course of the year at the request of the Minister for Industry and Commerce but we do know, as Deputy O'Sullivan has pointed out, that obviously the calculations of the Government were astray as to what the protective effect of those duties would be. They cannot have it both ways. They cannot congratulate themselves one vear on the Customs duties having been more protective and less revenue producing and congratulate themselves the next year on the Customs duties having been more revenue producing and less protective. They were wrong in their calculations at any rate and that is not a particular credit to them.

I want to mention just one or two of the items referred to by the Minister in his Budget speech as explaining the increase in the Customs duties. Take motor car duties. I think we must all realise that in the preceding year there was a complete paralysis in the buying of motor cars. That paralysis was due to the hope, held by people who would normally buy cars, that the duties imposed were not going to be permanent. That would certainly explain the larger part of the increase in the motor car duties. Buyers who had hoped that the duties would pass had come to the conclusion that they would not pass soon enough for them to go on waiting about buying a car. As regards the entertainment tax, I am not prepared to admit that an increased expenditure on entertainments proves an increase in prosperity. People who are suffering from depression feel the absolute necessity to go and be entertained. It was noteworthy that at the big American crash in 1929, when every other form of business was going down as fast as it could go, attendance at cinemas, at any rate, was actually going up for a considerable time. I will admit that eventually things changed but it took a very long time for them to change. I daresay the time will come in this country too, unless the Government's policy is altered, when there will be a considerable reduction in expenditure on entertainments. At the present time I do not admit that increased receipts from entertainments tax prove anything remarkable.

On the other hand it is very remarkable that income tax did not do better. Deputy McGilligan pointed out last year that according to all standards hitherto applied in calculating what the yield of income tax would be, the Minister had been extraordinarily pessimistic in his view of what the increase in income tax would bring in. The Minister's pessimism has proved to be right in that respect. It is to me very remarkable that it has proved to be right because there is no tax better than income tax to test whether the country is becoming more prosperous or not. Deputy Cosgrave pointed out that it is absurd for the Minister to blow his trumpet with regard to excess profits duty which is merely the collection of arrears which were due years before the present Government came into office. Altogether, in the absence of knowledge to what extent the increase in the produce of customs duties is the result of the imposition of new and unexpected duties, and in view of the considerations I have mentioned which apply to such duties as we have been told about, I find nothing at all impressive in the results.

Of course, there is no denying that largely increased State expenditure does have an inflationary effect. The expenditure of this State has been enormously increased and that money is going into somebody's pocket. It does produce a temporary, an artificial, an unsound prosperity, just as the very unsound situation prevailing in America immediately before the 1929 crash gave the impression of immense prosperity. There is not a single factor that the Minister has applied to the problem of discovering how we are getting on in this country that, if applied to America in that period, would not have informed him that the financial position of America was quite impregnable. The trouble is that to know what the real financial position of the real financial position of the country is, you have to look below the surface. There are fundamentally unsound factors in Ireland at present which have escaped the observation of the Government, or, at any rate, which the Government affect not to observe.

Nobody in the Fianna Fáil Party seems to be in the least horrified by the enormous figure of this Government expenditure. Twenty-five years ago, in 1909, there was a Budge' brought in by Mr. Lloyd George which created great indignation in this country because it imposed some additional taxes on Irish industries, particularly, I think, on the whiskey industry. It was denounced by all Parties in this country. Only a week ago, in the "Twenty-Five Years Ago" column in the Irish Sunday Independent, I read with entertainment the statements made then by Mr. John Dillon and Lord Dunraven and others about the iniquity of the taxation imposed upon this country, and about the sheer impossibility of our carrying on under such taxation. As a result of that Budget the sum raised by taxation in the Twenty-Six Counties was increased to a figure certainly less than one-third of what is being raised now by the Fianna Fáil Government. Nor is it a case of money having been just taken and spent elsewhere, because, as the result of the 1909 Budget, there were some two millions a year or more spent in Ireland over and above what was drawn from Ireland by taxation. In those days we all said the country could not possibly stand taxation on that scale, Similarly, when Fianna Fáil were in Opposition, only a few years ago, they said that we could not possibly stand taxation on the scale imposed by the Cumann na nGaedheal Government. To-day they are saying that the Cumann na nGaedheal Government was heartless and callous to the last degree, because it did not spend more on relieving destitution and unemployment and so forth. If the Cumann na nGaedheal Government was heartless and callous, what must we say about the heartlessness and callousness of the Front Bench members of the then Opposition, who not only did not urge the Cumann na nGaedheal Government to spend more, but denounced them in the fiercest terms for spending anything like what they were spending? To-day nobody on those benches opposite has any qualms, apparently, about the size of our expenditure. We have such qualms. We would have them in any case even of agriculture was on as good a basis to-day as it was before the present Government came into office. But we have far more qualms on the subject when we know that agriculture is steadily going downhill, racing downhill, and there is no hope held out for its future by the policy of the present Government.

Not alone are the Fianna Fáil Party in no way alarmed by the volume of taxation, but they have started propaganda in favour of increasing the National Debt. Our National Debt figures are being compared with those of other European countries and people are being asked to realise that our National Debt is a very small one and we could do a great deal more borrowing. I think propaganda of that sort is extremely dangerous. We have been extraordinarily lucky to escape the British National Debt. After all, assets were created in this country by the British National Debt. In connection with the formation of the British National Debt, assets were created in this country and prosperity and possessions came to individuals in this country which we still have and enjoy. The Debt itself we have escaped, largely by the skill and success in negotiation of the Cumann na nGaedheal Government. It used to be always pointed out by Irish national leaders that one of the great advantages of Irish self-government would be, if we could achieve it, to escape from the burden of a National Debt. Wolfe Tone used to say that this country would go up like a balloon if it separated from England, because it would not be burdened by a National Debt. Some of our enthusiastic politicians are now urging us to go as fast as we can in creating a National Debt of a size and majesty worthy of the dignity of this country. I deplore that tendency and I deplore it all the more because there is a body of opinion here which would be eager, if it got into power, to repudiate National Debts altogether. I have not the slightest doubt that the recruits who are flocking, it is alleged, to the standard of the I.R.A. and the small but noisy Communist section in this country would be quite delighted, if they got into power or into the position that they could control any Government that was in power, to repudiate the capital obligations of this country, even to our own citizens, on the ground that they were imperialists and capitalists, because everything that has to do with capital is imperialistic, according to these people. The less temptation we put in the way of a possible socialist Government to do anything of that kind the better. In other words, let us keep our National Debt so low, and we can keep it low, that it would not be worth while from anybody's point of view to repudiate it.

I should like to turn to the method by which the Minister for Finance succeeded in showing a surplus in the present year of £1,202,000, and to mention the items to which I object, but which have enabled him to arrive at such a figure of surplus. Here, I am bound to say, that I find myself somewhat more concerned than the generality of newspapers, even than those of the Government seem to be.

I do not believe the Government ought to borrow £102,000 for the erection of an industrial alcohol plant. I regard that proposition as entirely uneconomic. If it has got to be done. as a measure of unemployment relief, or a measure of political propaganda, or whatever be the reason, it should be done, in my view, out of revenue, and not by borrowing. It appears to me, also, in regard to the £1,000,000 for Dáil Eireann external loan, that while we could not be expected to shoulder the paying off of that loan in one year it should not be classed as part of our national debt. It created no asset in this country of a profitable kind, and I consider that it should be amortised by a certain amount being paid off year by year out of revenue.

Deputy Mulcahy agreed it was not an asset.

We are getting a little back in connection with it in income tax from the Irish Press.

As regards the £110,000 required for compensation in respect of property injured during the troubled times, there, again, I would wish to see that money gradually provided out of revenue and not added to the national debt.

Why did not our predecessors do all this?

I am not concerned about what your predecessors did.

But you are associated with them.

The present Ministry has denounced everything its predecessors did and cannot, therefore, excuse itself by their example. The Leader of the Opposition has already criticised the methods of the Government in borrowing £1,500,000 required towards defraying the export bounties and subsidies, and I thoroughly agree with him on that point. I criticised the same feature of the Government's Budget last year, and, as it turned out, the Government did not borrow under last year's Budget for that purpose and I congratulate them.

Did you criticise it in the official statement issued from Fine Gael headquarters?

The Minister need not interrogate me about the issue of a statement from Fine Gael headquarters, because I did not read it. It would seem more to the point if we concerned ourselves with what people say in this House.

What they say, seriously?

The Government have taken full advantage of the money that they have retained as a result of the refusal to pay the land annuities to Great Britain. That money is coming into revenue, in so far as it is not reduced by the concession made to the payers of the annuities. As the Government are using that money as revenue, I cannot see any case at all for not paying out of revenue the corresponding bounties and subsidies that become necessary as a result of the Government's own folly. The Leader of the Opposition pointed out that it was by no means certain that even the present Government, much as it wishes to do so, would be able, indefinitely, to abstain from coming to some arrangement about these moneys. I wonder have the Government ever thought of the embarrassment that might have accrued for them by the return to power of a Labour Government in England. The British Labour Party are committed, by the utterances of their leaders, to having this dispute settled by arbitration at the Hague Tribunal. If the Labour Party should get back into power, as has been so enthusiastically predicted by the Irish Press, at the next general election, I wonder how the Government here, if still in office, will enjoy the situation, knowing, as they do, that the Labour Government would propose to submit the whole question in dispute between ourselves and Great Britain to the Hague Tribunal. I think our Government would find it excessively embarrassing, and they might find that their methods of accounting, in connection with the land annuities, had very little regard to facts and proprieties.

Finally there is this £4,200,000 that is to be borrowed for the Local Loans Fund. Now, the Minister has given us nothing like sufficient information to judge how much of that is an economic proposition; how much is going to produce wealth; how much of it is likely to be ultimately repaid; how much of it is likely to pay interest. Our view is that the financial position of these local authorities, throughout the country, is extremely precarious. The ability of the agricultural community to pay rates is something that cannot be depended upon at the present moment, and still less can it be depended upon for the future. I think it in the highest degree reckless, and improvident, to lend out such immense sums as the Minister is proposing to lend out, in the immediate future, without taking cognisance of the fact that a very large proportion of the money may be lost. Under these circumstances I conceive that if it is necessary to make these loans in order to mitigate the terrible distress created by the Government's policy, we should make them with our eyes open and we should make as large a contribution to them as ever we can out of revenue, and not by borrowing.

Now I need hardly say that if my objections to the £1,000,000 for overestimation of expenditure and my objections to the extent of the borrowing for the Local Loans Fund, property losses, industrial alcohol, the external loan, and the export bounties and subsidies are justified, not alone does the surplus disappear but we get back again to a very substantial deficit. I maintain that there is a very much better case for saying that there is a real budgetary deficit for the year 1934-35 than for saying that there is a surplus.

Now I want to say just a word on two items of increased expenditure in the coming year. One is the Army. Although one is almost weary of pointing to the inconsistencies between the acts of the present Government and their previous statements, I really feel that they cannot be allowed to escape without their attention being drawn to the violent inconsistency of their statements about the cost of the Army and what they are actually doing about it.

The question of the cost of the Army should be raised on the Estimates.

Is it out of order to do so now?

Itemised expenditure should be raised on the Estimates and not on the Budget debate which is usually confined to general financial policy.

Very well. I take it from that, that at this stage we should abstain from discussing the propriety of any of the items of expenditure included in this Budget. Is that correct?

The whole field of taxation and expenditure is open to discussion on the Budget, but particular items should be discussed on the appropriate Estimates. Otherwise, there would be a duplication of debate. The question the Deputy has referred to can be debated on the Vote for the Office of the Minister for Defence or on the Army Vote.

Does that apply to entirely new items of expenditure, such as pensions for members of the Republican Army?

That particular item may be debated as it has arisen for the first time on the Budget, and consequently the expenditure involved has not been provided for in any particular Vote.

I do not propose to go into that question in any detail. But there, again, we remember what the Fianna Fáil Ministers have said about the impropriety of giving pensions to young able-bodied men. I did not gather from the Minister's statement that there was to be any inquiry in the giving of pensions whether a man was young and able-bodied, or whether he was injured in health. Is that incorrect?

These will be service pensions.

Other things were not to matter? The mere fact of having served after the Treaty in the civil war only, would that be sufficient?

There would have to be joint service in both the war of independence and in the civil war.

At any rate, on that particular subject the Fianna Fáil Ministers have adopted fully the policy that they denounced in the case of the Cumann na nGaedheal Government, and have added to it. But I suppose it is a waste of breath to be pointing out their inconsistencies. There are, however, in this Budget no pensions provided for farmers.

Who are fighting all the wars.

As my friend behind says, the farmers are engaged in fighting a war at the present moment. The farmer has fought many wars before for this country. Personally, I am bound to say that I would rather give a pension to a man who had laboured hard all his days: who had done his best to be industrious, honest and thrifty, and provide for his family, and now finds himself ruined by the Government's policy—a broken soldier in a silly and unnecessary economic war—than to provide one for some of those for whom the Government are providing it. The truth of the matter is that the Government are pursuing an economic policy which is undermining this country's prosperity. While, at one moment, they are boasting of all that has been accomplished in the way of establishing our prosperity and acclaiming results that could not have been accomplished except on economic principles totally in conflict with the Government's economic principles, at another moment they are undoing the work of generations and gratuitously throwing away one of the safest export trades enjoyed by any country in the world. While they are thus undermining the economic position of this country they are, at the same time, spending money on an unprecedented scale and mortgaging the whole future of Ireland by enormous borrowing.

I find this Budget less satisfactory than either of its predecessors. I criticised both when they came forward. I criticised them, I think, with rather exceptional moderation for a member of the Opposition, but I believe that this Budget is worse than either of them, because so far from diminishing expenditure it has increased it, and because whatever claims the preceding Budgets have had to be honest Budgets, I am satisfied that the present Budget is not an honest Budget.

Time and again I have advised the Party opposite that, before participating in a debate upon a matter of importance, they should foregather in some committee room and agree, amongst themselves, on what they are going to say. Parliamentary procedure is being upset and the normal practice of this House has been departed from, because the Party opposite appear to permit each individual member to take an individual line.

And the Minister's Party does not.

Deputy MacDermot said that, properly speaking, the Budget disclosed a large deficit: that it was much more correct to say that the Budget disclosed a deficit than that it disclosed a surplus. But who was the first to say that the Budget disclosed a surplus? Long before the Minister for Finance came into the Dáil to deliver his Budget statement, an official document was issued by the Executive Committee of the Fine Gael Party.

No. I am a member of the Executive of Fine Gael and no such document was issued by us.

Well, a document was issued from the offices of the Fine Gael Party purporting to come from the executive committee. It was accepted as such by certain newspapers, which set out in great detail the calculations upon which Fine Gael based their contention: that not merely was there a surplus, but a much larger surplus than the Minister for Finance admitted to. On the basis of that contention of theirs they urged, and have since urged, that a much greater reduction in taxation should have been effected this year than that actually proposed. Now Deputy MacDermot, one of the Vice-Presidents of the Party, comes into this House and completely disowns that official statement, or that statement which purported to be official, and takes an entirely contrary line of argument. Of course, it is not the first time that has happeded.

I came into the House after Deputy MacDermot had commenced his speech and I did not hear his opening remarks. I was glad I came in nevertheless, because at the time I arrived he was demonstrating the fact that the policy of the Opposition in relation to the land annuities had completed the full circuit at last, and had come round to where it started from. When this question of the land annuities was raised five or six years ago, Deputy MacDermot's present colleagues, Deputies Blythe, Hogan and Mulcahy, made then precisely the type of speech that he made here to-day. He said that the land annuities were an honourable obligation of the Irish farmers; that people in Great Britain had invested their money in Irish land purchase and were entitled to get that money back and the interest on it; and that it would be an utterly dishonourable and dishonest thing for anybody to propose that the payments of the interest and sinking fund on the land bonds should not be a charge on the Irish Exchequer. Time went on, and in the course of time the Cumann na nGaedheal Party went out of office and into Opposition, and immediately they went into Opposition their policy began to change. When the question of the land annuities was raised again in the House, following the publication of the Government's intention to retain them and to support its retention of them by legal arguments, which the Government was prepared to sustain in any court, the Opposition Party began to urge that we should go to Great Britain and see the British Ministers, and that we should there urge that the land annuities should not be paid, or at least that they should not be paid in full, because we could not afford to do it. At that particular time the Opposition, apparently, thought that the fact that the payment was a bit of a burden was a sufficient justification for repudiating the "honourable obligation."

Not repudiating it.

Well, not meeting the "honourable obligation." Deputies can call it repudiation if they like, but their suggestion was that, because we could not afford to pay, we should seek to avoid paying the interest on this money "which was invested by British citizens in the best possible investment in Ireland." With the passage of time, the Opposition Party again veered away from that particular standpoint. They came, under the stress of the election of 1933, very close to the standpoint of the Government. In fact, I think I remember Deputy Cosgrave giving the most solemn undertaking to the electorate that, if his Party were returned to power, he would go over to Great Britain and, in three days, he was going to make an arrangement with the British Government under which the farmers would only have to pay half the annuities in the future. This "investment by British people in the best possible investment in Ireland" was not regarded quite in that light during the heat of the election of 1933. Of course, I appreciate that disappointed politicians, realising that their stock is very low and that their chances of securing votes are not very great, often resort to desperate expedients. Deputy Cosgrave, at that particular time, apparently, had not the benefit of Deputy MacDermot's high moral outlook, and, equally, had forgotten the speeches delivered by his own colleagues some years earlier when the land annuities first became a matter of public controversy.

The Party opposite, however, did not stop at that. Firstly, they were all for meeting our honourable obligations and for paying back in full those British people who had invested their money in the best possible investment in Ireland. Then they wanted to avoid paying because it was a bit difficult and we could not afford to pay. Next, they were going to pay back only half, or 50 per cent. of the honourable obligation. But they went further than that. They elected a new leader—one, General O'Duffy—who announced that no matter what Government came into office the land annuities never again would be paid to Great Britain. They had started moving around the circle, but when they completed it they began to come back again. Within a few weeks General O'Duffy was trimming and explaining that he did not quite mean what he said, or, at least, he did not mean it in the manner in which people took it up. Now we are back where we started, and we have Deputy MacDermot telling us to-day that the land annuities were an honourable obligation to the Irish farmers, that as such they must be paid, and that if we tried to sustain a case in any court to show that they were not a legal obligation on the Irish Exchequer, we could not succeed in sustaining such a case.

If I might be permitted to interrupt the Minister, I should like to say that I made no statement at all about the legal aspect of the matter. I might say also—it is worth getting these things clear—that I have always thought that, owing to the mix-up that occurred with regard to the 1920 Home Rule Bill and the question of whether it came into effect in Southern Ireland or not, and the fact that the provisions of that Bill in regard to the land annuities, apparently, were overlooked at the time of the Treaty by all concerned—I have always thought it conceivable that the Government had a legal case with regard to this question of the land annuities. I do not think that they had a moral case, but I have always thought it conceivable that they had a legal case. However, not being a legal expert, I cannot give a definite view on the matter.

The Deputy is travelling around the circle again so fast now that he has passed the starting point for the second time. He suggested that the Government would be very disappointed, if, in fact, a Labour Government in Great Britain offered to submit the question to arbitration. Thereby he implied that we had no legal case for the retention of the land annuities.

I implied nothing more than that it was a doubtful proposition.

Nobody has ever questioned the obligation of the farmers. The question which has been raised is the obligation on the Irish Government to transmit from the Irish Exchequer to the British Exchequer the full amount collected by the Irish Government in land annuities. Nobody loaned money to the Irish farmers. No group of individuals in Great Britain, investing their capital in the best possible investment in Ireland, loaned their money to Irish farmers. The money that was expended on land purchase was borrowed by the British Government, was secured on their guarantee, the interest was paid by the British Government, and the repayment charges were made out of the British Exchequer. The question that has been raised is whether or not there is on the Exchequer of the Irish Free State an obligation to recoup the British Exchequer for the amounts it expends in that connection. There is no such obligation. Not merely is there no such obligation, but the British Government, in fact, has admitted that there is no obligation.

Deputy MacDermot should refresh his memory on this whole issue. If he did so, he would not be so ready to speak about it. If he did so, he would remember that our predecessors when they were in office officially published, at the expense of the taxpayers, their official case for the payment of the land annuities. It is a State document. Deputy MacDermot can find it in the Library. They set out their case for the payment of the land annuities in that document. The very first thing that the British Government made clear, as soon as the discussions and negotiations on this matter commenced, was that they were not standing on that case, because they admitted that it was untenable. The very first communication on the subject made it clear that the British Government were relying not on that case which their friends in Ireland had presented ready-made to them but upon the agreement, now known as the Secret Agreement, which our predecessors had made with the British Government and which was something entirely distinct and separate from the Home Rule Act or of the Treaty of 1921. An offer to submit that case to arbitration has been made and it is still open. If Deputy MacDermot thinks he has any influence with the British Government or if the British Government think that Deputy MacDermot's opinion is of any value, and if they take the trouble to read his remarks here to-day, it will be of interest to them to know that the willingness of the Government here to argue its case before any impartial tribunal has not been modified in any way.

Deputy MacDermot talked about a number of other things than the land annuities. He, of course, said that we should confine our speeches here to matters that arose in the House, such as the criticism of speeches delivered in the House, and he then proceeded to occupy 20 minutes in criticising the President's speech in Cork. That was merely a digression on his part, of course. However, I am going to confine myself to the remarks he made here and now, and not even to the speeches he made a short while ago. No doubt one could contradict every argument he put forward here to-day on every subject by quoting some speech delivered by some other member of his Party within the past month. I do not know quite what Deputy MacDermot was getting at when he talked about repudiation of National Debt and experiments in currency. Deputy Cosgrave here some time ago tried to do as much damage as he possibly could to the national credit by the speech which he delivered on the Bill for the abolition of the Seanad. He tried to create as much uneasiness as possible in the minds of the people who control capital and who are, not merely in this country but in all countries, naturally apprehensive as to the future. Deputy MacDermot appears to have been following his leader's footsteps to-day.

There is no intention of experimenting with currency. It does not follow from that that we believe that the Currency Act, 1927, is the last word to be said on matters relating to currency here, but whatever opinions we may hold on that matter have been much less forcibly expressed in the past than the opinions of some of Deputy MacDermot's colleagues. Deputy Belton used to speak about this Currency Act. In fact, for many years his sole point of criticism of the Fianna Fáil Party was that they permitted that Act to pass through without coming into the Dáil to oppose it.

Hear, hear!

Deputy MacDermot and Deputy Belton will perhaps foregather after this discussion and see if they can reconcile their views on this question of currency.

And you reconciled your views with your Republican views.

The Deputy is overcome with emotion.

So do not blow hot and cold.

All this talk about repudiating National Debt could have had only one motive behind it, and that was to try to create apprehension. Deputy MacDermot knows quite well that there is no intention on the part of the present Government in any way to repudiate its National Debt obligations, and the prospects of any Government being elected in this country which would repudiate the National Debt are much more remote than the similar prospects in any other country in Europe. It is always possible that in some country a Government will obtain office, either by popular approval or by force, which will repudiate the obligations of its predecessors, but the prospect of that happening in the Irish Free State is much less even than in Great Britain and certainly much less than in any other country on the Continent of Europe. The National Debt of this State—and when I refer to the National Debt I am speaking of the deadweight debt—is less than half the annual revenue of the State. It is a remarkably strong position for this country to be in.

Hear, hear!

Virtually the whole of our public debt is owed internally, which is another great source of strength, and anybody who wants to engage in industrial enterprise in this country or to invest funds in any of the trustee securities available here can do so with much more confidence than in practically any other country.

We have been told that agriculture is racing downhill. That is a very vivid phrase. It gives us a picture of everything rushing headlong to disaster. "Prices are falling; sales are falling; and the incomes of the farmers are falling." That is the type of statement that is made every week-end from Fine Gael platforms. It is a very interesting statement. It gives Deputies opposite an opportunity of indulging in flights of oratory. The only thing wrong with it is that it is not true, but, of course, that does not worry them.

It does not worry you.

I am going to bore the Dáil by bringing up to date certain information which I have already given them twice this year. Twice, during the course of previous discussions, I made the statement that the prices now prevailing for agricultural products are substantially higher than the prices prevailing on the same date last year, with one exception.

Calf skins.

I made that statement in February, and I quoted the prices prevailing then and compared them with the prices prevailing on the corresponding date in February of the previous year. I made that statement at the beginning of April, and I compared the prices prevailing at the beginning of April, 1934, with the prices prevailing at the beginning of April, 1933. I am now going to bring the Deputy's information up to date. For the first list of products, the latest date for which returns have been received is 28th April, and the prices on that date are to be compared with the prices on 29th April, 1933. For white oats the price in 1934 was 7/5 per cwt., and in 1933, 6/6 per cwt. Black oats were 6/4 as against 5/7. Potatoes in 1934 were 4/1 per cwt. as against 2/5 in 1933. Bacon pigs were 60/- per cwt. as against 54/-, and porkers 51/6 as against 51/3. Farmers' butter was 9d. per lb. as against 8¾d., and hen eggs 7¼d. per dozen as against 6¾d. per dozen. Fat lambs on 26th April were 57/3, as against 48/-, and fat sheep, on 3rd May, were 38/6, as against 33/9. These figures do not bear out the statement that agriculture is rushing downhill. They show that there has been an all-round improvement in agricultural prices.

You do not know what you are talking about.

The prices of all the commodities to which I have referred are higher this year than they were on the same date last year. Deputy Belton cannot contradict that. I know he will try, but he cannot. His contradiction will not carry any conviction. We must also have regard to the fact that measures for the alleviation of the agricultural position have been adopted in this year on a more generous scale than in last year.

And why, if it is better off?

Because the country is better off, and the people can afford

Then why those measures? You cannot have it both ways.

Do not forget the rhubarb!

I have several times tried to impress upon the Deputies opposite that when a Minister or a member of the Fianna Fáil Party sets out to prove that conditions in this country are not as bad as members of the Party opposite would have the people believe, he is not at the same time suggesting that they could not be better. Conditions could be better. Conditions here are, in fact, better than they are in most countries——

Name them.

——but they could be better still, and various methods are being adopted day after day and week after week to improve them.

Name the countries in which conditions are worse than they are here.

The Isle of Man!

Speak to the Parliamentary Secretary if you want to discuss conditions there.

Deputy MacDermot said that we had thrown away one of the most valuable and secure export trades in the world. Deputy MacDermot is again, of course, hoping that people will have regard only to the decline in the export trade of this country, and not take into account the position generally throughout the world. Only some days ago the Economic Intelligence Service of the League of Nations issued a report upon world trade in 1933. "In the first place," they pointed out, "the total volume of goods exchanged between countries has diminished by about 30 per cent. by comparison with 1929. In the second place, the quantitative fall has been accompanied by a considerable drop in the prices of the goods exchanged. On the basis of gold prices this drop is about 50 per cent. If the two sets of percentages, namely, the volume of trade and the price index of the goods exchanged, are combined so as to give an idea of the total value of trade in 1933, as compared with 1929, it becomes apparent that on the basis of gold the total value of trade in 1933 is less than one-third of the trade in 1929." Now, the total value of the trade of the Irish Free State is substantially more than one-third of what it was in 1929.

In gold prices?

In gold prices.

Give us the relevant figures now.

The Deputy can make them out for himself. It is only a matter of simple arithmetic.

Our pound is only worth 12/-.

On the basis of his calculations he will find that the external trade of this country, despite all the vicissitudes to which it has been subject, has declined substantially less than the average of all countries— substantially less than the decline which has taken place in international trade as a whole.

Thirty per cent.

A large part of that decline in trade which has taken place has been due to causes outside our control, causes not merely outside the control of this Government but outside the control of any Government that will ever operate in this country.

You made the causes.

The Deputy is talking nonsense.

He is not.

The Deputy is trying to infer, as he has on many occasions inferred in the past, that there is some action open to the Government of this country which would secure for Irish agricultural produce unrestricted entry into the British market.

That is not so. I again refer the Deputy to the report of the correspondence which passed between the New Zealand Government and the British Government upon the possibility of getting free entry for New Zealand products into the British market, and the refusal of the British Government to consider the proposal. I refer him to the negotiations and the discussions which took place between the Australian Government and the British Government, following which the Australian High Commissioner said that "even if we offered to take all our imports from Great Britain, and to take them free of duty, we would not get, in return for that, free entry for Australian products to the British market." Does Deputy Belton or any other Deputy opposite think that what the Government of New Zealand and the Government of Australia could not secure from Great Britain they can secure?

But we had it until you threw it away.

So had the New Zealanders and the Australians.

So had everybody else.

Until the National Government went into office in Great Britain with a policy of protecting British agriculture—a policy which is likely to persist there.

Did Australia and New Zealand not increase their exports to Great Britain within the past two years?

Precisely, and if the Deputy has been taking an interest in those matters he will have read the speeches of the British Minister for Agriculture in which he deplored the fact that under the Ottawa agreement he could not stop their increasing their imports, but that when the Ottawa agreement terminated next month he would then consider the matter.

They had gone down to 30 per cent.

Those are matters which have been discussed in the past and it is not necessary to go over them again. The fact is that the Budget is an index to the national strength. The Budget has shown that the policy of the Government is working out exactly as we foretold. Deputy MacDermot quoted an extract from the Minister for Finance's Budget statement in 1932, in which he said that in 1933 the Government's housing policy would be operating, that the Government's industrial policy would be operating, and that the Government's agricultural policy would be operating. In 1933 the housing policy of the Government was in operation, and under that policy we have built or started to build more houses than were built during the whole ten years that Cumann na nGaedheal were in office. In relation to labourers' cottages, we have built or started to build 20 per cent. of the total number built over the past 50 years. Not merely are those houses being built throughout the country, but they are being built for the first time almost entirely of Irish material, and equipped with Irish furniture and Irish goods of various kinds. The industrial policy of the Government is working out. The Estimate for the Department of Industry and Commerce will come before the Dáil quite soon, and Deputies opposite can say what they like about the industrial policy of the Government on that occasion. I know they are delighted at every set-back that policy may experience. Whenever any particular plan for industrial development does not work out as rapidly or as completely as we anticipated, members of the Cumann na nGaedheal Party cannot restrain their cheering. Everything that operates to retard industrial development or to increase unemployment is a source of joy to them, but their joy has been short-lived and will rapidly disappear altogether.

If the Minister wants to make accusations of that kind——

I will make them if I like.

——he should mention the names of the people who cheered.

I will mention one name —Deputy Belton.

I deny it. I was an industrial revivalist before the Minister ever started, and am still.

The Minister has been interrupted nine times within the last four minutes. Surely that is not giving fair-play? Every other Deputy is entitled to speak, so the Minister ought to get an opportunity of making his speech.

I would not have interrupted only the Minister made a general accusation, which is tantamount to accusing this Party of treason—cheering when something is going wrong with the country. If he has a case, let him mention the name of any individual in this Party or any other Party. The Minister cheered when he blew up bridges.

In the matter of agriculture we are prepared to admit that the circumstances which existed in 1933 were not those which we anticipated would be there when reorganisation by Fianna Fáil was being put into operation. Despite those circumstances that policy has been brought into operation. In a period of world depression, in a period during which agriculture in all countries has been brought to the wall, we have succeeded in effecting changes which have strengthened the position of the agricultural industry and are going to enable it to secure in the future a prosperity which, if the old policy had operated, it could never have realised.

There is one other matter to which I want to refer. Deputy MacDermot questioned the advisability of repaying the Dáil Eireann External Loan out of capital. He said that the expenditure of that loan created no asset. I can understand Deputy MacDermot taking that point of view, but I should be astonished if those who are associated with him in the Fine Gael Party— Deputy O'Higgins or Deputy Mulcahy, or even the leader of that Party, if he is the leader, General O'Duffy—would be prepared to subscribe to the viewpoint that no asset was created here by the expenditure of the £1,000,000 of the loan that was raised in America during the Black-and-Tan period. As a result of that loan we got the Treaty and the Free State, and there are many people who are doubtful whether they are assets or not.

The Minister has changed his mind on that.

The expenditure of that money was of very great benefit to the people of this country when they were most in need of assistance of that kind. We are proposing to repay it, not in dribs and drabs over a number of years but to repay it now when the opportunity of repaying it has come, and the repaying it out of capital is in accordance with the soundest financial principles, financial principles to which our predecessors subscribed when they repaid the internal loan. I was rather interested in Deputy MacDermot's suggestion that we should give the farmers pensions. He said he would sooner give pensions to farmers than to people for I.R.A. services.

I do not think he said that.

He certainly implied that.

I think, in fact, what he said was that the only thing that now remained was to give pensions to farmers.

He said that he preferred to give pensions to farmers than to give pensions to young men. There is a lot to be said for that. The only thing I want to suggest is that the Party opposite might adopt the same policy in that matter. We would be very glad to facilitate them if they decided to redistribute amongst themselves all the pensions available. I can see Deputy Mulcahy offering his pension to Deputy Belton and Deputy O'Higgins offering his pension to Deputy Corry and the generally oppressed farmers of Fine Gael being in circumstances of comparative affluence because of the generosity of their colleagues, but the announcement of it by Deputy MacDermot caused me considerable surprise.

The Minister who has just sat down has always been notorious in this House for his recklessness in handling facts and his recklessness as regards truth and accuracy. I think he has eclipsed previous records here to-night in his cheap jibes against the members of the Opposition Party, in order to cover up his failure to make even an attempt at dealing with the Budget. It may be shame, it may be laziness, it may be ignorance or it may be a mixture of the whole three but, at all events, he has taken up the attention of this House for the best part of three-quarters of an hour and he has never touched on the Budget. The records of this House and the records of his speech will show that that statement of mine is in accordance with facts. He has dealt with the external loan. He has dealt with the land annuities. He has dealt—and I congratulate him on his courage which I never doubted—with the agricultural position in the country and with agricultural prices in this country. He has produced for the Dáil with all the cockiness of a city man, as evidence of the nation's prosperity, the fact that white oats this year produced 7/5 per cwt.; that eggs are selling at 7½d. per dozen; that fat lambs are selling at 57/3——

I did not represent these prices as being satisfactory, but I quoted them to show that prices were higher than last year.

I accept the Minister's prices as evidence of the unsatisfactory economic condition of the country. Will the Minister meet me there?

I quoted these prices merely to draw attention to them and to show that prices were going up, not, as Deputy MacDermot said, going down.

The Minister, in a moment of cockiness, produced these figures as evidence of the prosperity of the country. When certain figures are quoted back to him he interrupts to say that they are evidence of the lack of prosperity in the country, and that is exactly the point I was proceeding to make, that the very figures produced by the Minister are the surest sign of the disastrous results of the policy followed by the Fianna Fáil Party in this country. Perhaps the reason why we have such prices, why we have depression in the main industry of the country, is because the Party opposite took the advice which the Minister started by giving us. He opened his speech by asking us why all the members of the Opposition do not meet in a room and secretly agree as to what each one will say when they come into the House, why we should not attempt to damp all initiative, why we should not interfere with free expression of opinion in this House and do as members of his Party do—become a lot of "yes"-men mutes and nodders. It is a habit of the Minister for Industry and Commerce to come in here and ask why we do not all come together and why we do not agree to say the same thing when we come in here. If any policy is calculated to trample on the utility of any Party in the country, it is that which would be adopted if we were to follow the advice given by the Minister. I did not hear the interruption of the Minister for Finance.

I was merely asking why the leaders opposite could not agree as to what their policy is.

The Minister for Finance says "Ditto," but if there is any circumstance likely to damn the prospect of success of any policy in this country, even though it is advocated by the Minister for Industry and Commerce, it is the fact that the Minister for Finance says "Ditto," because everything he has put his hand to in this country since he became Minister for Finance has been a failure, and the biggest failure of all is the Budget which he has put before us to-day. The Budget was introduced by the Minister with the announcement that he balanced the Budget without borrowing. I am speaking not as an accountant or a Minister for Finance. I am speaking more as a person who deals with facts and deals with straightforward figures, and I am certain there are many Deputies opposite who must be mystified with this.

The Minister for Finance starts off by telling us that he balanced his Budget without borrowing, and he proceeds to confess a thing which could not be very well withheld, that, in fact, he borrowed some £6,000,000. That is with regard to the past year. He then proceds to deal with the year ahead of us and he prepares his estimate of income and expenditure so as to show a surplus of £2,000. In that process again he proceeds to borrow a sum of £7,212,000 to balance the Budget and to show a surplus. It strikes me that an easier way to do away with taxation and to show a surplus of the whole expenditure would be to go out and borrow the whole amount. If you are entitled to borrow £7,000,000 out of £38,000,000 and thereby arrive at a surplus, why not proceed to borrow the whole £38,000,000? Deputies shake their heads but Deputies will have an opportunity after me of explaining why it is that you can borrow one-fourth or one-fifth of the total amount in order to arrive at a surplus and not be able to borrow the other four-fifths. I understand that there is a lot of juggling in regard to things for which you cannot borrow, but I wonder if the Party opposite would accept the ruling of the Minister for Finance, as to what you are justified in borrowing for and what you are not justified in borrowing for, when he occupied a place on these benches. There are items before us for which we propose to borrow in the course of this year, such as local loans, property losses, advance to Guarantee Fund. Every one of these was challenged by the Minister for Finance when he stood here. In which capacity is he acting perfectly honestly? Is it when he spoke from this bench or when he spoke from that bench? I would advise Deputies opposite, before they get up to answer my challenge against this reckless borrowing to look up the speeches made by Deputy MacEntee, as he was then, from these benches.

In addition to these, we are to borrow £1,500,000, two-thirds of the provision required for export bounties and subsidies in the coming year. I thought that I was familiar with Fianna Fáil speeches recently in which all this talk of the economic war had been dropped and we heard the whole thing being referred to as the national economic policy—this new policy of living on ourselves, cutting ourselves adrift, becoming independent of the foreign market. The thing is defensible though I do not agree with it. If that is the national economic policy, however, then there is no justification for borrowing in order to carry on the national economic policy. The national economic policy of this State, as well as any other State, should be met and subsidised out of revenue. not by pledging posterity or running the country into debt. If all this Fianna Fáil oratory is not so much humbug, then it is thoroughly dishonest, not only to borrow for this purpose, but to increase our borrowing. Our borrowing in this particular field in the past year was nearly one-half of the cost of the bounties and subsidies. I suppose the first flare signal of having won the economic war is that we increase our borrowing and go further into debt to celebrate our victory. Victories in some wars are bought too dearly, but this particular victory seems to be the dearest victory that any nation ever won.

We heard the Minister for Industry and Commerce noisily telling us that nobody ever questioned the fact that the land annuities were a liability on the farmer. I see one of the Deputies opposite taking notes and I wonder does he agree with that—that nobody ever questioned the fact that the land annuities were a liability on the farmer. We hear talk about turns and twists, about people doing half circles and complete circles. All I can say is that there are more acrobats in this House than one.

Would the Deputy mind making his allusions without any twist?

I did not catch what the Deputy said.

Would he mind making his allusion direct? Is he alleging that any Deputy on these benches ever stated that the land annuities were not a liability on the farmer?

If the Deputy is fishing for compliments he is going to get very few from me. If he wants me to read the Cork local Press for him, I have not the time. If he wants me to refresh his mind on his own speeches, I have not the time, neither do I think it is worth while.

If the Deputy makes an allusion of that description, as far as I am concerned the statement is not true.

Might I ask what particular statement is contradicted?

Deputy Corry can make his speech afterwards. Deputy O'Higgins is making his speech and we shall hear him.

We have heard a lecture from the Minister for Industry and Commerce aimed at Deputy Cosgrave. We heard him warning Deputy Cosgrave against remarks which interfered with the credit of the country. We heard that cheap glib-tongued lecture. When the Minister was speaking I had a distinct recollection of speech made by him when this country was floating a loan and when he told his audience, and through the Press told the world, that the Irish Free State was going headlong to the bog of bankruptcy, that the financial outlook of the Irish Free State was as black as night. I wonder did Deputy Cosgrave, either as President or as a Deputy in Opposition, ever make as foul an attempt to interfere with a loan or with the national credit of the country as that particular Minister did when he was a Deputy in Opposition? If we are to be lectured on regard and respect for this country's credit, let us be lectured by those who did not spend ten years trying to tear it down. It would be well for the people opposite to realise and recognise that if this country is in a sound financial position to-day, if there is £38,000,000 a year to be sucked out of the people, and the people are still able to survive it, that fact alone is the greatest tribute to the men who built up this country through ten hard back-breaking years when too many people were trying to tear it down and discredit it. The prosperity even which is claimed under the Budget to-day is the greatest tribute that could be paid to Deputy Cosgrave and his administration as President of the Executive. The golden eggs are there and the golden eggs are being dissipated.

And the annuities are here.

Yes, and the bounties and the subsidies are there in order to help cattle over the Border to pay the annuities to Mr. J.H. Thomas. Let us have honesty. If you are going to withhold those annuities, and if it is good policy to withhold them, why tax anyone in this country to send out more produce to pay more annuities to Great Britain? If you are going to pay your debt, is it not more manly to pay it like a proud man, to slap it on the counter and pay it, than to have it beaten out of the seat of your trousers by the other fellow?

If you owed it.

Is that how the 1923 agreement was signed?

If the Minister was taking as much interest in this building in 1923 as he is now we would be able to pay £50,000,000 per year.

It might never have been signed.

This was the home of renegades and national apostates and traitors according to the Minister. That was his line in 1923. That was his line when the finances of this country were being built up. That was his line when the trade of this country was being built up, when we were putting this country in a position to be able to afford the recklessness of a Fianna Fáil Government. I take this Budget as being a candid confession by the Minister for Finance and all his colleagues that all their talk up and down this country for ten years was only so much cant and humbug. When the Estimates of this House were being criticised, we were told that we were basing our administration on a vast imperial model, we were told that this country could not afford the taxation that existed in 1930, that we had got to cut down, to economise, to reduce the size and cost of all services. This is the third Budget of Fianna Fáil, and it is a clear confession that all that was dishonest, that it was so much cant, that it was never meant, that it merely represented so many phrases to catch the votes of so many fools. We have now a Budget in which the expenditure is up by 25 per cent. We are not aping the imperial model now, but a kind of world model, as if our services were intended not only for an empire but for the whole world.

We are subsidising industries.

The only industry you are subsidising in this Budget is Mr. J.H. Thomas' industry in collecting your annuities. There is £1,700,000 for that. You are subsidising the export of agricultural produce to facilitate the man with whom you are supposed to be at war.

What about housing?

Let us be honest about this. If it is un-national to pay these annuities, it is still more un-national to subsidise the people who are paying them. Last year £448,000 was taken off the agricultural grant in order, we were told at the time, to meet unemployment insurance, which was to be paid from the 1st January. The £448,000 was retained. The £450,000 for unemployment insurance was not spent. You take in £500,000 and you retain another £500,000 which is budgeted for. By this kind of quick trick you arrive at a thing that is called a "surplus." If I take in money to pay a debt and do not pay the debt. I can very easily work out a weekly or a yearly surplus so long as the people with whom I do business stand for that kind of trickery. There is another matter on which I should like to hear the Minister's observations. In arriving at this particular figure in the White Paper, we have the sum of £1,190,000 reckoned as being a reasonable allowance for over-estimation in the year's finances. I take it that, normally, over-estimation is the characteristic or hallmark of inexperience, that every Government, with each year's experience, is responsible for less and less over-estimation. The late Government had over-estimated by a high percentage in its early days. Year by year, with experience and knowledge of their Departments, the figure for over-estimation was reduced, until, towards the end, it was a matter of some tens of thousands of pounds. I should imagine that, as one year followed another, any Government would get to know the Departments of State better, would be more familiar with the work, more conversant with the various services and would naturally reduce the amount of over-estimation. Last year, the over-estimation of this Government was £600,000. With another year's experience, anybody would expect a reduction in that figure. Yet, with another year's experience, with an extra year's knowledge by the Ministers of their Departments, we have the figure for over-estimation doubled. We have the sum of £1,200,000 representing over-estimation in the present year. By that doubling of the calculation for over-estimation, we have arrived at a surplus of £2,000.

I do not think that the Minister, either in his statement or in his figures, was perfectly honest with the House or with the country. If we are to accept his figures as straightforward, what is the position? That, in order to maintain existing services, we borrow £7,000,000. At the end of this year, we either cut down these services by £7,000,000, increase taxation by £7,000,000 or plunge the country into a further debt of £7,000,000. Is a country whose normal expenditure is based on a borrowing each year of £7,000,000 in a healthy state? Last year we borrowed £6,000,000. This year we borrow £7,000,000. We have gone £13,000,000 into debt in two years of Fianna Fáil administration. At the end of this year we shall be saddled with a capital liability for that £13,000,000, with the interest on the £13,000,000 and with the necessity for either reducing services for the coming year by £7,000,000 or borrowing another sum of £7,000,000. I do not think that this Budget shows anything on which the Minister can be congratulated, beyond his capacity to juggle with figures, to brazen out things that are not in accordance with the facts and his capacity to repudiate every single speech he made from this bench when he was in Opposition. If all the statements he made from this bench were unjust, unfair, bad finance and bad national policy, surely he can find enough generosity in his heart to congratulate those who are here now but who were over there then, for having failed to listen to his advice, for having carried on in spite of the advice he gave. In face of this huge load of taxation, with the cost of every service increasing, with the country faced with a £38,000,000 Budget and the prospect of borrowing £7,000,000 to carry on, surely the Minister can, at least, congratulate those who left this country in such a sound financial position that all these reckless experiments and all this reckless expenditure are possible.

I must apologise to the House for my hoarseness. I would not have attempted to speak on the Budget to-day but for the reckless and incompetent speech of the Minister for Industry and Commerce. The idea of this business man from Capel Street dogmatising on the condition of agriculture in this country at the present time, adds insult to injury, to the majority of the people. I would like to hear any Deputy in the Minister's Party saying that he would have the audacity to stand before any representatives of agriculture to repeat his impertinent words. In opening, the Minister thought he had found a mare's nest in his reference to my advocacy of a national currency. I have always advocated a national currency, to-day as much as ever, regardless of what the private opinions of any members of my Party may be on the matter. But this Party never went out before the public stating that if elected they would set up a national currency. I remember being on a platform with the Minister on one occasion and I thought he would explode when expounding the doctrine and the benefits of a national currency. Five years ago I thought he would explode in Monaghan, in the presence as he then was of Deputy de Valera —now President de Valera—when criticising his principles of a couple of years before, as if he ever had any principles upon currency. As a previous speaker said, the Minister for Industry and Commerce made his usual propaganda bouncing speech, without any regard to the subject matter he pretended to speak about. The Minister went into agricultural prices, stating that white oats were dearer this year than last year; that potatoes are dearer; that fat lambs are dearer; that pork is dearer, and that black oats are dearer. There is some variation in the prices but, of course, anyone who understood the subject the Minister was dealing with, would not have trotted out these prices in a debate of this kind. If he knew the subject at all, the Minister would know that the prices obtaining for potatoes last year, at the period he took, were the prices for the 1932 crop, and he would have known that the blight of a change of Government, on the prices of 1932, followed that crop until it was consumed. As to the price of fat lambs, he would know that the "stick" the people got from the production of fat lambs in 1932 and 1933 made them review their position and, to keep far less breeding ewes this season than in previous seasons. In connection with oats he would know that oats was never as cheap as in the beginning of the marketing of the 1933 crop. It had to be cashed in order to get some money on the farm. The Minister wonders why that is true. Of course that is an exhibition of his ignorance.

I notice that the Minister for Agriculture is seldom seen in this House, except when he wants to get the formal authority of the House for a bit of money. The other Ministers will always shout about agriculture, but the Minister for Agriculture has so little to say that he is seldom seen here. Other Minister swell their chests, feeling perhaps, in their ignorance of the subject with which they are dealing, that that will excuse them. The Minister for Industry and Commerce, of course, ran away before he could hear his silly, nonsensical and contemptible speech on such an important matter criticised. He is not aware that in December of last year, when the British Government, took stock of the situation created by the Special Duties imposed by them on our produce going to Great Britain, they saw that if these Special Duties were left in operation, and if we continued to export at the rate we were exporting, by March 31st they would have collected, perhaps, £2,000,000 more than they wanted to collect. Our Government, including the Minister for Industry and Commerce, and the Minister for Agriculture, shouted that the measures then taken by the British Government, to prevent them getting more under the Special Duties than they wanted, was an indication of a new orientation in British agricultural policy. We find that the British then established a quota system, meaning thereby that for the months of January, February and March of this year the numbers of livestock admitted to England would be considerably reduced, in the case of fat cattle by 50 per cent. I dare say the Minister for Industry and Commerce has a hazy notion that crushed oats is part of the daily ration for stall-fed cattle. If he is not aware of it, I am informing him now, and his farmer colleague, and also the Minister for Finance. They can take it from me that it is true that crushed oats is used for the stall feeding of cattle, and is a good ration mixed with other rations. Crushed oats can be composed of either white oats or black oats. I want to explain those things in detail for fear the Minister might think that crushed oats was a certain strain or variety of oats that was grown or produced in a crushed state. It is nothing of the sort; it is oats crushed in the customary fashion between two stones.

With a quota system operating against our export of fat cattle to Britain during the three months of the year that counted—January, February and March—we have been left with, perhaps, 30,000 stall-feds on our hands. For these 30,000 cattle there was no market. When the bolt fell on the stall feeders it was in the middle of winter. Some of their cattle were fat, some half fat, some three-quarters fat and so on all down the line from good condition to the finished article. But as hope springs eternal in the human breast, every feeder thought that he would not be the man who would be left out in the cold, that he would get a licence to export his cattle. The farmers carried their fat stock on. Those fat stock had to be fed. Consequently, the stall feeder, though he had finished the article, having no market for it, had to hold on. The weather being cold he could not let these cattle out on the pastures to waste because if he did he would find that cattle coming out of hot stalls would die on the grass of pneumonia.

This is all Greek to the Minister who has gone out, and I do not think it is anything less Greek to the Minister who has come in. However, in this school of languages we will have to proceed. If our Minister cannot understand it, it is not our fault. It is their misfortune. The price of oats, of course, had to go up because of this. The price of oats had to go up because the people who were carrying stock which they could not sell had to buy feeding stuffs to feed the stock that was quite ready for sale but which because of the policy of the Government they could not sell. White oats went up too.

The limited amount of potatoes grown in 1933, as compared with 1932, has had this effect, that prices of potatoes are going up now. But that is not the greatest and the most serious indication of the price of potatoes. The most serious indication of the price of potatoes is this, that the people to-day under the present Administration, at a time when Budgets can be balanced by a magic wave of the hand, are now reduced to three meals of potatoes a day. These are the people who before the advent into power of this Government were able to buy white bread and meat. Of course, an increased demand for an article increases the price. When the demand increases the price increases also. This too has happened during a time when the area under potatoes diminished. Of course this is only hearsay to the Ministers opposite, but I can quote from experience. In 1932, I grew 65 acres of potatoes; last year I grew 18 acres; this year I am growing less and if we are unfortunate enough to be cursed with the present Government for another year I will grow none next year. Still, I will grow as much as the Minister who is sitting opposite me.

You will only grow what will do your own family.

It will be a wise man who will come to that. I am afraid the Deputy does not grow enough to sustain his own family, neither does the Minister sitting under him. I know what I am taking about and the Deputy does not. The Minister for Industry and Commerce went on to other flights. He reminded me of the German airman who went up last Saturday to the stratosphere, where he was lost. The Minister for Industry and Commerce soared up to dizzy heights, reckoning percentages of prices and commodities in 1929, and the present time. On the relation of these prices the Minister did not know where he was. He has not come down yet from those dizzy heights any more than the German airman has come down. He said the average reduction in gold prices, from 1929 to 1934, was 30 per cent. Our prices here in 1929 were, speaking from memory, at least 20 points greater than to-day. That 20 points reduction I am taking as a world reduction. A further reduction of that price level will have to be reckoned consequent on the artificial reduction produced by the economic war, including, for the moment, the lowering of the price level consequent on the economic war. The Minister for Industry and Commerce thought he was away with it as he usually thinks he is away with this slick trickery. He said that our prices roughly corresponded with that reduction of 30 per cent. But in 1929 we had gold prices. To-day we have sterling prices, and sterling on the international money exchange is only about 12/6 in gold. Let the Minister go and reduce that to the proper price level. He claims to be good at arithmetic. I give him that to do. I am not going to do it for him.

Then the Minister talked about secret agreements. He talked about paying money to England. He talked about £5,000,000 being paid to England, and he talked about members of this Party cheering if anything went wrong with his industrial policy. But the Minister took very good care not to mention who cheered. Nobody in this Party would cheer if the industrial policy of the Minister did go wrong. And if they did cheer they would not be wanted in this Party. But the Minister went further and he tried to castigate Deputy MacDermot, who mentioned something about currency, who expressed some fear that the present Government would move into the realms of currency and do something with the currency. I certainly do not share Deputy MacDermot's fear. I will not put it any stronger than that. The Minister for Industry and Commerce said that the great fault I had to find with the Fianna Fáil Party was that they did not move quickly enough in that direction; in fact, that they did not move at all in that direction. But the Minister forgot that his Party went before the public and promised that if returned to office they would establish a State bank that would control our own currency. That promise is seven years old. There are some Deputies opposite who will remember that when they repudiated that promise it was on that rock I broke with them.

Are you in favour of a State bank?

When the proper time comes I will answer that. The Deputy never heard me saying anything against a central bank.

I did not.

And he never will. He and his Party promised the country that if they got into power they would establish a State bank. They did not do that and I think they have something to examine their consciences for. The Minister spoke about the services they propose to give as a result of this Budget. He said "our Government" would not pay the £5,000,000 to Britain. He took very good care to say "our Government"; he did not say "our country". The Government should be the servant of the country, not the country the servant of the Government. The country should certainly not be the slave of the Government. I challenge any Deputy or Minister on the Government Benches to say that we are not paying to England the last penny of England's claim. If they say that we are not, then Mr. Neville Chamberlain, the Chancellor of the British Exchequer, was fooling the British people when he told them that the last penny that the British taxpayer was losing by the default of the Irish Free State had been collected from the Free State up to the end of the last financial year, 31st March, 1934. We know there was a surplus, but we need not go into that. They collected 100 per cent. of their claim.

Last year we had the Minister for Defence piloting a Land Bill through the House which provided for a land tax equivalent to 50 per cent. of the original land annuities and we know that he is behind a movement to loot the farmers of this country and to make them pay that land tax in the name of land annuities. He and the Minister for Industry and Commerce are among the loudest-tongued orators on the Government Benches slandering the people of this country in this fashion, that ratepayers are conspiring not to pay rates, not to pay land annuities. Never since the reign of Cromwell in this country has such callous tyranny been perpetrated by any Government, native or foreign, than is being perpetrated at the present time and the Minister for Defence, who is now sitting opposite me, is the chief instrument in that. He has his police at the moment watching the 16 yearlings from Clonmel that they have looted from the farmers of Killenaule. For what? An arrear of an annuity to help the Minister for Finance to balance his Budget. The Chancellor of the British Exchequer has told the world that he has already collected that annuity. No amount of cajolery will alter that position. The members of the special branch of the Guards may be sent by the Minister to buy these and other cattle. Smugglers may be requisitioned from Jonesboro' in South Armagh to smuggle them across the Border. But let the Government remember that they are not foreigners administering a crown colony. They have not power gained by the sword or the gun. They are vested with power, given them by the votes of the people, to govern this country in the best interests of the people of this country. But their time will come, and well they know it, because their number is up.

I am sorry the Minister for Industry and Commerce is not here. I had hopes that he had punch enough and go enough and would take a sufficient breadth of view to put over a sound industrial policy. I personally agree with the ideas underlying his policy. But there are times and ways of doing everything and if I criticise the Minister's industrial policy I must not be taken as being opposed to that policy, but as being opposed to the time chosen and the conditions under which he chooses to put that policy over on the country.

It would need only a fairly small elementary knowledge of economics to know that to develop industry in an agricultural country you must have capital, and you must have a market. Your market must, of necessity, be your internal market. If you are able to get in right away to the external markets, then you would not want any protection at all. The fact that you want protection for your industries at once admits that you are going to produce for the internal market. Then the purchasing power of your people, within the boundary of your own country, is your greatest concern. These were factors that must have been present to the mind of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, and the Government in general when they set about their policy of the industrialisation of this country. They wanted capital. Where could they go for that in an agricultural country. They could only go to the profits and the savings and the reserves built up through agricultural industry. Where was the market to be found? Among the agricultural population. The most essential condition that the Minister for Industry and Commerce should have seen to was the health, the wealth and the state of agriculture. The purchasing power of agriculture was to be his market. In fact, the Department of the Minister for Industry and Commerce should have been more interested, and concerned, for the wellbeing of agriculture than the Minister for Agriculture himself. What did he do? He forgot all about agriculture. Someone came to him and said; "I will employ a few hands if I can get a trade loan and a tariff." When that man got a trade loan and a tariff he set about producing. A tariff of 25 per cent. is not a lot. It means 25/- for an article that agriculturists had been buying for £1. Let us assume that 25/- is sufficient to protect the home market, and let us say the result, and the margin left was about 1/-. But most agriculturists had to pay 4/- in the £ more on all they had to buy; it amounted to a tax of 4/- in the £ on agriculture.

The Minister reminded us how simple it was to do these things if we knew a little arithmetic. I return the compliment to the Minister, and ask him to do a little bit of arithmetic upon that. That was one tax. Then, at that stage, there was depression in agriculture which every country in the world had to face, owing to the phenomenal depression that fell upon agriculture all over the world. Even the greatest economic financiers all saw it, but none of them could give a satisfactory explanation that would be accepted by all others as to why it was so. But the fact is that it was there—the greatest depression in agriculture ever known. And that was the time chosen by the present Government to build up our Industries and to put a further tax upon agriculture. Not only did they do that, but that was the time chosen also to throw down a challenge to England about these £5,000,000. I do not want to go as far into that as the Minister for Industry and Commerce did, when he talked about secret agreements and things of that kind. I do not go into that, but the fact that it was proposed to pay the annuities to England was enshrined in Section 12 of the Land Act of 1923. The refusal to pay the annuities inevitably produced the economic war. What was the effect? Not only did England set about seizing our goods when landed in Britain, to recoup themselves for the £5,000,000 withheld, but they did another thing that had a very serious effect.

About half our produce is consumed at home. Now when a tariff, in the shape of special duties, was put upon our produce going into England, and these special duties did not in any way restrict the volume and quantity of the stuff we sent over, then obviously the English people paid none of these tariffs. We paid them all, because when the volume did not increase or diminish, the special duties had no effect upon the price. Therefore, we had to suffer a loss in price, which was another handicap on our agriculture in Great Britain! Still, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, and the Government, pursued their industrial policy of drawing from agriculture, at a time of general world depression, the resources of its capital and put a burden of at least 4/- in the £ upon agriculture during that depression. Four shillings in the £ was put on everything that agriculture had to buy, and then they undertook this industrial development at a time when the trouble with England caused a fall in the prices of our general agricultural stuff, not only in Great Britain, but here as well. The general price level of agricultural produce here has been reduced by the economic war to between 30 and 40 per cent., and no compensation for it. And then, because the tariffs imposed by the Minister produced a certain revenue, we are told we have prosperity. In passing away from that, I want again to repeat that I am not against the industrial policy of the Minister, but I point out that he started it at a time when that policy must ultimately result in failure, because the agricultural industry that it was raised on will not be able to bear the strain. Agriculture, which must provide the market for our industrial products, will not have the purchasing power to buy them. Therefore, we are on the point of collapse from that.

In this Budget a further tax is to be imposed by way, we are told, of a benefit for agriculture. We are going to have £102,000 borrowed to set up a plant for the production of industrial alcohol. The production of industrial alcohol from potatoes has been the subject of the closest investigation, particularly by the British Inland Revenue authorities over the last forty years. The results of these investigations have not commended themselves to the British Government, but we are going to borrow £102,000 for the purpose of carrying out experiments in that field. My idea is that an individual or a Government should only borrow for something that, invested in production, will, over a period of years, pay for itself, but here we are going to borrow this big sum to carry out experiments, while we have evidence that the experiments carried out in the same field by other countries show that such an industry is not at all likely to be profitable.

We have also committed ourselves to the building of three beet factories. The Minister for Finance, when introducing the Sugar Bill, admitted that these concerns will be run at a loss. A short time ago the Minister for Industry and Commerce thumped the desk as he told the House of the progress that had been made by the present Government in housing. He said that the Government were going to borrow this year the sum of £4,200,000 for housing. How is that going to work out? That sum of money is going to be dumped out through the country to house people engaged in an industry that is not paying. If the Minister for Industry and Commerce had troubled himself to go even below the surface to consider the causes of the American collapse, he would know that it was due, largely, to a mad ramp in house building in 1929. This preceded the economic collapse in the United States. This sum of £4,200,000 is to be loaned largely to the local authorities in rural areas: county councils and boards of health. The City of Dublin refused to take any of it. It was offered to the Dublin Corporation at 5½ per cent. They would not take it at that price. They entered into arrangements for borrowing themselves for the purpose of house building in the city.

I should like to point out that the houses built by local authorities out of this loan will not be the sole security for our Government. The real security will be the local authorities' central fund: in other words, the ratepayers within the area of that local authority. When we follow the thing to its end we find that the local authority depends for its revenue on the payment of agricultural rates, and the ability of agriculture to pay rates depends on the prosperity of agriculture. We have it admitted that we are in the trough of the greatest agricultural depression in history, and in spite of that we are rearing an industrial organisation which is putting an extra burden of in or about 24 per cent. on agriculture. On top of all that we have the British imposing duties, which are lowering, by anything from 30 per cent. upwards, the general price level of agricultural produce—our agricultural produce both in the Irish market and in the British market. Boiled down, the effect of these special duties imposed by the British is this: that the British sheriff, so to speak, is standing at the British ports seizing £5,000,000 worth of the stuff that we send over there. What does President de Valera say on that? That it is no concern of ours: no concern of the Government here what duties are imposed by an outside Government or what an outside Government seizes on the farmers of this country. His attitude is: we must get the annuities. We have had that statement from the President within the last week over the signature of his private secretary. He says "we must get the annuities," even though the British have got them. What does he want the annuities for? The fiction of a balanced Budget. That is really what it is. He is raking in the money to pay the £5,000,000 to England, but he is not paying it. The agricultural community have to pay it. The President says: "It is nothing to our Government what the British seize on agriculture; agriculture must pay us and thank us because we reduced the annuities by 50 per cent." Surely, if a Government is going to be of any use to its people it should protect its citizens. Is our Government going to sit quietly still while an outside Government—to quote the President— is seizing on our property to the extent of £5,000,000, and our inside Government, through the Minister for Justice opposite, is sending out the Guards to loot the farmers for the very debt that the President admits the outside Government has collected? That loot is protected by the Guards. Of course, the Minister will use a nice phrase and say that there is a conspiracy not to pay rates and annuities.

The question of balancing the Budget by loan was dealt with by the last speaker. I am not going into it, because it is quite a simple matter, as he said, to balance a Budget, quite easy for any man to pay his debts if he can make the other fellow pay, and it is quite easy to balance the Budget for this year if the Minister can borrow money and mortgage posterity after having dissipated the savings of the past. It is quite easy to mortgage the future then by more borrowing. I should like to impress one thing on the Minister and on the Government. I know a little of what I am talking about. I have been over the country a good deal. I know that the only industry on which a State structure can be reared in this country is on the point of collapse. No fictitious balancing of Budgets like this can obliterate what the people are seeing before their eyes in the shape of calf skins. There is one small item that was worth £3 a unit three years ago that is worth nothing to-day. No paper-balanced Budget can obliterate that fact, and the Government should think, and think seriously about that. Agriculture is an industry—a key industry—that keeps up the whole superstructure of the State. Do not be looking at a little apartment of the superstructure overhead, or at the balance sheet of a little factory that is set up here, first of all, out of the savings of agriculture, and secondly, tariffed at the expense of agriculture in order to keep out foreign competition, which, I may remark, I agree with, and then, looking to agriculture, that has to pay its commitments at least twice, to buy the produce of that industry. The thing cannot last. Every Deputy opposite knows that as well as we do, but they will not say it. They try to look for an excuse to counter the straightforward arguments and statements of facts that we put up. They want to counter them by some debating point, but they cannot get away from the price level of produce in this country. They cannot get away from the wages paid by the primary industry in this country. It is quite easy for a protected industry —although some say that they do not pay good wages—to pay high wages if they get a sufficiently high tariff to give them a margin of profit sufficient to enable them to pay high wages; but try to find the agricultural worker that has the same wages to-day as he had two, three and four years ago. He is not to be found in this country, and that is the beast of burden that must carry the whole State, and that must, in the last analysis, balance this Budget.

To suggest that a Budget can be balanced and that industry can be developed in the present condition of agriculture, and to suggest further that the little bit of a gap that we cannot make up on this sheet of paper will be made up by borrowing £7,000,000 should not be done lightly by any Minister. I do not envy the Minister his job in doing it, and he is taking a terrible risk, not to speak of the responsibility, in telling us in his flamboyant language—I forget the picturesque phrase he used last year— that all is well with the finances of this country. Oh, yes, I remember now. The phrase he used last year was that the finances of this country were buoyant. I do not want to criticise the Minister in a negative kind of way, but if he thought then that the finances of this country were buoyant, should he not have learned a lesson when he floated a loan of £6,000,000 on the market and did not have it subscribed? I do not object to the Minister or to anybody else, when he is making his case, trying to present the case as best he can. We would all try to do that, but it was not fair for the Minister to interject, by way of apology as it might be read, or by way of a boast, that the present Government floated a loan at very advantageous terms to the Exchequer—3½ per cent. issued at 98. He compared that with the terms offered in previous loans. I think that the one before that was 4½ or 5 per cent. at 93. I want to say this about that comparison. When the second last loan was floated the price at which it was offered was the rate of interest ruling in London—4½ per cent. The bank rate of interest when this loan, that flopped, was floated— this loan that the Minister stated was issued at very advantageous terms to the Exchequer, namely, 3½ per cent.— the bank rate of interest then and since in London was and is 2 per cent. So that, the position is far worse than it seems to be at first sight. Not only was the money not subscribed by the public, but the money was issued at 1½ per cent. above the London bank rate that obtained then and that has obtained since. The fact that that bank rate still obtains at that low level of 2 per cent. shows that there must be plenty of money about to keep down that bank rate. Therefore, the fact that this loan was not subscribed by the public even at 3½ per cent., 1½ per cent. above the bank rate, was not due to any shortage of money available in the money market but to the fact that investors kept shy of the investment offered, so that it is not for the Minister for Finance, who went out to sell his loan, to say that the terms are the most attractive ever offered by the Ministry. The public who are going to buy that loan are the best judges of that and they would not buy it at that price, whereas the previous loan which the Minister criticises was bought by the purchasing public at the rates offered.

He proposes to balance his Budget this coming year by borrowing £7,000,000. Is he sure he will get it? He did not get the last one and if he gets it, what terms must he offer? He can get it at the Jewman's rate of interest. There is no trouble in getting it that way. He can get it at 50 per cent., but has he any hope of getting it at a marketable rate of interest? In conclusion, the Minister's speech and what his supporters call an excellent Budget remind me of the story of the old fellow who was dying and who got in a solicitor to draft his will. The old fellow began leaving £1,000 to this person and to that person—I do not know whether he willed £1,000 to the Fianna Fáil funds or not—and the solicitor looked at him in amazement. He said to him: "You have not got all that money," and the old fellow said: "I am only telling you what I would do with the money if I had it," and hence, we have pensions for widows and orphans, if the Minister only had the money, but he has to get it yet.

I was very glad, indeed when I heard Deputy Belton make use of the two words "in conclusion." He has occupied the time of this House for more than an hour. He usually contributes something like that to any debate in which he participates, but unfortunately, on this occasion, he does not seem to have devoted as much time and attention to pointing out the errors in this Budget which I expected him to point out. After all, what is wrong with it? What is the matter with this Budget? What is wrong with a Budget that does what the Minister for Finance wants done? Is Deputy Belton opposed to pensions for the old I.R.A.? Is he opposed to pensions for widows and orphans? Is he opposed to the £1,186,000 which will be devoted to unemployment insurance etc., to prevent people becoming destitute and to see that they will get the necessaries of life? Is he opposed to the £500,000 extra provided for relief works?

On top of that, it struck me from his speech that Deputy Belton seemed to have a slight hostility to the huge grant that is being made for housing, of £4,500,000, because he said that he could not see much advantage in building houses for people who are engaged in an industry that was rapidly dying. After all, the people have to get houses. They have got to get shelter. They have got to get food, and we are trying to give them cheaper food. They have got to get clothing. The ultimate end of our whole policy for which we asked a mandate at the last general election is that this country would supply all its essentials of life itself and never again depend on the foreigner. That is what we went out for, and we got the people's consent. We got a mandate from the people to carry through that policy, and this is one of the instalments in carrying through that policy.

I heard again the good old hardy annual trotted out from the very commencement of the debate. Deputy Cosgrave was first with it; after him came Deputy Professor O'Sullivan, and then Deputy Dr. O'Higgins. Of course, being one of the leaders of the Party, Deputy Belton also contributed on the same lines, and I think he is entitled to a little more respect than the rest, because possibly he knows a little more about this subject of land annuities than most of the others. Deputy Cosgrave said that we could not look on them as an asset at all; Deputy Belton says we are still paying them, and somebody else says something else. Deputy Dr. O'Higgins said that it would be far manlier, far more courageous, and far more honourable to come out into the open and pay them as a just and honourable debt to England and have no more about them. It is interesting to read the first step taken on this question of the land annuities in the Dáil years ago. In September, 1920—I do not know if Deputy Belton ever read this, and I question very much if any Deputy on the Opposition Benches, with the possible exception of Deputy Mulcahy, ever read it——

What is the reference?

The reference is an official quotation dealing with the land annuities from a report passed by the Second Dáil at its session on 17th September, 1920. I will read it for the Deputy. It is on page 219. Deputies will remember that during the time of the Black and Tan war, on the motion of the late Mr. Kevin O'Higgins, a Commission was set up to determine the relations between the public boards of this country and the British Department of Local Government. A time limit was placed on their deliberations, and at the end of two months they submitted a report to the Dáil of that time. I am sure that Deputy Mulcahy will remember this report, and I would advise Deputy Belton always to remember clause 5 of it when he speaks, whether in Listowel, Ballybunion, Dublin, Kilkenny or whatever place he may hie to this week-end.

Or Maryborough.

Or Maryborough. This report was accepted unanimously by the Dáil, of which Deputy Mulcahy was a member, and clause 5 of that report stated—

"that the deficits in the accounts of local bodies after making allowances for economies set out above"—

there were certain economies suggested in the report—

"be made by diverting land annuities and income tax from the British Government to the Exchequer of the Dáil."

Do you know who proposed the adoption of that report? It was carried unanimously—there was not a solitary voice raised against it; it was not embezzlement then. It was proposed for adoption by the Secretary for Local Government, who was no other than Deputy Cosgrave at the time.

Read the Minister for Agriculture on the same subject.

I will read the Deputy anything he pleases on the same subject. It might be well not to read some of the remarks at that time because it strikes me that they were trying to outdo one another in patriotic action then. What was patriotic then is embezzlement now. The one fact that I would ask Deputy Mulcahy to remember is that the Dáil passed that report unanimously, containing clause 5, which I have read to the House. That is my quotation.

Are the Deputies on that side using the moneys now for the relief of the local ratepayers?

I did not quite catch what the Deputy asked.

The Deputy argues now that they are carrying out a traditional policy in the holding back of those moneys from the British.

Is the Deputy's Party using those moneys for the relief of the ratepayers in the country at the present moment?

Yes—for the relief of agriculture.

Undoubtedly.

Ask the agriculturists.

At any time during the course of his speech will the Deputy indicate where that relief was given? He can do it now or at any time he likes.

It is useless for Deputy Mulcahy or Deputy Belton or anyone else to try to sidetrack me from the important fact which I have just road out, that in September 1919 Deputy Cosgrave moved in the Dáil that the land annuities be withheld from the British, and the motion was accepted. It was not embezzlement then. We went to the country at the last general election, and put it in the forefront of our programme that we would continue to keep the land annuities at home. We made that promise to the people, and we have kept that promise. We made several other promises to them. I defy any Deputy on the opposite benches, even those with such an analytical eye as Deputy Belton himself, to go through the manifesto issued by Fianna Fáil at the last general election and to point out any of their promises that has not been kept. Deputy Belton kicked up a little bit of a shindy this afternoon about one of the Ministers—I think it was the Minister for Industry and Commerce—having said that they were out against the loan. Deputy Belton wanted that particularised. He seemed to be pretty angry because a suggestion as to lack of co-operation was made against Deputies on those benches at the time the last loan was floated. He seemed a little bit annoyed about that. When harping on the land annuity question he threw across the floor a general gibe about our reduction of 50 per cent. in the land annuities. Does Deputy Belton remember that, just about three days before the last general election, Cumann na nGaedheal—as it was then, before it died or committed suicide or whatever happened to it—knew they were beaten, and of course, as happens in all military warfare before a retreat commences, and I suppose the same thing applies in political warfare, a hurried meeting was summoned in Dublin. Deputy Cosgrave went down to Naas. Naas is a town of fatalities for the Opposition at all times. He went down there, and made an offer to the farmers of Ireland that they would reduce the annuities by 50 per cent. This was an effort to try to retrieve the forlorn hope on which he saw that he was engaged. His advisers told him in Dublin "unless you make some offer to the agricultural community you are beaten in this election." That offer was made in the town of Naas, at I think the last meeting addressed by Deputy Cosgrave during the general election—"if you return us to power we will reduce the annuities by half." According to them the English were entitled to get the entire land annuities that were due at that time, but Deputy Cosgrave never from that time to this—nor I think did any of the members on the Front Bench opposite —enlightened the public as to how the deficit of 50 per cent. would be made up, or from what source of taxation it would come. They got the wind up, if I may use a slang phrase, and in the hope of bolstering up their movements, bolstering up their candidates and putting something to the people that the people might accept they came along with that offer of a reduction of 50 per cent. Times have changed now. We have Deputy Belton actually sneering at the fact that that was put in operation.

Might I explain? That offer of a reduction of 50 per cent. was not intended to operate at a time when the British were otherwise getting 100 per cent., as they are getting now. It was not intended that the Minister for Justice—I nearly said the Minister for Injustice, but I will not—should extract 50 per cent. from the farmers while Mr. Chamberlain says he is collecting 100 per cent and more. Now develop that point.

We will give you some of it on the rhubarb.

I want none.

The Deputy's interruption is so childish that I do not think it is worth while replying.

It is so awkward, you mean.

Will the Deputy tell me this?

If I can.

Will the Deputy oblige me by saying if the economic war was on at the time of the last general election?

Did we get any vote by false pretences? Did not President de Valera point to all the inconveniences and the hard uphill fight which would be the result of the economic war? Did we not put all our cards on the table?

Did we not say "this means a fight"? Is not that the way the phrase came about that the farmers would have to go into the front line trenches if we were to win the economic war. There is another little bit of advice which I should like to give to Deputy Belton when he is speaking on this matter. There is a little pamphlet published by a former leader of his—perhaps not a former leader, but a close associate and personal friend—Arthur Griffith. Get that pamphlet, "Ireland's Economic Salvation," and read what he says about Irish agriculture. Get it, and read the particular chapter which deals with the agricultural industry. No country, he said and always maintained could ever hope to survive unless both arms of that nation were developed. The agricultural and industrial arms were the arms he referred to.

Deputy Belton rose.

This is not a dialogue. The Deputy must be allowed to make his own speech, and not the speech the Opposition would like him to make.

I thought he was giving way, A Chinn Comhairle.

Even so, the Chair cannot allow a dialogue.

I will give way to Deputy Belton with a heart and a half any time he has a pertinent remark to make.

Pertinent?

Or relevant. I will give way to him then. I am not greedy in this respect. Any Deputy of this House, if he carefully follows the speeches of Deputy Belton, will not require to come into this House with notes; he will get fodder enough from Deputy Belton's speeches. He talks about the people not being able to pay their rates.

On a point of correction. A Chinn Comhairle, I said nothing about the people not being able to pay their rates. Anything I said about it would be to this effect: The people have paid their rates and should not be asked to pay them again.

If they have paid their rates I wonder why we have statements like what appeared in the paper the other day. What is the position in every county where there are small tillage farmers? Take Mayo for instance. How is it that they have a clean state and no outstanding rates? How is it that when you come to Kilkenny, where there are farmers with four or five hundred acres, 50 per cent. of the rates are not paid? Of course, you have a policy not to pay rates.

What about Clare and Kerry?

And Cavan, too— your own county. Of course, you have a policy not to pay rates. Deputies opposite went around the country and told the people not to pay the annuities. The Minister for Justice read an extract from the Irish Independent the other night. Deputy Minch was sitting there when he quoted a speech which the Deputy made in Monasterevan, that while the economic war was on, and while tariffs were in existence—Deputy Minch is a very active member of the United Ireland Party at week-ends—his advice was “do not pay your land annuities.” I wonder did Deputy Belton read that speech. I wonder does he repudiate— as he does Deputy MacDermot— Deputy Minch's attitude in that respect. When you are trying to regularise those things at the meetings of your Party you should bear in mind a little proverb which is remembered in many happy homes. I think it runs “Birds in their little nests agree.” I know that when the merger came about, and this United Ireland Party came into operation, there were so many different samples of politicians, so many different types of farmers, so many different kinds of ex-military men, so many who wanted O'Duffy and so many who wanted Deputy Cosgrave. Personally, as I said down the country, I am sorry that Deputy Cosgrave has been jockeyed out of leadership of the Opposition, because you can always get something tangible from his leadership, but may the Heavens look on Ireland if the leadership ever falls to those who are jockeying him out of the position.

What about the Budget?

The Budget is all right and that is what is the matter with the Opposition. What is wrong with the Budget? There is nothing wrong with it, and the proof of that is that since the time of the General Election—you started about a month after the General Election was over—you have been telling the people of the dire ruin that would come upon the country if this Government continued in office, and it has not come. You came in here on the day the Budget was introduced, on the day the Minister for Finance made his statement and when you discovered what it contained, I never before saw such confusion in a political camp. After all you cannot take your followers on every hand with you in your opposition to the Budget. I would suggest to Deputy Belton, if he is in the South of Ireland during the coming week-end, that he should have a chat with the Mayor of Waterford, who is one of his principal supporters, and find out what are his opinions about the Budget which the Deputy is trying to condemn. Is there any harm in taking 4d. off tea? Will Deputy Belton send back to the Exchequer the money that has been taken off his income tax?

He has not paid it unfortunately.

Will he still continue to pay the old rate of income tax? I know he must be very angry at that. I know you are all very angry but we have come to the stage, at any rate, that we were able to run the country and we shall be able to run it for the next three and three-quarter years. Notwithstanding all the predictions about general elections and bye-elections, we shall run it for the next three three-quarter years and at the end of that period we shall be able to go back to the country, notwithstanding all the criticisms and, I would venture to say, we shall then get another lease of life. In the course of his remarks Deputy Belton led me to believe that he would be willing to co-operate with the Government in some ways at the moment and that certainly he was not very keen on too much opposition to the Government in some of their schemes. I was glad to hear him say that he was 100 per cent. with the Minister for Industry and Commerce in some of the work he was trying to do. That is a good argument, coming from the Opposition. I was glad to hear that and I should like if some more speeches delivered in that spirit came from the other side of the House instead of speeches trying to find fault with every activity of the Government.

The Deputy found fault with the time selected by the Minister for Industry and Commerce to put into operation schemes designed to benefit industry. There is an old saying in the country and it has been quoted very often: "Sometime, somehow, somewhere, and by someone, a beginning must be made." The beginning has been made by the Minister for Industry and Commerce. I hope that he will have co-operation, genuine co-operation and not lip-service, even from members of the Opposition, in the splendid work he is doing to build up Irish industry and to find employment for our people here at home. There is one little fly in the ointment. Deputy Belton talked about the co-operation that would be necessary from local boards—county councils, boards of health and the like. Certainly we want that co-operation but judging by the activities at the moment, judging from the speeches delivered in the country during the week-end, from the highest in the United Ireland Party down to the lowest in the ranks, I see no sign of that co-operation. What is your local government programme if you mean to co-operate with the Government? Do you intend to get people on the public boards who will make things awkward for the Department of Local Government? Do you not know that in all civilised countries, in all countries where there is a Government worth its salt, it could not tolerate for any length of time public boards, which should be the right arm of the Government, running counter to its wishes and upsetting the schemes to relieve unemployment or any other scheme which the Minister for Local Government would like to put into operation?

I have one advice to offer. I do not know whether it is relevant or not There is one advice that I would offer to Deputy Belton, Deputy Mulcahy and other responsible leaders of the Party. Your meetings are doing no good in the country at the present moment. You are doing no good to the credit of the country. You are doing no good in this sense. Your meetings put me in mind of football matches, and I shall tell you why. You get people who are enthusiasts in football and who attend the games during the week-end or on Sunday. They spend Monday and Tuesday talking about things that happened in the games on the previous Sunday and they spend the rest of the week making their preparations for the following Sunday. When schemes are put forward from this front bench with the express object of doing good for the country, what co-operation do you give? Every Sunday, every week-end, is spent at important centres all over the country trying to make things awkward for the Government. It does not matter how many appeals are made to you. It does not matter how many appeals to your commonsense are made. This campaign is continued and what satisfaction are you getting from it? The only satisfaction that you can get from it is that over in London there are British Ministers and ex-Ministers laughing to themselves, smiling with their tongues in their cheeks, with a satisfied smug smile and saying, "Look at the way the Irish are fighting and smashing one another up."

We kept the annuities at home for our own people. While the Opposition was in power there was shipped out of this country a sum of £35,000,000. We started to keep this money at home, and what did these gentlemen opposite, from whom we might have expected some help, do? We had the ex-Minister for Finance, who is now in the Seanad, going around the country and pointing out how a poll-tax could be put on cattle and all the rest of it I say to the Opposition: Get away from these tactics, adopt new lines of policy, drop this eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth policy. Think that there are men trying to build up the resources of the country agriculturally and industrially. Get your Party together to take counsel and let its members come forward with constructive criticism instead of destructive criticism. The sneer was made to-day that the back benchers on this side of the House seldom contribute to debates here. It may be that in future the rank and file of this Party will take a bigger hand in things than we have been taking in the past.

Hear, hear.

I never could conceive the whole collective ability of the United Ireland Party being able to frame any question to put across the floor of this Assembly that the humblest or the most recent recruit to Fianna Fáil could not answer. We will devote more activity, perhaps, to that in future. The rank and file will give our Ministers more time to go on with their work. Forget, I would ask you, all this work of obstruction, and you will make it much easier for beneficial legislation to pass through this House. Make reasonable speeches, waste less of the time of the House and of yourself, and you will find that you will be doing much better for the country and better for yourselves.

Deputy Donnelly has addressed himself at considerable length, as it were, to the Budget, but, like the Minister for Industry and Commerce, he has dragged a lot of things across his discussion of it which had nothing to do with the Budget but which served as very useful by-paths to enable him to get away from it. I was glad to hear the Deputy say that we are going to hear more in future from the back benches of Fianna Fáil because the fact is, as I have always said, that there is no difference in out look, politically, nationally, socially or economically, between the mass of the Party on the other side and the mass of the Party here. Here, however, we have moral courage; we can face facts and take decisions, and we have leaders who accept the responsibility and the burden of leadership. However, I am glad to hear that we are going to hear more from them. The question of the land annuities has been brought into this discussion improperly, and brought in, I suggest, for the purpose of getting away from the discussion of the Budget. If Deputy Donnelly or any other Deputy on the back benches of Fianna Fáil is going to exercise the great capacity which the Deputy says they have for answering in the simplest possible form any question that might be put to them from these benches, Deputy Cosgrave put one question to Deputies on the far side that might be the one aspect of the land annuities that might be dealt with on the Budget. He said it was very easy for Ministers to turn round and collar the land annuities, but that that did not relieve the unfortunate farmers from having to pay them. He said that the £4,000,000 odd that was being collected at the British customs border was being taken from the farmers, that they were paying their land annuities in that way, and that a debt the capital value of which was £98,000,000 when the Fianna Fáil Party took over office, had been changed by them and their policy into a debt the capital value of which was at present £112,000,000, based on the amount of money collected from the farmers and the price of money to-day. If the land annuities are to be dealt with in relation to the Budget, I should like to hear from the benches on the far side whether the front or the back benches, some comment on that—that the price of the collaring by the front bench for their Budgetary purposes of the land annuities has been to raise the capital burden on the farmers from £98,000,000 to £112,000,000.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce kept somewhat far from the Budget, but he revealed that it is almost as possible to have a difference in outlook on the Fianna Fáil Benches as it is on some of the other benches in the House. He agreed that perhaps it might be nearer to the truth to say that there was a Budgetary deficit than to say that there was a Budgetary surplus. The thing that strikes me about the Budget as presented to us, and the statements made by the Minister for Finance and others in connection with it is, where has all the money gone that the Minister has collected in the last few years? He has collected an enormous amount of money annually over the amount collected by the previous Government. In his first Budget he imposed additional taxation to the extent of about £3,950,000. That did not all materialise as additional money into his pocket, but he did take from the taxpayers in his first year £2,350,000 more than his predecessors in their last year of office. In his second year of office he took from the taxpayers £2,767,000 more than his predecessors in their last year of office. So that, in what might be called direct taxation alone, he has collected in his two years £5,000,000 more than he would have collected if he only took as much each year as his predecessors had taken. But when he takes as well his non-tax revenue, the land annuities that he collared, he has £9,000,000 odd more than the sum of tax and non-tax revenue that his predecessors would have got if their taxation was on the same basis as in their last year of office.

What every class in the community want to know is, where on earth all that money has gone. The Minister spent a lot of money by way of capital expenditure out of borrowed money. That ought to improve his ordinary tax revenue position. He told us that from last year he had what he called a truly remarkable surplus of £1,355,000. He ended up his two years of office with a truly remarkable surplus of £1,355,000, and, with the receipt in tax and non-tax revenue of nearly £10,000,000 additional, we look around and ask, is there any class in the country who can understand where that additional money has gone in the betterment of their conditions or where the surplus he talks about now is going to go in their relief this year? On a certain number of items last year alone he got nearly £2,000,000 more than he estimated for. It has been pointed out that he got £1,500,000 in customs duties more than he estimated for and that he got about £300,000 more in excise duties. The farmers, on the other hand, know that he did them out of £600,000 of bounties. He promised to pay £600,000 more in bounties than he actually paid them. He promised the local authorities to relieve them of expenditure on home assistance by coming to their aid with the Unemployment Assistance Act during the year. He has done the local authorities out of £450,000 which he estimated to expend, and he has withheld from expenditure about £200,000 on relief works. Now with an over-receipt of nearly £2,000,000, with more than £1,000,000 withheld from expenditure on these particular items, that is on bounties to the farmers, on unemployment assistance, and on relief works, he ought to have £3,000,000 somewhere or another. He says he has £1,355,000, but when he goes to distribute his reliefs he has nothing at all.

We certainly would like to hear from the Minister where all that money has gone. Deputy Corry will not tell us that it has gone to the farmers. No one in the House can tell us that it has gone to the relief of the workers, say, in the City of Dublin. If any particular class in the country has benefited from it the House would like to hear from the Minister where exactly this money has gone. He got it, or, having promised to spend it, he withheld it. He says he has a certain surplus, but he is holding that, because no class in the community is getting the benefit of any reduction in taxation. Deputy Cosgrave pointed out that, whereas the Minister pretends in his statement to give relief in taxation to a net amount of, say, £351,000, the increase in the sugar taxation at the beginning of this year, which will operate during the year, will wipe out that.

After considering the Budget from that aspect, we are driven to look a little behind it. We find that there is an enormous and, apparently, a growing burden of taxation on the people, which burden finds no place in the Budget at all. The people are paying £700,000 a year over the counters of the shops in the shape of a butter tax designed to assist the dairying industry. We are paying about £80,000 in the same way at present to assist the sugar industry. We are going to pay more. If we are to place any credence in the suggestion made with regard to the provision of assistance for the bacon industry, the people are going to pay additional taxation across the counters in respect of their bacon. These items are not charged up against the accounts of the Minister for Finance, and they are not shown in any way in the Budget. In a number of other ways, additional taxation is being placed on the people in a manner outside the sphere of ordinary public finance. All this at a time when, as has been argued very pointedly and very clearly this evening, production is growing less and less. No matter what the Minister for Industry and Commerce may say with regard to the improvement of agricultural prices, there is not a county in which the farming industry is not being more and more heavily hit. There is considerable point in what Deputy Belton says as to the spending of huge sums of money in the rural areas for the housing of people who have less wages to-day than they had last year or the year before. Many of them have been so reduced in wage-level that no cognisance is taken of them when the statistics for the Department of Industry and Commerce are being compiled. Men who were earning wages which, for statistical purposes, would bring them under the notice of the Department of Industry and Commerce as agricultural labourers, a year ago, are now getting 2/6 a week, with free meat and milk. Those are the people for whom, in many counties, houses are being built at considerable expense to public funds. Rents are expected from these people next year and the year after—rents which would take, practically, all their money-income for the week.

There is another hidden burden on our people. It has been pointed out that, over and above the enormous amount estimated as customs duties by the Minister, £1,500,000 has been taken out of the people's pockets in respect of these duties. That sum is not transferred to the Exchequer without bringing another £500,000 out of the people's pockets. That sum of £1,500,000 takes an additional £500,000 from the pocket of the purchaser and places it in the pockets of the distributors, not making them any richer, but helping them in some way to overcome the losses they are sustaining as the result of carrying on their business under present conditions. That additional £500,000 does not appear in the Minister's Budget, but it appears in the family budget and it appears in the form of a lower standard of living among many sections of the people.

The Minister was, in his day, concerned with the difference between hard taxes and soft taxes. He took off his tax on sugar in the beginning of last year because it was a hard tax and he put it on tea because it was a soft tax. I do not know whether the Minister has revised, in the meantime, his ideas of hard taxes and soft taxes. However, we find him putting a tax on sugar in the beginning of the year and now taking off the tax on tea. The Minister is dipping into the people's pockets to the increased extent of £332,000 for clothing and apparel— with a little more to be added as part of the £500,000 that I spoke of— £160,000 for boots and shoes, £57,000 for woven tissues, £26,000 for coal, £36,000 for tobacco and £61,000 for beer. I wonder how many of these are hard taxes and how many are soft taxes. The Minister derives an additional windfall of £1,500,000 in respect of customs, not a penny of which is being given to the people in relief of taxation this year. I asked the Minister a day or two before he made his Budget statement what were the items in respect of which this unexpected income arose and what was the amount in respect of each item. He said that it was most unusual to deal with matters of that kind before his Budget statement and that he would deal adequately with it in his Budget statement. In that statement he dealt with the sum of £366,000 out of the £1,500,000, and he explained that he had got considerable income unexpectedly from the importation of motor cars. As has been pointed out, he did not draw the attention of the House to the figures with regard to the import of motor cars in the year 1929-30 and in his first year. For three years before the Minister came into office, the total number of cars imported annually was 9,500. He is comparing his excess of income in respect of motor cars with the year in which the total number of cars imported was 4,283. In the first year of Fianna Fáil administration the import of motor cars was reduced to less than half what it had been for three years previously. It appears from his Budgetary statement that a big increase came from motor cars, and then £77,000 was unexpectedly brought in on tea, in connection with which Deputy Cosgrave pointed out there had been a considerable mistake.

On Deputy Cosgrave's part.

The Minister can deal with that. The Minister claims that he got £77,000, unexpectedly, on tea; £87,000 from petrol and £5,600 on clocks.

What did he get from black beetles?

He must have got less than £25,000 from black beetles. One thing is clear, that the import of black beetles in the mind of the Minister for Finance does not suggest prosperity in the country, because he thought it worth while mentioning in his Budget speech that he had an excess of £5,600 on clocks, that out of £1,500,000 that he got for customs, which he did not expect, £5,600 was on clocks. That is worthy of a prominent position in the Budget, but the other £1,150,000 is not worth mentioning, until the Minister is specially questioned about it to-day. We find after he has gone further into the matter, there is an aditional £500,000 that he did not expect, and that even when asked about it he is not going to specify on what items he got it. The matter must bear on the Minister's conscience. I think it is a serious and a hard imposition on the people of all classes, because there is not a single class that is not suffering at present. Beyond even what the Minister indicated last year he was prepared to place on the backs of the people he has in addition this enormous amount for clothing, boots, shoes, beer, tobacco and coal. Clearly then on the Budget, and not smothering over the matter with land annuities, or with what is going to happen local government when the United Ireland Party succeeds in getting more responsible and more representative persons in charge of it, we would like to hear from some of those people who praise this Budget—this magnificent Budget as they describe it— where all the money has gone that the Minister collected in such enormous sums during the last two years; how it happens that where we ought to have a surplus of £3,000,000, if you count all the moneys the Minister unexpectedly collected in certain definite quarters, and the large sums of money that he did not spend in other important quarters, and where even he himself claims a surplus of £1,325,000 he is not able to give a halfpenny relief in taxation, taking the position as a whole.

I cannot help feeling a certain amount of sympathy with Deputies on the opposite benches to-day, when I remember that only this day week their unfortunate dupes down the country were advised by Cumann na nGaedheal Deputies to rush home in their motor cars with supplies of tea, sugar and everything that they could load into them, before the terrible Budget was introduced that was going to rob them for the coming 12 months. The shopkeepers made a fortune last week as they rushed out tea before, as they believed, 8d. a pound extra was put on it. The Minister was also accused of going to put a tax of 5/- on bicycles. When one remembers all the horrible statements that were spread around during the past two months by Opposition Deputies, one cannot help feeling a certain amount of sympathy with them to-day, when they tried to bolster up some kind of a case. They find fault, of course, with the Budget. I admit they are making the best of a bad job. It is taking them all their time to do so. Deputy Belton, and of course Deputy Mulcahy, deprecate the provision of £4,200,000 for rural housing. Why should an old agricultural labourer in the country get a house? What right has he to a house? I remember when Deputy Mulcahy was on the Government Benches he brought in a Housing Act and he took good care that no provision was made for the housing of rural labourers. Why should they get houses? The "jackeens" in Dublin should get them.

They had wages then, anyhow.

I know the kind of wages the Deputy gave them. We all remember the orders Deputy Mulcahy sent down regarding the wages that were to be paid. When a married man who had been five years unemployed went to the labour exchange for a job he found that if there was some "jackeen," who never did an hour's decent work in his lifetime, who had dragged himself out of the National Army, or who had been kicked out of it the week before, he got first preference. The other man with the children had to remain unemployed until first preference was given to ex-members of the National Army. We are not forgetting that point as far as Deputy Mulcahy's wages for labour are concerned. They had wages then, Deputy Mulcahy boasted, but some of the Cumann na nGaedheal ranchers, acting on orders from their executive, succeeded in getting down agricultural labourers' wages to 2/6 a week. Surely that is a fairly proud boast, to out-Herod Herod, as far as pulling down wages is concerned. These are the gentlemen who will not pay their annuities; who will not pay their rates, but who will come along and cut down labourers' wages to 2/6 a week. Unfortunately, they are not in the happy position of getting in foreign food for them now! These are the people who are not in a position to give more than 2/6 a week to labourers, but they can pay extra third party insurance on motor cars, and extra taxation on petrol to run about to Blue Shirt meetings 75 miles away, while they let the sheriff call for the money for the annuities. That was the first objection we heard from the Opposition Benches with regard to the Budget.

A sum of £4,200,000 is provided for rural housing. "Why should it be given?" asks Deputy Belton. "It is an outrage," says Deputy Mulcahy. Of course, Deputy Mulcahy and his henchmen are going to see, if they can, that there will be local bodies elected who will see to it that the rural labourers will not get houses. That is what the local elections are for. That is what is to be done by the new United Ireland Party being put in to look after the interests of the country—the labourers of the country are not to get houses. I am glad that we had that much to-day from Deputies Belton and Mulcahy. That is to be one of the planks in the United Ireland Party programme going down to the country next week, that the Government are providing £4,200,000 for rural housing, and "we are to see that they will not be built, only give us a majority on the local boards." That is their first plan.

The next matter of which they will complain is the giving of this money for relief works. We have not heard anything about that as yet. Is it to that they object? Do they object to the provision of £1,186,000 for unemployment assistance? I am well aware of the policy that "a man may die of starvation but it is not the duty of the Government to provide work for him." Well, we are going to see that men will not die of starvation. I wonder what really are their complaints about?

Then we had Deputy MacDermot talking about the position of the agricultural community. I have no doubt in life that Deputy MacDermot is an authority on farming. He should be an absolute authority on it, for he came in here, the leader of the Centre or Farmers' Party. The special qualification he had for being a leader of the Farmers' Party is that he did not own a half acre of land. Coming here with that qualification he should be an authority on farming. He told us about the terrible agricultural conditions in the country. What are they? We had Deputy Belton again here to-day, and Deputy Mulcahy telling us about the £4,000,000 which the British Government were collecting off us. If they are collecting £4,000,000, are they not providing in bounties and subsidies £4,068,000? That is practically double the land annuities that would be collected. That much money has been provided for the farmers this year.

Deputy Mulcahy enlightened us about the tax that was being paid over the counter for butter. Deputy Mulcahy some time ago endeavoured to lead his Party into the Lobby to prevent the farmer getting at least the cost of production for his butter. But Deputy Mulcahy had a lot of rebels that day. Many of his Party broke away from him that day. As far as his new allies of the Centre Party were concerned, not one of them would follow his lead into the Lobby to prevent the farmer getting his cost of production for butter. We are providing this year, for butter alone, £690,000 in the form of a subsidy, together with a stabilisation price of £600,000. That is over £1,200,000 provided by the Government for butter alone so that the farmers of the country will at least get their cost of production.

If my calculations are correct the farmers this year will grow 150,000 acres of wheat. Some Blue Shirt farmers, acting on the advice of the Deputies opposite, last year refused to grow wheat, but they were early in the field this year. I have seen fields turned up on which the bullocks had been prancing for the past 50 years. The red sod has been turned up and fine fields of wheat are growing now where the bullock rambled for 50 years. Those 150,000 acres will give the farmers £1,500,000 which they would not get from the Cumann na nGaedheal Government. The last year in which I grew wheat was 1926. Mr. Furlong told me it was the finest wheat he had seen for several years. The price was only £6 per ton. That was the maximum price under the Cumann na nGaedheal Government. No farmer could grow wheat at that price. So that the farmers who are being robbed and plundered are getting a market worth £1,500 for wheat alone. Instead of £6 a ton they are now to get £10 a ton. We are giving them a market this year for £1,000,000 worth of beet. That is the market they had not before. That is practically a market of £2,500,000 on two items of farm produce. I wonder then what all the complaints are about?

We are this year making provision for pensions for widows and orphans. Is there any Deputy opposite who objects to it or who says they should not get it? If widows and orphans are entitled to pensions this year why did they not get them for the last 12 years? Why did not the Cumann na nGaedheal Government, while they were in office, come along and say "The widows and orphans of this country surely deserve these pensions; the widows and orphans of the breadwinners who are keeping us in luxury deserve something if their breadwinners are taken from them?" Why did they not provide these pensions, which we are now providing? It is the same with unemployment assistance and everything else that is necessary. The Minister for Finance finds that this unfortunate country that was poverty stricken and bankrupt has become so prosperous in the last 12 months that it paid £88,000 additional taxation on motor cars. And these unfortunate farmers who cannot pay their rates or their annuities can send across the way for a new motor car to drive them to the Blue Shirt meetings.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce gave interesting figures as to the prices of farm produce this year as compared with this month last year. When we remember the statements, the wails and the moans that came from the Opposition Benches during the past seven or eight months we wondered. Where was the good in growing oats? It could not be sold; they could only get 2/6 last year for a barrel of oats. There was then no good in growing it. It is just the same way with barley and other crops. The price for oats now is 7/5 per cwt. and 12 months ago it was 6/6. It is a long time since I heard of 7/5 a cwt. for oats. For several years under the Cumann na nGaedheal régime and at the tail-end of their reign before they were kicked out I never heard of 7/5 a cwt. for oats. They certainly provided a kind of market for the bullock, but it did not pay for the cost of production, even taking into consideration the 2/6 a week in the case of the herdsman on the 980 acres in County Westmeath.

Where are they, and what is the name?

I could not give you the name, but I can furnish you with other details.

They are not there now.

By jove, no, and in 12 months' time there will be 25 families living on it. That man's day is done. It is a pity Cumann na nGaedheal did not hunt him ten years ago. It would be better for the country if they did. They had some kind of market for the bullock, but they provided no opportunity for the farmer who was prepared to take off his coat and work his land. I have seen lines of those unfortunate farmers drawn up in the harvest time trying to get rid of barley and, as a great compliment, about a fortnight or three weeks after threshing—about the middle of September—the buyers would say "We will take some of it from you and we will let you know the price in December." The farmers had to give the grain. Messrs. Guinness, Beamish and the rest of them put forward their proposals and the farmers had to accept. The price was whatever they liked to pay. Cumann na nGaedheal was quite satisfied to have the farmers in that position.

I saw the buyers last harvest vying with each other buying the grain as fast as they could get it and motoring around from district to district. They were actually chasing one another into the farmyards buying the barley from the farmers. That is the difference between the agricultural policy of Cumann na nGaedheal and our agricultural policy. Despite their anxiety about and their love for the British market, and notwithstanding the £5,000,000 paid yearly as a bribe to Britain, Britain paid £13,000,000 less for our agricultural produce in 1931 than she did in 1928. I wonder upon what leg are the Opposition going to stand? We were elected as a poor man's Government.

You have certainly made them poor.

You succeeded in making them poor men, anyhow.

I can guarantee to any Deputy opposite that not one fellow with a motor car voted for me and yet I got 11,000 votes, within 200 or 300 of what the three Cumann na nGaedheal Deputies got.

You got them all by false promises.

And I would get them again to-morrow and probably double the number.

All you have to do is to wait and see. Whatever you got you got by false promises.

I am afraid there will be a lot of the Deputies on the opposite benches going home the night of the count with their tails between their legs and asking themselves "Are the people mad?"

The Deputy is making a very rambling speech.

Wait and see. All I have told you will come true.

I gave more employment myself than you or many of your colleagues.

People who think that the ordinary labourers are going to vote for such a policy as was put forward here to-night by Deputy Belton and Deputy Mulcahy will be very sorry but very wise men the day of the poll. We have provided £40 of a grant for any working farmer who wishes to reconstruct his house.

He is squealing now, thanks to the policy of your Government.

If you think he is going to be twisted round to vote for Deputy Mulcahy's policy, you are making a tremendous mistake. If you think you are going to get away with that policy you will wake up the day of the count a much wiser fellow. You will be nearly as bad as the old lad at the last election who smashed his wireless set and threw it out of the window. The people of this country——

Are being codded.

They were codded for ten years and then they found you out.

The Deputy might keep away from the realms of prophecy and address the Chair?

I have always proved to be such a good prophet that I like making a little prophecy now and again just to keep up the hearts of the Deputies opposite. Talking of prophecies, the Deputies opposite made a prophecy down the country last week to their dupes.

Down in Enniscorthy there was some hammering of heads.

What about the poor devil who ran home?

Nobody on our side ran home. The Opposition ran home.

The Deputy must cease interrupting.

I will not say another word.

What do you think of the position of the poor devil who had the sheriff's notice in his pocket for the annuities, and when he was going to pay them he was advised by Deputy Keating, Deputy Bennett or someone else, and he went and purchased 60 or 70 lbs. of tea on the understanding that there was a sum of 8d. a pound to be clapped on tea? The result was that he could not pay his annuities. Look at the position he is in now. He has 60 or 70 lbs. of tea; the sheriff is looking for his annuities, and the tea, God save us, will be down 4d. a lb. on the 1st July. I advise the Deputy to keep clear of that parish for the next 12 months. He will have no business going near it.

Neither will the Minister for Agriculture.

If the Deputy goes down there one of the old women might take off her apron and choke him with it. Deputies on the other side ought to have more sense than making these prophecies and giving that advice to their constituents. They have amongst them a number of pretty old crabs and lots of bald heads and they ought to be more sensible. It is about time that most of them had learned commonsense.

It is time you did.

I have to ask the Deputy to withdraw for the remainder of to-day's sitting.

Mr. Keating then withdrew.

I cannot see what objection Deputies opposite have to the manner in which the money is being spent. We would like to hear their objections. I said already that we were elected as a Government of the plain people in this country; and we are providing for the plain people. I have only one regret in connection with this Budget, and I make no bones about stating it. I regret that 6d. has been taken off the income tax. I think that £250,000 which that represents could be much better spent on the poor of this country. If a man is able to pay income tax he has not much of my sympathy. When I read the Budget statement I began to have sincere sympathy with Deputies opposite. I was wondering which leg they would elect to stand upon. They have my sympathy. Judging by the form of Deputy Belton's speech upon the Budget, other Deputies opposite are entitled to our sympathy. Deputy Belton, I would like to say, frankly, is, in my opinion, one of the ablest of the Deputies in the benches opposite. One can follow what he says. When I saw the condition to which Deputy Belton was reduced to-night, I said "God help the rest of them." When other Deputies opposite attempt to make a case I am afraid the judgment of the people upon their efforts will be that they were very poor indeed.

It seems to me that Deputies opposite in their speeches have travelled a considerable distance away from the Budget this evening. However, in doing that a considerable amount of truth has come out. One of the truest sayings came from Deputy Corry. He told the House that Fianna Fáil was a poor man's Government, and that they were elected by the plain people of the country, and for the poor people. I understand that most of the people in this country are plain looking. When Deputy Corry was speaking, and Deputy Keating was interrupting I could not make up my mind who was the plainer. I could not understand how it could be that Deputy Corry was speaking for the plain people, and Deputy Keating was not because they looked on a par so far as plainness is concerned. I could not make up my mind which I would vote for on that score. This, of course, is slightly irrelevant, but it was introduced by Deputy Corry. He tells us that Fianna Fáil is a poor man's Government. There are cases in my own constituency where people applied for assistance under the Unemployment Assistance Act; they thought themselves entitled to it and they have been awarded a shilling in some cases, and two shillings per week in other instances. I know a case where a man living ten miles away from the Unemployment Assistance Office had to come in and sign a document in order that he could get one shilling a week; another man had to travel the same distance to get 2/- a week. I know another case where a fellow spent 1/3 on a bus coming in to collect a shilling. I take it that that condition of things represents accurately what Deputy Corry has been telling us about in connection with this poor man's Government.

What this side of the House, however, is concerned about, is not Deputy Corry's question as to what objection we have to the spending of £36,000,000. What we want to know, and what the country wants to know, is the cause of the reversal, in these latter years, by the Government of the Fianna Fáil policy. Up and down the country during the last two General Elections I have been quoting these famous Fianna Fáil posters. I think it would be a useful thing to quote them here again in order to recall to mind what these statements were. Might I remind Deputy Corry, who represents the plain people, what he was looking for for the plain people prior to his Government coming into office. There was a cry up and down the country, with which to a very large extent I agreed, that the country was intolerably over-taxed. The taxation of the country then, for the Supply Services was £21,000,000 and for Central Fund Services £4,000,000, making a total of £25,000,000. The Fianna Fáil Party thought that an intolerable burden, and I agreed. I still agree that £25,000,000 is too much to spend in this country. What was the limit fixed by Fianna Fáil? What was their economic policy? What was the economic policy of Deputy Corry, the pioneer of the farmers in Cork's happy land?

Not that of a briefless barrister.

The Deputy should not interject such remarks.

They announced their policy with a statement: "Economy means the elimination of waste; getting 20/- value for every £ of the taxpayer's money spent on the Public Service. Fianna Fáil is satisfied that substantial economies are feasible, without reducing social services, inflicting hardship on any class of Government servants or impairing in the slightest degree the efficiency of the administrative machine." This document looks like as if one were drafting a Bill. After the preamble there follows the enactment——

Has the Deputy ever read a Bill in this House?

And they go on to say they have "examined with minute care the Estimates of Supply Services for the current year." They tell us that they examined with minute care the expenditure for two years before; and they came to the conclusion that by eliminating certain items, to which I shall refer, they would be able to save £2,000,000. I wonder how the Estimates for this year are being made up? What sort of minute care have they employed in examining them. We are told that there is to be a surplus of something over £1,200,000. They went on to say "we are convinced that a saving of many hundred thousand pounds can be made, not including such items as the sum of £1,152,500 paid to the British Government in respect of R.I.C. pensions and other similar payments not required by the Treaty." I do not like to be personal, but I would like to know if Deputy Corry is interested in that last item. They were to lop off these items. They were convinced that without cutting the social services the burden of taxation could be lightened by no less than £2,000,000 a year. The taxation of the country then was £25,000,000 including the Central Fund. It was to be reduced by £2,000,000. The total now is £36,000,000. They were to take £2,000,000 off £25,000,000, instead of which we have £36,000,000 now, which makes a difference between what they were to do and what they have actually done of £13,000,000.

Before the members of the Government entered office they were going to reduce taxation by £2,000,000 a year. Now we find that they have increased it by £13,000,000 a year. Will Deputy Corry, or some of those who sit on the Government Benches, tell us what has brought that about? Of course, it is because it is a plain man's Budget, but I have given three instances of how the plain people, as the Deputies opposite call them, are going to fare under it. I thought that the Minister for Finance, in the course of his profuse statement on Wednesday last, would, while attempting to justify this increase in taxation and in the public debt of the country, let the House know what principles inspired him, and how all this taxation was going to be raised. He dealt with capital liabilities. He assessed the land annuities at £92,000,000 as a liability in his Budget statement of 1932, but there has not been a word about that since. Is it a liability? If it is, what effect is it going to have on the future economic life of this country. What steps are being taken by the Minister to deal with it. Assume that it is £92,000,000; it was then terminable, but it is now a perpetual liability of about £5,500,000 annually. We are aware that no provision is now being made for sinking fund with regard to the collection of this money. It is now a tax imposed on the produce of the country. I would be glad if Deputy Corry, who. I understand, is a considerable farmer, would deal with that and how it is going to affect this country in the future, particularly in relation to the amount of taxation that is now being imposed which has reached the huge figure of £36,000,000. If we add to that the £5,500,000 collected by Great Britain we get a total of £41,500,000. How is that money to be got? What is the Minister's policy for liquidating that amount?

We did not get any indication from him as to what the monetary policy of the Government is. It is very important that we should have some information from him on that because the price of primary products exported from this country has been reduced by 40 per cent., while the collection of half the annuities at home means a further reduction of 20 per cent. Therefore, we arrive at the position that the price of all our primary products has been reduced by 60 per cent. In view of that, how are the producers to meet their liabilities? To put it in a simple way: out of every £100 that they get £60 is lopped off. Somebody on the Government side may say: "Well, that money was being paid before this." I say that it was not. A portion of it, a sum of less than £3,000,000, was being charged on primary products: the amount allocated to the land annuities. The other moneys involved were payable as interest on local loans, for R.I.C. pensions and some other purposes; but so far as the primary products of the country were concerned they were only liable for a sum of less than £3,000,000. Last year in respect of that one item Great Britain collected £5,552,000, while half the annuities were collected at home. It is important to recall that in the first three months of 1933, when there was an open market for the export of our live-stock and other primary products, England collected a sum of £593,000. At the beginning of this year England adopted a policy of quotas. One would have thought that, in order to save her own agricultural industry, she intended to forego the collection of these moneys on Irish produce because it looked as if the quantity of Irish produce allowed in under the quota system would not produce anything like the approximate amount required, but what do we find? That during the months of January, February and March of this year England collected £599,000, or £6,000 more than she collected last year. According to the figures given by the English Chancellor of the Exchequer last month England had a surplus of £1,000,000 last year after collecting all the money that she required to meet the anticipated deficit.

Would the Minister tell us what is to be the monetary policy of the Government to meet the situation that we are faced with here? What is going to happen to our primary producers if they are to be burdened by this double taxation? I think everyone will admit that there is very little hope of this country doing a considerable export trade as long as our industries have to depend on our internal trade. If the agricultural industry is to be crushed to death by these overhead charges how is it going to be in a position to buy the products of our factories? The Minister for Industry and Commerce, in the course of his speech this evening, did not refer once to the Budget. He told us what the leaders of this Party were saying one against the other and about a hundred and one other things, but he did not refer once to the Budget. He said, of course, that there were people in this Party who cheered when there were industrial reverses. I have never heard or seen evidence of anything of the kind. Personally, I hope to see any industry started here flourishing. I want to ask him what is to become of us? Are the reactions already setting in? Is that what the Minister was driving at this evening? Is that what the Minister for Industry and Commerce is referring to when he says that things were not as well as he hoped or as they should be? Is the reaction already setting in? If it is not already setting in, it must set in eventually. It will set in inevitably for the simple reason that the factories that are being set up in this country are being set up to produce the amount of goods that would supply the normal demands of the community at its full purchasing power. Now that those factories have been erected, the community that should buy £100 worth of goods—the products of those factories —will have their incomes reduced somewhere to about £40. Will not that obviously react on the factories? Then the factories will be there, their capital will be invested in them, and then from day to day they will decline. From what the Minister said this evening I should infer rather that there are some reactions already. If they are not there already they are bound to come. The thing is obvious and patent that, as the purchasing power of the agricultural community goes down, so will the prosperity of the factories go down.

What steps are being taken to remedy this? The Minister blotted that out completely. He drew the blotting paper over that question. One might not be so much concerned about the amount of this Budget, crushing as it is, but I should say that nobody in the Fianna Fáil Party has denounced the cost of administration and the amount of its taxation as I have done. If I did that when the Cumann na nGaedheal taxation was, roughly, about £25,000,000, what am I going to say now when the Fianna Fáil Party comes into office—the Party that was to bring us financial reform and was to reduce taxation by £2,000,000—and we have to-day £36,000,000 by way of taxation? I really think that the less said about that the better. We are told, of course, that: "Oh, there is money for this and money for that." Deputy Corry tells us about the £40,000 for the poor farmer to help him to repair his house. The only people that I am concerned with are the people of the Gaeltacht, where huge masses of the population are forced to live in a condition of semi-poverty all their lives. What is there in this Budget for them? £60,000 for grants to rehouse the Gaeltacht—the Gaeltacht that is the soul of Ireland, that is to preserve the Gaelic language and Gaelic civilisation in this country. £60,000— such a contemptible sum! Did the Minister think that he was throwing roses, daisies and pansies at the homes of the people of the Gaeltacht, or did he know what they actually require? Approximately 20,000 new houses are required, and approximately 10,000 houses require to be repaired and reconstructed, requiring at least an approximate sum of £2,500,000.

Would the Deputy tell the House where he got his figures?

I get the figures from my constituency. I take an area and then I draw a comparison between it and the entire area on that basis. It is done quite easily—quite as easily as the Minister can do it—but I suppose he thinks that nobody can calculate a few thousands but himself. We have not to go to the Canary Islands in order to be able to make calculations of that kind.

The Deputy, of course, can exercise his imagination in Donegal or in this House, but there is no foundation for his figures.

No foundation for my figures? I challenge the Minister to come into this House at any time during this debate and produce his figures, and I will be terribly surprised if they are not somewhere near the figures I have given. I say that £2,500,000 are required to complete rehousing in the Gaeltacht. We who represent those areas have been tortured for the last 12 months with applications for those grants, asking us to go to the Department and get money for that purpose. We have put down question after question in this House. Every day a Bill is promised to provide additional moneys. It has still to come. Now we are being offered £60,000. It might as well be 60,000 farthings. I know that there is plenty of money for housing generally, but the Gaeltacht problem is a separate and distinct problem by itself. You cannot expect this poor man about whom Deputy Corry speaks, who is getting £40,000 to reconstruct his house, to send 30 or 40 miles for an architect to come to the site and draw up a plan and charge £5 for that—£2 to come to inspect it when it is half built, and £2 more when it is finished. The provisions in the Gaeltacht Housing Act were put into it specially to provide for the special conditions prevailing in the Gaeltacht. For that reason I look upon this sum of £60,000 as contemptible and utterly worthless. On both sides of the House we have all been talking about the necessity for preserving the Gaeltacht because the preservation of the Gaeltacht will mean preserving the language and re-Gaelicising Ireland.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce took exception to various statements made by Deputy MacDermot as to whether or not certain items in this Budget should be met by borrowing or should be charges on the revenue. Let us take one item. I should like to know what justification there is for borrowing for the purpose of paying bounties, because the payment of bounties arises out of the difficulty that is owing to the economic war. Is there any hope that there is going to be any justification for that? If that payment is not going to be made out of revenue, why should it be borrowed? Is the economic war to continue forever? Are we to have borrowing each year to provide these bounties on primary products exported to England, and each year, as the economic war continues and the resources of this country become further dissipated, are we still to borrow? Of course, we will have the Minister for Finance coming before this House and saying not a word about the amount collected by England from the farmers of this country—not a word from him as to whether he is going to continue or to end the economic war, or, if he is going to end it, when he is going to end it. Of course, we got a campaign of slaughtering calves. I suppose this is because it will come to the period when there will be no cattle for export and nothing for England to collect a tariff from. Here, however, we have got an additional sum of £500,000 in order to pay bounties on eggs and certain other commodities produced on the farms. I suppose that we will soon have a fresh order for the slaughter of chickens. That will be a very innocent occupation. The Minister should let the House know what message he has for the farmers of this country as to the duration of the economic war and what provision will be made for the future. I would also like the Minister to take the House into his confidence, seeing that there has been a lot of talk here about secret agreements for the last couple of years, and to tell the farmers of this country what attempts he and the Government have made to settle this war. Let the country know definitely as to whether or not it is going to be settled. There has been quoted here by Deputy Cosgrave an extract from a speech by the Minister last December at the Chamber of Commerce, in which he said there was no obstacle that could not be surmounted in the way of a settlement. If that is so, why has the obstacle not been surmounted and why were the negotiations to which the Minister was a party not continued? The country would like to know once and for all what is going to happen.

Everyone was, I am sure, delighted to see the bountiful return from the various taxes during the year. The Minister, however, was like a cat who saw a saucer of fresh cream in front of it. He lapped it up and made no comment as to why it came or how it came, or whether it was likely to continue. We had a very plausible paragraph about the revenue from excise duties and from drink, but not a word of explanation as to how that came about. What was the reason for the abnormal return? We all know that the reason was the extraordinarily good season we had last year—the continued dry weather and the continued dry throats, as a result. One would like to draw a distinction between the attitude of the Minister in this House and the attitude of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in England, because, when he was dealing with this item, he told the House of Commons the reason for the abnormal yield in this case, but we had not a word from our Minister. Not at all. It was due to the fact that this country is prosperous and to the fact that there are coins to be picked up all over the roads, and that all one had to do is to scoop them up and go into the public-house and have a drink.

We had not that much candour on an item of this kind, so how can we expect any candour in regard to the item of £5,500,000 collected by England last year and which he wiped to one side when calculating the capital liabilities of this country? Is there anybody inside or outside this House who does not know that that £5,500,000 is hanging round the neck of this country just as much as if the Treasury remitted a cheque for that amount annually? Each beast that goes out of the country and each item of agricultural produce that goes out has imposed upon it that amount, but we have not got a word about that from the Minister. No, that is not taxation; it does not fall on our people; take no notice of it because it is not a capital liability on this country. In order to make the case that he had reduced the capital liabilities of this country during his two years, that was wiped aside. Is that honest? The Minister would lose nothing in dignity and nothing in integrity by taking cognisance of that huge item and putting it before the Dáil and before the country. There is no use trying to hide it, because the most illiterate man in this country knows it. Let us be candid with ourselves and with the country and the country will be much better off.

This Budget is a display by the Minister of what this Government is doing for the plain people. We had in this House the Cumann na nGaedheal Government attacked because they were spending too much money. We take it that it was because there was too much money being spent on social services when £21,000,000 were being spent.

Not enough.

How much more is to be spent now, when £29,000,000 are to be spent? How does the Minister justify his policy now with his policy three years ago before he came into office? How does he justify his policy towards the people who have money in this country? Comment has been made this evening on the reference he made to the time he issued his loan. In my opinion, it would have been much better for the Minister not to have made any reference to the lack of support—I will use no stronger language—which the National Loan received last December, but, of course, he could not let it go. The temptation was too great. He said:—

"Having said that, it is with great regret that I shall have for a moment to refer to a statement made during the period when the lists were open to the effect that the amount raised by the Loan, £6,000,000, was going to be spent in bribes for votes, and that in the middle of all the bribery a General Election would be called and county surveyors sent out to give work and arrangements made for free supplies of milk to get Mr. de Valera back."

I understood that he was President de Valera, but that was by the way. The Minister had to stick that in.

What actually happened? What was the cause of any failure there was with regard to applications for National Loan? Does the Minister think the House forgets it and that the country forgets it? What had we got—the President in correspondence with "Dear Mr. Thomas." What was the correspondence about? It was in substance this: Dear Mr. Thomas; If I declare a Republic, what will you do with me? That was a nice how-do-you-do. It was an undecided thing, because he wrote to his "dear Mr. Thomas" asking what would "dear Mr. Thomas" do if he declared a Republic. Why did the President not say that he was going to do one thing or the other and that he was not going to ask Mr. Thomas about it? Then, the people who have money would know where they were. "My dear Mr. Thomas; If I declare a Republic will you hit me with the baby in my arms?"—and, of course, the man with £1,000 to invest is asked to invest it on conditions like that.

I particularly refer to this because when the Minister introduced his Budget last year he referred to the fact that he was going to borrow and the Cabinet should have seen that the decks were cleared and the atmosphere favourable for a loan, but instead we get this correspondence with "dear Mr. Thomas." What was the second item we had—an attack made in that particular week on the Blue Shirts, the suppression of the National Guard and the arrest of men for wearing a blue shirt. One would have thought that the Minister for Finance would have gone to the Attorney-General and made sure of his law, if it was possible to get it from that source. I addressed a meeting during that week and a body of Blue Shirts came out on parade. The Superintendent of the Guards came along and said: "You have got to go back; if you parade with those shirts on, I will have to arrest you." What crime were they committing? What law had they broken? They had a perfect right, as the law then stood and now stands, to wear any garment they liked, and I so told the superintendent; but, after all, the peace of this country is more valuable than any temporary political advantage, and I advised those people to go back and put their coats on. Had I been stiff-necked enough, knowing I was right in law, I would have told those men to go on. What would have been the result? A baton charge; a row. Where would it end? All this was in the week the loan was going to be issued; first, the huge question of what our political status was internationally; secondly, the prospect of domestic strife. Then the Minister has to introduce this here by way of cloaking over whatever difficulties there were as regards subscriptions to the National Loan.

Is the Deputy now endeavouring to dissociate himself from that statement?

What statement?

The statement of General O'Duffy on the 8th December.

What was that?

The one I referred to.

I never saw it.

Would the Deputy like to hear it?

Yes. Read it.

This statement is reported in the Irish Times of December 9th.

"I certainly hope," said General O'Duffy, "...but I am afraid that that £6,000,000 is going to be spent on bribes for votes. In the middle of this bribery a general election will be called and county surveyors will be sent out to give work and arrangements made for free supplies of milk to get Mr. de Valera back."

Do I understand that the point of the Deputy's speech now is to dissociate himself from that speech?

Not at all. If he made it, well and good. What was it? A speech made by General O'Duffy somewhere down the country, but what was the big issue? The big issue was whether this State was to be a Republic or not. Was not that the big Constitutional issue? Was not that the issue which was going to decide the security of this country as an investment, and not what General O'Duffy or anybody else said up and down the country? That was obviously the big issue, and the people consequently drew in their horns with regard to investing in this loan. What is the speech that has been quoted? The speech of one of the Leaders of the Opposition Party not responsible for the policy of the Government.

Is he responsible for anything?

Does the Minister say General O'Duffy is responsible for the policy of the Government?

I am asking the Deputy is General O'Duffy responsible for anything?

He is not responsible for the policy of the Government, and that is what was involved. The position was that you yourselves did not know whether this State was to be a Republic or not. You had to write across to London to "My dear Mr. Thomas" to ask him what the future status of this country was to be— whether it should remain in the Commonwealth or be a Republic.

Or the National League.

Have you anything to say to the National League? It got you in here and got the Minister in here. That closes that case. Do not say anything about that. I know too much about that.

He does not like to be reminded of his past.

They had to pull you in on a rope around the corner. Whatever you mention in this House do not mention that, because most people in the House do not know what happened then. I do.

He did not lie on the rope for long. There must have been soap on it.

Let sleeping dogs sleep. What is going to be the end of this? An increasing burden of taxation, and whether the Minister admits it or not an increasing burden of national debt. What results from that? There is only one answer. Year by year, as this policy proceeds, the country will gradually go down the slope until ultimately it sinks into some place which nobody knows anything about.

The most striking fact in connection with the debate on the Budget has been the absolute want of unity either of speech or outlook which has been displayed from the Opposition Benches. Deputy Cosgrave opened with a rather mild speech, not what this House would have listened to if this were a bad Budget. In the course of his remarks he was compelled to admit that the country was sound, that it was solvent, and that it was unshaken in its financial stability. He admitted that matters looked satisfactory if things as disclosed in the Budget were right. Not once during his speech did Deputy Cosgrave attempt to show that any of the figures given in the Budget were in any way inaccurate. After Deputy Cosgrave, Deputy MacDermot followed. Being short of material on which to criticise the Budget he indulged in a long discourse on the economic war and its consequences, still believing that Britain was the best market in the world, and that goods could be sold there at a considerable profit, when everybody knows in fact that the whole tendency of the British market is to contract in respect of those agricultural goods which we must export to that country. He said finally that this Budget was worse than the previous Budget. When Deputy MacDermot said that I rather felt that the brief given by the Cumann na nGaedheal Party to the Irish Times was being thrown aside. Even the Irish Times was compelled to admit that it was a good Budget, and even the people in the country who support the Party opposite are being compelled to admit that it was a surprisingly good Budget. The fact that the House has had to listen to the many discordant views expressed by the Party opposite is the clearest possible indication that the Opposition Party are at their wits' end to make a case against this Budget.

So far as the Labour Party are concerned they are extremely gratified that not only has the standard of social legislation been maintained under this Budget but that it has even been increased. If one wants to get a picture of what has happened in the last two years as compared with the position during the previous ten years one has only got to take stock of the position this year and last year in the matter of social legislation and compare that position with what obtained here during the previous ten years of the Cumann na nGaedheal Government. In every country in Europe where the Fascist reaction which the Opposition wants to create here held sway the whole tendency is to debase the standard of living of the plain people in the country. The whole tendency in Fascist Italy, in Fascist Austria, and Hitler Germany is to rob the working-class people of the standards of social legislation which they were able to win through the working-class organisations in the days of Parliamentary Government. With concrete evidence of that fact before us, with a recognition that in many countries in the world to-day where Fascist reaction has reared its ugly head the whole tendency is to debase the standard of living of the plain people, it is a matter for great congratulation that here in this outpost of Western Europe far from debasing the standards of living of our people we are endeavouring to improve them with the utmost possible expedition.

In the 1932 Budget provision was made for a comprehensive housing scheme. I say of the Housing Act of that year, and I challenge contradiction by any Deputy opposite, that it is the best Housing Act which exist in any country in Europe to-day. It deals with the housing problem on a bigger and more comprehensive scale than any other country in Europe deals with that problem to-day. It has made available large sums of money in the form of grants, in the form of subventions towards interest charges, and loans from the Local Loans Fund, which were never even dreamt of by the Party opposite when they were in power. To get a picture of the difference which that Housing Act has made to our people, as compared with the position under the Cumann na nGaedheal Government, we can take the official figures and ascertain the direction in which we are moving.

During the ten years that the Party opposite were in power not a single labourer's cottage was built in this country. What is the position to-day? There have been erected or there are in course of erection no less than 8,000 labourer's cottages. I venture to say that when the figures are examined two years hence it will be found that in the four years 1932-1936 we shall have built half the number of labourers' cottages that were built in the 50 years from 1881. Under the last Government, in the ten years from 1922 to 1932 24,000 houses were built. What is the position to-day? To-day we are building houses at the rate of 15,000 per year. The last Government built about 2,500 each year. The present rate of house building is 15,000 per year. Approximately seven times as many have been built each year in the two years since the 1932 Housing Act was passed as were built each year during the ten years the Party opposite were in power. These, according to the Party opposite, were years of peaceful progress and the only danger to the country was that the people might get drowned in a deluge of Cumann na nGaedheal milk and honey. Last year we had public health schemes provided in a big and comprehensive way, so much so that there was much more public health work provided than in any period of two years during the previous Government's régime. In 1932 there was an Old Age Pensions Act passed which provided an extra £250,000 for old age and blind pensioners.

On top of that we had a scheme to provide free milk for necessitous children. I know of course that the extern Leader of the Party opposite makes cheap play with the Government scheme for providing milk for necessitous children. If the extern Leader of that Party were an unemployed labourer, who had got helpless children dependent on him, he would not talk in the manner in which he is talking to-day about the State scheme for the provision of free milk for necessitous children. In any case the extern Leader of the Party is doing nothing to give them milk, whether he pays for it himself or whether his Party funds are going to make it available for these necessitous children. I challenge Deputy Mulcahy or Deputy Dockrell to go out into the City of Dublin and to tell the people that they ought not to get free milk for their necessitous children. £20,000 a year is being spent in the provision of free milk for necessitous children in the city. I would ask any Deputy of the Fine Gael Party to go out to any working-class area, in Gloucester Street or anywhere else, and advocate the abolition of the free milk scheme. I can tell them that they would get very short shrift from their audience if they talked nonsense of that kind.

We have the satisfaction that housing is being provided at a still faster rate, that more money is being made available for public health schemes, that there is no question of interfering with the extra provision made for old age pensions, that the free milk scheme is to be continued and that there has been in every way a change, a humanitarian change, in the administrative and executive spheres since the advent of the present Government. So far from resting on their oars and saying: "We have done enough; you cannot expect us to do anything more for the next ten years" we find that provision is made by the Government to finance the Unemployment Assistance Act, an Act which will make available £1,500,000 for the provision of assistance for those who have exhausted their right to unemployment insurance benefit or who do not come under the scope of the Unemployment Insurance Act. I am quite conscious of the shortcomings of that Act but it is a fair beginning in difficult circumstances, and I am hopeful that if the Minister for Finance finds that further sums are necessary to relieve such employment as exists, it will be possible substantially to increase the rates of benefit under the Unemployment Assistance Act. In any case with all its limitations, even if one magnifies them, it is something more than the last Government ever did to make provision for those who have no employment and who can make no claim whatever for unemployment insurance benefit.

We have also got in this year's Budget that very gratifying innovation—the provision of pensions for the nation's widows and fatherless children. The Labour Party has constantly urged that reform in this House, and in fact has been the one political Party which has been a pioneer in advocating that reform in this country. During the time the last Government was in office a motion was moved by Deputy Tadhg Murphy, of the Labour Party, asking the last Government to make provision for a scheme of widows' and orphans' pensions. At that time rather than make provision for such a scheme, the Government resorted to the device of having an amendment moved by a back bencher of the Party to shelve the scheme for widows' and orphans' pensions. This year £250,000 will be made available for such a scheme. In a normal year it is estimated that the scheme will cost £400,000. I do not know, without an examination of the scheme, how far £400,000 will go to provide adequate pensions for widows and orphans, but I would hope that the Minister will not tie himself to £400,000 if it is found necessary that such a sum is not sufficient to give fairly adequate pensions to widows and orphans. In any case £400,000 is £400,000 more than the last Government spent in the provision of widows' and orphans' pensions. No matter how bad the Budget might be in other respects, no Government or no Party supporting a Government which has made provision in the Budget for spending £400,000 on widows' and orphans' pensions, need hang its head in shame because of any imperfections in that Budget.

Provision is also made for £500,000 for relief schemes. While I welcome that provision, I hope that the Minister will indicate that, if it is necessary to increase it, the Government will not shrink from doing so because work of any kind is better than that people should remain idle. There is no worse form of waste than allowing people to remain idle when there is useful and necessary work to be done. In good times this would be a good Budget but in difficult times, in my opinion, and I have no hesitation whatever in saying it, it is an extremely good Budget. If we had not so much of the wailing and croaking that is so common to a certain political Party in the State it might be possible to infuse into our people a greater buoyancy, to harness the efforts of the nation to a new enthusiasm, to make this country the best possible land for our people, but when we have wailing and croaking speeches made by Deputies opposite, speeches which I am now glad to see have been rebuked by the responsible organ of the Party opposite, the Irish Times, it is extremely difficult to get to the service of the nation all the enthusiasm that one would like to see permeating all Parties in the State. If one were to believe the speeches of Deputy Belton, the Minister who-might-have-been, judging by his speech at Naas recently, one would imagine that the country was a vast workhouse. Then we have my colleague in Kildare alternating between speeches reeking with hysterics and speeches saturated with depression. That is the kind of speech we get from the Party opposite and that is the kind of damping down of national enthusiasm which does no good to the Party opposite but which helps to dam up the national enthusiasm of our people. I am glad to see that in spite of all this discouragement from the Opposition Party the Minister has been able to produce what is, as I said, an extraordinarily good Budget in particularly difficult times. The Budget sets up new and better standards of social legislation for the plain people of the country and so long as this Government continues on these lines they can rest assured that they will have the whole-hearted support of the Labour Party. I should have imagined that the Party opposite would have claimed this Budget as a good Budget and have no hesitation in doing so. I have pointed out that the Budgets of 1932 and 1933 contained within them many valuable measures of social reform, many measures which have lifted up the standard of living of the plain people of the country.

The Budget of 1934, which we are now considering, not only maintains the standard created during those two years but even carries the standard of social legislation a substantial step further. One would imagine that the Party opposite would be only too glad to acclaim this as a good Budget from the point of view of the poor and needy sections of the community. We had the extern leader of the Party opposite going to Clifden on Sunday last and making a speech there. In the course of his speech he said, "We have been accused of being a ranchers' Party," as if his own conscience was troubling him. Then throwing aside all caution and responsibility he told the people of Clifden that he did not give a damn about ranchers. He said, "We are a poor man's Party." The Party opposite is a poor man's Party! I want to ask Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney was it because they were a poor man's Party that they cut the old age pensions.

Was it because they were a poor man's Party they built no labourers' cottages for ten years?

Does the Deputy say that one was built?

I shall answer all the questions in globo.

Does the Deputy say that they were a poor man's Party and not a ranchers' Party when, in introducing the agricultural grant in 1931, they gave the lion's share to the ranchers and the crumbs to the small farmers? Does he say that because they were a poor man's Party they could not introduce an Unemployment Assistance Act to make provision for the needy people who were unable to claim benefits under the Unemployment Insurance Act? Does he say that because they were a poor man's Party they shelved the introduction of a scheme of widows' and orphans' pensions? It is the most extraordinary poor man's Party in any country in the world—a poor man's Party which steamrolls the workers into poverty and destitution and at the same time avows that it does not give a damn about the ranchers. I suggest to Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney that somebody ought to resume the practice of reading that gentleman's speeches and not let him out on a Sunday on the western Atlantic seaboard making speeches of that kind which are clearly irresponsible, grossly inaccurate and not calculated to enhance the reputation of the Party of which Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney is such a responsible member. I do not think there is any need to say any more on the Budget. As I said, I think it is a good Budget and the Minister for Finance can congratulate himself on its introduction. It sets up a new standard of social legislation which will never be tumbled down so long as Parliamentary government is preserved for the people in this country.

I think that this Budget has been singularly unfortunate in its defenders, because if the speech we have just heard from Deputy Norton can be taken as the best thing that the Leader of the Labour Party can put forward in favour of this Budget it must indeed be a very wretched production. The Deputy was very careful all through his speech to keep away from the real things which are behind the Budget. Deputy Norton was very careful not to defend this Budget in the places where he knows it is indefensible. Deputy Norton was very careful not to say that he was not standing over the justification of the enormous burden of extra taxation which the Budget puts on the country. Deputy Norton did not attempt to vindicate the very unsound finance which is to be found in every line, I might say, of the Minister for Finance's speech where he was dealing at all with finance. We have heard some very curious statements from Deputy Norton because, as I say, he did not attempt to defend the Budget. He adopted the old device—when you cannot defend your own position then endeavour to make an attack upon your adversary.

Is not that a lawyer's device?

He was supposed to defend the Budget, but he got very weary of attempting to advocate it, so he proceeded to deal with matters with which the Budget had nothing to do. One of the things I was very much interested in—I hope it was unconscious, but certainly it was a complete and entire abandonment, I will put it, of accuracy—was when he made the extraordinary statement that this Government have lifted up the standard of living of the poor. Deputy Norton is either in complete ignorance of what is taking place in this county and of the conditions of the poor, or else he has allowed his imagination so to run away with his tongue that he is unable to face the House with a statement in any way approximating to the truth. I would venture to say to anybody who knows this country it is as clear as can be that seldom in any State, except in a State in which there was an actual revolution, has the standard of living of the ordinary plain man in the street and the ordinary workingman, whose friend and advocate Deputy Norton professes to be, been driven down as fast in the space of two years as this Government has driven down the standard of living of the ordinary person. "We are a poor man's Government," is their cry. "I am a supporter and a great advocate of the poor man's Government; I am walking meekly and mildly behind Fianna Fáil, because they are a poor man's Government," says Deputy Norton. If he goes down to my constituency and asks the people there if their standard of living has been raised, if this Government is a poor man's Government or a rich man's Government, I think Deputy Norton will get his answer very quickly. There are people in my constituency who were well off a couple of years ago, as there are people in every single constituency similarly circumstanced all over the State who were well off a couple of years ago, and who do not now know where to get the bare necessaries of life. Yet we are told that this is a poor man's Government.

This is supposed to be a Budget which is bringing prosperity to this country. What are the proofs of that? The receipts from income tax are higher than was estimated. Let me assume for the moment that the conclusion which the Minister for Finance attempted to draw from that can be legitimately drawn from it —that because he made a mis-estimate last year of the probable yield of income tax, this country is well off. Let us assume that that is the case. Where is the money going? To the wealthy class, to the income tax payers whom Deputy Corry likes to denounce, and to the capitalists against whom Deputy Norton likes to thunder. It is that class, if the Minister for Finance argues correctly, that is gaining under the Budget. It is that class that is gaining under the whole Government policy. That is, if the Minister for Finance has concluded correctly. If the income tax yield is proof conclusive that the income tax payers are flourishing, then the income tax payers are the only class of the community who are flourishing. Will Deputy Norton go around and tell the workmen that the income tax payers are much better off and that it is only the poor workers who are feeling the pinch? Will Deputy Norton go on, then, and say: "It is a right good thing that the income tax payers are flourishing, as they are, and that you are feeling the pinch, as you are"? Deputy Norton ought to do that. He follows the reasoning of the Minister for Finance and believes in it. He follows the reasoning of the Minister who has brought in this great, wonderful, magnificent Budget. He ought to go around and do as I say if he is to be logical. Let him not say again that this Government is a poor man's Government because he will find no class in the community quite so stupid as to tolerate any effort he makes to reconcile these two absolutely irreconcilable positions.

I wonder if the income tax payers are so much better off. We are told that they are. Deputy Norton is delighted that they are and so is the Minister for Finance. Deputy Corry, whose speech I intend to deal with in a few moments, is very sad because they are. Of course, Deputy Corry is a law unto himself. He has not a very high opinion of the Minister for Finance or of his ability. Deputy Norton says that the national enthusiasm should not be stemmed and that the Party on these benches is stemming the national enthusiasm. The national enthusiasm is to be directed by Deputy Norton and the Executive Council. In what direction? Is it to make this country prosperous? Is it to make this country a happy, peaceful country in which people can live at ease? If that be so, why is the national enthusiasm not directed into these channels? Why is Government policy not tending in that direction? Why is Government policy tending to drive every class of the community into greater poverty each day? Why is the policy of Deputy Norton and the Executive Council not directed towards keeping this country a properly ordered, peaceful country in which a law-abiding person can live at ease?

What is the use of talking about national enthusiasm being stemmed? How can there be national enthusiasm behind Deputy Norton or the Executive Council? There is national enthusiasm in the country—magnificent national enthusiasm. There is a flood of national enthusiasm but that national enthusiasm is going to sweep away Deputy Norton and the Executive Council and is going to put into office in this State a body who will look, not after the interests of the Labour Party or the interests of the Fianna Fáil Party, but after the interests of the Irish people. That is how the national enthusiasm which is setting this country on fire at the moment is being directed.

This Budget, says Deputy Norton, is a magnificent one. It provides, he says, for the unemployed in a greater measure than before. Of course, the Minister has to make provision for the unemployed because the policy of the Executive Council, which Deputy Norton so enthusiastically upholds, has enormously increased the number of unemployed. Therefore, it is necessary that provision should be made for them. In the next breath, Deputy Norton goes on to say that the Bill regarding unemployment is a rotten Bill, that the unemployment scheme is teaching and encouraging men to be idle.

I did not say that.

I may not be quoting the Deputy's exact words.

I do not say that the Deputy is intentionally misrepresenting me but he is, in fact, misrepresenting me. The Deputy said that I had stated that this Bill was definitely encouraging people to be idle. I said nothing of the sort. I said that the Bill made more provision for the unemployed than was previously made but that it had certain imperfections in that the provision was not adequate to what I thought to be the needs of the situation. I did not say that the Bill was putting a premium on idleness as the Deputy alleges.

Deputy Norton got up to explain but he has completely dodged the question at issue. Deputy Norton talked about relief works. He said relief works were excellent things, that they were far better than the other plan of allowing and encouraging people to be idle. I am not professing to quote Deputy Norton's exact words. I am paraphrasing them. I am certain of the impression the Deputy left on my mind.

He did not say what the Deputy said he did say.

That is the impression the Deputy's word left on my mind. The Official Debates will show if they do not bear the interpretation that I put upon them which, I suggest, is the only interpretation that can be put upon them—that money should be spent, not in encouraging people to be idle——

This is deliberate misrepresentation now, and I must appeal to you, Sir, to protect me. I did not use words about encouraging people to be idle, and if Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney cannot quote me accurately he should wait until the Official Debates are circulated, and then do so.

The Deputy denies that he quoted any speech. He asserts that he is interpreting the Deputy's speech, and I cannot prevent a Deputy interpreting a speech in any manner he wishes.

The Deputy said that Deputy Norton said that this Bill was encouraging people to be idle.

He said the Deputy said it was a rotten Bill.

I said that I was not quoting Deputy Norton's exact words, and I made it plain that that was the impression left on my mind. If Deputy Norton says that I am not giving expression to what he wished to say, I am perfectly willing to accept that.

Your impression will do as well.

I say that, in the latter part of his speech, when he was talking about relief work, Deputy Norton was right, and that when he was, if he wishes, eulogising the Unemployment Act, he was not by any means so right. Deputy Norton may or may not agree about the words I say he used, but I say it is a wretched thing to encourage people to be idle. The spending of vast sums of money in encouraging people to be idle is extremely bad for this State, when there is any quantity of useful work that could be carried out. If you are going to spend enormous sums of national money in the relief of unemployment, which you have created or otherwise, every penny of that money, except in so far as it goes to those unable to work, could be spent in carrying out useful work, even though it may not be remunerative work. It has been stated again and again in this House, and from the Fianna Fáil benches, that while works may not be necessarily remunerative, if they are works which improve the land in any respect, money is far better spent in that way than in encouraging people to be idle. As far as I am concerned I would say that if you are going to pay a country boy or the son of a small holder six shillings a week when he is unemployed, it would be a great deal better for the country and for the young man to pay him six shillings a week to work on his father's holding.

I want to deal now with Deputy Corry. It was very interesting to hear Deputy Corry completely damning the Budget. I often hear Deputy Corry speaking here. I must say that his speeches very often bore me. To-night as I listened to the Deputy, I was delighted with him. He was damning and damning the Budget. In every sentence he damned it harder and harder. He not only damned the Budget but damned the whole Budget policy. Deputy Corry started off in this fashion: "This is a great Government for the farmers. Look at all this Government is doing for the farmers." He started off with butter saying: "Butter is producing so much for the farmers, and that is all due to the fact that the Government is applying so much out of public resources as a subsidy." Then he talked about wheat and said: "Wheat is producing a great deal for the farmers. That is because it is getting a Government subsidy." The Deputy proceeded along, until he demonstrated to the House that under the Fianna Fáil Government, not a single branch of Irish agriculture is capable of standing on its own feet. Of course the Deputy kept away from cattle altogether.

On a point of explanation——

I am in possession. I am sorry I cannot give way. I listened with delight to the Deputy. He should not spoil the effect.

The Deputy said I forgot about cattle. Might I ask him where would the butter be got without cattle? All my cows are not kicking cows like the Deputy's.

He completely demonstrated that there is not a single branch of agriculture, which is capable of standing on its own feet in this country, to which the Irish farmers can look to make money, unless they get Government subsidies. That is what Deputy Corry obviously set out to prove. He went through all branches of agriculture. He was quite right. That is why I say, for once, he was right, and why I was delighted to hear him.

Can the Deputy name any country in the world that has not subsidies for agriculture?

The Deputy must not interrupt.

There is not a single branch of agriculture here capable of standing on its own feet at the moment. When the Government which Deputy Corry used to attack— Cumann na nGaedheal—was in office— before the Deputy let the light dawn upon him—there was no need for these subsidies. Farming could be made pay and the people were living on the land.

Emigrating every year.

They did not need subsidies then. Now, after two years of Fianna Fáil Government, we have a Budget not regarded as a lamentable thing, not regarded as something that is most unfortunate, or that we have to endure, but, reeling with jubilation, these alleged friends of the farmers come along and say: "Hurrah! We have completely burst agriculture. No section of it can carry on without subsidies and our kind Government are now going to give small subsidies to try to keep agriculture nominally afloat."

Deputy Corry has been talking about a particular part of this country, but I do not think Deputy Corry's knowledge of agriculture is very wide or that he knows very much about the conditions of agriculture outside one very small area in the County Cork. That, at least, is the impression which has been left upon my mind in listening in this House to the Deputy. There is one thing that I would like to impress upon Deputy Corry—that it is by no means what he calls the grazier who is interested in the cattle trade. I think it would rather surprise the Deputy to be told that where grass farms have been broken up the number of cattle fed on those farms has not declined. It would perhaps surprise Deputy Corry to know that the first breaking up of grass farms took place in the County Mayo and in the County Galway in the early years after the Congested Districts Board was formed. I cannot give the exact date but I would say roughly 1904 or 1905 was the year when the first breaking up of grass farms took place. The Congested Districts Board was started in the year 1891. In 1891 there were 105,000 acres of tillage in the County Mayo. In the year 1932, there were 74,000 acres of tillage in that county. In other words, since the grass farms in the County Mayo had been completely or almost completely broken up there has been an actual shrinkage of 31,000 acres in tillage. I am speaking from memory but I am sure these figures are correct. That has been the effect of the breaking up of grass farms. I know that these figures will rather surprise Deputy Corry and other members of the House.

On the other hand, the number of sheep in the County Mayo has enormously declined since 1904 or 1905. But the number of cattle in the County Mayo was considerably more in 1932 than in 1891. What I would like Deputy Corry and the other members of his Party to understand is this, that it is by no means the big men and the big graziers who are primarily interested in the cattle trade. It is the small men in Mayo, Donegal, Kerry, and Clare, people who had what were called uneconomic holdings who were turned by the Congested Districts Board and, on the abolition of the Congested Districts Board, by the Land Commission into economic holders. Those are the persons who are primarily interested in the cattle trade and to whom the cattle trade really means most. When the grass farm is broken up and the small farmer who had say five, six, eight or ten acres of land got that enlarged to 18 or 20 acres it did not mean that he tilled any larger portion of his new farm than he did of his old farm. It meant that he was given an opportunity which he had not before of raising more young cattle and it was to those young cattle that he looked almost entirely for the ready money which was to keep his house going. Now he finds all that has gone.

Does the Deputy mean that the small farmer in the County Mayo is hit harder by the cattle trade than the tillage farmer?

Then how is it that the Mayo farmer has paid 99 per cent. of his rates, and compared with the rancher in Meath is there not a big difference?

I think it is very difficult to use superlatives, but I will say that in my opinion, at any rate, the small farmer in Mayo is at least as hard hit as any class of farmer in Ireland. I am satisfied about that. Deputy Corry wants to know why they paid their rates. They paid their rates for two reasons. In the first place there has been a terrific tradition of ratepaying in Mayo. Mayo has been almost the first or, at any rate, the second county in Ireland in the paying of its poor rates. There is in Mayo a tremendous tradition in this matter. In the second place, the rates in Mayo are not extraordinarily high. I could not tell the Deputy what the area of the average holding in Mayo is though I know the valuation of the average holding in Mayo would be £7 or £8.

I cannot be taken as accurate, I am making a shot, but I would say that the rates upon a holding with a valuation of £7 or £8 are not everwhelmingly high, and the people of Mayo made every effort it was possible for them to make to pay their rates. They paid their rates extremely well. I am very proud of the fact that they do pay their rates extremely well, and I can tell the Deputy that on platform after platform I urged on every single person in Mayo who possibly could do so to pay his rates. If the Deputy likes to draw the conclusion that my eloquence had something to do with that result very well. Deputy Corry and I appear to be on amicable terms about this matter.

When the Deputy interrupted me I was developing an argument which was to this effect: that a person whose uneconomic holding had been turned into an economic holding by the Land Commission or by the Congested Districts Board, looked to the cattle which he could rear as being the only source from which he could derive any ready money of any sort. That source has been absolutely cut away. As Deputies possibly may know, the price at the present moment of a two-year-old bullock in Mayo—as it is all over the country—is so wretchedly small that it is hardly fetching more than the same bullock fetched when it was a suckling calf.

What I would like to point out to the Executive Council is that the result of their economic policy has been this: to take all the holdings which were made economic by the Congested Districts Board and the Land Commission and turn these holdings into uneconomic holdings again. These holdings had been enlarged by ten or 12 acres of a grass farm being added to them. These holdings used to be profitable and used to be a source of wealth to the persons who occupied them. They have now been turned not into a source of wealth but to a loss. Deputy Corry can look at the figures himself if he wishes to consult the agricultural statistics and if he does so he will no longer be of the opinion that the breaking up of the grass farms eliminated the keeping of cattle and he will no longer be of opinion that store cattle and fat cattle are matters that concern the grazier and the grazier only. They are matters that concern every small farmer and the small farmer is I believe larger than any other class in the community.

Progress reported, the Committee to sit again on Wednesday, 16th May.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 16th May.
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