Are you going to take the Money Resolution?
Whale Fisheries Bill, 1936—Motion for Money Resolution. - Public Assistance Bill, 1936—Committee.
Question proposed: "That Section 1 stand part of the Bill."
There is none.
Section 1 agreed to.
Question proposed: "That Section 2 stand part of the Bill."
On Section 2, I want to ask the Parliamentary Secretary one question. Under Section 2 some Department of State has power in certain circumstances to give subventions to charitable organisations.
The local authority is given power.
If that power should ever be used for the purpose of making a subscription in money to a charitable institution, I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to state now that it would be the policy of his Department to insist that such a subvention would be given without any conditions attached or without any right on the part of the Department of Finance to control its expenditure. Without going into the merits of the Bill, which it would not be relevant to do at this stage, I see one danger in the principle enshrined in this Bill. That is, that once a Department of State comes to the assistance of any existing corporation or association, there is a grave danger of the bureaucracy, which it is impossible to dissociate from the administration of State moneys, intervening in the day-to-day administration of the corporation or association which the State assists. Damage out of all proportion to the benefit conferred by any subvention given by the Government would be done if the Department of Finance acquired the right to control, directly or indirectly, the charitable organisation so assisted. Unless the matter is clearly disposed of at this stage, I apprehend that in one of the myriad regulations that already exist concerning the control of public moneys, the Department of Finance might be compelled to claim some right hereafter to supervise the disbursement of any such grants as I have in mind. While this Bill is passing through the House, I submit to the Parliamentary Secretary that whatever precaution may be necessary should now be taken to ensure that it is not the intention of the Oireachtas that any such rights of supervision should vest in the Department of Finance, now or hereafter, or that any such right should vest in any other Department of State or local authority which acts under the authority of this section.
Without in any way wishing to criticise any society which is relieving distress, I must say that this Bill introduces another element which really should be tied up with the machinery for administering the assistance that is being given at present. I wish to move to insert a new section before Section 3, as follows:
Whenever, after the date of the passing of this Act, a society for the relief of poor persons has received assistance from a public assistance authority in accordance with Section 2 of this Act, such society shall make a daily return of the poor persons who have received relief, giving sufficient information to enable them to be identified, and shall send a copy of such return to the appropriate officers dispensing unemployment assistance, home assistance, or any other form of public assistance.
Would the Deputy say if that amendment has been circulated?
No, it has not.
The Deputy may, perhaps, be giving notice of intention to move some amendment on Report Stage. He does not, I am confident, expect the Chair to accept an amendment casually across the floor of the House, particularly as there has been time to submit amendments to the Bill in the ordinary way.
No. I am not asking the Minister to accept the amendment offhand. I only received it within the last hour and I ask the Minister to consider it.
The Deputy is, I presume, referring to the amendment, not to the Bill?
Yes. If I let the Committee Stage pass, it would be even more difficult to raise the matter on the Report Stage.
Decidedly.
I do not expect the Minister to do more than indicate what his attitude would be to an amendment of this kind. The object of the amendment is to place officers who are dispensing unemployment assistance in possession of information as to the assistance which is being dispensed through other channels. I do not know how the Minister proposes to deal with that aspect of the matter. He cannot have overlooked it. He may, perhaps, intend to make that a condition of the grant. In the opinion of some people, it would be much better to have this matter in black and white in the Bill. I ask the Minister to consider the question before Report Stage and to say how he would regard the general principle of this amendment.
Deputy Dillon raised a point as to possible interference by the Minister for Finance in connection with the allocation of grants. The Deputy is, I think, labouring under a complete misunderstanding as to the intentions of the Bill. The Minister for Finance does not come into the administration of the Bill at all. No State grants will be made available in connection with the subvention to societies which may establish or maintain such institutions as are contemplated by the Bill. The Bill enables a local authority to give assistance, with the consent of the Minister for Local Government and Public Health, for certain specific purposes, set out in Section 2, to a charitable society which maintains an institution for destitute persons. I do not think that there is any danger of the things which Deputy Dillon had in mind occurring, inasmuch as his entire argument was based on the assumption that State grants would be given to such a society. That is not intended.
With reference to the point raised by Deputy Dockrell as to the possibility of the overlapping of assistance from a society and from a local authority, I think that that is a matter that can very well be guarded against in administration. The local authority making a grant to such a society or organisation can easily ascertain, through the home assistance officers or unemployment assistance officers what assistance, if any, people who are being maintained or who are securing food or shelter in such an institution are getting. I do not know whether it would be in order for the Deputy to move an amendment on the Report Stage. As he will readily grant, I have not got much notice of the point he desired to raise. However, I think it can easily be covered in administration without the necessity for amending the Bill.
Will the Parliamentary Secretary look into the matter before Report Stage and, if he so thinks, say that it is unnecessary?
I shall certainly look into the matter.
Section 2 agreed to.
Sections 3 to 6, inclusive, agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported without amendment.
Report Stage fixed for Wednesday, 24th February.