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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 11 Mar 1942

Vol. 85 No. 17

Committee on Finance. - Vote on Account, 1942-43 (Resumed).

When I listened to the Minister for Finance introducing this Vote on Account for £13,445,000 I was amazed at the paucity of his remarks in dealing with a sum of this magnitude. One would expect a painstaking effort on the part of the responsible Minister to justify in present circumstances this enormous expenditure—a continuation of a spiral started ten years ago; a sum which indicates further burdens of taxation on people already overburdened, and further additions to the national debt. The Minister evidently feels that his time is so precious that he can devote only six or seven minutes to discharging his responsibility to Parliament in defending a policy which involves an ever-increasing expenditure. He was certainly speaking euphemistically when he described it as a respectable sum. It is a sum which involves intolerable burdens, the continuation of which must inevitably cause dire consequences to our economic prosperity.

I listened to the Minister for Local Government trying to defend this expenditure. One is tempted to ask him whether the circular letter that emanated from his Department, and which the local authorities received recently, was a cynical joke. He has the cheek and audacity to lecture local authorities on the necessity for economies without first putting his own house in order, and then he comes here and tries to defend a policy of squandermania, extravagance and incompetence. The policy of the Government—which, of course, is fundamentally wrong—of giving direct financial assistance to non-productive elements, is each year throwing greater burdens on productive organisations, and is hampering or destroying the possibility of their normal expansion and reducing or retarding their capacity as potential sources of profitable employment.

While it is undoubtedly a humanitarian policy to make provision for financial schemes to help the poor by direct State assistance—and this can be justified to a greater extent during the emergency—it is, from the economic standpoint, not the best method of attacking the problem of unemployment. The promotion of profitable production, even with the aid of State assistance, is undoubtedly the only permanent solution. We all agree that the cost of administration must be substantially higher during an emergency, but the preparation made by the Government for an emergency of this magnitude is represented by the imposition on the people of the maximum amount of taxation possible from all sources, with the result that, during this emergency, when expenditure must be higher, there is no new source of taxation to tap.

Apart altogether from the incidence of taxation on our people, there is the question of value—the value of the services obtained by the nation for the contributions made by the taxpayer. Are the costs of State services reasonable in our circumstances, or are the Departments of State acting in an extravagant fashion? Is there overlapping of services or have we redundant Ministries? Are we getting public services sufficient to justify the burdens placed on our relatively poor people? Are we aiming at something far beyond our financial capacity, and is our administration moulded on a level higher than we can afford?

The trend of taxation in recent years, the number of unbalanced budgets, the soaring national debt involving higher and higher annual charges are questions which deeply concern the Minister entrusted with the custody of the public purse. After making provision for the defence of the country against the possibility of invasion, our chief concern is the securing of essential supplies and the making of ample provision for the production from our soil, to maximum capacity during the coming season, of essential food for man and beast. The enormous losses in shipping tonnage, the ever-growing perils of the high seas, our position in the war zone and our isolation in trade, make it of paramount importance to the Government to ensure that our productive capacity is exercised to the utmost.

Has this been done? Can we afford to take any risks about our food position? Is our agricultural productive capacity so organised that there is no doubt about the results we are going to get during this vital season? Is the House satisfied that this vital matter concerning the lives of the people has been, and is being, handled in an efficient manner?

The Taoiseach a short time ago went to Clare and said that they could not be blamed, because they had warned the people. Does the Taoiseach think that he, as Head of the Government, can evade his responsibilities and ignore the necessity of ensuring that every possible precaution is taken and that a properly organised effort will be made by the responsible Department to see that our maximum production is going to be effective for the coming year? Does he think his duty ends by merely warning the people that we are up against a tough proposition and that the matter of food production rests solely with the people?

One matter that ought to be examined is, why was the acreage required to be cultivated last year and the previous year below our expectation? Why was it we did so much worse in our efforts to organise production than Northern Ireland or Great Britain? Why did we fall so much behind our expectations in that respect? Was it due to any fault of our people, to the lack of capacity of our farmers to do the job? Was it because there was not a will to do the job, or was it due to lack of organised effort to see that the job was thoroughly done?

I think, during this grave crisis, when we remember the danger to which this country is exposed from the point of view of a shortage of essential food, we have not a proper organisation or a proper machine to deal with the production of essential food. What type of organisation have we to ensure that we get 25 per cent. of tillage under the compulsory order? We have no organisation, beyond a few civil servants who are sent out through the country under this compulsory order to inspect lands and inform the farmers that they must do a certain percentage of tillage. Many of them are men who have little or no association with agriculture; they are men taken from other Departments, men who have little or no sympathy with the agricultural outlook, men who are merely instruments sent around to inspect agricultural holdings and to use the compulsory order to its utmost.

Why is it that we are in such a panicky position at the present time, that we have fines and prosecutions and compulsory entry on lands? Has the responsible Minister pictured to himself at any time the difficulty, the almost insuperable problem, that farmers in non-tillage areas have to face as a result of lack of proper equipment to deal with an operation that involves 25 per cent. of tillage on big holdings? Is it sufficient to make a compulsory order, to send Ministers down the country on a drive for food production, to make a general appeal, and for the Government to feel that their responsibility ends there and for the Head of the Government, in a few instances, to blame farmers for lack of patriotism and for another Minister to abuse farmers for hoarding wheat? Is it reasonable to expect farmers in the non-tillage districts and in the dairying districts of this country to do this work —men who have no experience of tillage operations, and men who have no equipment with which to do that tillage—unless they are provided with the necessary facilities? Speaking as a tillage farmer, I say that 25 per cent. of tillage of a substantial agricultural holding in this country involves a considerable amount of work and outlay and necessitates a fairly good type of equipment if that work is to be done properly and efficiently.

This situation was brought home to me last week in a very forceful way, when I saw a constituent of mine from North Kildare, from a grass district, and he shed bitter tears in my presence. In fact, he is a man who owns a big grass farm, who is doing a certain amount of tillage, who lacks the equipment to do the necessary tillage under the compulsory order, who made a sincere effort to hire the equipment that would be necessary to complete the 25 per cent. compulsory tillage that he was bound to do, who was visited by an inspector of the Department of Agriculture, and who was informed that he had got so many days to make a start towards completing that work. He had already arranged for obtaining the equipment, the ploughing plant and so on, necessary to do the work on his farm, but the people concerned had a big amount of work already booked, with the result that the equipment failed to reach him within the few days that were given to him to make a start. He was liable for 25 statute acres, and because he failed to secure the necessary equipment there was compulsory entry on his land, and 75 acres were taken over under the order and sub-let for conacre.

Now, I suggested to the Minister for Agriculture, 12 months ago, in this House, that if we were going to do this job satisfactorily, in my opinion, it would be necessary to organise any available equipment that we have in the country for work of that sort, that it was unfair to expect individual farmers to do this work in non-tillage districts where there was a complete absence of equipment, and that it was impossible for them to organise the necessary equipment to do their job. When one turns to the organisation that they have in Great Britain to do work of this sort, and when one reads of the work of war agricultural committees, the vast organisation involved there in tackling the work of food production, the attention to detail by an organisation of that sort, and the work, even outside of production altogether, of reclamation of vast tracts of scrub-land brought into cultivation of cereals, one begins to realise how much we have fallen down, how far we have completely and absolutely failed on the job, because we have no organisation of any sort to deal with that vital matter.

To my mind, it will be an everlasting disgrace to this country if we, with a small population of less than 3,000,000, fail to produce the essential food for our people during this crisis, with 12,000,000 acres of arable land, some of which can be counted as the finest agricultural land in the world. If we fail, we fail, in my opinion, through lack of proper organisation, through lack of proper direction on the part of the responsible Minister and the responsible Department. We are relying solely on the efforts and the direction of civil servants, who have no practical experience of the work that is necessary if we are to ensure that we will have effective production. As I said before, when one compares the results of our efforts for the past two years with the results of similar efforts in Northern Ireland and Great Britain, one begins to realise how we have failed in that respect, and I think it is grossly unfair for responsible Ministers and for the Head of this Government to get up and attempt to blame farmers for lack of the right spirit in this matter.

The failure, to my mind—and, speaking as a farmer, I have no hesitation in saying it—does not rest with the farmers of this country, but rests with the Government and with the responsible Ministry. First of all, take the position as it exists. What sort of organisation have we to deal with credit problems and with seed problems? We have none. That responsibility is thrown back on local authorities. The financing of it is thrown back on local authorities. Is that as it should be during this crisis— pushing the responsibility on to local authorities? This matter of an expansion in tillage operations of this sort is one that involves a considerable amount of capital expenditure, and surely to goodness there ought to be a central organisation to deal with credit problems and with seed problems. There is no such thing. Have we any organisation to deal with labour problems, or to tackle the labour problems that are inevitably bound to crop up next harvest owing to the drainage of skilled agricultural workers from this country to Great Britain? Are we going to allow the country, particularly in the non-tillage districts, to be denuded of the men that will be needed to save the harvest? Are we going to set up any sort of machine or organisation to ensure that there will be ample labour to save our crops next harvest?

Then, on this question of the price of wheat, we had no end of haggling and cheese-paring on a vital matter that concerned our food, a matter that was essential to the very life and existence of our people. Why should there be such cheese-paring about it? If the agricultural community, and particularly those who have a conservative policy with regard to the fertility of their soil, are asked to draw substantially on the most valuable asset that they possess, their greatest heritage, the fertility of their land—if they are asked to draw substantially on that capital asset, then at least the Government should have no hesitation in justly compensating them. If it is in the national interest that we should draw heavily on that fertility, then these people are entitled to just compensation. There should not have been a question about it. There is no man inside or outside this House but must admit that a declaration of a reasonable and fair price early last season would have made a considerable difference to our wheat output during the coming season.

As to the farmers' overhead charges, rates are 100 per cent. higher than they were ten years ago. You have also many agriculturists in the country hampered by pressure from the Land Commission for arrears of annuities. I suggest that some arrangement ought to be made whereby pressure would be eased during this time, when the nation is relying absolutely on the efforts of individual farmers to put their backs into the job and to get the maximum production from their land. If that extra production is required, it involves extra expenditure, and the money is not at the beck and call and command of individual farmers. If a farmer has to incur extra expenditure for increased production, that is not the time to bring pressure on him to meet arrears of annuities. Then we have had growing up in this country during the last 12 months a new demand on farmers. Many farmers are now being hounded by the officers of the Inland Revenue Commissioners for income-tax. Many farmers who are not liable are being pressed to pay income-tax. The House appreciates the methods that are adopted by the Inland Revenue Commissioners. Whether you are liable or not the demand is made, and it is your responsibility to prove that you are not liable. That means that a farmer who can ill afford it must seek professional advice to defend himself against the hounding methods of the Inland Revenue Commissioners. These are the methods that are being adopted at present, when this country is relying absolutely on the efforts of the agricultural community to produce to their maximum capacity.

The chief anxiety in England during this production period is to ensure that no agricultural plant of any sort is standing idle. It was only by extreme pressure on the part of Deputies interested in the supply of kerosene for the operation of tractors that it eventually dawned on the Minister for Supplies that there was something in the case they were making. It was a menace to have tractors standing idle for days. There is, I admit, an improvement in that respect, but there is room for further improvement. As I say, we lack the organisation that is necessary. The type of organisation I visualise is organisation by practical men who will have the vision, foresight and practical experience to see where delays occur, where wastage occurs, and where there is failure to use our equipment to the best possible advantage in the national interest. Where you have civil servants without any practical experience and without any sympathetic outlook on the problems that confront the agricultural community, there is to my mind a real menace that in this season, which is more vital than ever, the job will not be done thoroughly and efficiently and we will not get the maximum production. I have no hesitation in saying that the effort is there, the will is there, and the capacity to do the job is there, but the organisation is lacking.

On the question of equipment, even still we have certain tariffs operating against the importation of certain essential implements. I think it was a stupid and short-sighted policy that in the last two or three years necessary agricultural implements which could be imported were prevented from being imported by the operation of prohibitive tariffs. Why have we not an organisation in this country similar to the W.A.C. in operation at the other side? The Minister for Agriculture has a consultative council. What use is made of that council? Is it not a fraud, is it not a mere farce, is it not mere eyewash to have such a so-called consultative council; a council which is summoned to meet only two or three times in the year and which is not consulted but informed that certain things have already been done and certain decisions have already been taken? Is there not some responsibility on the Minister for Agriculture to ensure that any spare equipment we have in tillage districts is organised and made available for people in the non-tillage areas? Is it fair or reasonable to make a compulsory tillage order and say to a man: "You have to till 25 per cent. of your arable land. It is your job to find the equipment. It does not concern us whether you have the necessary implements to do that job or not; that is your concern. If you have not the necessary equipment and are not in a position to find the equipment, we will compulsorily acquire the land and take it over from you and do the job. It is your look out to see that you get the implements." I think that is a most autocratic and arrogant attitude for the Minister for Agriculture to take up.

At the beginning of the Great War, when we had no up-to-date mechanical appliances, or very few anyway, the Department of Agriculture organised ploughing equipment and brought it from the tillage areas into the non-tillage areas. I remember distinctly over 20 horses and ploughs going from County Carlow to County Meath to deal with tillage operations in that county. All that was organised by the Department of Agriculture. Is it possible that the Department of Agriculture have not profited by that experience of 20 years ago and that they fail to realise or are simply shutting their eyes to the necessity for organising equipment of that sort? As I said, the greatest anxiety of the war agricultural committees in England is to ensure that there is no wastage or loss in the operation of vital equipment for the production of food at the present time. There is no directing authority here to ensure that wastage does not occur. I am confident that there is any amount of ploughing plant standing idle for days and days at a time because we have no organisation to ensure that it is being used to the best possible advantage.

There is another matter which a good many people have mentioned to me, and which requires immediate attention, and that is the necessity of organising labour for the harvest next year, and even at the present time in non-tillage districts. There is a heavy drain on agricultural labour. A large number of men are leaving the country, and there is a real danger that we shall not have sufficient labour to save the crops next harvest. It seems to me an extraordinary state of affairs that, in the month of March, we should be getting into a panic regarding the tilling of the 25 per cent. of arable land. It is too late to ensure that that will be done now. We are breaking up old grass land which has not been cultivated for 100 years or more. By putting in a cereal crop immediately after ploughing, the chances of success, in my opinion, are very poor. The land will lack the mellowing action of atmospheric conditions over the winter. It is necessary to aerate soil which has been buried for so many years, and that soil will turn up practically barren, with complete lack of nitrogen. There is a definite necessity for early turning-over of that land in order to secure reasonable results. Ploughing of this land at this late hour is almost certain to lead to failure. That shows lack of direction on the part of the responsible Ministry, and lack of organisation. Steps should have been taken to ensure that that would be done in good time. The attention of the farmer should have been directed to the wisdom of that policy. When the work had to be done, it should have been done in good time, so that the farmer would get a reasonable return.

In the old tillage districts, the greatest handicap we are up against is the lack of artificial manures, particularly sulphate of ammonia. We have a residue of phosphates and potash, because we have been putting in substantial quantities of these in recent years. But they can only be used if there is sufficient nitrogen in the soil as a plant food. I am not satisfied that any really serious attempt has been made to secure a supply of sulphate of ammonia. Imperial Chemicals, who make this product—a synthetic product —were simply chock-full of sulphate of ammonia last June and July. The British Government were of opinion that the Germans had their eye on it and that it might be bombed. They decided that early distribution of the supply should be made amongst British and Northern Ireland farmers. It was distributed at £10 10s. a ton, less £1 per ton, rebate, for taking early delivery. The distribution was carried out early last summer. Such a quantity of sulphate of ammonia came into Northern Ireland that they had it packed to the ceiling. It came over the Border to our black market at £40 and £50 a ton, although it cost only £9 10s. a ton.

The leader of the Opposition mentioned the possibility of a trade agreement with Great Britain, pointing out that the British had made an agreement with Portugal and that the Germans had made an agreement with Turkey. He might have mentioned also that Russia had made an agreement with Japan. I cannot see why he should not be able to effect some kind of trade agreement with the British. I am not satisfied that any real effort has been made to arrange such a trade agreement. Are we to continue to provide the British with essential foodstuffs—livestock and livestock products —in exchange for paper money? Are we to continue to export these foodstuffs in huge quantities without a quid pro quo? I am not satisfied that a proper attempt was made by the Government to secure a supply of sulphate of ammonia. Instructing a civil servant at this end to get into communication on the 'phone with a civil servant at Whitehall, or Colwyn Bay, or even the sending of a civil servant across to the other side is not the proper way to effect a trade agreement. Here is a matter which is vital to food production—a supply of sulphate of ammonia. We are getting supplies of it over the Border into our black market at a price 500 per cent. and 600 per cent. above the actual cost and we are told that it is not possible to secure a supply of that essential commodity through the ordinary channels.

The Minister for Supplies told us to-day that he is prepared to give a firm which has gone into liquidation a permit to export certain stocks of whiskey. I understand that these stocks are considerable. I have heard the figure of 250,000 gallons mentioned. It is extraordinary that the Minister should be prepared to permit the export of 250,000 gallons of stimulants, which are badly needed by the British, without making any effort to effect a deal on the matter. The Minister for Supplies told us last week that the continuance of the present ration of flour and bread, with the 20 per cent. reduction, depended on a single, slender hope—a lucky break in shipping. The Minister also told us that 30,000 barrels of barley had been taken from the maltsters for the manufacture of flour. Even in to-day's paper there is mention of the shortage of stimulants in Northern Ireland, while there is an acute shortage of stimulants in Great Britain. This is due to the fact that the acreage under barley there was controlled down by the W.A. Committee. The price for barley referred to by Deputy Dillon last week—£5 per barrel—is due to the fact that the acreage under barley was brought down to the minimum so as to ensure that the maximum acreage would be devoted to the production of wheat.

With a shortage of stimulants, and the fact that malting barley is not controlled, the price of that barley has soared in England. The Army authorities, and particularly the naval authorities, contend that men cannot be expected to risk the perils of the sea without stimulants, of which there is a grave lack in England. We are in a position to supply stimulants. Are we going to release 250,000 gallons of whiskey without making any condition whatsoever? Are we going to take paper money for that whiskey, or are we going to take up the attitude that we will have to get sulphate of ammonia or wheat? On the question of the 30,000 barrels of barley that are in the hands of the maltsters, would it not be a fair business deal to put up a proposition to the British Government that we will convert them into stout and ship it to England in exchange for 20,000 or 25,000 barrels of wheat? Is it possible that we have not one Minister in the Government with sufficient courage to go across to England to put up a proposition of that sort? Is it possible that we are going to continue to export all the surplus food we have merely for paper money? Is it possible that no man in the Ministry has the courage to go across and say to the British Government: "If you make some effort to give us a certain quantity of sulphate of ammonia in order to expand production, it will have the effect of leaving us with a bigger surplus of food that we will undoubtedly export in the ordinary way. What are you going to do about it?"

I am satisfied that no proper effort has been made to effect a deal of that sort. There appears to be no reason why a trade deal could not be effected between this country and Great Britain. Until an effort is made by the Government, and by the Head of the Government, to see if that is possible, it is only reasonable to expect that many people will hold the Government responsible for the lack of the essential supplies that would be available if a proper deal was effected. There is undoubtedly a surplus of sulphate of ammonia in England. It is a nitrogenous manure, of which there is a real shortage for the purpose of food production. There is going to be rigid control of all artificial manures in England during the coming season, with the exception of sulphate of ammonia. The fact that sulphate of ammonia is exempted from control shows that there are sufficient supplies available. It is a synthetic product manufactured in huge quantities by Imperial Chemicals.

The Deputy should not repeat himself.

It is so important.

It is repetition. The Committee has heard about those prices three times in the course of the Deputy's speech.

I do not think it could be repeated too often, it is so vital to agricultural interests. The fact that it has fallen on deaf ears makes me repeat it until there is something done, and until then I propose to continue to refer to it——

The Deputy will not repeat himself in defiance of the Chair.

——with your permission. We were told by the Minister for Supplies that the present flour ration can only continue if we have a lucky break in shipping. We are relying on that one slender hope. The Minister for Supplies may be very fond of a gamble, but I do not think he is entitled to gamble with the food supplies. Deputy O'Higgins referred to the quantity of potatoes available. We had a very big and a very good crop of potatoes last year. They were so plentiful throughout the country that they were unsaleable. I know many farmers who, for the first time in my experience, fed potatoes to cattle this year. There is no reason why some attempt should not be made to use up all the potatoes. Before the war, Germany had an admixture of something like 20 or 25 per cent. of potatoes in flour, which, I understand, made excellent bread. The British experimented with potatoes last year, and I think have some plant for the manufacture of potatoes for flour purposes. We have not done anything about it.

There is no reason why some effort should not be made to use potatoes, by appealing to the clergy to organise classes locally and to get domestic economy instructresses to demonstrate to housewives how such an admixture could be used with advantage. There is a grave necessity to do that and to appeal to the people for patriotic reasons to use an admixture of potatoes and flour in home-made bread. An effort to take precautions of that sort should be made now, because it is gambling with the food supplies of the people to rely on the slender hope of a lucky break in shipping. That is a lucky break that may never come off. If it does not come off where will we be? It will then be too late to do anything about it. I have referred to matters appertaining particularly to food supplies, because it is vital during this critical year to provide some sort of organisation so that maximum efforts will be put into production. The last two years have shown a lack of that necessary organisation and we are now facing this year with the same outlook. I am very much afraid of the results if we do not do something like what I suggest immediately.

The Estimates for Public Services provide for the expenditure in the next financial year of almost £40,000,000. This sum exceeds that for 1941-42 by £789,000 and for 1937-38 by £9,370,000. One would expect that this huge increase in expenditure should have ensured that the various State Departments would by now have become attuned to war conditions. One would expect that results commensurate with this increased expenditure would have been produced long since. Our bitter experience, however, in the past 12 months or, to bring matters closer still, in the past 12 weeks, I might say even in the past 12 days, has shown that this is very far from being the case. I have no arguments to offer against increased expenditure per se whether personal, local or national. I do not hold that increased expenditure is objectionable in itself. On the contrary, increased expenditure could be regarded as a very healthy sign in normal circumstances but when we find the position to be, as it is here, that increased expenditure is met by taxation in the form of a blitz on the pockets of the poor man and his standard of living for projects which confer no social or economic benefit on the same poor man, the dangers of the situation become apparent.

Without going into matters of detail, which, at any rate, I understand is not permitted on this Vote, I might take the principal items of increasing expenditure—the Army, the Department of Supplies, and the Department of Local Government and Public Health. I do not want to put myself in the position of levelling barbed shafts of unjustified criticism at the Army Estimate, but, when we consider that the Minister for Local Government and Public Health took his stand almost entirely behind the Army on this Vote, I hope I shall be pardoned if I make one or two brief references to the defence policy. The Taoiseach and his minions warn us from time to time of the imminent danger of invasion. That is a danger of which I am sure almost everybody in the country is now quite well aware. The invasion could take the form of aerial bombardment, the dropping of parachute troops, with the seizure of key points, or of a land invasion, or a combined sea and land invasion. I sincerely hope that the possibilities of the situation are being weighed by those responsible for defence policy, and that the expenditure on the Army, on its training and equipment, is governed accordingly. I hope that we are not in the position that we are buying rifles for which we have no cartridges, cartridges for which we have no rifles; that we are not recruiting personnel for which we have no equipment, or buying equipment for which we have no trained personnel. In recent weeks, air-raid shelters are being thrown up around Dublin, particularly in the populous centres. I am very glad to see that, but if the necessity for these shelters exists now, has the necessity not likewise existed every day during the past few years? Are we to take it, then, that this is an example of the speed with which the less evident matters of defence are being prepared, or are we to take it merely as an example of the plodding gait of another muddling democracy?

With reference to the Department of Supplies, I think that even the Minister for Supplies himself, as well as everybody else, must be aware that his Department has been a hopeless failure. What is the history of the Department? It existed in an embryonic state for about 12 months before the outbreak of war. At the outbreak of war, it was born and became a fully fledged Department of State. It got the blessing of this House and was nicknamed the Department of Supplies. Everybody was aware, from the very outset of the war, that when the war got into its stride there would be an acute shortage of all commodities which were imported and on which we relied in a general way. A joint deputation from the Labour Party and the Trade Union Congress urged the Minister for Supplies as far back as October, 1939, to procure, import and store all the supplies of commodities which the country would need. A golden opportunity existed at that time, and for the first ten months of the war, of doing so. In fact, a special Department was set up in England to export all the things they could as rapidly as they could to pay for their war effort. No attempt was made by our Department of Supplies during that ten months to get in coal, wheat, tea, petrol, and the various raw materials that we required for our industry. In fact, as far as I am aware, the only thing that this Department has supplied since the war started has been statistics. Statistics, however gratifying to the Minister, however they may fill the empty heads of some of his supporters, will not fill the empty bellies of the people in his constituency.

Last week Deputy Norton quoted the views of a well-known social worker in the city, the secretary of the Women Workers' Union, as to the conditions that existed during the bread crisis. He read correspondence from women living in Patrick Street, Francis Street, the Coombe, Thomas Street, Meath Street, Bellvue Buildings and other places, complaining that they could not get even as much in some cases as one-sixth, in other cases, one-fifth, and in other cases a quarter of their normal supplies of bread but the Minister was petulant and impatient when this information was given to him. He clearly did not want to hear it, and he indicated that all he wanted to know was what the officials of his Department could tell him on these matters. I find it difficult to understand, as I am sure do most Deputies, why the Minister did not go over to London during the past 12 or 18 months, and make some effort to get supplies and provide some justification for the existence of his Department; but it is beyond my comprehension altogether that the Minister will not take a ramble round the streets of his own constituency and get an idea of the position, as he certainly will get an idea, if he does so. He did not like to be told last week that old women, sagging at the knees with hunger, had to stand in bread queues 100 yards long for as long as five hours in order to get a loaf of bread and that some of them had to be carried away in ambulances and brought to our city hospitals. These were unpleasant things for him to be told. The Minister does not want to know these things, but the sooner he knows them, the sooner will he realise the necessity for taking steps to deal with the situation which is now becoming definitely dangerous.

Last week, the Minister told Deputy O'Higgins that the reason for his so consistently ignoring the Dáil and using the radio when he has an announcement in relation to his Department to make—and that means, of course, an announcement of some commodity in short supply—was for the purpose of getting in touch with Pat Murphy. That was the most expeditious manner of getting in touch with Pat Murphy. His own memory must be very short, or he must think that our memories are very short, because, about two months ago, in an interview given by him to Mrs. Anthony Eden's newspaper, the Yorkshire Post, he informed every Tom, Dick and Harry in the North of England as to what the bread situation here was. I do not know whether that was for the purpose of letting the Pat Murphys in the North of England know what the situation was, and of thereby keeping them at their jobs there, or what useful purpose he thought could be served by such an interview, but it is interesting to note at any rate that in that interview the position in regard to the bread situation here was made very clear. An acute bread shortage was foreshadowed in it and a rationing scheme for bread was referred to.

The Minister seems to be content to rely for the time being on the shopkeepers to distribute what bread and flour exist. The only reason for his doing that is that his Department is hopelessly unprepared. The fact is that they have not got the ration cards ready, and if they were ready, as they certainly should be, the rationing scheme would go ahead now. He said that no scheme of rationing will get over a shortage. That is apparent; we all know that; but I am sure that he will not disagree with the contention that a rationing scheme will at least secure an equitable distribution of what there is to go round.

I was hoping that on this Vote on Account it might be possible to get some indication as to the policy of the Local Government Department in relation to the school-meals issue. The only policy adopted by the Department so far has been the purely negative policy of rejecting suggestions of help from whatever source. Various offers have been made by various people in Dublin of assistance in the initiation of this scheme of giving a hot meal to hungry school children, of whom there are approximately 30,000 in Dublin. Last week, the Justice Wylie Goodwill kitchens offered their assistance and the Irish Canning Association offered 5,000 ox-tails to help the scheme. I believe that 20 tons of bones with meat on them are being thrown to rats every day in Dublin for the purpose of making fertiliser, while the Minister for Local Government mouths about the adequacy of a meal consisting of a third of a pint of milk and a dry, unpalatable brown bun. One third of a pint of milk is about the amount a three months old infant requires for a single meal in the day, in which there are four or five meals. He makes the point that there is no need for a hot school meal and says that milk is an unrivalled article of diet for children. Nobody disputes the value of milk as an article of diet, but is the Minister so stupid as to make the claim that milk, as a single article of diet, has any advantage over a composite meal of soup, a little meat and mixed vegetables—a diet which contains the carbohydrates, proteins, fats, mineral salts and accessory foodstuffs which are essential for young children?

The position in Dublin at the moment in this respect is that a strike is imminent. The parents of the children are seriously weighing the question as to whether or not they will keep their children from school, and anybody in touch with the situation and knowing the realities of it will have no hesitation whatever in urging them to take that course. All the relevant facts have long since been put before the Minister for Local Government and he has displayed no readiness or disposition to get on with the job, or to let others get on with it. Nobody wants his help; all that is wanted from him is the word "go". In reply to Deputy Byrne, junior, last week, in relation to school meals, he threw out the suggestion that the permission given by the Minister for Education to school managers to extend the mid-day interval by an hour and a half was a solution of the problem. It is nothing of the kind, of course. The Minister for Education has not even the gumption to make the order compulsory. He left it entirely to the discretion of the school managers.

I know how the vote in one particular school has been taken on this matter. The school manager walked into the class-rooms—this is one of the few schools which are not prepared to avail of it—and said: "Those who are in favour of staying in until 4 o'clock, put up their hands," and, of course, the vote was overwhelmingly in favour of not staying in and of not extending the interval. The school principal, a relative of the school manager, interviewed the parents and asked them if they wanted to forgo the bun and the milk. Of course they said "No", and the school manager and the school principal decided: "The plebiscite has indicated that the children do not want to go home or want the extra hour and a half mid-day interval, and that the mothers do not want them to go home."

Now, everything as far as the operation of this scheme is concerned is ready in Dublin. Already there are 67 out of 216 schools in the Dublin County Borough availing themselves of the School Meals Act, and up to a few days ago 27,000 meals, consisting of milk and a bun, were being served daily in these 67 schools. For a very considerable time past, 12 schools have been giving hot meals to 2,300 school children. The Minister for Local Government and Public Health must have been unaware of this when he was advancing his alleged strong moral grounds against the communal feeding of school children. At the moment, there are 55 schools distributing milk and a bun to 24,700 children. Fifteen of these 55 schools could be equipped with kitchens to provide meals for 7,400 children, leaving 40 schools and 17,240 children to be fed. The corporation emergency cooking service is ready. The scheme could be got going within a period of 24 hours. I sincerely hope that the Parliamentary Secretary or the Minister for Local Government and Public Health, will, before this debate closes, indicate what he is going to do about it.

We have before us a Vote on Account for £39,000,000. This, with the addition of the other Votes, will eventually amount to £44,000,000 or £45,000,000 or perhaps more, representing an individual tax on every man, woman and child in this State of £15, or, if we take an average family of five, a tax of £75 per family to govern this State. I wonder do Deputies think it is within the capacity of the country to stand a taxation at this rate. It is inevitable, of course, that in a period of emergency, such as the present, there should be increased taxation, but long before the emergency period came about taxation here was being increased year by year. In fact, it was many millions higher before the advent of the emergency than it was when this Government came into office. The disparity shown in the taxation figures as between 1932 and 1942 does not represent the whole situation. In fact, the position is much worse than a comparison of these figures would show because there were certain liabilities, such as the land annuities, local loans and other things for which the previous Government was liable, that this Government was happily relieved of. In addition, this Government received larger sums of moneys from customs duties and there is an increase in indirect taxation from tariffs and other protective duties, so that I think I am justified in saying that the disparity as between the figures for 1932 and 1942 is really much greater than that represented on paper.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce, when speaking in this debate, devoted his remarks almost entirely to the £9,000,000 allocated for defence, and rather taunted members on this side as to whether they could offer any objection to an increase in taxation under that head. As the Minister knows well, there is no objection in any part of the House to give all the money that is legitimately required for the defence of the country. I maintain, however, that, leaving aside the large sums required for that purpose, the amount of taxation that is being levied on the people is altogether beyond their capacity to bear or of the country to produce. Why do I say that? Personally, I am of the opinion that it is largely due to the policy which the Government have pursued in the last ten years—the myth of self-sufficiency. They laboured year in and year out to make the country self-sufficient in everything, but when faced with the greatest emergency this or any other country has known, we found that, instead of being self-sufficient, we were really in a most dependent position for supplies on outside countries. There is scarcely an article of necessity that we are not short of. This policy of self-sufficiency has not only cost the country innumerable millions but has increased the cost of living beyond all reason, necessitating the provision of immense sums to keep the unfortunate working classes in any degree of comfort and to provide for those out of work.

It is, however, in relation to the needs of the people and the distribution of supplies that most fault can be found with the Government. If this policy of self-sufficiency had not been pursued to the extent to which it was by the Government, I believe that the ordinary traders and merchants would, if unhampered by tariffs and Government regulations, have made far better provision to meet the needs of the emergency than the Government have attempted to do. They would, I believe, if left to themselves, have laid in stocks of goods sufficient to tide the country over at least a few years. The Government have for years been attempting to prove that this country could be made self-sufficient not only in regard to food but to manufactured articles. The fact, however, in regard to food supplies is that we now find ourselves in the position that there is not enough food for the people although the emergency has only been on us for a year or two. We find the Ministry almost in a state of panic. One Minister states that the position is such that we are facing, possibly, a compulsory reduction in the dairy herds and cattle population. Another Minister says that pigs cannot be raised, as we cannot encroach on the food of the people. The Taoiseach himself, speaking in Ennis, was probably the greatest alarmist of all. In face of these statements, how can the ordinary person be at all placid in his summing up of the situation? The whole country is living on the dole: there is not a class not subsidised, from the manufacturer to the farmer and down to the labourer.

I believe that we are the victims of subsidisation. Never an advocate of the policy of extreme subsidisation myself, I feel that we have reaped the fruits of that policy carried on excessively during ten years, until now, in the period of emergency, we find that whatever we require in the way of food and materials necessary for the nation cannot be got without increasing subsidisation. If there are improvements that any side of the House might suggest for the administration of this State in regard to the needs of the people, they scarcely can be brought forward without the added inducement of an extra subsidy. When the farmers were forced by circumstances to make a supreme effort, during the last year or two, to provide food for the nation, it became necessary that a greater amount of money should be spent in subsidising the products of the farmers, because the peak of expenditure on production was so high—due again to the policy I have been criticising—that foodstuffs could not be produced and sold here at a reasonable price without the assistance of the Government.

When, due largely to the Opposition in this Dáil and the force of public opinion outside, the Government eventually came to the conclusion that a fair price, considering the cost of production at present, should be paid for that essential commodity, wheat, it came too late to produce the quantity one would have expected that price to produce. As Deputy Dillon said across the House the other day, we have for eight or ten years pursued the policy of producing wheat here and running out the fertility of the tillage lands of people who had been engaged in tillage previously, to such an extent that, when we come to the emergency and need to produce it at an excessive rate, we find that much of the land has become impoverished, as the Government were not able to step in and aid the farmer by providing the necessary manures to feed that land.

We will be told immediately that, if it were not for the policy of the Government in the last ten years, there would be no tillage now. Of course, that is rubbish. The majority of the farmers, even in the non-tillage areas, had some idea of tillage and could start in one year and, with eight or ten months' notice, food could have been produced for the people. Even now, at the 11th hour, when the Government has seen fit to see that farmers are properly paid in regard to certain essentials, there is great perturbation as to the main item of the agricultural industry—the dairy produce section. Here again, because of the policy of one subsidy leading to another, it may be necessary for the Government to step in if the industry is to be saved, by an increased subsidy in that direction also.

I am one of the last Deputies in this House who ought to apply for protection for anything, as I am probably a greater anti-protectionist than any other Deputy, but the vicious circle has worked so far that it has compelled even those of us who had a Free Trade tendency to come in now and demand protection for the particular industries in which we individually are interested. So I say to the Minister that, if our exports of cattle are to be maintained, it is essential that the Government rapidly come to the assistance of the dairying industry. That is a matter for another debate.

On the Vote for Agriculture.

I am not going to enlarge on it now. In regard to the distribution of our supplies, the Government has failed probably more than in any other direction. At the moment, in relation to the distribution of flour, there are many areas where families of working men have been rationed to such an extent that one might say truthfully that they have been without flour for six or seven weeks. I know families of workers—six, eight or ten heads in a family—which have not got half a stone of flour per fortnight for the last six or seven weeks. That is something which it is within the province of the Minister to regulate, as, according to the Minister for Supplies, 80 per cent. of the flour needs of the people is available. Yet, I do not think any Deputy will say flour is being distributed on the 80 per cent. ratio. I hope that, before there is another debate on wheat, the situation will have been so arranged that the workers in every district will get a fair crack of the whip in regard to flour. Personally, I do not believe that will be brought about until there is official rationing, that we cannot expect the retailers to do the rationing in a proper manner.

The turf supply question is familiar to everyone in Dublin, both in regard to amount and quality. It is time we should cast our eyes six months ahead and think of the position for the coming year, when transport may be much more difficult for bringing turf into Dublin and other cities. I hope the Department is seriously considering that aspect of the situation. We have been taunted often with what happened 100 years ago in this country and I would like to suggest to the Minister that the Government should read and digest the history of what happened 100 years ago, to see what available methods of transport there are besides those we have been used to for the past ten or 20 years— trains, lorries and other mechanically-propelled vehicles. There are such things as canals, and I should like to see a greater use made of them in bringing turf to the City of Dublin. Some engineer will say that there are difficulties in regard to this method of transport, that there are several locks between, say, Monasterevan and Dublin and that, without impeding the flow of the water, it would be difficult to get any quantities of turf through the locks. I have been told that already and that there are other difficulties. I do not know whether that difficulty is real or not but, if it is, I would like to remind the Minister that even that could be got over.

At one time in this country, and much more recently in other countries, people have had to adapt themselves to circumstances and to transport goods under very adverse conditions. We are familiar with the system in Canada— not in connection with made canals such as we have but in very troubled waters, whereby goods were transported for many thousands of miles at one time and, even within my memory, goods were transported at much longer distances along those waterways than we would ever have to transport them in this country. They were faced with much greater difficulties than those that might impede progress on the canals here. It was necessary at times to unload the goods, owing to rapids, and load them again. But the goods were got to their destination eventually. I see no insuperable difficulties if the will is there to take advantage of the method of transport that we fortunately have in this country, the canals, and, if necessary, we could employ relays of horses.

At any rate, I hope we will not hear at the end of this year that there is turf in the country but that it cannot be brought to Dublin. Above all, I would suggest that when the turf is brought to Dublin, the wholesalers and retailers should be compelled, if they have not got the commonsense and interest to do it of their own accord, to safeguard the turf and to preserve it in its original good quality until it reaches the consumer. I have seen turf dumped in the yards of Dublin, on wagons in open spaces, no attempt being made to build it up or cover it; it was left there for days or for weeks, and eventually reached the unfortunate householder in Dublin in such a sodden condition that 20 boxes of matches would not set fire to it.

These are things outside the realm of finance, but which arise on this particular Vote, and I hope that when we come to the end of another year we will find that whatever flour is available will be more equitably distributed, and that an effort will be made to get all the turf that is required. I am quite confident that a method of transport will be found if the will is there to find it. Even though we are in a period of emergency, we should look ahead and see what it is possible to do towards rectifying the mistakes of the last ten years, and decide whether we are going to proceed with the present policy of an every-day increase in some subsidy or protection to some manufacturer or the farmer or the labourer, until the vicious circle will be completed and the cost of living will have risen to such an extent that the ordinary person in this country will find it difficult to exist at all. That is a matter which must be considered. I am glad that, at last, the Government have come to realise this, and that they have reinstituted the Tariff Commission, which they abolished some years ago, to investigate to what extent protection will in future be used as an aid to industry and agriculture in this country.

I would like first to deal with an argument put up by Deputy Bennett in connection with tillage. Were I from Deputy Bennett's constituency, until I had at least made a fair effort to get my constituents to do their duty in regard to tillage, I would not come here to complain about the Government. I travelled with Deputy Bennett last week from Limerick Junction to Charleville. The total amount of tillage to be seen at either side of the railway in that district was some four acres.

Tipperary.

Deputy Bennett departed from us at Knocklong. Right along the line there is not 10 per cent. of the land tilled, not to mind 25 per cent.

The Deputy ought to get on to the Minister about that.

Were I from that constituency, I would be ashamed to open my lips here in regard to tillage, when I knew that my neighbours, under my cloak, were not doing their job. That is the position. I would suggest to the Minister that instead of depending in this matter on a few, and far too few, inspectors to go around and check the acreage, use should be made of either the Local Security Force or the Local Defence Force in this respect. There are 40 or 50 young men in every parish who know what land is, who know arable land from non-arable land. Let them do the job. Let them get the returns. Instead of relying on district justices and £5 fines, let defaulters be brought before some other tribunal where they can be dealt with properly. We are sick of this. We had a statement from Deputy Hughes a while ago. He told us about a poor fellow who called to him last week crying because the Department had forcibly entered upon his land. He was going to make a start to plough in March. Seventy-five acres were taken off this man. Deputy Hughes comes in with a complaint about his case. If that man did not know that he had Deputy Hughes behind him, there would be less of this wailing and less of this, "Run to Daddy, he will save you." Fancy coming in here with a story of this poor small farmer who came crying to Deputy Hughes, that he was going to make a start to plough in March. Deputy Hughes comes along and tells us the next moment that that man should have been ploughing last October.

Probably, if the Department has now taken over and ploughed those 75 acres, as Deputy Hughes states, they will only get half a crop from them. The fault I find with the Department is that they do not adopt the proper attitude in regard to those cases. I would make it compulsory on every landholder in the country, if in his opinion he will be unable to till his quota, to give notice before 1st November to the nearest civic guard station that he cannot do so, and I would have that land taken over. In the case of the fellow who did not do that, I would take his land, and it would not be for one year —it would be for good.

That is confiscation.

Call it what you like. My complaint as regards the tillage position in this country is that there is not sufficient compulsion, and in my opinion the district justices are not doing their duty when they come along with their £5 or £10 fine for a gentleman who gets away with failure to plough 75 acres of ground. Let them be brought before some tribunal that will deal with them properly and give them imprisonment without fine. Then we had the old stunt here by Deputy Dillon, who has now gone to his proper place—the infants' class; the A.B.C. Party. It is a good job, too, because I think he needs education all along the line, from the infants' class up. I am glad he has gone over to his proper place.

He is nearer to the Deputy now.

No; I think he will probably come down with the fall of ground like Deputy Hannigan.

Do not interrupt the Deputy. He is going to educate him.

He will probably come down with the fall of ground like Deputy Hannigan. Deputy Dillon told us again to-day about the "codology" of growing wheat, and he was ably supported by Deputy Bennett, whose constituents have not 10 per cent. of their land ploughed to-day, and it is in a period when our people must either get wheat or starve that all this is going on. It is in such a period that we have Deputy Dillon attacking the Government. Why? Because they endeavoured for the past ten years to induce the farmers of this country to grow wheat. That is Deputy Dillon's complaint now, in 1942, that they did not leave this country in the condition he was anxious to have it in, namely that within two months of the start of the war they would have to walk across to John Bull and say: "For God's sake give us bread for our people. Take whatever you want, ports, manpower, or whatever you like." That has been at the back of his mind during all the period he was over there as deputy leader of the Fine Gael Party, and we had tillage farmers like Deputy Hughes having to sit behind him and hear him talk about the "codology" of growing wheat. This thing has been a sinister move on his part during the past two and a half years, until at last he had to be sent to the infants' class. But that this Government did in 1932-33 start educating our people in the growing of wheat, despite the Deputy Dillons and the Deputy Bennetts——

They did not need any education.

——what would be the position of this country in August, 1939? Supposing the war started in August of 1932 how much bread would there be for our people in this country, when we were dependent on the bag of flour Uncle Bull sent across, and we could not even mill it here? That was the situation we had to work against, and, whatever may be said against the manner in which the Government have used their power from 1939 up to the present, at least they must get credit for this much, that they had 250,000 acres of wheat growing the year war started. We hear complaints about the scarcity of supplies here. Deputy Hannigan told us about a special department set up in England to get in supplies. Supplies of what? They had a special agent down in my parish last week buying crows at a "tanner" a time to feed themselves. They had eaten all the vermin that were in this country in the shape of rabbits. Anyone reading an English paper knows that they get three eggs a month.

Crows' eggs?

God alone knows.

Your number is wrong.

They might be like the eggs Deputy Cosgrave gave us in Newbridge in 1923. I did not eat an egg since.

I suppose that is why you have so many crows.

In the past week crows have been bought at 6d. each in Cork for export to Britain. They have eaten all the rabbits. They have no more rabbits to get, and now they are on the crows.

What about rats?

That may happen before this war is over, and I for one will not cry.

Mr. Byrne

Shame! There are a couple of hundred thousand of our men over there being fed, and you wish for rats for them. Shame on you! The Minister should repudiate that instantly.

The Deputy might come to the Vote.

I think I am on the Vote, Sir—very much so. I am dealing with statements made here with regard to supplies, and the advice we got here from Deputy Hannigan when he told us about the special department set up in England for ensuring that they had sufficient supplies. I showed what became of it.

He stated facts. Did he not?

I showed what became of it. They have come down to eating crows. We have not got as far as that yet.

The Deputy's speech will be helpful to us in getting further supplies.

I would not like to see too many crows going out to feed them. I think the crows are too good for them.

The Deputy's speech will help us to get something instead of them.

That is the point I should like to stress.

I think the Deputy has stressed it strongly enough. He might get back to the Vote.

I want to say, in the first instance, that I thoroughly agree with Deputy Hughes. I think our cattle should not go to Britain unless we get essential supplies instead. I think that paper money to-day is worth nothing. The Government should insist on getting essential supplies in exchange for the food products we are sending out. Sulphate of ammonia is required, and there are other things which are also urgently required. Nobody is going to tell me that you cannot get them, with the example of the leather trade before us. When leather was being exported at the beginning of the war, those in charge of that industry went to the Government and said they wanted certain raw materials. The Department of Supplies thought that raw materials could not be got, but when the leather exports were stopped, unless in exchange for raw materials, the raw materials came. I firmly believe that we would have very little difficulty in getting essential goods in exchange for our cattle or for any other products we have to send to Britain, products that are surplus here. I do not see why we should not endeavour to arrange that.

The Labour and Fine Gael Parties seem to be agreed on one thing, and that is that the Departments have fallen down on their job. We must remember that it is only a few years since those Parties, who now have all those complaints, combined and forced a general election in order to give an increase of salary to the officials of the various Departments.

And your Party doubled their number.

They forced that general election and we got back again and we did not reduce our numbers.

But you doubled the number of civil servants.

The Deputies in opposition now complain that the officials have fallen down on their job. Is it because we did not increase their salaries that they fell down?

Did you not double their numbers?

I do not agree that the Departments have fallen down on their job. There are, however, a number of things that can be rectified. It is over a year and a half since I called the attention of the Minister to the position in regard to scrap iron, which was then being exported in large quantities. I know that some efforts have been made to get Irish Steel, Limited, going again. I should like to know what is the position now in relation to steel and iron, because country blacksmiths find it almost impossible to get the iron necessary for shoeing horses.

We find ourselves in this predicament, that there are no tyres for motor vehicles, no coal for the railways and when we come to the horses we have not sufficient iron to provide shoes for them. Undoubtedly, thousands of tons of iron that could have made horse-shoes were allowed out of the country within the past two years. We should like to hear from the Minister if Irish Steel, Limited, will be operating again and when it is likely they will resume operations. We had many meetings in connection with that matter and now we want some action. We want to know when we will come to the period when we can rely on our own industry to supply all the iron and steel the country needs.

Deputy Bennett made some reference to turf. The price of turf is a racket—there is no getting away from that—and the manner in which the turf is being handled is also a racket. Some three months ago the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance told us it cost 9/7 per ton to discharge, cart and restack the turf at the Marina in Cork. I then pointed out that the same job was being done by the South Cork Board of Assistance at the country home at a cost of 2/9. Since then I got a copy of a tender, dated 28th August, 1941, from a reputable firm in the City of Cork, offering to do the work at 5/5. If a reputable firm was prepared to do the work at 5/5, why was it not given them, and why was 9/7 per ton paid? That is a matter that the Turf Controller should give us some information upon. Facts are stubborn things, and the facts are here.

We also heard complaints about farmers and the cost of living. I am a farmer and, while I agree that prices should be kept as low as possible, I cannot agree that the only people they are to be kept low on are the producers, the farmers. While every other section of the community will be allowed to make all the profits it likes, the farmer is to be kept down. I gave an instance some time ago in Cork as regards the position of sulphate of ammonia. I indicated that it was held over from last year, when it should be sold at £10 a ton, and that it was being offered to farmers at £55 a ton. I gave the Minister the name of the firm concerned and the name of the carter who carried that sulphate of ammonia last November and I indicated the place where he stored it. We want action and we want to know if it is considered a fair profit to have such a margin as exists between £10 and £55.

Emergency (No. 83) Order does not apply there.

We are entitled to know what is happening. I further demand that all this black market stuff that is supposed to come across the Border should be stopped. A lot of the stuff that is being sold as black market stuff is not black market stuff at all. It is my opinion that a large quantity of the white flour that we see advertised, and that is supposed to be black market flour, is flour milled in Irish mills; it is there milled into white flour and sold as black market flour at 14/- a stone, or whatever is the price that it is sold at. It is also my opinion that a lot of the tea that is being sold as black market tea is tea accumulated through giving light weight in ounces and half-ounces to the unfortunate poor. It is high time to stop the black market stuff coming across the Border and to put an end to the abuses I have just referred to. There should be a penalty imposed on the people who are offering white flour for sale. There is white flour for those who can buy it and no flour at all for the unfortunate poor.

Let it end. There is only one way of ending it, namely, prohibit the sale of white flour in this country. Whatever we are supposed to gain by way of the cargo that comes in across the Border we lose in the essential supplies that are leaving this country instead. If a lorry-load of white flour comes in across the Border, there is a lorry-load of sugar or butter that goes out instead of it. No man is going to tell me that a lorry comes in loaded and goes out empty. It does not.

Another matter on which I should like to touch is the position as regards oatmeal. I was rather interested in that, seeing that the farmer was compelled to sell his oats at 18/8 a barrel and that the price of oatmeal was fixed at £28 a ton. I met a miller and had a chat with him, and because of the statement he gave me I asked him would he be good enough to put that statement in writing. He did so, and I intend to read his letter for the House. It is as follows:

"Mount Bellew,

Co. Galway,

13/2/42.

"The price of milling oats was fixed at 18/8 per barrel (14 stones). The prices of oatmeal were fixed at £28 per ton wholesale and 4/2 per stone retail, anything less than one ton being considered as retail. In two tests carried out by us we got the following:—

16 barrels of Potato Oats, 18 cwt. oatmeal;

10 barrels of Victory Oats, 10 cwt. oatmeal.

This shows that a miller can with safety give one cwt. of oatmeal for every barrel of oats.... If we could get oats at fixed prices and get the fixed prices for oatmeal we would make the following profits. In our small mill we turn over 50 barrels per day or 300 barrels per week. The cost of doing so, wages, etc., is £15 weekly.

300 barrels of oats at 18/8

£280

300 cwts. oatmeal at 28/-

wholesale

£420

Gross profit

£140

Less ex/

£15

£125 per week.”

This poor little fellow was only making that much on that job—£6,400 a year net profit, but he did better than that. He goes on to say that at retail prices his net profit for the week would be £205 or £10,660 a year net profit on the turnover of £280— 300 barrels of oats at 18/8, £280, and 300 cwts. oatmeal at 33/4, £500, weekly.

How much per stone retail?

33/4—300 cwts. of oatmeal at 33/4, or £500. The letter is signed "James Haverty".

Did you send that to the Minister for Supplies?

I gave him the letter.

And no action taken.

Now, if the farmer is going to be kept on to a strict economic price for what he produces, we are entitled to demand that what we do produce will be passed on to the consumer without that load on it, and that no individual, with a capital of £280 to buy 300 barrels of oats is going to be able to make a turnover on that £280 of £10,660 a year. Those are stubborn facts. There is the miller's letter, signed by James Haverty, of the Mount Bellew Cooperative Agricultural and Dairy Society, Limited, County Galway. There is his letter, and there are the facts. It is time that this game stopped.

Who fixed these prices?

There is one thing that will have to be carried out in this country, and that is a fair show for all citizens.

Who fixed these prices?

I am not concerned with who fixed them.

Oh, yes.

I am concerned with giving the facts to this House, as I find them, to be remedied, and remedied at once.

You appointed the people who fixed these prices.

Deputy Davin knows very well——

The Government did.

——that if he had his way, probably, the gentleman who fixed these prices would have a largely increased salary, or he would if Deputy Davin had his way. That is the fact.

That is a nice way of getting over the point.

That is what you are up against in this country. At present, I believe that the millers are not even satisfied with this profit. You can buy oatmeal, it seems, at the fixed price, or you could at one time, but now you cannot because they put it into a little package and call it something else and charge what they like for it. It has gone as far as that, and I suggest to the Minister that it is time (1) that he fixed an economic price for oats, and (2) on top of the economic price of oats that he fixed the price of oatmeal so that that kind of profit cannot be got —a man with costings of £295 for his week and a profit of £205 a week. It is time that that thing should stop, and it will have to stop, and the sooner the Government gets to work in connection with that particular thing the better. The Government should come along in the same way as in connection with tillage and instead of fines let us have imprisonment, and not be sending the boys and girls to jail: send the boss to jail. Those are matters, however, that need rectification, and need it at once.

I heard Deputy Hughes at great length on the position of tillage. I do not agree with the version given by Deputy Hughes. I do not agree, for instance, with regard to pressure by the Land Commission. From what I have seen done by the Land Commission, I think they are fair enough, and I have never met them yet where they were not prepared to go half-way or even three-quarters of the way to meet any unfortunate man who was not able to live up to his obligations, and I am sure that any Deputy over there can say the same thing. It is unfair to the Land Commission that a Deputy should say that they are using the iron hand in regard to annuities when they are not. It is enough to blame them for the sins they commit without blaming them for the sins they do not commit. When I have gone to the Land Commission to ask for time for annuitants, I found that they met the cases fairly and squarely, and if there was any fairly decent offer made they were prepared to accept it. I do not believe that any pressure of that description is being exercised in regard to the payment of annuities.

Deputy Hughes also dealt with the kerosene situation. In reference to that also I have no complaint to make. Whenever I rang up the Department of Supplies, in regard to kerosene, for some person, I found in nine cases out of ten that the supply had been granted. In the other 10 per cent. of cases I found that the people had not made a proper return as to the kerosene they had already got. Everybody knows that in regard to commodities which have to be rationed there is an inclination on the part of individuals to get what they are not entitled to. In the case of one man, about whose supplies I went to the Department, they showed me the return they got from him and said: "If you think he should get more, say so." The return showed that he had only ploughed 17 acres of land with 200 gallons of kerosene. The trouble with regard to kerosene and other things is that you have a black market operating. Unless there was a definite emergency reason given, I would put all private motor cars off the road. Three-fourths of them are being run on kerosene and the other fourth are being run by big businessmen on the petrol they are getting for their lorries to carry essential supplies. What about the line of cars which I see two nights a week outside the Freemason Hall in Molesworth Street? Any Deputy who stands outside the gate of Leinster House can see what is going on.

You never go in there?

I leave that to you. The greater number of the private cars that we see running to-day are being run either on petrol which has been given to businessmen for the carrying of essential supplies on lorries or on kerosene that is supposed to be used for industrial purposes. There is only one cure for it and that is to put the private car off the road. With perhaps four or five years of the war still before us there is no excuse for using tyres, which cannot be got now, on such cars. There is no excuse for the wastage of tyres at the present time by high power and low power cars running around the country.

Then the cattle dealers will be hit.

The cattle dealers are entitled to their share. The cars I referred to are parked there in molesworth Street two nights every week and anybody can see them. I also suggest that an examination should be made of the cars that go down from Dublin to race meetings at the Curragh and other places. It is time that kind of thing was stopped. We are either in a war or we are not.

We are not.

We are feeling the effects of it.

Why should they be stopped?

We are short of supplies.

That is the fault of your Government.

Not a bit of it. If Deputy Daly's Party were the Government we would have been short of bread two years and five months ago.

We are short of it now.

The remedy for that was given by the former Deputy-Leader of the Opposition on five occasions in this House, namely, to go over to John Bull and give him what he wants and get grub in exchange. That was the remedy he put forward and I did not hear any great noise on the other side about it. There is no excuse for private cars being on the road at the present time. They have no reason for being on the road.

What about the revenue?

Whatever happens to the revenue, if Deputy Davin finds himself to-morrow without a bag of potatoes, unless he carries the potatoes on his back from the nearest farmer, he will know the difference.

The old horse and cart are still there.

Farmers may be unable to take beet to the beet factories because they have no tyres for their lorries.

And there is no coal for the trains.

There is no coal for the trains. Still we have the petrol, and the petrol which should be driving lorries is being used for going to races and to the Grand Lodge in Molesworth Street.

Or to the dogs.

It is over two years ago since I made a complaint here in regard to the bus services. At that time, five months after the start of the war, we had ten buses and ten trains going into the town of Cobh every day. Wilful waste makes woeful want.

You know the reason for that—they closed down the railway branch lines.

I am afraid Deputy Davin is railway mad. Let him not start me on the railways.

You would get off the track.

No, I would keep on the track. Deputy Davin is aware that the railway company also own the buses and they ran the two side by side. The train started from Cork five minutes before the bus. It always got five minutes' start so that the bus driver would know the road, as the railway and the road run side by side. That is the kind of thing which has been going on. I suggest that we should have an examination of our resources so as to know where we are. If Deputy Daly wants to thresh next harvest and he has no kerosene to thresh with, it will be very little good for the Minister to say: "I allowed the private cars to carry on two months too long." Deputy Daly would not take that as an excuse. That is the reason they will have to go.

In certain respects, I do not think that any Deputy here ever listened to a more harmful, a more provocative or a more dangerous speech, taking into account all the circumstances, than the speech which has been made by the Deputy who has just sat down. I think I would be speaking the minds of most decent Deputies and the minds of the vast majority outside if I were to refer to it as an unchristian speech. No matter how much individuals in this country may dislike people in other nations, it comes very badly from a Deputy in an Irish Parliament—the Parliament of a Christian country— to say from his representative seat behind the Government that he would be glad to see the day when fellow human beings, neighbours of ours, would be driven to eating rats. I hope this debate will not proceed much further before the most influential spokesman in the Government gets up and repudiates those remarks. Quite aside from the lack of Christianity and the amount of barbarity that was expressed in those remarks, we must be conscious of the amount of harm and damage which may be done to the country. That may mean nothing to an irresponsible and uncouth playboy, but it means something to the people of this country. The people of Britain, the members of the British Parliament, the members of the British Government, decent English men and women and decent Irish men and women in Britain may not be as closely aware as we are of the hollowness, the emptiness and the irresponsibility of the Deputy. His words, when printed abroad, may be taken seriously and organs and individuals that are hostile to this country may magnify the importance of those words and may stress, in a peculiar way, the fact that the Deputy was speaking from a bench immediately behind the Government. The mere accident of his geographical position in this House may give added importance to his words in the minds and in the eyes of those who do not know the Deputy.

I wonder do they know you.

Seeing the peculiar position of responsibility they hold, I urge the Government to see that as much of the harm as can be taken out of those remarks is taken out of them by a serious and considered Government statement. The Deputy is entitled to indulge in buffoonery when it affects only himself——

That comes well from the biggest buffoon in this House. It is not the first time he indulged in buffoonery.

Sit down, you bounder.

Sit down, you idiot.

The Deputy was going to give somebody a lesson——

I will not take a lesson here.

His buffoonery, when it affects only himself, is tolerable——

The Deputy is the biggest buffoon that ever stood in any circus.

When his buffoonery affects all the people of the country, it is intolerable and should not be allowed by his own leaders. We are dealing here with a Vote the magnitude of which must have staggered everybody who read and studied the figures. I think that this is the first occasion——

Try another one for the Sunday Express.

I think that this is the first occasion on which the taxpayers have been confronted with a bill of this immensity. We have got to ask ourselves: Whom does it affect? Who are the taxpayers? What is the explanation? Times have changed in the past ten years. Prior to that time, when we spoke of the taxpayers, we spoke of the stronger members of the community. We referred to people who paid income-tax. Indirect taxation was practically unknown. The masses of the people—the poorer people of the community—contributed very little to the pool of taxation. Only in respect of beer, spirits, tobacco and a few articles of that kind were the poor tax payers. In the past ten years, there has been an overwhelming change.

More money was wanted for everything. More people became taxpayers, as one day followed another, until it is true, I think, to say that, of the increased taxation necessary to meet the increased expenditure of the past nine or ten years, a very considerable amount has been secured indirectly— by the taxation of the people according to their consumption. We have now reached a position where an increased bill of £1,000,000 or £2,000,000 or £500,000 is not alone the concern of the big income-tax payer but very much more acutely the concern of the humblest and poorest people in our land. That being so, it is right and proper that an assembly such as this should, in a rather vehement way, examine, inquire and ask the reason for every single increase in expenditure. That is also a reason why Ministers should be strictly honest and very open with both the House and the people when explaining, or pretending to explain, the reasons for vast increases in taxation.

The Minister for Local Government and Public Health spoke in the course of this debate. By direct statement and by implication, anybody who had not closely studied these figures and who was not conversant with the thousand and one currents of increased expenditure in recent years, would be led to believe, by the Minister's speech, that the appalling and alarming increase in taxation was solely attributable to expenditure on the Defence Forces. That statement is definitely misleading—so misleading that it goes to the borderline of being a dangerous untruth. When I got this Book of Estimates and this Vote on Account, I happened to pull down the only Book of Estimates of a past date which I had within reach. It happened to be the Book of Estimates for the year 1927-28. Comparing it with the book for 1942-43, I found that the increased expenditure on the Army, as between 1927 and the coming year, amounted to £7,000,000—an enormous sum, which it will be very difficult to find. But I found that the total demand, as between that year and the coming year, had gone up by £17,000,000. So that the Army is responsible for £7,000,000, and forces and factors not in any way associated with the Army are responsible for the extra £10,000,000 to be placed on the backs of the people, poor and rich.

As a Deputy who is agreeable and willing in a time of danger to take responsibility for every halfpenny of that extra £7,000,000 required for the Army, I am bound to say that a State in hard times should be run like a business or a home in hard times and that, if money which it is difficult to find is required in one direction, there should be retrenchment elsewhere. Is there anybody in this country capable of saying "No"? We can see in a comprehensive Vote, like the Vote on Account, in a very striking and significant way, what never occurs to us when discussing Estimates one by one. When we discuss Estimates one by one, we see a plausible and, possibly, good case for increasing the amount of money required for each one of those Estimates. It is only when we get the whole lot in tabloid form that we see the dangerous road we are treading and the disaster that may be at the end of the road for us. A person's attention may be called in his own home to the fact that in the principal room the furniture is decrepit, the hangings in bad condition and that refurnishing is required. That will cost £100 and he has £100 to spend. He may be inclined to say that he will go ahead as he will be able to find the £100. Then he goes down to the kitchen and he is told that the range is antique and beyond repair and that it would be advisable to put in an Aga cooker at a cost of about £100. There is a perfectly good case for the front room and a sound case can be made for the kitchen. The man in question may be living on four wheels; he may find that his motor is on the point of breaking down. His existence may depend on the motor. He is told that if he trucks it in he will get a new motor at a cost of £100. Any one of these three things, taken alone, is sound expenditure. Meeting the whole three at the same time spells bankruptcy. That is what is going on here. When we must of necessity, if only for the amount of mental ease it gives our people, spend more on the Army, we choose that particular time to spend more on everything else. And Ministers tell the people that the increased taxation is due to the increased cost of the Army. As between the year this Ministry took over and the coming year the increased cost of public services as shown by the Estimates is about £18,000,000.

The difference between the cost of the Army as shown in the Book for the coming year and in 1931 is £7,000,000. There is an increase of £11,000,000 outside and clearly distinct and remote from the Army. The cat around this House in the past used to be social services. To-day it is military services. Neither of these cats is the animal which should be whipped. Neither of these things is the real cause of the mounting, bounding, demands for taxation. The real cause and the real explanation is that the brakes are off, that the machine is running away with the men and that the men are running away with the money of the people. I took a rather hasty glance through the Estimates and a number of the sub-heads, one after the other, hit me in the eye—things that could not be remotely associated with either military requirements or social services. In the two volumes I happened to have—that for 1927, and that for the coming financial year—I took a number of sub-heads just to see the trend of affairs. Take the Dáil itself. The Dáil and the Seanad cost £98,000 in 1927. The Dáil and the Seanad, reduced in numbers, will cost £124,000 in the coming year. The difference is £26,000. That has nothing to do with social services or defence. I thought of the speeches made in the past, of the cost of Ministers living in luxury and all the rest when I came to the Estimate of the Office of the Head of the Government.

In 1927, when Mr. Cosgrave was there, when he was accused of running this country on the scale, and following the example, of a wealthy empire the cost of his office was £11,000 odd. The cost of the office of his successor in this year is £15,000 odd. It costs £4,000 more to provide a seat in that building over there for Mr. de Valera than it did to provide a seat for Mr. Cosgrave, holding the same office, running the same country with a poorer people. The replacement of just one individual by another represents an increase of £4,000 or more. The reshuffle, the replacement of one Party by another in this building cost the taxpayers £26,000 more. Neither of these is a military or a social service.

We come then to the office of the Comptroller and Auditor-General, and we find as between these two years that it costs £4,000 more to run that office than it did before the change of Government. We find that the cost of the office of the Minister for Finance, this watchdog of the taxpayer, has bounded from £53,000 a year to £75,000 a year. All in a few years, the cost of that office has gone up by £20,000. With that headline, what is the hope or the use in that office saying "No" to anybody else? The cost of the office of the Revenue Commissioners, who have only the same number of pockets to pick as heretofore—perhaps a smaller number to pick than they had ten years ago, seeing that we are dealing with a falling population and, on the whole, a poorer people—has gone up from £630,000 in 1927 to £922,000— an increase of nearly £300,000 a year. The cost of the office of Public Works —I am not talking of expenditure on public works but on the office of Public Works—has gone up from £103,000 to £142,000, an increase of £31,000 in the annual cost of running that one office.

The Civil Service Commission used to cost £10,700 a year. This year it is costing practically £23,000, an increase of more than 100 per cent. The cost of the office of the Minister for Justice, which used to be £27,000 a year, has gone up to the huge figure of £45,000. The courts are the same and the amount of crime, I would say, is less than in 1927. The area of the country is the same but the cost of the office alone has increased by £18,000 for each year. The expenditure on the Civic Guards itself has increased by £500,000 as against the year I mention.

The General Register Office—not a social service and not a military concern—has increased from £9,000 to £13,000 an increase of practically 50 per cent. in the running of one office. The circumstances are the same, the administrative area is the same and the population less. Expenditure on the office of the Minister for Education—the office only—has jumped from £160,000 a year to £189,000 a year, an increase of practically £30,000 in the annual cost of running that office.

These are a few of the sub-heads I picked out and the total increase in these few sub-heads alone comes to well over £1,000,000 a year. The cost of every one of these Departments is increasing at the same time as it is necessary to develop and extend social services and at the same time as it is necessary to extend our military expenditure very steeply. What is the end of it going to be? Who is going to take responsibility for that? Is it always a game of double-shuffle, pass on responsibility to the next? Surely there is some man in Government or some group of men in Government who will say: "If expenditure has to be increased in that direction, then it will be curtailed in this direction"? The fact of the matter is that there is not one of them in a position to say that, when they themselves are wallowing in increased expenditure in their own Departments. If expenditure in my house has to be increased to the point of lunatic extravagance, I am not the person to utter a word of advice to my neighbour who is going the same road. The weakness is in the core, not at the periphery, and when there is extravagance and grandiose magnificence on top, right down along the line you will have that headline followed.

At the same time as it is necessary to find vastly more money for essential purposes to ward off starvation from many homes, to ward off danger from all, we find an orgy of ceremonial extravagance of a demonstrative kind, that was never heard of before or since in this country, and we will not take a lesson from elsewhere. At the present moment, Europe is being tortured and crucified because of the adoration it paid for years back to military splash and ceremonial. The gun was the god and the man standing on top of the gun was the highest figure in the imagination of the people, and the price is being paid at present. We have launched out in a most extravagant manner, monthly or twice monthly, on expensive extravagant military displays, costing thousands upon thousands of pounds in money and thousands upon thousands of gallons of petrol. I was present at such, and I reckoned, by a rough check of the number of lorries participating, what the petrol consumption alone for one of these affairs was. At a modest figure, I put it down at 20,000 gallons for a grand march past, which meant nothing, which achieved nothing, but which left the country and the trade of the country the poorer by that amount of petrol.

I do not like saying rough things merely because they are rough, but if we are placidly and quietly to let through enormous Votes of this kind, that bear within themselves evidence of lack of control, evidence of all-round extravagance, I believe we should be false to our own position and false to the people who are looking to us to express their views. Not only that, but there must be some team somewhere inside the Government machine which is fighting against this kind of thing—perhaps, so far, fighting a losing fight—but if we consider the fight they are putting up worth while, we have to show that we are not afraid to stand behind them and to stand beside them. Experienced men, trained men, men who understand finance in a way I never claim to understand it, have pointed out, in private, what the end result is going to be—that if the brakes are not put on at some point on the downhill road, the end result, and a fairly near end, is going to be hunger, famine, unemployment and widespread distress.

Are we, calling ourselves responsible Deputies, just going to sit quietly in one of the carriages with the engine running away with the train, knowing what the end is, or are we going to stretch out our hand and help those in Government who are trying to put on the brake?

I said here before that the fellow who is going the path of the rake, so long as he is spending, is everybody's friend. So long as he is lashing it about, he is the popular fellow everywhere he goes, but the day after the crash he is the joke of the club and despised by all. The quicker the Government give up being the popular boys and begin doing their job, the more highly respected they will be, and, in the long run, the stronger they will be inside the country. Weakness is despicable; extravagance is a sin. Extravagance even with your own is a sin, but, extravagance with what belongs to others is worse than a sin. The Estimates for this year have on every page the stamp: "No control, no vigilance, no supervision". That is the stamp which is on every page of this Book of Estimates.

We heard some years ago when we saw enormously increased expenditure ahead of us because of the war, of the appointment of an Economy Committee, and for a month or two after the appointment of that committee, here and there in Government corridors we saw wise old birds going about and we were told: "That is the Economy Committee". These old birds never laid an egg, or, at least, if they did, the egg was never brought before Parliament. What became of it? Economy is something which many subscribe to in theory, but in practice it is a most unpopular thing. Was it that the fear of the unpopularity was such that nothing was done, that the line of least resistance was taken and that it was decided: "It is easier to keep on picking the pockets of the people. We have a censorship now, and there will be very little criticism. Whatever criticism there is will not reach the public. We can censor the speeches; the papers are becoming smaller; and we can bottle it all down"? It is dangerous to bottle things down. It was by bottling things down that the power of steam was first discovered. An explosion took place, and, as a result, we learned of steam and its power. I do not want to feel that there are any more explosions being temporarily bottled within this country, but the people are being presented with a bill with which it is unreasonable to present them.

I remember when I was a young man, I marched reverently far back in the footsteps of people like the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance, and all these patriotic giants and financial intellectuals, and I listened to the words of wisdom which fell from their lips in many a marketplace and at many a cross-road, at a time when the British administration was in this country, and when the yard of Dublin Castle was big enough to hold the whole lot of the people who were administering the affairs of the whole of this country, and not just three-quarters of it. I well remember the speeches I listened to —speeches which aroused not only patriotic but angry feelings in the breast of everyone who listened to them who had a drop of Irish blood in his veins, with their heartrending stories of the way in which we were blistered, bent and broken with taxation and the way in which we were crippled from carrying on our backs an amount of officialdom which it was far beyond our capacity to bear. In their speeches they said that if they had charge of our affairs we would have fewer civil servants, fewer policemen, fewer soldiers, inspectors and supervisors of inspectors, and that they would run the country with a fraction of the number of officials in the country at that time; whatever we had in the country at that time, were corralled in Dublin Castle and in the Custom House. But when we got control of our own affairs, we blossomed out and have not stopped blossoming out since, and as far as I can see never will. We filled Dublin Castle, we floated out into a bigger Custom House and floated out again into Government Buildings. These did us for a few years. Then we grew too big and had to take over half Kildare Street and three-quarters of Merrion Square. We then went down to Ely Place, and as rapidly as we took over streets we filled the houses in them with officials, inspectors and civil servants of one kind or another. We are still building in a ferocious way to house the next brood that we have in contemplation.

Where, when, and how are we going to stop? Either it will be stopped by the Government or it will be stopped, in spite of the Government, by the people. Are we getting value for what we are spending? Mind you, it is not always a case of getting value. Even if a person gets good value for spending more than he can afford, that is the worst value that ever he got. Even if we are getting good value for the odd £40,000,000 and cannot afford to spend it, or, rather, if the people who are putting it up cannot afford to do that, then we are getting bad value, but are we getting value? Is any member of the Government prepared to say that we are getting value commensurate with the cost of the new Ministries that we have established? What I mean is, are the people as a whole getting value for an expenditure of over £1,000,000 on the Department of Supplies? Is it a Department that has given any evidence of being alert, vigilant, on its toes, and making provision in anticipation? As far as the people, and as far as Deputies, can see from the activities of that Department it is one that, in a vigorous way, slams the stable door every time the horse has escaped and publishes the fact that now the stable door is slammed. Words, speeches and promises do not constitute supplies. We were lulled into a sense of security for the first 18 months of this war by listening to fairy-tales from those benches as to all the things that this new Department was doing in the way of accumulating stores, building up supplies, and making provision for the day when the seas of the world might not be as open as they were then. When the shipping situation got difficult and the overseas line of supplies got whittled down we found we had made provision for nothing. We found that we were not carrying any more reserve stocks than we carried away back in 1936 or 1937.

Now there is no good in being extravagant in our criticism. Reference has been made to coal which is a thing that, in my opinion, would be rather difficult to store in huge quantities, especially if one talks in terms of years or months. Coal was got at such a short distance away from our shores in the past that I would not be inclined to criticise the Department for not having a huge reserve of it. But take, on the other hand, tea. No excuse whatever can be advanced for this one-million-pound Department of Supplies, a Department functioning in a little island country like this, not having laid in ample stores of tea. The Minister knows as well as I do how much tea, in bulk, even an extravagant tea-drinker will consume in a year. Enough tea to do even the oldest person from the day he was born until the day he died could be stored under the seat in front of him. Tea is a commodity that keeps and that takes up very little space. There was, therefore, no excuse or justification for not having in a reserve of tea. Nearly the same can be said of other important elements in our life, such as petrol and kerosene. As regards the things that we are now running out of, at least four-fifths of them should have been, and could have been, stored within the country.

Deputy Corry spoke about wheat-growing in the past. There is no point in arguing now as to whether it was or was not wise to grow wheat as early as 1933. He is entitled to say: "Well, we made the people wheat-minded." Any other Deputy is equally entitled to say that in the first year you grow wheat on land you will get a bumper yield, the next year a good yield, the third time you grow it a light yield, and the fourth time a bad yield. To argue from that, that we would get three times as much wheat off every acre grown to-day if we had not been growing wheat since 1933 is merely a point of view. Deputies may be right that it was desirable to make the people wheat-minded. There is no good in arguing over that kind of thing now, but this is true: that it would not have prevented the growth of wheat, to the extent of one acre, if, in 1938 and 1939, when every boob and blind man could see that war was coming, we had got in ample stocks of flour and had had it stored in the country, at a time when the seas were open and when imported flour was costing very little. I move to report progress.

Progress reported. Committee to sit again later to-day.
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