Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 17 Feb 1944

Vol. 92 No. 10

Committee on Finance. - Vote 50—Reformatory and Industrial Schools.

Tomás O Deirg

Tairgim:

Go ndeontar suim breise ná raghaidh thar £350 chun íoctha an mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh Márta, 1944, chun Costaisí i dtaobh Scoileanna Ceartúcháin agus Saothair, maraon le hAiteanna Coinneála (8 Edw., 7. c. 67; Uimh. 17 de 1926; Uimh 12 de 1941; etc.).

That a Supplementary sum not exceeding £350 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1944, for Expenses in connection with Reformatory and Industrial Schools, including Places of Detention (8 Edw. 7, c. 67; No. 17 of 1926; No. 12 of 1941; etc.).

Tá £690 sa mbreis ag teastáil i gcóir costaisí na Scoltacha Saothair; £466 sa mbreis i gcóir Ionaid Choinneála; £250 sá mbreis i gcóir Costaisí Aistrithe agus £84 sa mbreis i gcóir Costaisí Bailithe Airgid Tuismitheoirí. De bhrí go bhfuil méadú £1,140 ar an Meastachán leasuithe i gcóir Leithreas-i-gCabhair thar mar a bhí sa gcéad mheastachán, ní bheidh ag teastáil ach £350 glan. £3,860 a bhí sa gcéad mheastachán agus £5,000 atá sa mheastachán leasuithe.

Scoltacha Saothair: £117,810 an meastachán a bhí ann i dtosach i gcóir na Scoltacha seo. Má cuirtear leis sin an £690 sa mbreis atá ag teastáil, £118,500 an meastachán leasuithe fán Mírcheann seo. An méadú atá tagtha ar an líon páistí sna scoltacha sin nach mór íoc asta as Deontas Caipitíochta an Stáit is údar leis sin. I gcóir 6,100 malrach a rinneadh socrú sa gcéad mheastachán. Tugadh 70 teastas scoile sa mbreis ach ar an taobh eile tháining laghdú í 87 go dtí 40 ar an méid teastas a tugadh do Scoil an Chabháin i ngeall ar an teine mhí-ámharach a thárla sa scoil sin.

Gach bliain de na cúig bliana seo chuaidh tharainn bhí méadú ar an uimhir nár mhor íoc asta as deontas an Stáit.

Ionaid Choinneála: £684 an meastachán a bhí ann i dtosach ina gcóir seo. £1,150 an meastachán nua, sin £466 de bhreis. Séard is údar leis an mbreis sin go raibh an uimhir ógbhaidh a rinne cortha agus na malraigh a cuireadh isteach san Ionad Coinneála i gCnoc an Chríonáin, agus in áiteacha nach é, beagán níos mó ná mar a raibh súil leis. Mhéaduigh an costas cothuithe dá réir.

Do méaduíodh an uimhir in aghaidh an lae de ógbhaidh a rinne cortha agus de mhalraigh a bhí i nIonaid Choinneála i rith na gcúig mblian a chuaidh tharainn ó 4 i 1939 go dtí 11 i 1943.

Airgead Tuismithcoirí — Costaisí bailithe: Friothadh níos mó ná mar bhíothas ag súil leis ó thuismithcoirí agus ó dhaoine eile a bhfuil ortha suim a íoc as cothú ógbhaidh a rinne cortha agus malrach i Scoltacha Ceadúnuithe agus b'éigin coimisiún dá réir sin a íoc leis an mbailitheoir.

Roinntear idir Roinn an Oideachais agus na hÚdaráis Aitiúla na síntiúisí atá orduithe do thuismitheoirí no do dhaoine eile a bhfuil dlite uatha síntiúisí íoc.

Leithreasaí-i-gCabhair: Ní rabhthas ag súil leis an oiread fháil agus a friothadh ó thuismitheoirí agus de bharr na liúntas a thig ó na hAchtanna um Pinsin do Bhaintreacha agus do Dhíleachtaithe i gcóir ógbhaidh a rinne cortha agus malraigh atá i Scoltacha Ceartúcháin agus Scoltacha Saothair. Taréis íocaíocht a dhéanamh leis na húdaráis áitiúla fé Alt 75 (7) d'Acht na Leanbhaí 1908 (arna leasú le Alt 22 (b) d'Acht na Leanbhaí 1941), táthar ag súil gur £5,000 an teacht isteach a bhéas ann fán Mírcheann seo. Sin £1,140 de árdú ar an gcéad mheastachán (£3,860).

Do réir mar thuigimse, níor tugadh cead le blianta fada do dhuine a labhrann as Ghaedhilg leagan Beurla do chur ar a gcuid cainnte san Gaedhilge na dhiaidh sin, ach mar gheall ar an Meastachán seo, gidh go gceapfadh daoine nach dtuigeann an Ghaedhilg go raibh a lán á rá agamsa, níl ann ach poinntí ag míniú na suimeanna airgeadais, agus níl ráidhte agam as Gaedhilg ach na poinntí atá le fáil taobh thiar den Mheastachán ar an bpáipéar bán atá ag gach Teachta.

As I have just said, if those who have not the advantage of understanding my Irish have a complaint to make, I have only to say that I have simply explained briefly in Irish the headings which are set out on the back of the Supplementary Estimate. The note there, I think, explains the matter sufficiently for an introductory statement. If there is any Deputy whose attention has not been called to these notes, I ask him to look at the back of the Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. A. Byrne

I should like to know if the Minister has done anything in connection with a promise he made to me some time ago. I raise the matter on sub-head (D)—Conveyance Expenses— the note to which reads: "Additional sum required to meet the increased cost of conveyance of youthful offenders to reformatory schools after committal." I should like to know whether the Minister has made any provision for taking these young people from reformatory schools during the summer holidays. The Minister is aware that the schools in Dublin are overcrowded and that Justices have no option but to commit Dublin children to schools in Cork and Galway, many miles from their homes. These children are generally allowed a holiday for good conduct. The mothers, because of their circumstances, which in some cases led to the committal of the children to industrial schools, had to allow the children to go, and at the end of a year, two years, three years, five years, and in one case I know of, eight years, the Brothers and nuns in charge say that these children should be permitted to see their parents, but the parents who are on poor law relief could not afford the sum necessary to travel to Cork or Galway to take the children back for a holiday. The result is that the children, when the school breaks up, are left in the school when some of their playmates have gone home.

The Minister, some time ago, promised me that he would consider the providing of a sum in the Estimate to give these children return tickets so that they could go home to see their parents in Dublin or wherever they lived. A claim in that respect was made from many parts of the House and it was urged that these children having been away from their parents for some years—or even for six months —should be treated like all other children and allowed to go home to their parents, if their parents could accommodate them, and that the parents should not be deprived of the opportunity of seeing their children who, in some cases, have been taken away because of poverty, and, in other cases, because of the death of the father. It is not right or proper that a mother should be prevented from seeing her children because she has not the money for the fare down to the schools to which our Dublin children are sent.

I should like to know also whether the place of detention at Summerhill, that prison, has yet been closed down and whether the children detained there have been found proper accommodation. We read with great pleasure in the newspapers that the place was to be closed down and the children transferred to some institution which the Government was to provide for them. I have no reason to think that that is not the intention, but the matter has been going on for a long time. Summerhill has been described on more than one occasion by Deputy Dillon as a prison and the promise was made that it would be closed down. I should be glad to know if it has been closed down, and, if not, when it will be closed down.

I ask the Minister with regard to these children in industrial schools to see to it that they are not debarred from coming home for holidays because of a miserable few shillings or pounds. I have seen these poor mothers—just as important as any other mothers and as fond of their children as any other mothers—who wanted to see their children, unable to take the opportunity of doing so because they had not got the few shillings necessary for their fares. The Minister was very sympathetic on the last occasion on which we raised this matter and I should like to hear from him on the point now.

Mr. Derrig

The position is that I cannot say that any definite arrangement has been made to deal with these children. It is rather a big problem. The number of children in industrial schools is increasing and if the emergency continues, or even if it ends, is likely to increase further. Extra accommodation is necessary and additional costs are thrown upon the Central Exchequer, as well as on the local authorities, because both have to contribute to the maintenance of these children. I am looking into the question and it may be possible to do something to help the parents. Of course, the trouble is where to draw the line.

There are over 6,000 children in those industrial schools, and, while only a proportion of those may belong to Dublin, it would be difficult to draw a distinction between the children from one area and those from another if allowances were to be made for travelling. I am looking into the matter, and we may be able to do something, but I have not been able to secure a decision so far. I do not want the Deputy to assume that that is a promise that we will be able to give those travelling allowances. All I propose is that we will go into the matter carefully and see if anything can be done.

The House is probably aware that alternative accommodation to the Summerhill place of detention has been provided. I do not agree with Deputy Byrne, or with Deputy Dillon whom he quoted, that it was a prison. It was a substantial house which had been in use for this purpose. The number of children was small; as a rule, only a few children were there up to the war period, and, although that number has increased, it is still not a very great one. The children in that place, who were sent there by the Justices, on remand, were well treated and were under competent supervision by my officers. I have visited the place myself, and I disagree entirely with the view expressed here that it was a prison. It has been found necessary, however, owing to the increase in numbers, to try to secure more extensive accommodation. That accommodation is being provided, and it is hoped that in a comparatively short time, perhaps within a month or two, the new premises will be available, in which case, of course, the old building will become vacant.

Vote 50 put and agreed to.

Votes 16, 25, 75, 26, 45 and 50 reported and agreed to.

Progress reported; the Committee to sit again on Tuesday.