Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 18 Jul 1951

Vol. 126 No. 12

Vóta 58—Gnóthai Eachtracha.

Aire Gnóthai Eachtracha (Proinsias Mac Aogáin)

Tairgim:—

Go ndeonfar suim nach mó ná £251,200 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfas chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31ú lá de Mhárta, 1952, chun Tuarastal agus Costas Oifig an Aire Ghnóthaí Eachtracha agus Seirbhísí áirithe atá faoi riaradh na hOifige sin (Uimh. 16 de 1924), lena n-áirítear Deontas-igCabhair.

Ag cur an Mheastacháin seo os comhair na Dála dhom, ba cheart dom a rá, i dtús báire, nach raibh sé d'uain agam, ó ghlacas seilbh oifige, scrúdú a dhéanamh ar na gníomhachta Roinne go léir lena mbaineann sé. Uime sin, ní féidir liom, sa réamhrá seo, an oiread mion-eolais a thabhairt agus ba ghnáth a thabhairt ar an Meastachán.

Suim £376,800 iomlán an Mheastacháin. Sin glan-mhéadú de £17,440 nó tuairim 5 per cent. thar soláthar na bliana 1950-51. Taispeántar go cruinn sa Mheastachán clóbhuailte an méadú agus an laghdú faoi na mírchinn ar leith.

I bhFo-Mhírcheann B.1. atá an príomh-mhéadú, £22,147. Baineann an Fo-Mhírcheann sin le tuarastail, páigh agus liúntais ár n-ionadaithe ar an gcoigrích, agus sin é is cúis leis an méadú ar fad, beagnach, ar an gcaiteachas atá beartaithe sa mheastachán seo. Tharraing mórán nithe an méadú ar chostas ionadaíochta ar an gcoigrích. Tagann £3,970 de as misiún d'athbhunú in Iarthar na Gearmáine; tá £6,300 de inchurtha i leith ceapadh oifigeach trádála i Nua-Eabhrac, Chicago agus Paris agus i leith Comhairleoir Eacnamaíochta a cheapadh ar fhoirinn na hAmbasáide i Londain. Tá £7,840 de mhéadú ar an gcúiteamh iomlaoide, is iníoctha le hoifigigh ar an gcoigrích, de dheasca an bhreis foirinne sin. Is mír cuíosach mór i gcostas na Roinne an cúiteamh iomlaoide a leanas as díluacháil an phuint, ach níl aon dul uaidh sin.

Notice taken that 20 Deputies were not present; House counted and 20 Deputies being present,

Proinsias Mac Aogáin

De dheasca na misiúin go dtí Stáit Aontaithe Mheirice, an Bhreatain, Ceanada, an Astráil, an Fhrainc agus an Spáinn d'ardú go céimíocht Ambasáide, tá £1,400 de bhreisiú ar an gcaiteachas, gan cúiteamh iomlaoide d'áireamh. Suim £19,510 iomlán na méaduithe sin. Is é faoi ndear an chuid eile den mhéadú sa bhFo-Mhírcheann seo thar meastachán na blina 1950/51, eadhon, £2,637, ná an gnáth-bhreisiú ar thuarastail, méadú ar líon agus ar pháigh na fo-fhoirinne a ceaptar go háitiúil ar an gcoirgích, agus mion-chúrsaí eile.

Mar is eol do na Teachtaí, tá Ambasadóirí dár n-ionadú anois sa tSuí Naofa, san Astráil, i gCeanada, sa bhFrainc, sa Bhreatain Mhóir, sa Spáinn, agus i Stáit Aontaithe Mheirice; tá Airí againn sa Bheilg, sa nGearmáin, san Iodáil, san Ísiltír, sa tSualainn, agus san Eilbhéis; tá Chargés d'Affaires againn san Airgintín, agus sa Phortaingéal.

I Nua Eabhrac táConsal Ginearálta againn, agus tá Consail againni Chicago, Boston agus San Francisco.

Tá Consail Oinig againn, freisin, in Antwerp, Beirut, Oslo, El Salvador, agus Gothenberg.

Tá ocht misiúin anois i mBaile Átha Cliath a bhfuil céimíocht Ambasáide acu, eadhon, an Suí Naofa, an India, Stáit Aontaithe Mheirice, Ceanada, An Bhreatain Mhór, an Fhrainc, an Spáin, an Astráil; agus naoi misiúin a bhfuil céimíocht leagáideachta acu, eadhon, an Iodáil, an Isiltír, an tSualann, an Eilbhéis an Phortaingéal, an Airgintín, an Bheilg, an Norbhuaidh agus an Tuirc.

Ceapfaidh an Ghearmáin agus an Ioslann Airí chun na tíre seo go luath. I gcás na Geármáine beidh an tAire ina chónaí i mBaile Átha Cliath.

Tá an Dáil tar éis comhbhrón a dhéanamh cheana féin lena Naofacht, an Pápa, i mbás an Nuncio Aspalda, an Monsignor Ró-Oirmhidhneach Ettore Felici. Ba mhór an bhris a bhás, ní hamháin dóibh siúd a raibh aithne acu air ach do phobal na tíre fré chéile. Tugadh urraim ardphrealáide don Mhonsignor Felici, agus cion carad.

Tá soláthar sa Mheastachán seo le haghaidh Seirbhíse Faisnéise. Is é méid atá sa tsoláthar sin, deontas i gcabhair £25,000 don Ghníomhaireacht Nuachta Éireannach, £10,000 le haghaidh ullmhú, ceannach agus leathadh eolais, agus le haghaidh costas na foirne faisnéise sa bhaile agus i dtrí cinn d'oifigí thar lear. Corpraíodh an Ghníomhaireacht Nuachta i Márta, 1950. Go dtí an 31ú de Mhárta, 1951, caitheadh tuairim £29,000 uirthi agus thuill sí £1,150. Déanfaidh mé mo dhícheall mar adúirt mé cheana sa Dáil le go ndéanfar an £25,000 atá á iarraidh i mbliana a chaitheamh ar chuma go n-éireoidh leis an nGíomhaireacht ar mhaithe leis an náisiún agus go méadófar a cumas tuillimh.

Tá an Roinnteán Faisnéise sa Roinn ag leanúint i gcónaí dá iarrachta chun an easpa eolais faoi Éirinn atá ar thíortha eile a leigheas. Tá an méid cóipeanna den bhFeasacháin seachtainiúil ardaithe ó 3,000 cóip sa tseachtain go dtí 5,000. Baintear leas as an ábhar a bhíos sa bhFeasachán i roinnt mhaith tíortha; orthu sin tá na Stáit Aontaithe, Ceanada, an Astráil, an Bhreatain Mhór, na Tíortha Lochlannacha, an Bheilg agus an Hollann. Foilsítear feasacháin bhreise i Washington agus i Canberra. Cuireadh tús, tamaillín ó shoin, le feasachán míosúil sa bhFraincis. Leanadh den obair rialta a ghabhas le hullmhú agus scaipeadh ábhair a bhaineas leis an Teorainn, den chomhoibriú le foilsitheoirí agus nuachtóirí eachtrannacha, de choinneáil lán-eolais leis na hoifigigh thar lear agus de na bealaí eile chu tuiscint níos fearr ar Éirinn agus ar dearcadh a chothú.

Is eol do na Teachtaí gur socraíodh chomh fada siar le 1947, Coiste Caidrimh Chultúra a bhunú agus gur soláthraíodh £10,000 i meastacháin na blina ina dbiaidh sin le haghaidh obair an Choiste. Bunaíodh an Coiste i mí Eanáir, 1949, agus tá cuntas sa tuarascáil bhliantúil chun na Dála ar a chuid oibre maidir leis na mín-ealaíona, taispeántais ghrianghrafa, scannáin, foilsiú leabhrán, bronnadh leabhar, ceol, drámaíocht, bearta oideachais agus bearta ilghnéitheacha. Bheireann na comhaltaí uile a seirbhís in aisce agus tá ár mór-bhuíochas ag dul dóibh. Fuair an Cathaoirleach, an Breitheamh Gabhánach Ó Dubhthaigh, bás le déanaí. Ní hiad a chomh-bhreithiúin amháin a aireos uathu é. Is mór an bhris, freisin, do chomhaltaí an Choiste agus don Roinn Ghnóthaí Eachtracha a bhás.

Is iad na gnéithe dár gcúrsaí trádála coigríche is mó is cúis chúraim don Roinn ná conartha trádála a dhéanamh agus d'athnuachaint, ár n-ionadaithe tráchtála thar lear, cúnamh a sholáthar do ghnóluchta Éireannacha agus do dhaoine príobháideacha Éireannacha— gnéithe a chabhródh le forbairt ár dtrádála chun na coigríche. Cé go mb'fhiú £72.4 m. na hearraí a honnmhuiríodh i 1950, is é sin trí oiread an mhéid ab fhiú iad i 1938, níor honnmhuiríodh, do réir méide, ach 1% níos mó ná mar honnmhuiríodh sa bhlain sin. Praghsanna níos áirde is cúis ar fad, beagnach, leis an ardú seo ar luach na n-earraí a honnmhuiríodh. Mar sin féin, is ábhar sásaimh dhúinn, a thabhairt faoi deara, den chéad uair ó thosaigh an cogadh, gur onnmhuiríomar an oiread is bhíodh á onnmhuiriú againn roimh an gcogadh. Luach £1.5 m. d'onnmhuiríomar ar dolaerí i 1950. Luach £6 m. d'onnmhuiríomar go dtí tíortha eile, seachas an Bhreatain Mhór, atá san Eagras um Chomhar Eacnamaíochta san Eoraip.

De bharr Cabhair Mharshall d'fhionraí faoi Bhealtaine i mbliana, is riachtanaí anois ná riamh go méadóimis ar an saothrú dolaerí ar gach slí is féidir. I bhfómhar na bliana 1950, ceapadh Oifigigh Thrádála speisialta sa Chonsulacht Ghinearálta i Nua Eabhrac agus sa Chonsulacht i Chicago. Is é aon-chúram na n-oifigeach sin ár n-onnmhuirithe chun na Stát Aontaithe d'fhorbairt. Sara ndeachadar i mbun dualgas, thugadar cuairt ar ghnóluchta tionscail na hÉireann le heolas a chur, iad féin, ar na táirgí atá le díol ag Éirinn. Ceapadh Oifigeach Trádála i bParis freisin agus cabhróidh sin lenár n-onnmhuirithe chun tíortha san Eagras um Chomhar Eacnamaíochta san Eoraip d'fhorbairt.

Tá tábhacht ar leith, maidir le forbairt ár dtrádála coigríche, ag baint le hathoscailt Oifig na hÉireann sa nGearmáin. Roimh an gcogadh, bhí an Ghearmáin ar cheann de na príomhmhargaidh coigríche a bhí againn; agus, d'ainneoin na ndeacrachtaí ó thaobh comhardú íocaíochtaí, atá ag cur as don nGearmáin faoi láthair, tá méadú sásúil tagtha ar ár dtrádáil chun na tíre sin. Ní móide go bhfuil aon chás eile ann a chruthaíos níos soiléire a thábhachtaí atá sé cúnamh ionadaí oifigiúil a bheith le fáil, ar an láthair, chun margántaíocht a dhéanamh leis na húdaráis áitiúla, agus chun eolas agus comhairle a thabhairt.

Rinne mé tagairt ar ball do Chabhair Mharshall d'fhionraí. Ba mhaith liom a chur in iúl, thar ceann an Rialtais seo, go bhfuilimídne, mar bhí an Rialtais a chuaigh romhainn, fíor-bhuíoch de mhuintir Mheirice as chomh heineachtúil fad-bhreathnaitheach a bhíodar nuair a sholáthraíodar cabhair eacnamaíochta don Eoraip, sna blianta contúirteacha tar éis an chogaidh. Bhí an Roinn seo mar lár-ionad comhoibrithe don tsaothar sa tír seo faoi Chlár Cabhrach Mharshall, agus is cúis áthais a chaoine iomláine a comhoibríodh, go háirithe le hionadaithe áitiúla Riaracháin an Chomhair Eacnamaíochta. Cé go bhfuil cabhair díreach chun na hÉireann ar fionraí tá gné amháin de Phlean Mharshall atá fíor-thábhachtach don náisiún, ar bun fós, is é sin, scéimeanna cúnaimh theicniúil trínar féidir linn méadú ar ár n-eolas theicniúil de bhárr beartas caradais agus leasa ár gcáirde Meiriceacha.

Suim £31,250 méid iomlán an mheastacháin i gcóir comhar san Eoraip. Sin laghdú £3,600 ar an méid a soláthraíodh anuraidh. Tá laghdú £2,800 ar an ranníoc uainn i leith costas Chomhairle na hEorpa de bhrí gur glacadh comhaltaí nua isteach sa Chomhairle agus go ndearnadh athmheas ar ranníoc na hÉireann. I gcás an ranníoca leis An Eagras um Chomhar Eacnamaíochta san Eoraip, háiríodh sa mheastachán i gcóir 1950/51 suim £1,300 in aghaidh scair na hÉireann d'easnamh a bhí ar an Eagras um Chomhar Eacnamaíochta san Eoraip tar éis obair na bliana roimhe sin. Níl an tsuim sin ag teastáil i mbliana agus sin é faoi ndear an laghdú sa tsuim a beartaíodh le haghaidh na míre sin sa mheastachán. Tá £500 breise á sholáthar faoi mhírcheann B.2. (Caiteachais Taistil agus Caiteachais Teagmhasacha maidir leis an Eagras um Chomhar Eacnamaíochta san Eoraip). Taithí na bliana seo caite, agus toisc gur measadh go mbeadh méadú éigin ar an gcaiteachas teagmhasach i mbliana, na fátha atá leis sin.

I rith na bliana seo caite ghlac Éire páirt iomlán in obair Chomhairle na hEorpa—ar an gComhairle Airí agus ag an Tionól Comhairlitheach. Nil an Chomahirle ach beagán thar dhá bhliain ar bun, ach cheana féin tá sí ag plé le réim fhairsing chúrsaí. Roimh an Olltoghchán a bhí ann le déanaí tugadh taíriscint isteach sa Dáil chun na moltaí ón Dara Siosón den Tionól Comhairlitheach a bhreithniú maraon le cúntas ar chruinnithe áirithe den Choiste Airí a bhí ar siúl i 1950. Cuireadh Páipéar Bán, ina raibh an t-ábhar iomchuí, timpeall chun na dTeachtaí. Féachfaidh mé le caoi d'fháil ar ball chun go bhféadfar an tairiscint sin a bhreithniú agus beidh deis agam ansin chun trácht níos iomláine a dhéanamh ar obair chomhairle na hEorpa.

Maidir leis an Eagras um Chomhar Eacnamaíochta san Eoraip, tá brí agus beatha san Eagras sin i gcónaí. Beidh deireadh an bhliain seo chugainn leis an gClár cheithre mblian a leagadh amach faoi Phlean Mharshall agus, ar ndóigh, bhéarfaidh sin athrú áirithe ar obair an Eagrais. Ach, ón uair a bunaíodh é i 1948, is maith agus is tairbheach mar d'fhónaigh sé ar mhaithe le comhar agus comhoibriú na seacht dtíortha déag Eorpacha atá ina gcomhaltaí dhe, trí ghníomhaíochta ar nós Aontas Iocaíochtaí na hEorpa a thabhairt chun críche. Féadfar bheith ag coinne leis go mairfidh an ghníomaíocht eacnamúil sin, agus is dóigh liom gur ceart agus gur fiú dhúinn bheith páirteach san Eagras sin.

Mr. MacBride

I would like to say first that I was very glad that the Taoiseach appointed a separate Minister for External Affairs, and that in choosing a member of this House for that responsibility his choice should have fallen on the present Minister who, I feel satisfied, is competent and will discharge his duties as Minister for External Affairs ably.

I would like to take this opportunity, too, of complimenting the staff of the Department. I think that few Departments are as lucky as the Department of External Affairs has been in having a staff which is so devoted to its duties, and which has so much initiative and enthusiasm for its work, as the various officers of the Department of External Affairs.

I feel a special debt of gratitude towards them for the invaluable help and co-operation which they extended to me while I was the erstwhile political head of the Department. It is essential, probably more essential in the Department of External Affairs than in any other Department, that the officers should be imbued with a spirit of national self-responsibility. They have to be prepared to work harder than in other Departments, to make personal sacrifices, even heavy sacrifices, in order to discharge their duties to this nation effectively. Most officers in the Department, but particularly those who serve abroad, have to develop a sense of initiative and a sense of devotion to duty which is not called for to the same extent from civil servants who work at home in the larger Departments. Probably few of us in this House appreciate fully the responsibility which each individual member of our staff abroad has to carry on his shoulders. He has to represent this nation for 24 hours around the clock. Every action of his may bring credit or discredit on this nation because he or she will be looked upon by those with whom he or she mixes, by the officials of other Governments, as the representative of this nation. By their actions and by their zeal to duty we will be judged abroad. I must say that I always found, right through the Department among the young people and among the more senior officials, that sense of devotion to duty which is so necessary in the work of the Department.

I have no criticism to offer on this Estimate and I hope that I shall not have any criticism to offer of the policy which will be pursued by the Minister in the future. I do not think that there is any fundamental difference of policy in this House as regards our foreign affairs. I have heard only one discordant voice in this House in relation to foreign policy and that was from Deputy Cowan, who is actuated, apparently, by a violent dislike of the United States of America. Apart from that, I feel that this House is united in its attitude towards our foreign policy.

We are all agreed that we have one national objective that supervenes all other objectives as far as our foreign policy is concerned. I refer to the achievement of the territorial unity of our nation. I hope that it will be possible to maintain in this House unity on foreign policy matters. I hope that the Minister for External Affairs will always have the full support of the House in representing the country abroad and in foreign policy matters. Inasmuch as there is no real difference as to our foreign policy it would be foolish if we were to start trying to initiate different policies merely in order to create an artificial difference where no real difference exists as to foreign policy.

While I was Minister, I suggested to the House on a number of occasions that, in relation to this particular Department, we should consider the formation of a Foreign Affairs Committee. Such Foreign Affairs Committees are used in many other countries and I think prove useful. I do not think that it should be a formal committee but the Minister might find it useful if he could call together one or two members of either the Dáil or the Seanad—leaving the selection to his own choice, possibly after discussion with the Leader of the Opposition— with whom he could consult from time to time on foreign policy matters and other matters connected with the Department. He might find it useful to be able, very often, to explain certain matters privately to the Opposition through such a committee and thus to ascertain the views of the House. It might very often save embarrassment caused unwittingly by casual question and casual remarks.

I think also that it would probably be of help to the Opposition to be kept abreast of any particular developments that might be taking place. It occurs to me that, in the matter of the constitution of such a committee—which should not be by statute or by rule—it would be possible to avail of the representatives that are appointed to represent the Oireachtas in the Council of Europe. They would constitute a readymade Committee of Foreign Affairs. The Minister will find that I made a similar suggestion year after year while I was a Minister in this House. I did not receive any indications from the Opposition at the time that this course would be acceptable to the Opposition, and accordingly did not press it. I ask the Minister now to consider the matter carefully. From a long-term point of view, I think he would find it useful to have such an arrangement. Such a committee should not have any special powers or any special functions: it should be available to the Minister whenever he wishes to consult it, and for the purpose of obtaining the views of other members of this House or of the Oireachtas on matters that crop up from day to day.

There are a number of matters, more of a departmental nature, which I should like to mention to the Minister.

The first thing which I think it is necessary to mention is the fact that in some respects the Department is understaffed. In recent years the work of the Department has increased very considerably. The outbreak of the war automatically restricted the work of the Department but, apart altogether from that, the Department itself was completely under-developed before. Since the war a considerable amount of additional work has fallen, so to speak, on the "shoulders" of the Department in the field of trade and in the field of European co-operation, together with quite a quantity of what I might describe as economic work. My experience is that in some respects some sections of the Department are hard-pressed for staff. I think that our political division, for instance, needs strengthening. The work of the Council of Europe absorbs a good deal of the time of the officers of the section, and I think it would be a good thing if the staff could be strengthened so as to ensure that equal attention could be given to all other aspects of the work of this section.

I think, too, the Minister should consider the necessity for strengthening our Legation in Germany. Prior to the war we carried on an extensive trade with Germany. Germany was one of our largest customers after Great Britain. We are trying to resume that trade now and we have met with some success in that direction in the last year or so. The Minister would be well advised to consider the appointment of a trade representative on the staff of the Legation in Germany.

There is another matter to which I would like to refer. It is a matter in relation to which I felt there might be some difficulties at the outset and I decided to go slow towards the fulfilment of the particular objective I had in mind, namely the raising of the status of our consuls at Boston, Chicago and San Francisco to that of consulatesgeneral. The first step I took in that direction was to appoint vice-consuls in these three consulates. There is not a sufficient appreciation at home of the importance to us of the vast Irish-American population in the United States. That population has been a tremendous source of strength to us and I think it is our responsibility to maintain close contact with it.

A city like Boston is largely an Irish city. The Irish Consul in Boston occupies a post akin to that of an ambassador. He discharges in the main the type of function the ambassador of a large State normally discharges in a capital. I would urge the Minister, therefore, to seek sanction to raise our three consuls in the United States to the rank of consuls-general.

I should also mention, and I think the Minister will find some memoranda on the files in relation to this matter, that many of our officers in the United States, particularly in these consulates, are grossly underpaid. The representation allowances made to them are quite inadequate and preclude them from discharging their duties as efficiently as they should be discharged. This is a false economy. These consuls incur of necessity considerable personal expenses. An Irish consul in a city like Chicago or Boston is expected to attend many functions. When an Irish-American citizen of note is married, for instance, he is expected to attend the wedding and sometimes even to give a small gift if the parties are particular friends of Ireland. If an Irish-American citizen of note dies there must be a wreath from the Irish Consul. No provision is made for such expenses; the representation allowances are quite inadequate.

In addition I think that the salaries paid are inadequate. Possibly some of these difficulties will be overcome by raising the status of these posts in the way I have suggested. As I say, I took the first steps. I felt that I might meet with a good deal of resistance from the Department of Finance if I were to put up proposals too sharply all at once. Therefore, I took the first step of appointing vice-consuls. I felt that part of the expenditure might be met in that way and that the next step would be a somewhat shorter one. I do not think the raising of the status of these consulates would necessitate an increase of staff. It would, of course, necessitate an increase in the representation allowance.

Another matter which I intended to take up, and this is something I would like to sell to the Minister if I may, was the creation of a Historical Relations Committee attached to the Department on similar lines to the Cultural Relations Committee. That was an experiment that has proved its worth. I think everybody will agree that its work has been useful. Very often I think it is not sufficiently appreciated that the development of cultural relations and the work of the Department of External Affairs generally outside the country are not merely something of a diplomatic nature, that it is work that pays dividends in the long run, very high dividends either by way of trade, tourism or goodwill.

In every part of America, as the Minister well knows, there are landmarks of historical interest to us. There have been very close relations between the people of the United States of America and the Irish people. Our people have played a large part in the building of the United States. Likewise, at various periods of our history we have received considerable help and assistance from the people of the United States. That is a strong and valuable link and I believe that through the medium of a Historical Relations Committee we could set about cementing those historical links. Many different proposals have been put forward either at home or abroad for the establishment of some historical link at various times, such as the erection of a monument or plaque, the writing of a book or the financing of a publication of one kind or another.

I felt it was not really the function of the Cultural Relations Committee to do this particular type of work and that the Cultural Relations Committee should concentrate as far as possible on matters of art and culture. I did suggest—and the Cultural Relations Committee has been working on this for some months past—that we should mark the footsteps of the Irish missionaries and saints in Europe, starting with St. Columban and other Irish saints of this period, but the problem in the United States is somewhat different. It is the marking of places of historical interest, and of political interest, if you like, to Ireland. It is the development of that historical bond which ties 25,000,000 people of Irish origin in the United States to their motherland. Work of that nature could be more suitably carried out by a committee such as the Cultural Relations Committee, which, I suggest, should be called the Historical Relations Committee, than directly by the Department or by the local offices. I would suggest that the same relationship should exist between the Historical Relations Committee and the Department as exists at the moment between the Cultural Relations Committee and the Department, namely, that the committee should consider and advise on the various steps and that the decisions could then be implemented by the officers of the Department where the Minister is in agreement with the committee.

I should like to take this opportunity of paying tribute to the members of the Cultural Relations Committee who have worked without reward and who, I think, have discharged their duties well. I think it is a good thing to find that we have people who are prepared to give their services free to the nation with the same zeal as they have; they have more than justified their existence. It was possibly a new departure in the administration of a Department but I think it was a good departure and that the experiment has proved that it can work satisfactorily. Incidentally, I think that if the Minister could persuade the Minister for Finance, it would be money well spent if the grant which was made available to the Cultural Relations Committee were increased. The grant of £10,000 was decided upon more or less arbitrarily at the beginning but I think it was always the intention to increase that sum as soon as it was found that it ceased to be adequate to meet the requirements of the committee. The work of the committee has fully justified the creation of the Cultural Relations Section in the Department and any increase in the grant would be money well spent. I do not know, however, judging by the utterances of the Minister for Finance in the House today, whether the Minister will be successful in his efforts but I think it is worth trying. I can assure the Minister that, so far as this side of the House is concerned, there will be no criticism, in so far as I can help it, of any additional grant that could be made available to the committee.

Two other matters I should like to mention. Again, the Minister will have to consider carefully whether it is a thing he can do in the present circumstances. It always occurred to me that foreign trade could be more conveniently handled entirely by the Department. Nominally at the moment it is, I think, handled by the Department of Industry and Commerce. Naturally there has to be a certain link with the Department of Industry and Commerce, but I think that better results would be achieved if complete responsibility were vested in the Department of External Affairs and the Minister for External Affairs for the development of foreign trade.

The work of Foreign Offices the world over has been changing rapidly in its nature in recent years. Most of the work of practically every Foreign Office is becoming more and more economic work. The officers of the Department of External Affairs are of necessity in closer contact with economic developments abroad than the officers of the Department of Industry and Commerce. I am not saying that in derogation of the ability of the officers of the Department of Industry and Commerce but it is quite obvious that officers, who are in constant touch with economic developments abroad and in constant touch with foreign trade, will have a better appreciation of the factors involved than officers here at home who only deal with internal matters from the office in Kildare Street.

Likewise I have often felt that tourism would also be better handled, in so far as it is handled by a Government Department, by External Affairs. There would be a better understanding of the requirements of tourism in the Department of External Affairs than in any of the home Departments. I realise, of course, the difficulties that always crop up when one Department suggests that it should take over a function that is at present being carried out by another Department but I think that if the Minister could see his way conveniently to take over these functions better results would be achieved. I am not saying that in order to raise any internal difficulties between the Minister and his colleague, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, but I think an objective examination of the matter would convince most people that these functions could be better discharged by the Department of External Affairs than by the Department of Industry and Commerce. Tourism, of course, is largely under the control of the Tourist Board. It is simply a question of the relationship between a Government Department and the Tourist Board. The Department of External Affairs could be of tremendous help in advising the Tourist Board on the type of advertising and the type of plans which should be made in order to attract tourists from different countries. For instance, too, in the United States, our offices would be in a position to advice accurately on the possibility of organising tours by Irish Americans every year from different parts of the United States; they would be in a position through Irish-American Societies to help to spread tourism in Ireland.

I do not know whether the Minister has had an opportunity of discussing the setting up of an export corporation with his colleague, the Minister for Industry and Commerce. I asked the Minister for Industry and Commerce some days ago whether he had had an opportunity yet of taking steps to set up this export corporation. I think he said the matter was receiving his active consideration. If this export corporation is set up, as I hope it will be, I think it might be useful if there was some link between it and the Department of External Affairs. After all, we now have a number of trade offices in America and in France; their reports, the advice of our Ministers, of our ambassadors, of our consuls in different parts of the world, would be useful to such an export corporation, and there should be some form of contact through the Department with the export corporation.

There is only one thing of a political nature I would like to say. It is not in criticism of the Minister or, indeed, of his Party. While I was Minister I suffered from a considerable amount of destructive criticism for discharging what I considered to be the duties of my office, namely, for representing this country at international conferences at which foreign ministers of other countries were present. I felt that it was part of my duty to ensure that the seat of Ireland at a conference of ministers would not be left empty. I considered that to be my duty. No doubt, if I had left Ireland's seat empty we would have heard criticism because I had left it empty. That criticism was in my view unjustified and it was destructive criticism. I hope that the Minister will not allow that type of criticism to preclude him from discharging his duty. I can assure him that, as far as I am concerned, and, I am sure, as far as most of the members on this side of the House are concerned, he will not be subjected to that form of destructive criticism. As I said before, there is no difference of approach towards our foreign policy. Our national objectives are clear-cut and accepted by everybody in the country and by all Parties, with one possible exception.

Before concluding, I would like to express a word of thanks to the great many friends we have in the United States, Wales, Scotland, England and Canada, who have given us invaluable help in recent years.

I think that the results which it has been possible to achieve in making Partition a real issue are largely due to the unselfish and voluntary work of organisations such the League for an Undivided Ireland in America, the Hibernians, the Eire Society in Boston and the Anti-Partition League in Scotland, in England and in Wales. I would like to put on record my appreciation of the assistance which I received from these organisations while I was Minister. I hope, and I am quite sure that, the Minister will keep in close contact with them and will give them such help and assistance as he can while he is Minister.

I think, too, before concluding, that I should not let this occasion pass without saying a word of regret at the fact that the French Ambassador, Count Ostrorog, is leaving us. He is not merely the first Ambassador of France to Ireland, but he is one of the ablest diplomats of the French service; we were lucky to have him here so long, but we are sorry to lose him. He has been appointed to India, and I would like to express, certainly on my behalf, our very best wishes to him in his new post. He always showed his constructive kindliness towards Ireland while he was here. I know that he will be regarded as a friend by the people of India.

Mr. D. Costello

I understand that in the Parliaments of other countries a debate on external affairs or foreign affairs, as the case may be, is usually an opportunity for one of the longest, the most protracted and sometimes the most bitter debates that these Parliaments have. The reason, I think, why we have in this House such a short time to debate external affairs and such an apparent lack of interest in the subject is, as has been pointed out, the fact that we, on all sides of the House and in the country generally, are agreed on the general objectives of national policy in relation to foreign affairs. There is, I think, very little disagreement in the country on the general approach to the problem of our foreign policy and on such matters as the unification of our country and Ireland's participation in the Atlantic Pact.

I rose in this debate to say, very shortly, a few words on the Government's policy towards Partition or, rather, certain aspects of it. I think it is a marked development and one which we all should welcome in the national thought of this country that every party without exception and practically every individual Deputy have come to the conclusion that the use of force towards the solution of Partition is something that is to be abhorred.

This development in our national thought has made possible further approaches to a solution of this problem. We have had in the last three years under the inter-Party Government a new approach developed, an approach for which I think a full measure of praise should be given to Deputy MacBride. We have had the Government endeavouring to see that the problem of Partition is put on the international plane so that well-wishers of this country throughout the world can be informed of the crime and wrong of Partition and their help and co-operation harnessed to endeavour to see that the solution of that problem is arrived at as quickly as possible. The Government was largely successful in the past three years in seeing that in international assemblies and on the international front generally the peoples of other countries were made aware of our particular internal problems here and the Government was successful in getting support from quarters in other countries which had hitherto been untapped in bringing pressure to bear both on the British Government and on the Northern Ireland Government to try to bring about a speedy solution of this problem. I hope that the present Government will continue that policy.

Side by side with that policy, I should like to see a further new approach towards this problem. The time has come in the development of our life as an independent nation. I think, to accept the de facto position of the Northen Ireland Government, to accept its existence as a de facto Government and, in the light of that approach, to co-operate with it on an economic level as far as that Government is prepared to co-operate with us.

There have been times in the recent past when it has been the duty of Irish Governments to take a strong and firm line with the British Government and the Northern Ireland Government on our rights in relation to the Partition problem. There is no cause for us to waive in any way our rights in this matter, but while proclaiming those rights we have now reached a situation where we should, and can, co-operate economically with the Northern Ireland Government and that means that we de facto recognise the Northern Ireland Government as the Government of the Six North-Eastern Counties.

In furtherance of this recognition I should like to see a trade commissioner appointed to the Northern Ireland Government in order to stimulate and co-ordinate the trade between the two parts of this country. If possible, I should like to see a trade commissioner appointed to Stormont and a trade commissioner appointed by the Northern Ireland Government to this part of the country. I should, further, like to see, if possible, the emergence of a customs union between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. The idea of a customs union, I think, is one which would bear fruit in regard to the ultimate unification of this country. The Minister has several historical examples of a country being divided and the union of the country being greatly helped by the prior existence of a customs union between the divided parts of the country.

The case that immediately leaps to mind is that of Germany in the 19th century when there evolved a customs union between some of the divided States of Germany, known as the Zolverein, which was in existence for a number of years prior to the ultimate unification of Germany, and which made possible the ultimate unification under Bismarck. Bismarck was able to say that Germany was united in all but name as the result of the customs and trade agreements which individual independent States had entered into prior to the political unification of that country.

We have here to some extent a similar situation, and I advocate a customs union because I feel that it would help to a large extent to bring about the ultimate political unification of the country which we all desire. It would help to stimulate trade between the North and South. It would help to harness the economies of the two portions of the country, so as to prepare for the ultimate union of these two economies when the political union takes place. It would help also to break down some of the distrust and unease in the minds of many of the decent people in Northern Ireland, who would, I think, be prepared to cooperate with this part of the country. The fear and the distrust among the decent Protestant people of that portion of the country from one of the major factors responsible for the hesitancy and the refusal of these people to have anything to do with the Government of the Republic. That fear and distrust, as I say, can be got rid of if we show that we are prepared to cooperate with them economically in the interests of both portions of the country.

The field is wide open for co-operation, and I think the difficulties of a customs union between the North and South are merely administrative and not ones of principle. They are difficulties which, I think, can be got over if the Departments concerned were to tackle them.

If we look at the recent speeches of Northern Ireland politicians, it is quite clear from them that such an approach as I am now advocating might meet with their co-operation. It is an approach worth trying and an approach which could do no harm, but which I think can do an immense amount of good. I ask the Minister to direct his Department to endeavour, first of all, to enter into trade negotiations with the Northern Government, if possible by an exchange of trade commissioners, and, secondly, to review the broader aspect of the problem and to try to negotiate a customs union between the North and the South.

There has been co-operation in recent years both in connection with the Erne electricity development scheme and more recently in the case of the Great Northern Railway. The first tentative efforts towards negotiations in the case of the Erne electricity scheme blossomed out into more complete negotiations at a governmental level in the case of the Great Northern Railway. That is a development which I welcome. It is a good thing that the Ministers of the Governments of the North and South were able to come together and discuss mutual problems to reach a solution in the interests of both. These are but two examples of co-operation which, certainly in the case of the first one, has been successful and, in the case of the second one, we hope will be successful. There is no reason why there should not be co-operation on matters of defence. There is no reason, for instance, why there should not be co-operation in the matter of air-raid warnings, in the matter of warnings which the defence organisations of both parts of the country would be able to give to the other concerning prospective invasions by air or sea. Similarly, there is no reason why, in many fields of economics, there could not be co-operation.

In one small matter of detail of which I have some experience, in law, I think it would be possible for the Governments of both parts of the country to treat the part of the country over which they have no control as within their jurisdiction for the service of writs in actions which may pend in their own courts so that we would not have the farcical situation of having to apply to the courts for service of writs out of the jurisdiction when writs have to be served on people in Northern Ireland. The same applies in the Northern Ireland Courts. There is no reason why there could not be agreement between the two parts of the country to treat, for the purpose of serving writs, the other part of the country as within the jurisdiction of the courts. That is a small matter which comes to my mind.

There are many other matters, particularly in the economic and defence spheres in which co-operation could be to the benefit of both parties. I advocate this because I feel there is historical precedent for a customs union of this sort and we know the benefits which can accrue. I advocate it because I feel it would be a step towards the ending of Partition, which we all desire.

I should say, in case my remarks are misrepresented, that I yield to no Deputy in my desire to see the end of Partition, but I advocate this de facto recognition of the Government of the Six North-Eastern Counties because I feel that by giving that recognition, by co-operating with them on every level for the mutual benefit of both parts of the country, the day when the ending of Partition will be brought about will be brought nearer by such a new approach to the problem.

Mr. Briscoe

I hesitate to comment at all on the contribution to the debate of the last Deputy except possibly to say that there was a great deal of what one might call university debating theory applied without any knowledge whatever of the practical situation. If Partition is ever to be ended we certainly cannot go about it by recognition of what he describes as a de facto position and by adopting all the other suggestions, such as a customs union based, in his opinion, on what history has taught us, when the position in this country is that our country has been partioned against the will of the people and a customs union would not suit the people of the North. They have a customs union with England. It is that economic situation between them and England that gives them the strength to remain economic in what should normally be an uneconomic position. I do not want to develop very much further on that but I hope that no Government of this part of Ireland will ever recognise as a de facto position which for us would be de jure and de facto a perpetuation of something which we have objected to and which we resent. Nor do I hope that there would be an exchange of trade representatives between the North and South. Nor do I hope that there would ever be such a thing as a customs union.

In the matter of defence, one only has to read the situation that exists between the North and England to recognise that until the reserved functions which Britain holds in connection with the North are surrendered back to Ireland or to a body representing both the North and the Twenty-Six Counties can any progress be made.

With regard to the Department, the Estimate for which we are discussing, I think what Deputy MacBride has stated is correct, that in all parts of this House there is general, or, one might say, unanimous agreement on the national policy and the outlook generally as to the achievement of our ultimate aims and objects, that is, the unity of the whole country. I feel that this Department, without doubt, is the most important Department of this State. All other Departments function in connection with internal matters almost exclusively. The Department of External Affairs functions almost exclusively abroad and away from this country. I do not think anyone will deny that the farther we go from these shores to all ends of the earth, Ireland has always been, and I believe always will be, an inspiration to freedom-loving peoples, and particularly to countries which have been depressed or suppressed by force or by greater Powers. For that reason alone one must regard the activities and the control of the Department of External Affairs from the aspect of the dignity with which it should continue its work because of the respect in which Ireland is held the farther we go from her shores.

I do not know whether or not it is generally conceded, but I think it is, that it is quite reasonable and fair to pay tribute to the staff of the Department of External Affairs from the top to the bottom, at home and abroad. Anyone who has travelled or who has met people who had contact with any branch of our service abroad will tell you that the officials in that Department are helpful, courteous and are activated by most human motives. I do not know if any of us has ever heard complaints to the reverse.

There has been a steady growth in that Department from its beginnings and there may be criticism as to how money is being spent in the Department, whether it is being spent wisely and well and in accordance with the policy with which the Department should be concerned, or not.

I do not agree with Deputy MacBride in his suggestion that there should be an export corporation set up under the control of this Department.

Mr. MacBride

I do not think I suggested that. I said I thought there should be a link between the export corporation and the Department.

Mr. Briscoe

Very well. I do not agree with that. On the last occasion that the Estimate for this Department was being discussed I said that I agreed entirely with the viewpoint that the conduct of negotiations between this country and other countries on all matters, but with particular reference to trade agreements, should be the function of the Department of External Affairs because I saw no better means of a proper agreement being reached and a proper respect being secured for an agreement. To that extent I agree, but I do not agree that we should transfer to that Department matters relating directly to trade. I agree that the Department should have a limited function so that its services would be available not only to our own citizens but to people abroad in regard to supplying information and assistance.

I am sure that Deputy MacBride himself will, on reflection, agree that this is a Department which should always be kept at a certain level, and one that should not be concerned with day-to-day activities in trade matters. While I say that, I want to pay a tribute to the Department for all that it has done in securing benefits for the country through its activities in respect to trade and tourism.

In my opinion the staffs in the Department, particularly those abroad and even in England, are underpaid. I am of the opinion that they should be put in a position to represent the country much better than they can possibly afford to do at the moment. I do not agree with the reason given by Deputy MacBride—that they should be given more money in order that they might be able to give wedding presents or other presents to friends of Ireland abroad. I think that if all the persons who deserve them were to get presents, the income of the State would hardly be able to meet it. In any event, anything of that sort might give rise to grievances. My point is that our representatives abroad should have their allowances increased, and that no conditions should be attached as to how they spend the money. If there are distinguished friends of this country abroad who are deserving of some recognition, I suggest that the cost of bestowing honours on them should be borne by the State. This is not the first time that I have suggested that these allowances should be increased. I think that these representatives of ours should be better treated, and that there should be a recognition of this fact that their standard of living is quite different from that say of even the higher civil servants at home whose duties are limited to what may be described as office work.

I have criticised before, not here but elsewhere, the activities of the Irish News Agency. I think the Minister should confine its activities, as far as possible to the work it should be doing. I disagree entirely with its activities in connection, say, with the dissemination of reports of hockey matches and such events, whether these take place in England or elsewhere. I understand that the sending out of that news is not even done promptly. There is no necessity whatever for this Irish News Agency, a product of the Department of External Affairs, to be engaging in competition with ordinary commercial undertakings in the sale of such news items as I have mentioned.

When this agency was created, I understood that its purpose was to be— I will not say of a propagandist nature entirely—educational from the world point of view and our position here.

Captain Cowan

Cultural.

Mr. Briscoe

Yes. It was never conveyed to me at any time that its activities would include the reporting of a girls' hockey match in Wales. I do not wish to delay the House longer since the Minister must be given time to reply. I do hope that developments will take place in every sphere in the Department of External Affairs, and that we will have representations in as many countries as possible. I hope that the Minister, while continuing his present policy, will not add to the work of the Department matters relating to tourist traffic and trade. I do not think that our offices abroad should be turned into offices for dealing with such matters. The Tourist Board should have its representatives abroad. Deputy MacBride must know from his experience as Minister that the intervention by the Department in certain matters when brought to its notice should be in the direction of correcting things which should not have happened. That is far more likely to happen if the precaution which I have suggested is not taken by the Department of keeping out of trade and tourist traffic matters. Its main function should be to act as a watchdog for the nation in regard to all affairs which are conducted on behalf of the nation abroad.

The policy of the Department is, of course, laid down by the Government of the day. I do not think it is necessary at this time for anyone on any side of the House to suggest that we have been recently converted to the policy of the abolition of Partition. Our views on that matter have already met with confirmation from the people. In conclusion, I hope that in regard to all matters the Department will conduct its affairs on a high level.

Mr. Rooney

I am glad to see that on this occasion the Coalition has recognised the desirability of having a whole-time Minister for the Department of External Affairs. It is a pity that the Department was not managed over the last 20 years in the manner in which Deputy MacBride conducted it during his time. Deputy Briscoe now criticises the proposition or suggestion which was put up by Deputy D. Costello in relation to Partition.

Mr. Briscoe

On a point of correction. Deputy Rooney does not remember, of course, that when Deputy McGilligan was Minister for Industry and Commerce he was also Minister for External Affairs. The Deputy, of course, does not want to remember that, and he just gives out phrases in a parrot-like fashion.

Mr. MacBride

Deputy Rooney said 20 years ago.

Mr. Briscoe

Surely, Deputy Rooney was born more than 20 years ago, and should know that.

Mr. Rooney

When that proposition was made by Deputy D. Costello we should remember that about six weeks ago the Taoiseach mentioned that the solving of Partition is not a question which is going to be reached overnight. From his statement it seemed to me to look like a ten-year plan. If that is the case, then I think we ought to consider the possibility of having some kind of economic co-operation between the agricultural arm in the Six Counties and the industrial arm in the Twenty-Six Counties, while at the same time maintaining our claim to a united country.

Mr. Briscoe

The Deputy is again wrong. He has completely reversed the position as it is in the North and here.

Mr. Rooney

I hope that the Minister will follow the policy which was so vigorously pursued by Deputy MacBride during his period in office. Certainly, from every angle the Department of External Affairs is now an effective instrument. It could not be described as anything more than a passport office when Deputy MacBride took over in 1948, and there were eminent and efficient officials there who would have been capable of doing the work they have been doing for the past three years, if the real value of the Department was recognised before that time. I do not think it can be disputed that Deputy MacBride was the best commercial traveller who ever left the shores of this country. He has certainly contributed to the economic well-being of our country, and to the prosperity and expansion which we have experienced during the past three and a half years.

I hope that the "new look" he has brought into that Department will be maintained so that we will be enabled to improve our trading relations and extend our trade with other countries. If we succeed in expanding our trade now, as Deputy MacBride did when he was our representative in the various countries, I have no doubt that our industries will be enabled to go into production so that goods can be exported and sold in competition with similar goods produced by workers in other countries.

I want to take the opportunity to ask the Minister to continue the policy mapped out for him by the previous Minister. Everybody who understands the value of putting this country on the international map, as was done by Deputy MacBride, will agree that that is the proper course to pursue. We saw Deputy MacBride travelling to America and to Europe on many occasions. Those who did not pause to think criticised him because he was travelling away from the country, but if he had not been at the conference tables of the various nations, we would not have secured the finances which have assisted in the improvement of our economy here. This country got a free gift of £1,000,000 to be used in any way we liked, and we got that sum because Deputy MacBride was there to claim his share when other nations sought to secure money from the same pool.

Mr. Cunningham

The Minister is aware of impending penal legislation against the nationalists of the Six Counties. Injustices have always been done to the nationalists of that part of our country, but, because the existing legislation has been found not to be sufficient—court cases have resulted in certain things which were done being found to be illegal—an effort is being made now to legalise the position in respect of injustices which were and will be inflicted on the nationalist element. The Minister should take steps to protest as strongly as possible and if other things can be done on behalf of these people, they should be done. When there was a threat, during the emergency, of conscription being imposed on these people against their will, a protest was made which turned out to be fruitful. The same, and perhaps something stronger, should be done now.

It is strange in 1951 to hear a Deputy, and a young Deputy at that, advocating co-operation between the Government in the Six Counties and our Government here in the matter of defence, when everybody knows perfectly well that the British Government have their army, their navy and their air force in the Six Counties of this island of Ireland ready to defend it against the Irish people. It is strange, then, that common defence should be advocated. It is one of these newfangled ideas which are growing up in our midst in regard to this matter of Partition. We know that there is a section, the ruling section, in the Six Counties who are doing their best to keep strife in existence between the ordinary people of the Six Counties and the people of the rest of Ireland.

There is no need to promote goodwill between the ordinary man in the Twenty-Six Counties and the Six Counties. That goodwill exists, but it is the ruling element, the governing element, the Quisling element in the Six Counties who are engendering this bitterness and trying to keep the fires of hatred burning. There is nothing our Government can do in the line of hands across the Border in friendship to that ruling element that will be effective in any foreseeable time. These new-fangled ideas about this matter should be got rid of.

It was stated that all Parties are now agreed that it is not advisable to use force. That may be so. That may be a proper attitude at the moment, but if in the next 20, 30 or 50 years it is found that these new methods have failed what, then, are we to do? Are we to go on for generation after generation pleading with them and coaxing them to become friends and to forget past difficulties? If all these methods fail, and continue to fail, will we not then be justified in adopting the same methods as were used to free the part of Ireland that is free? Deputy D. Costello in his speech used the words "Northern Ireland" as referring to six counties of our island. "Northern Ireland" is not the correct name from any point of view. It is a name that is commonly used now on both sides of the Border, but it should not be used to describe our six lost counties. Donegal, which is not one of the six, has places more northerly than any one of the Six Counties. Therefore it is one and it complicates things by having that part of Ireland described as "Northern Ireland". It suits the Stormont Government to have it so, but we should not continue that practice.

Mr. Cogan

I move to report progress.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.