Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 15 Feb 1956

Vol. 154 No. 3

Private Members' Business. - Adjournment Debate—Receipts from Milling Offals.

Mr. Corry

To-day I asked the Minister for Industry and Commerce the following question:—

"If he will state, in respect of the periods (i) 31st August, 1954, to 31st August, 1955, and (ii) 1st September, 1955, to 1st February, 1956, the total increased receipts obtained by millers as a result of the increase in the prices of offals following similar increases in the prices of imported offals."

To my amazement, this was the reply I got from the Acting-Minister:—

"While the accounts furnished to me by flour millers show total receipts from sales of offals, they do not distinguish the amounts received from offal sales at different price levels. I am unable therefore to give the information sought by the Deputy."

Now the reason for that question was that I was anxious to find out what profit was gained by the Exchequer in exchange for the practical wiping out of the pig industry in this country. Since this Government came in, the number of pigs in this country has been reduced by 153,000.

An Ceann Comhairle

I told the Deputy quite definitely this evening, when he intimated his intention of raising this on the Adjournment, that he could raise the subject matter of the question only but that the results or the alleged results might not be discussed on the question as worded. The Deputy may make reference only to the figures asked for.

Mr. Corry

Right. I wish to point out that on the 23rd March, 1955, the Minister for Industry and Commerce made the following statement in this House:—

"It was originally calculated that the reduction in flour and bread prices as from the 1st May, 1954, would add approximately £900,000 to the Bill for subsidy for the financial year 1954-55. In actual fact, the reduction will cost £927,000 against which, however, can be offset items amounting to about £550,000——"

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is still making an argument in respect of certain alterations. The Deputy asked specifically for certain figures. Whatever may happen as a result of certain action by the Government does not arise now on this question. The Deputy simply asked for figures and anything arising from the production of the figures may not be discussed on this question as drafted.

Mr. Corry

I am suggesting that if the Minister were able to give figures to this House on 23rd March, 1955—the figures I intend reading out now——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is not going to get past the Chair by reading out something of which the Chair has no knowledge in advance. He has asked for certain figures. He says he has not been given these figures correctly or not at all. All the Deputy is entitled to are certain figures he has asked for.

Mr. Corry

Yes, and the reply I got to-day stated that while the accounts furnished to the Minister showed total receipts from sales of offals, they did not distinguish the amounts received from offal sales at different price levels. I am suggesting that this information for which I looked to-day is in the Minister's possession as I intend proving here now. The Minister stated here on March 23rd last:—

"Increases in the price of offals, from £20 to £23 per ton in September, 1954, to £24 10s. in December, 1954, and to £26 a ton in January, 1955, account for increased receipts by millers of approximately £170,000. These increases followed similar increases in the prices of imported offals reflecting changes in the world price."

If those increased receipts, got by increasing the price of home offals to the level of imported offals as suggested by the Minister, depriving the unfortunate pig feeder of £170,000——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is proposing to argue alleged results from the figures quoted. He may simply get what he has asked for in his question and no more.

Mr. Corry

There is another day for it, thank God. If the Minister was able to give those figures showing those increases on March 23rd last, it shows that those figures were definitely given to him by the flour millers, otherwise we would not have been able to get the separate figure of £170,000. I suggest that I should have got an answer here to the question which I put down for the purpose of getting certain information and I am saying the information has been withheld and wilfully withheld for a very definite purpose. We know that the price of offals now is far over £20 per ton, the price for which they were sold in September, 1954. Millers are paid £5 or £6 higher to-day despite the fact that the price of wheat has been reduced.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is endeavouring to get past the ruling of the Chair. If he does not confine himself to the subject matter of the question I must ask him to resume his seat.

Mr. Corry

I am not endeavouring to get past the Chair.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair has indicated clearly what the Deputy has asked.

Mr. Corry

Very well. I shall get it in another way.

Minister for Social Welfare (Mr. Corish) (for the Minister for Industry and Commerce)

I can sympathise with Deputy Corry in this. I know he wants to make certain statements and possibly to get certain information, and if he had been a little bit more careful in the drafting of the question he possibly would have had a little bit more scope. Of course, he does not get the sympathy of anybody when he suggests that I, as Acting-Minister, wilfully withheld information.

Mr. Corry

The Minister only gave what he got.

Mr. Corish

From the Deputy's suggestions it is obvious that the Deputy does not know what he is talking about. I propose to read out a statement and when Deputy Corry reflects on the information I shall give he will realise that he has got the wrong end of the stick. I shall now read out this statement:—

"In calculating the probable amount of flour subsidy payments in any financial year, account is taken of the probable receipts by flour millers from their sales of wheaten offals. When, as happened in March last, it becomes necessary to present a Supplementary Estimate for flour subsidy, the estimated receipts from offal sales are revised in the light of any price changes which may have occurred during the financial year.

Receipts from sales of offals are calculated on an estimated average weekly output of 1,700 tons of offals. By applying to this figure the price increases above £20 per ton which occurred subsequent to September, 1954, for the periods during which the various increases operated, it was calculated that the probable total receipts from offal sales in the financial year 1954-55 would be approximately £170,000 more than was originally estimated, and the supplementary sum required for subsidy payments in that year was abated accordingly. It must be emphasised, however, that the figure of £170,000 was only an estimate based on the best information available at the time and for the purpose only of calculating the probable amount of payments on account of subsidy likely to fall due in the financial year.

Particulars of actual receipts by millers from offal sales could be got only by an examination of the millers' accounts. As indicated in the reply to the Deputy's question, these accounts do not show separately the amounts derived from sales at different price levels, and so it would not be possible to indicate the extent to which increased receipts in any particular period might be due to higher offal prices rather than to a greater volume of sales.

Adopting the same basis as that used in estimating the probable amount of subsidy payments in the financial year 1954-55 the increased receipts by millers from sales of wheaten offals from September 1954 to August 1955 have been calculated to amount to £431,000; and for the period from September 1955 to the 1st February 1956 to £186,000.

It must again be pointed out, however, that these figures have been computed and depend for their validity on the following assumptions:—

(1) that the output of offals remained constant at 1,700 tons per week over the entire period;

(2) that the entire output of offals was sold each week, and;

(3) that there was no time lag in giving effect to price changes, and that each week's output was sold at the price ruling for that week."

I think that statement should help Deputy Corry in any further question he wants to frame.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.45 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Thursday 16th February, 1956.