Vol. 167 No. 3
I move:—
That a sum not exceeding £291,000 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st March, 1959, for Salaries and other Expenses in connection with Wireless Broadacting (No. 45 of 1926), including Public Concerts.
Without being in any way rude to the Minister, will he make clear whether he is moving one or two votes?
Vote 56.
Only one?
That is all.
Thank you.
So far as the Book of Estimates is concerned, very little need be said as to the method of arriving at the amount to be provided for broadcasting each year and of showing it in the book as these two matters have by now become well established and have taken a routine form. Briefly, the amount in sub-head A is equal to the estimated receipts from licence and sponsored programme fees, with a small additional amount for other receipts. The sum, which amounts to £529,000 this year, is used for programme operation. In sub-head B, provision is made for the purchase of equipment and the sum, which is defrayed by the Exchequer outside the fees, is arrived at each year in consultation between the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. For the coming year, the amount provided specifically for equipment in the B sub-head has had to be curtailed to £1,000 because of the general need for economy in expenditure.
The receipts from licence fees estimated at £429,000 represents an increase of £9,000 on the Estimate for the previous year, which is a much smaller increase than used to take place in former years. The number of licences is of course approaching the maximum ever likely to be reached. The receipts from sponsored programme fees have settled down at a fairly steady figure of a little over £90,000 a year.
Although this Estimate covers only sound broadcasting, I think Deputies will expect me to make a reference to the newer medium of television which is at present the subject of a good deal of public discussion. The general public, who are the potential viewers, are showing a very good sense of proportion in this matter. They are not pressing for the early setting up of Irish television because they are aware of the formidable financial problem involved in it. On the other hand, general proposals have been made by some groups to be permitted to establish and operate television in Ireland as a commercial venture.
Inherently, there must be a difference of outlook in television between commercial operators and public service operators. The commercial concern must aim at the largest audience at the lowest cost that will hold them. A public service administration is expected to provide programmes that will portray national character or provide for national needs—say, national dramatic productions or programmes in the Irish language—although generally they are of the more expensive type and some at least have only minority audience. We have, therefore, the problem of trying to reconcile the financial and commercial interest with the public interest requirements.
As the House is aware, the Government has appointed a commission of distinguished people with widely divergent interests to assist us in arriving at a solution of this complex problem. I have formally opened the proceedings of the commission and the members have now settled down to work. I know the Government and the country will be grateful to them if they can propose an arrangement which will safeguard our national dignity and culture in our television service, while giving to the commercial interests their rightful opportunity of a reasonable return for any money they may invest in a television project.
This is all I propose to say about television for the moment and I shall turn to the service of Radio Éireann for which this Vote is being provided.
I think the House will agree with me that the standard of the national broadcasting service is high and has shown continuing improvement within the limitations of its resources. Radio Éireann is now doing more enterprising programmes and is attracting a greater proportion of Irish listeners.
From the past year's activities, one might easily select examples of the sort of programme which, a few years ago, Radio Éireann would scarcely have been able to undertake, at least with such frequency. I allude to, for instance, the Lourdes Centenary Year programmes, which are not yet concluded, and for which a team of three officers took a specially designed recording van to Lourdes. There is the crop of new programmes from the new centre in Cork, which are offering a pleasant element of variety in the general schedules. Again, for the Tercentenary of Father Luke Wadding, O.F.M., Radio Éireann, in addition to finding many programmes at home, sent its own commentator to Rome.
In sport, commentators went to Cardiff, Wembley, Manchester and New York to bring international games to Irish listeners. As a particularly striking example of what increased resources have enabled Radio Éireann to do, I might mention the very extensive coverage for its own programmes and for those of the B.B.C. provided in connection with the meetings in Dublin of the British Association for the Advancement of Science.
Broadcasting has unique and powerful advantages as a medium for the diffusion of the Irish language, whether this be done to serve the people of the Gaeltacht or to spread the language in the rest of the country; and Radio Éireann programmes offer striking instances of the employment of this resource. The currach races of Tóstal-time, which are the Gaeltacht people's own achievement, and which bring great numbers from all the Gaeltacht areas to meet in competition— these are given ample coverage every year. Mobile-recording teams go to every Gaeltacht area, on mainland and island, to carry back to the studio microphones the stories, songs, instrumental music and debates of An Rinn, Aran, Rann na Feirsde, Cúl Aodha and Dún Chuinn.
The latest example is the Gaeltacht magazine programme, "Meascra Muimhneach," which comes from the new Cork centre, and in "Fadhbanna Gaeilge," a weekly discussion feature, native speakers who have added scholarship to initial mastery of the spoken language, try to solve the problems of listeners who are interested in the finer points of Irish speech and writing. Finally, I do not overlook such continuing enterprise as the Thomas Davis Lectures—I am glad to see that the important series on St. Patrick has now been given the permanence of print—the public concerts given by the symphony orchestra in Dublin and elsewhere, and the collaboration by Radio Éireann that has made possible the successful opera seasons in Dublin and Wexford.
Now, however, that we are preparing for a new Irish television service, we must look carefully at our national sound broadcasting service and make sure that it will be equipped to do its part of the job that we expect sound broadcasting and television together to do for the country in the years to come.
I must emphasise that however much faith we may place in Irish television, there can be no question of abandoning or neglecting Irish sound broadcasting. Even in the countries where television is most highly developed, sound broadcasting is still flourishing and great effort and considerable expense are being devoted to it. In Britain, for instance, where television is within range of 98 per cent. of the population, the importance of sound broadcasting is still considered to be so great that heavy expenditure has been undertaken in the last few years to provide coverage by the new method of very high frequency transmission, so as to compensate for the deterioration of medium-wave reception.
The broadcasting service there has changed but has not been diminished: the changes have been criticised in England, but the fact remains that there are still three separate programmes broadcast and there has been no reduction in broadcasting hours. In the United States too, where television is even more highly developed than in Britain, sound broadcasting has changed but still flourishes, and sales of sound receivers still rise.
In Ireland, we cannot expect television to replace sound broadcasting. Even when the television service becomes nation-wide, we cannot hope that everybody who now has a broadcast receiver will be able to have a television set, which must always be more expensive. Nor is it likely that Irish television will for a long time be able to do all that Radio Éireann has tried to do in the way of reflecting all aspects of national activity all over the country and encouraging Irish writers, musicians, speakers and actors. Television programmes are very much more expensive to produce than sound programmes—the overall cost of an hour of television in England is about six times the cost of an hour of sound broadcasting—and the complications of producing them are very much greater, Consequently, even countries very much richer than ours have to import a large proportion of their television programmes so that the high production costs can, as far as possible, be shared out among several users. The less rich the country, the smaller is the proportion of programmes produced locally, and of primarily local interest.
Television is an incomparable medium for conveying entertainment and information, but it encounters far more practical difficulties than does sound broadcasting in its choice of things that it can convey. Outside broadcasts in television, even from Dublin theatres and concert halls, would involve very expensive equipment, great preparatory labour, and a considerable number of highly-trained technical staff. Some small-scale studio programmes can be produced fairly simply and relatively cheaply, but, of course, the temptation for a small-scale service is always to take ready-made programmes from other television services, or ready-made films.
I want to emphasise that an Irish television service can hardly set out to replace sound broadcasting and do the job that Radio Éireann is trying to do now. We shall still need our national sound broadcasting service, not merely for those who cannot get television or cannot afford television sets, but also for those who have television, to bring them what television inevitably cannot bring. Looking objectively at our present broadcasting service, one can see that in spite of any progress it has made in the last few years, it is still badly under-equipped for the work it ought to do.
I think Radio Éireann is the only national broadcasting service in Europe that has no broadcasting building but depends for its studios on scattered makeshifts: converted offices in the General Post Office, two halls in Dublin, neither of which was designed for broadcasting, and only two studios that were built as broadcasting studios.
I do not think either that there is any other national broadcasting service that has not even one alternative programme but broadcasts only a single programme and that for only part of the day. There is simply not room in this single, limited programme for all that Radio Éireann wants to do, and should be doing, for all its listeners with all their varying tastes, with all types of music and speech in both Irish and English.
Worst of all—this single programme cannot even be adequately heard over the whole country. Although we have installed three new transmitters in the last five years, our transmissions can no longer compete successfully in the more remote areas with the ever-increasing interference from stations abroad. The same situation applies in many other countries, and by common consent they are resorting to very high frequency transmission as the only means of giving good reception of their own programmes to their own people. Very high frequency transmission supplies the answer, but of course it is expensive as a complete new network of transmitters is required. To embark on this system would be a formidable undertaking, but I think we cannot indefinitely permit a situation in which residents in parts of County Wexford, for instance, are getting or will soon get three British sound programmes on very high frequency and two British television programmes, whilst they cannot listen satisfactorily to Radio Éireann at night.
I have dwelt rather fully on the deficiencies in Radio Éireann's present resources in order that we may not forget all about sound broadcasting when the excitements of television come in. You will see that to provide a studio building and a new transmission system would involve heavy expenditure over and above the proceeds of the present licence fees and the fees for sponsored programmes. That money is not available at the present time when there are so many other calls upon the public purse for vital and immediate things.
It is one of the burdens we have put on the new commission to recommend the relations that should exist between a television service and the Radio Éireann sound broadcasting service. We hope that the deliberations of the commission will help us in considering how the deficiencies. I have mentioned from which Radio Éireann is still suffering can best be overcome.
May I say, first of all, on behalf of not only this Party but, I am sure, the Opposition and the House as a whole, that we were all extremely sorry to hear of the illness of the Minister, and I would ask the acting-Minister to convey to him our hopes for his most speedy recovery? Deputy Ormonde had not been Minister for very long before he had to absent himself and we hope he will soon be back among us again.
I must confess that I found the speech of the Minister difficult to follow in certain circumstances, that is to say, if I was not aware that the Government do not know their own mind about anything. But it really does seem that we are going beyond the beyonds when the Minister cannot remember for five pages of his speech —and may I think him for his courtesy in circulating his speech?—to be consistent. The Minister somewhere about page 2 of his statement, having referred to the inception of the Television Commission, said that that was all he was going to say about television. He forgot his own policy to such an extent that practically all the rest of his speech covered nothing but television.
In the circumstances in which the commission has just been set up, I do not propose to dwell at any length on the television aspect. I would have liked the Minister to give us something more definite in terms of actual £.s.d. as to the likely cost of such a service, both in relation to capital cost and in relation to maintenance. The Minister did mention that it was about six times that of sound.
In Britain.
In Britain. I do not know whether that figure referred to capital cost or to programme production cost. It would help the House and the general public to appreciate and understand the problem, if some more detailed figures were given. I am sure the Minister and his Department have costings for a television service, both capital and production costings, not merely for Britain but for America and other countries as well. Had that information been available to the House, it would have been of assistance.
I take it from the last observations made by the Minister that there is no immediate plan for dealing with the new buildings on the Stillorgan Road. When I was over on that side of the House, I have a recollection of Deputies on this side saying that there was only one thing needed to get that building going and the proper facilities made available, and that was to get rid of Deputy Sweetman and his colleagues and put them over here. Apparently, the position now is that that was just another of the gross misrepresentations by Fianna Fáil during the election campaign and here in this House. Indeed, we shall soon reach the situation in which it will be impossible to catalogue these misrepresentations because they are so numerous.
In relation to broadcasting generally, I am a bad person to give an opinion because I listen very infrequently. I may listen to the news, to "To-day in the Dáil" and occasionally to sporting events, and it would not be fair, therefore, for anyone to take my listening experience as typical of what is required. I will say, however, that during the past three or four years, and even during the past year, despite the fact that we have the Government we have, I have heard less criticism of Radio Éireann than I heard in bygone years. That may be due to improvements that have been effected by the Radio Council. I cannot say whether or not that is so, because I have not sufficient knowledge, but the fact remains that I have heard far less criticism.
In relation to the Radio Council and Radio Éireann generally, the main significant event during the year was the disgraceful behaviour of Deputy Neal Blaney when he was Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. Perhaps even more disgraceful was the attitude adopted by the Taoiseach in promoting Deputy Blaney for his misbehaviour. So far as I am concerned, I accept without question that any Minister is at any time entitled to criticise any body, voluntary or otherwise, or council set up to deal with any aspect of affairs connected with his Department. That is the prerogative of a Minister and it is in the public interest that he should have that right. It is equally vital, however, that, before there is any criticism in public of any body, particularly a body doing voluntary work, the people affected should be given an opportunity in private of hearing the Minister's views and of answering them before the Minister holds them up to public odium. The manner in which Deputy Blaney so far forgot himself was most reprehensible, most unfair to the Radio Council and was only exceeded by the manner in which, contrary to the public interest, such a gross breach of public faith was commended by the Taoiseach in promoting Deputy Blaney to the higher Department of Local Government.
The debate on this Estimate is entirely different from the debate we have had on other Votes inasmuch as we cannot express a Party view on many of the aspects of broadcasting and we are, therefore, confined to expressing personal views. I should like to join with Deputy Sweetman in asking the Minister to convey, on behalf of my Party, our very good wishes for the speedy recovery of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. As Deputy Sweetman has said, he was only a very short time here as Minister, but I think everybody will agree that he was one of the most approachable Ministers, both publicly and privately. That was different from the treatment we have got from many Ministers here, particularly in relation to answers to questions and in debate generally.
Might I say to the Minister who has introduced this Estimate this morning how refreshingly different it has been to hear him introducing this Estimate as compared with the treatment meted out to the House by the Minister for External Affairs? At least the acting-Minister in this instance gave views and made comments on the activities of Radio Éireann and the possibility or probability of television in the near future, so unlike the disgraceful treatment of the House by the Minister for External Affairs on his Estimate.
There is not much one can say on television at this stage. Neither is it desirable, since the Minister and the Government have appointed a very representative commission to inquire into the possibility of television. It seems to me that that commission will be meeting for a very long time to come because the terms of reference are such, and in some cases so contradictory, that it will take them a long time to make recommendations in accordance with the desires or wishes of the Minister and the Government.
It seems from the action of the Minister in setting up the commission and from his comments this morning that it will be a long time before we can have a television station here. Deputy Blaney, when Minister, did great harm by some of the comments he made about television. A few weeks after his appointment, he went to some northern county and gave the impression that television was right around the corner. I would not be so much concerned about the viewing public as I would be about the traders. I can honestly say from my own knowledge that traders have approached me to ask when was the television station to be established because they were interested in stocking their shops. They continued asking for months until we had a reasonable and sane statement from Deputy Ormonde, who replaced Deputy Blaney as Minister. Only then did they realise that television was not the urgent necessity Deputy Blaney told the country it was. Consequently, they were not as concerned about stocking their shops with television sets and accessories. Deputy Blaney did a great deal of harm, but, thank God, that has now been repaired and there is a sane and logical approach to the question.
Many people must wonder if television will be a blessing or the contrary. We can control the censorship of books and films, but unfortunately we have no control over the two television programmes we get at present from stations in Britain. To say the least of it, if we had control, some of them should be banned. They are certainly a source of corruption to many of our young people. I do not say that young people deliberately seek out these programmes, but parents have discovered that when certain plays and programmes are on from these stations, the television set just has to be turned off. That is no blame to the Minister and I do not know what he can do about it. I think I would be safe in assuming that if we had an Irish television station, we would have programmes that would not offend anybody, young or old.
As far as Radio Éireann itself is concerned, I do not propose to change the line I have taken in the House ever since I became a member. I am always prepared to give full credit and as much praise as I can to Radio Éireann. As I said, this is not a Vote like Industry and Commerce, Social Welfare or Agriculture which can be judged as it stands. When people come to talk about Radio Éireann, there immediately comes to mind Radio Luxembourg, the B.B.C. Light Programme, the Third Programme and the various other programmes available on the dial. We have to appreciate that our resources are very much limited, and particularly so as far as Radio Éireann is concerned. They, above all, have to cut their cloth according to their measure. They have only a certain amount of money at their disposal, but it must be agreed that, with the resources they have, the programmes presented are very acceptable.
I do not say that every single programme is acceptable to everybody every time. For instance, I cannot bear céilidhe music. It is described as a form of culture, but I cannot listen to it. That does not necessarily mean I would like to see it abolished entirely. I am sure the majority of people in the House like it, though I do not. I do not condemn Radio Éireann for that reason. I like the majority of programmes and the Director, staff, Comhairle and artistes are to be highly complimented on the productions from Radio Éireann during the year.
I should like to say a word about the sponsored programmes. The Director has some control over all the programmes, apart from the sponsored programmes. I should like to know has he any control over sponsored programmes. There are some very admirable sponsored programmes, but I do not want to mention a whole lot of names. However, I should like to mention particularly the Irish Hospitals Sweepstake programme, which is an admirable programme. But in some of the other sponsored programmes we get a very bad type of music. We get that from 1 o'clock until 2.30, with a break in between for the news and topical talk. While I would not ask the Minister or the Director to impose a strict form of censorship, at least they ought to demand a certain standard. I know there are people in this country who want to hear skiffle groups and that we have many rock 'n' roll fans; but I do not think the public in general want that type of programme. If people want skiffle groups, rock 'n' roll and hot music, there are many other stations on the dial to which they can turn. I have no objection to their likes and dislikes in respect of music, but Radio Éireann, at least, should demand a certain standard in musical and other programmes.
I have asked here on previous occasions that the lunch-time programme commence at 12.30. I did so for a very good reason. The majority of workers, certainly in the provincial towns, go home to their lunch at 12.30. They arrive home about 20 minutes to one. They take 20 minutes or half an hour for their lunch and go back again to the job. I do not see what advantage there is for them to have the lunch-time programme start at one o'clock. Another stupid thing about the lunch-time programme is to have it continue until 2.30. What sort of listening public is there from about a quarter to two until 2.30?
The housewife washing the dishes.
She could not care less about Radio Éireann at that stage. I have raised this matter many times and never got a satisfactory answer. The Minister should inquire into the possibility of having the lunch-time programme commence at 12.30 and if they want to continue until two o'clock or 2.30, well and good. In the rural areas, the experience is the same. Most rural workers have a lunch-time break from 12.30 to 1.30 and they derive no advantage from having a programme commencing at 1 o'clock.
There is another matter I wish to raise. I know it is not a function of the Minister, but I am sure matters brought up during this debate are taken notice of by the Director and the Comhairle. It is that greater use ought to be made of the Radio Éireann Light Orchestra. I referred already to skiffle groups and rock 'n' roll. Maybe I am getting old. The Minister mentioned the symphony orchestra. I am told that one has to be educated in listening to the symphony orchestra. I do not think the majority of Members could endure the symphony orchestra for a whole hour.
We get too much of the symphony orchestra and not enough of the light orchestra. All praise and credit to the symphony orchestra. What the Minister said is right as far as the symphony orchestra is concerned, that they have co-operated and helped to a very large extent in making successful the musical festival in Wexford and the operatic season in Dublin. It caters for a certain type of person. But, if we want, and I think our intention should be, to try to get people away from canned music, hot music, real jazz music to decent music, the proper medium is the Radio Éireann Light Orchestra. One cannot go from bread to caviare with one quick jump. If it is the desire of the Minister and the Comhairle to get people to appreciate and enjoy reasonably good music, not heavy music, it ought to be done through the medium of an orchestra such as the light orchestra.
The Minister has been noted, at least since we have known him as a Minister, as a staunch supporter of the Irish language. He has made certain changes in the Department of Defence in that respect and to-day he referred to the use of the Irish language on the radio. I hope that at some time in the future we can have a full and frank discussion in this House on the question of the revival of the Irish language, so that, as I have said in another debate, we can try to get some common front on that subject.
I do not think Radio Éireann does as much as it could do to help the Irish language. I say this, as one who lives in the Pale. If it is true that Radio Éireann devotes a great deal of time to programmes in the Irish language, it is equally true that these programmes are entirely for the benefit of those who know the language well.
That is right.
I do not say that I do not know any Irish; I know some Irish. I have tried to listen to even the news in the Irish language and some of the other Irish programmes, and I have not a clue. I am not particularly stupid as far as Irish is concerned, as I got quite an amount of it in school and can converse in the language in a kind of way. Radio Éireann does nothing for me or people like me, as far as the advancement of the language is concerned. If there could be simpler programmes and if the speaker did not assume that we all knew the language fluently, we would get on much better. If the speaker spoke more slowly and repeated phrases in a different way and plugged these phrases, there would be some advancement. The Irish programmes that I have listened to are merely for the benefit of those people who are fluent in the language or who are resident in the Gaeltacht.
People have different tastes and likes. Some people come to me and say: "Why do you not raise in the Dáil the question of this programme and have it on more frequently," or "Why not have this other programme scrapped?" That probably would not represent the viewpoint of the general public and, therefore, I do not advocate such things.
The Minister referred to the bad reception of Radio Éireann in Wexford at night. I have been in the Dáil for 13 years and this question has been mentioned by Ministers for 13 years and there does not seem to be an improvement. I am informed that West Cork or some parts of Cork——
West Cork, yes.
——are in the same predicament, that it is practically impossible to hear Radio Éireann well at night. The Minister mentioned it, but did not suggest that anything would be done or that it was possible that anything could be done. I was rather amused at the way in which he mentioned it. He seemed to begrudge us the very good reception we had of the British sound programmes and television programmes. Of course, such is not the case. The Minister, through his engineers, should make a special effort to ensure that Radio Éireann will be well received at night in Wexford because the most important programmes are on at night—the news, sports results, musical programmes and that type of programme. We do not get them or, if we do get them, the reception is bad.
Once again, I would ask the Minister to convey our good wishes to Deputy Ormonde and to convey to the Director and staff of Radio Éireann and the Comhairle our congratulations on the fine way, having regard to the circumstances, in which Radio Éireann has been run for the past 12 months.
Ba mhaith liom aontú leis an Aire nuair dúirt sé go bhfuil feabhas tagaithe ar an gclár craolacháin Radio Éireann agus tá daoine eile a aontuíonn leis sin. Tá fhios againn go léir nach féidir an clár do cheapadh inniu i gcóir na seachtaine seo chughainn, go mbionn ortha an clár do shocrú i bhfad roimhré agus, dá bhrí sin, caithfimíd bheith sásta mar a bhíonn dul ar aghaidh maith ar an scéim atá aca. Is dóigh liom go bhfuil na daoine sásta go bhfuil an chomhairle ag déanamh a ndicheall chun gach rud is féidir leo a chur i gceart agus i dtreo. Is cinnte go bhfuil na daoine sásta anois go bhfuil iarracht maith á dhéanamh sa tslí sin.
Go deimhin, is trua nach féidir leis na daoine i measc na sléibhte nó ar an dtaobh thiar des na sléibhte nó des na cnocaibh na cláir do chloisint go soiléir agus caithfimíd rud éigin a dhéanamh chun é sin do leasú agus chun go gcloisfear an clár go soiléir ar fúd na tíre go léir. Pe'r domhan é, ba cheart go mbeadh sé le cloisint i bhfad i gcéin agus, sa chéad dul síos, ba cheart go mbeadh na daoine éisteachta sásta sa bhaile.
I should like to say that I agree with the other speakers who have said that the programmes on Radio Éireann have improved during the past year or two and that they are satisfied that those in charge are doing their best to improve the programmes and to produce more diversified programmes for people of various tastes, as an improvement on what we used to hear and criticise in the past. It is indeed a pleasure to be able to say that every effort is being made, I believe, in that direction and that those in charge are taking steps to find out the public need and to cater for it. They are successful to a commendable degree, and it is indeed a pity that programmes cannot be heard clearly by people living among the mountains, particularly those on the other side of the mountains of West Cork, Kerry, Wexford and such places. The transmissions there should be studied, and if Radio Athlone does not strike these places well, more use might be made of stronger transmitters in Dublin or Cork. The difficulty might be overcome in that way.
I was very pleased to hear the Minister say also that an effort will be made to provide alternative programmes so that the people will not be dependent on one station and one programme only. The stations in Dublin and Cork are weak at present and cater only for a very limited area, but I presume, until the buildings the Minister has in mind have gone ahead, it will not be easy to provide what is desirable here in Dublin. The station in Cork is now nearing completion and we are hoping to have the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs opening it in the near future. We trust it will be such that it will serve the needs of the southern province, at any rate, and perhaps have more extended scope throughout the country.
A public meeting was held in Cork some few years back seeking to ensure that when that station is established and working, the light orchestra would be transferred to the South, that is, the orchestra praised so highly by Deputy Corish. That was found entirely impracticable when we discussed the matter with those responsible for broadcasting from Radio Éireann and we then requested a chamber orchestra with a personnel of 20 and this was considered too costly and also turned down. In the meantime, as the Minister is aware, we have lost through a tragic fire the principal musical centre of our city by the burning of the Opera House and we have built the School of Music, incorporating Radio Éireann studios with a limited hall, but at the same time a centre, that, with the City Hall, might help in the meantime to cater for the South.
It is a great loss indeed that the Opera House is not available and we are looking to Radio Éireann to help out in the difficulty, until that Opera House can be rebuilt by giving us what is now proposed, a string quartette at least, which can help by incorporation in the symphony orchestra in Cork conducted by Professor Fleischmann. This will help to some extent, perhaps, in giving broadcasts from the studio and also in raising the standard and teaching of music in the southern centre generally.
We hope to be able to get some concessions in that way from Radio Éireann for the second largest city in this part of the State, for a city that has a good name for musical talent and appreciation of symphony and music of high standard. The station is being used at the moment to some extent for folklore and national activities of various kinds. We appreciate that it is not sufficient to go on that line only and we only hope that the Minister and the Comhairle and those associated with the Minister will be able to let us know by the time the station is to be opened in a month or so what they are able to do for us by way of supplementing the programme, particularly on the musical side, because there is a good deal of local talent for drama and song and so on. That is something we look forward to with interest and we hope the Minister and Comhairle will be able to help us in that respect.
Generally speaking, our broadcasting service should be such that anybody listening to it would know he is listening to a broadcast from a distinctive nation, with its own culture and language, and even though music is international and even though many things broadcast are of advantage, educationally and otherwise, I hope our radio will never lose its character of being a good standard national broadcasting station.
I join with those who have spoken before me in extending our felicitations to the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. I hope that his illness will be of short duration and that he will be able to resume the duties on which he had only commenced in that Department. There is no doubt that, but for the change made in this Ministry, this would be an extremely hotly-discussed Estimate and the method by which the Government was relieved of the embarrassment of Deputy Blaney as Minister for Posts and Telegraphs was certainly an extraordinary one, the method of promotion. But it definitely relieved the Government of the extreme embarrassment he was causing them at that time.
The new Minister has not been long in that office and consequently the acting-Minister could not be expected to make anything very positive in the way of a statement concerning Government policy in relation to wireless broadcasting. In fact, it would be an extraordinary thing in these days if any Minister in the Government made a clear statement of Government policy in regard to any Department, but in so far as we could glean from the introductory remarks this morning, the Government, as might be expected, are concerned in relation to the future of television.
They have set up a commission, the personnel of which is certainly to be commended, and they have taken on the task of reporting on the advisability of a television service and the type of service that would best suit this country's needs.
The Minister went on to refer, quite truthfully, to the difficulties which listeners to Radio Éireann have in many parts of the country. There is no doubt that the radio provides a very great majority of our people with entertainment and information. It is a medium that is now more used than any other medium in existence. It has brought entertainment and information to the most remote parts of the country, to old and infirm people, to young and middle-aged people. If it is within the Government's financial resources to improve the facilities of that medium, the sensible thing to do would be to perfect it and so ensure that the people who wish to listen to Radio Éireann will be provided with more listening time and that they will have an opportunity to listen without interruption.
The Minister referred to the fact that in parts of this island listeners can get clearer reception from Britain than from the home station. If he could possibly do it, not only should he direct our programmes to listeners in this country, but he should try to direct them to the very many Irish nationals now resident in Great Britain and who are so anxious to be kept in touch with affairs in this country. It would help very considerably in maintaining in them interest and love for their native land; it would help them considerably in the exigencies which they may have to meet in a foreign land.
Surely it is not beyond the bounds of possibility to give to our people in Britain a reasonable chance of getting news from home and of listening to Irish programmes. However, in the first place we want to satisfy our people at home. I agree with Deputy Sweetman, Deputy Corish and Deputy MacCarthy that there is a distinct improvement in the quality of the programmes over the last couple of years but it is the engineering difficulties to which I refer. In that respect, West Cork must be taken into account as well as Wexford.
In relation to the programmes transmitted from Radio Éireann I would suggest that the station, in its desire to cater for all interests, does spread itself over a very wide field and does produce exclusive programmes of interest to only a very limited portion of our people. In many cases these people are well provided for by the theatres and other facilities that are available in Dublin. The reaction among people who have no interest in these programmes is to switch on to another station. If we could assess what are the desires of the people in general, we should devote the greatest possible time to catering for the general interest. In that respect I would strongly support Deputy Corish in his remarks about giving more time to our own light orchestra. If we did so we could wean away many of our young people who are to-day attracted to a type of music which is not complimentary to our Irish character. You will not wean them away by providing a type of music which people have to study for some time before they get a liking for it.
While I commend Radio Éireann on the content of many of its programmes I do think that we should be provided with a more frequent news service and that the news should be more condensed. The custom has grown in many countries to give summaries of the news at frequent intervals. I think it would be well worth looking into that system. People cannot devote the time which is necessary to listen to a long summary of news from different parts of the world. It is, of course, only right that news of international importance should get priority on occasion but quite often people are anxious to hear news of affairs within our own country. They feel frustrated when they have to wait through a lengthy description of something that is happening far away and in which they have no great interest. I think that, in the broadcasting of news, we should try to get many more items into the programme and get them in in the shortest time possible.
While we compliment our announcers on their ability as linguists and on the amount of research which must go into the preparation of many of our items, it is an extraordinary thing that our Irish announcers, reporting on events in this House, are not even aware of the identity of people who occupy Ministries in this Government. That does not happen very often but it should not happen at all. I am glad that Radio Éireann has facilitated those who are interested in public affairs to the extent of providing them with reports on Dáil proceedings which have been very fair to all sides and which are very helpful in promoting more interest in the administration of Government services here at home.
The political broadcasts at election times are listened to by very many people and the Director has done very well in his effort to cater for the various Parties and interests in these broadcasts. I think it is regrettable that we have not advanced to the stage where we can discuss the various measures going through this House in the form of round-table discussions such as are broadcast in other countries. It would help considerably in promoting a better understanding of politics in this country if we had such a round-table discussion. At Budget time we have the opinions of various people but I think it should be possible to get representatives of different interests at a round-table discussion of measures going through the House. Surely it would provoke a much more interesting discussion if the representatives of varying views could sit across from each other at the one table and by way of point and counterpoint bring their views home more forcibly to the listening public.
Would you want the Ceann Comhairle?
I do not know if the Ceann Comhairle would care to take part. At any rate, it is not beyond the capabilities of the people we have in this country to occupy the chair at such a discussion without danger to life or limb. Without a doubt there has been a distinct improvement in the variety programmes from Radio Éireann. If I may say so, the Cork contributions in that respect have been quite prominent and have brought about an increase in the listening public to variety from Radio Éireann.
The Minister made reference to what Radio Éireann should be doing. I suggest that before the Government direct their attention towards the provision of a television service in this country they should seek to extend the hours of listening of Radio Éireann and improve the reception. I think it is very discouraging and careless on the part of many people to require the authorities to carry out the extensive investigations they have to carry out in order to ensure that the licence is paid. If good value can be got for 17/6 it can be got for one year's listening in the country. If there was more cooperation among the people in that respect less expense would be involved in ensuring that the revenue would be forthcoming.
With regard to television, people are apt to judge the merits of an Irish television programme by the standard of the television presented in other countries. In that respect, I wonder are we being realistic? Do we realise that the advertising potential in this country is nothing like what it is in countries which have television services? It has been suggested that we could provide in this country a television programme which, in relation to the capital cost, would not entail a charge upon the Exchequer. That would indicate that the intention would be, with suitable safeguards, to give it to some commercial interest, some company that would be formed to finance it from advertising.
I can recall attending a demonstration in Dublin of the type of programme which we would get if we had that type of television service in the country. I must say that while the promoters were very fair in presenting the programme, which they said was the type of programme we could afford to have, it was anything but encouraging. It was the type of programme which, if it were put on the screen in a country cinema, you would have a number of people leaving their seats. There is attached to the very idea of television a glamour which is inclined to attract people without knowing what they will be asked to look at.
We are entitled to suggest that there is another aspect in regard to the provision of television in this country which must be considered and that is the inducement it would offer to very many families to incur debt in relation to the provision of television. There are people at the moment whom we may regard as being incapable of paying the rent of houses. The rent has to be subsidised by the State. We hear about economic stringency. Certainly, the dairy farmers of Munster who are required this year to take 1d. less a gallon for their milk would not view with very much sympathy any proposal in regard to something that is glamorous—something it would be well we could have if we could afford it.
We know that our people are not quite as down to earth in regard to many of these things as other people. Very often expense is incurred which families cannot afford and to-morrow or the next day they rush to public representatives to save some of their hospital expenses or they require the State to meet many of the necessities which any family should be prepared to meet. The State is asked to provide these services. That is reflected in the growing volume of the Estimates in this House.
Then we sometimes come up against a situation where the Government cannot get the people to save and give to the Government or industry the amount of capital which the Government and industry require. In those circumstances, the fact that the Government would be saved the capital cost of establishing a television station would be of little significance compared with the charge on the economy at large, if many thousands of people were to embark upon the expenditure of considerable sums of money on the setting up and fitting of a television station.
In this country we have a distinctive way of life. We have a neighbourliness which would to a very great extent be affected by the introduction of television. We can realise the boon which television would be to a people who in the normal sense do not mix very well, people who would like to live within their own homes and not meet the neighbours except when necessary. In this country we look at things differently.
If people are leaving the most remote parts of rural areas that is not because they cannot get entertainment, whether in the form of dancing or cinema shows. There is hardly a home in the country which has not a radio set and in such circumstances the Government would do well to exercise care in any step they take in relation to the provision of a television service. I realise that people, particularly along the east coast, in Dublin and in the northern counties, where they have already installed television sets, are naturally desirous of having an Irish television programme. It would be well if we could afford to provide that service. These are questions into which the commission will inquire.
I conclude by again asking the Minister to ensure that, whatever the Government feel they and the country can afford in relation to television, first things will come first; that we will maintain and improve the standard of the Radio Éireann programmes; that we will extend the time during which it is possible for people to listen to such programmes; that we will improve the transmissions if at all possible and that in improving them we will not forget the very large population of Irish people now resident in Britain who are so desirous, if at all possible, to hear about progress from home.
With regard to this Estimate and that discussed last night anyone who wants to know about politics to-day need only take the statement made here in regard to economy and the coolness with which Ministers come in here introducing increased Estimates and the "take-it-for granted" attitude of the people across the way. In this Estimate there is an increase of £18,000, although £13,000 was spent on equipment last year and only £1,000 this year. This money is being spent on what we call amusement. I do not think anyone can look on wireless broadcasting as anything else but amusement at the present time.
What about "Farmers' Forum"?
We farmers do find a certain amount of amusement in broadcasting especially when we listen to the weather forecast for farmers and fishermen every night. It can only be excelled by the joker in the Hospitals Sweepstakes programme when he gives out the three dead certs for to-morrow. There is about the same amount of accuracy in each. I deplore the situation where you have definite statements made in connection with economies, particularly in public services, and then you have Ministers coming in here with increased Estimates. They tell the people down the country, especially the local authorities, of the need for economy. It is about time this economy started on top. There are a few things we can very well do without even in the broadcasting system.
As regards the statements that were made by Deputy Sweetman and by Deputy O'Sullivan respectively, I consider Deputy Blaney's attitude to have been absolutely correct. It is about time that some Minister of State told some of these gentlemen exactly where they got off. I believe the Government were right in promoting him for it. The attitude I deplore in regard to all the Estimates we have met so far is that there is a tendency to cut down the income of those who are producing and to increase the income of those who are not producing.
On the question of the general programmes from Radio Éireann, I have read a few times that if music is played out in the stall it will induce the cows to give more milk. I think it would relieve our Minister for Agriculture of a large portion of his headache as regards the butter subsidy at present if some of the Radio Éireann programmes were taken out to the stall and played to the cows. It would be sufficient to stop them from giving milk and thus relieve the Exchequer to a certain extent of the necessity to subsidise butter.
Is it not supposed that music would increase the milk supply?
That is classical music, but I do not think that some of the music coming at present from Radio Éireann would be in any way conducive to better milk yields from our cows.
The Deputy is not a rock 'n' roll fan.
In relation to the remark Deputy O'Sullivan made in connection with "Farmers' Forum", may I say that as far as the farmers of this country are concerned, if there was less of the forum there would be fewer cuts in the price of their produce?
The Deputy is getting away from Wireless Broadcasting.
I am only answering a comment made by Deputy O'Sullivan. Another point on which I would disagree with the Deputy is in connection with his comment that because a man is living in a subsidised house, say, a labourer's cottage, he should not have a television set. He pays taxes when he buys tobacco, and everything else; I take it he pays his licence fee and he is as much entitled to his television set as any other gentleman in business or in any other occupation. There are people in this country who unfortunately, and fortunately for many of us, have to live in subsidised houses, houses built by the local authorities and on which the State pays a subsidy. Generally in those cases when you root out the cause of the subsidy having to be paid, it is not the unfortunate fellow who is living in the subsidised house who is to blame but those who are responsible for monopolies and rackets.
The Deputy might get back to wireless broadcasting.
The Deputy is off the beam.
I object to anyone saying that the ordinary agricultural labourer living in a labourer's cottage is not entitled to have his wireless set and listen in if he wants to.
Nobody said that.
I beg the Deputy's pardon. I would like him to read his speech afterwards.
The Deputy said the farmer did not want "Farmers' Forum."
I certainly say that teachers have already got far too much. In drawing up the programme for Radio Éireann consideration should be given to what that programme is replacing in Irish life. The light programme takes the place of what used to be the ordinary fireside chat in the country 20 or 30 years ago. For that reason, the programme presented should bear some resemblance to that mode of living.
Since, apparently, it is not possible to make recent national history a subject in our schools, perhaps we could have a little more of it on Radio Éireann. That would be good for the young people. It would certainly be better than some of the things they are hearing. I do not wish to say any more except to call the attention of the House to the fact that, despite the cry for economy, every Estimate coming before this House shows a considerable increase.
I should like to join with other Deputies who wished the Minister a speedy return to health. In the short time he has been in office he has impressed both sides by his helpfulness and his courtesy. I trust that we shall soon see him back again.
I should like, too, to compliment the acting-Minister in not following the unfortunate precedent set by the Minister for External Affairs last night. At least, the Minister this morning made an effort to justify his Department's policy and give some indication of what it is proposed to do during the coming year. He might have followed the Minister for External Affairs' example, however, in making his speech available to other Deputies as well as to Front Bench Deputies. Not so many Deputies sit here listening to Ministers introducing their Estimates and it should not cost a great deal, even in these restricted times, to provide a few more copies for those Deputies who take the trouble to come in and sit here listening to the debate.
I am sure the Minister and his officials have considerable difficulty in trying to meet the views of our small population, a population with very diversified tastes. I have a certain sympathy with the efforts made and I should like to join with others in saying that there has been a considerable improvement in the standard of broadcasting. It is difficult to supply programmes on a par with outside stations. Everybody, including myself, has his own pet ideas as to the type of programme they would like to have. One must have regard to the realities of the situation and I admit that there must be some restriction on the variety of programmes which can be broadcast. I would prefer to see the hours restricted rather than extended, as has been suggested, with the quality of the programmes of as high a standard as possible.
Reference has been made to the Radio Éireann Light Orchestra. I should like to see money spent to encourage Irish musicians to become a part of our orchestra. If we cannot get Irish musicians of a sufficiently high standard, then I should not hesitate to get the very best we can afford from outside. A good national orchestra is a tremendous advertisement. It appeals to everybody irrespective of personal idiosyncrasies.
I should like to ask the Minister to examine the possibility of establishing a studio in Limerick. I am cognisant of the fact that financial considerations colour the plans of his Department. References have been made here to the desirability of bringing our broadcasting closer to the people. We are a small country and it is desirable that we should try to make the people feel that Radio Éireann is in a particular way their own national broadcasting station. For that reason, I should like to see a studio in my own city catering for the South and West and giving an opportunity to local talent.
I should like to pay tribute to a feature which I consider one of the best in our programme. It is certainly one of the most original. I am sure the cost of it is very small. I refer to the feature known as "The School Around the Corner". I have nothing but the highest praise for that.
Did the Deputy like the Cork accent?
As a matter of fact I did. I was highly amused. That is an excellent feature. I am sure it is not outside the competence of the Minister and his officials to devise other ways in which we could get good value from our own people at very small cost.
Most of the discussion to-day has centred around Radio Éireann. I notice in the Estimates we call it "Wireless Broadcasting". I should like to say something about the other side, namely, Posts and Telegraphs.
There is a special Vote for Posts and Telegraphs.
With regard to the question of television, I suppose we shall have to await the report of the commission before the matter can be discussed further. Will the House have an opportunity of discussing the report before a decision is taken to implement it in whole or in part? I hope the commission will issue its report soon. It is very obvious to anybody coming up here from the country that the number of television masts is growing every week. If we do not get our own station into operation as soon as possible, listeners will have become so used to outside broadcasting programmes that our own will have very little appeal for them. Unlike other commissions, I hope this commission will get down to its job and present its report to the Minister as quickly as possible; and in turn, I hope the Minister will give the House an opportunity of discussing the report.
I should like Irish television to have a distinctly Irish bias. In saying that, one must have regard to the fact that we are living in the mid-20th century. One cannot disregard the fact that nowadays people, particularly young people, digest and absorb what is described as outside culture. We live in close proximity to England and we are closely connected with the United States of America and the Continent, and that proximity is bound to have its effect on our own way of life. The proper way of attacking it is not to ignore it and shut ourselves out, but to recognise it is there and bring Irish and Irish traditions out into the market place where they can survive in modern conditions and circumstances.
There is another feature the Minister might consider introducing again. Like Deputy Corish, I speak as one whose knowledge of the Irish language is extremely limited. That feature is the one known as "Listen and Learn." I think it was on twice previously. It might be reintroduced again. It is an extremely popular feature and it served a very useful purpose. I would like to ask the Minister to consult with his officials about the possibility of its reintroduction.
One of the functions of our broadcasting service here which might be extended is its use for educational purposes. In this country, we cannot, apparently, afford to endow our university and secondary education to the same extent as outside countries. It is worth considering the use of the broadcasting system to bridge some of that gap which we cannot fill, due to lack of financial resources.
I should like to congratulate the present Comhairle on the efforts they have made to improve the programmes. I should hope they will continue their efforts. I would rather concentrate on quality than quantity, and I would prefer a much shorter broadcasting time but higher quality programmes. That is the only way we will survive in this very competitive arena of the air.
At the outset, I should like to express my regret at the absence of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs because of illness. Like other speakers, I sincerely hope we shall see him back in the House in perfect health to carry out the good work we expect from him.
It was rather unfortunate that there were such changes in this ministerial post during the past 12 months. As a result, there was little or no continuity in the programme of improvement of Radio Éireann we had hoped to see carried out. Various speakers made suggestions for the improvement of the programmes, but they all admitted, as I admit, that since the setting up of the Comhairle, some improvements have been made. If the demands of the Comhairle could be met—and I hope they eventually will be—I am sure we could cater for all tastes, as far as that is possible. Of course, you cannot please everybody with a programme.
Some southern Deputies referred to the fact that the Radio Éireann programmes are not clearly received in the distant parts of the South-West. We have that grievance in South Kerry, especially the people living on the far side of the mountains. If one of the Comhairle's demands were put into operation, it would bring about satisfactory results in that respect. They have asked to have several transmitters throughout the country, instead of the one we had originally. I think the Minister stated we now have five.
As the Minister stated, the studios are entirely unsuitable. They are really only offices. There are four or five of them in the city and they are really only makeshifts. Previous Ministers referred to them in the same way. It is to be hoped that, when the financial position improves, studios will be erected which will be suitable for the proper production of programmes. Another demand made was that a second network should be established. All the deficiencies we suffer from in that way are due to lack of money. It was also asked that instead of the single transmitter we had originally and those that have been added to it, we should have several shortwave transmitters operating throughout the country.
I referred to the lack of money. It will be a long time before the commission set up in connection with television will issue their report. There are many people who would not be interested in television one way or the other because of the immense costs involved, and there are other reasons why television may not be so suitable in this country. Some Deputy suggested that instead of expending this immense sum of money setting up a television station, it should be devoted to the improvement of Radio Éireann. That would be in the near future, and then in the distant future, if the country so desired and finance was available, a television service could be established.
In connection with a television service, the Minister stated: "The Government and country will be grateful to them"—the Commission on Television—"if they can propose arrangements which will safeguard our national dignity and culture in our television service." I should like to add to that "Our Catholic and Christian outlook." That is what we have to be careful about. I do not want to dwell any longer on television. There will be time enough to do that when we have the commission's report. Like other speakers, I wish them well in their difficult task. I hope their findings will be such that the people of the country will accept them in their entirety.
The Minister stated also that Radio Éireann is a means of diffusion of the Irish language. A good deal has been done in that way, but, as Deputy Corish stated, the Irish programmes are suitable only for those who have a thorough knowledge of the language. I have often heard speakers here say that a very good method of propagating Irish would be to install radios in our schools. It is a very good idea, but there are difficulties ahead. First of all, surely the teachers would not be expected to supply the radios? Certainly, if the Department of Posts and Telegraphs were to supply them, it would cost an immense sum. Even if they were installed, there would not be sufficient school time to devote to radio programmes. The school programme is already overloaded. The minimum time would be half an hour.
Perhaps Radio Éireann could devote one hour, not nightly, but, say, three times a week, at a time when children and others would be at home, to lessons in Irish. They could have a teacher and children having certain degrees of knowledge of Irish. Lessons could be given in oral Irish, grammar and various subjects which could be followed by children and parents. There could be simple lessons at the beginning, increasing in difficulty from week to week and year to year. A suitable time might be from 7 p.m. to 8 p.m. It might be difficult for Radio Éireann to give time for such a programme but I would go as far as to suggests that, instead of closing down at 11.30, the station could remain open until 12 midnight, as most stations in Britain and on the Continent do.
I think the people in general are very pleased with the programmes and appreciate the improvements that have been made. The acting-Minister condensed a good deal of useful information in his statement. Let us hope that in the very near future, when the financial situation will allow, all the necessary improvements can be made in Radio Éireann so that there may be Irish programmes to improve the national culture, the Irish language and so on. I hope that will be the position.
The Estimate for Wireless Broadcasting provides an opportunity for discussion of the proposed national television service. I am rather surprised that speakers on the other side of the House should make the statement that the Government have still no policy in regard to television. If anything proves that we have a policy, it is the fact that we have set out to do something positive about television. It is a very vexed question and a very formidable undertaking. The fact that a commission has been set up to examine this very important project is an indication that the Government has no intention of shelving their duty in this matter. The terms of reference of the commission are very comprehensive and their investigation will take some time. I expect that the Minister, who addressed the first meeting of the commission, made it clear that the Government expects a report at the earliest possible moment. Years ago, it was typical of commissions of inquiry that there was considerable delay in producing a report. I am not competent to say whether in the past such delay was inevitable or not but we were used to that practice. That position has improved in recent times. For instance, the commission set up to inquire into the transport problem reported within the shortest possible time. I have no doubt that that will also apply in this particular instance.
The provision of a television service is a very involved business. I think it is accepted by both sides of the House that such a service will have to pay for itself and, in order that that may be possible, it will probably be necessary to have it operated on a commercial basis. When a service of that kind has to be operated on a commercial basis the Government has not the same degree of control with regard to the direction of policy as they would have in a service that was operated entirely as a State service and financed entirely by the State. If commercial interests are brought into the project for the purpose of giving it the support which, owing to financial stringency the State is not in a very good position to give at the moment, it is obvious that such commercial interests will be entitled to certain reasonable facilities and that the Minister, eventually, will have a very difficult job in that he will be between two stools. In that position it is very difficult to prevent oneself from "coming to the ground".
It was very wise on the part of the Government to set up the Commission of Inquiry and I want to congratulate the acting-Minister and the Minister, Deputy Ormonde, who, unfortunately, cannot be with us to-day, in the choice of personnel of the commission. We are all very pleased that the personnel were drawn from various interests, different political affiliations, etc. No better body could be got to deal with this very complicated question. I wish the commission every success in their deliberations and sincerely hope their report will not be too long delayed.
I hope I have made it sufficiently clear that the Government has a policy with regard to television. The Government must, however, cut its cloth according to its measure. I am quite sure that if the people on the opposite benches had been on this side they would have been far more conservative than we are on this matter. Television has made substantial progress in Britain, Europe and the United States of America, but it was not until a few months ago that anything positive was done about it in this country.
We are told that the capital cost alone of television is six times the cost of a sound system. If that is so, I am inclined to think that the cost of programme production and maintenance will be terribly high. I submit that there is a certain amount of loose thinking about the necessity for this country to embark on television programmes. This very modern service has certainly made considerable strides in the neighbouring country, but it is not because it is accepted in the neighbouring country that we should rush into it. We have a distinct way of life and we should follow that pattern as much as possible. This country is not as fortunate as other States; we have not got the opportunity for self-development that many other countries, who have fairly well perfected their television service at present, got. It is natural to expect that there are many problems here, social and economic and otherwise, which, from our point of view, it is more important for our people to solve.
I think we are in too much of a hurry with television and we are showing disappointment which should not exist because it has not been provided up to now. We have carried on pretty well socially and economically up to this, and, if we have to wait for television for another while, I do not think it will do us any harm. I shall leave the question of television there.
Regarding broadcasting in general, I think it is one of the most difficult sources of entertainment—if we call it such—that any State or individual could be asked to provide. One has to try to please the entire population of the country and, in some way or other, every citizen will criticise and endeavour to take a certain amount of interest in the national broadcasting system. I feel this medium of entertainment and information and the other purposes it serves is one of the cheapest that any Government service provides. The licence for an ordinary radio was 10/- in 1938; by 1948 it had increased to only 12/6 and the current rate is 17/6. So far as that is concerned I think there is no cause for complaint; the service is provided at a very nominal figure. The intention there I take it is that the poorer sections of the people would be able to enjoy the amenities of the radio.
Somebody reminded me there is quite a lot of money outstanding in arrears of licences. I am rather surprised to know that because I am aware that the Post Office engineering people check up on that part of the work very efficiently. Their method of approach to a person who has not paid his licence is something I am inclined to commend them for. When it is discovered that a licence is not paid a very diplomatic reminder is sent out. If the person concerned fails to respond, after some days, he gets a second reminder and as far as I understand unless the situation becomes impossible and the licensee will not renew the licence no prosecution will be instituted. I think that is the proper course because most people—I would say 99 per cent. of those who have radio sets—licence those sets and if there is any slip-up I think it is not deliberate. Where there is non-compliance it is obvious action must be taken to secure the renewal of licences. I am merely making the point that for an annual payment of 17/6 this organisation gives a very good return.
With regard to the variety of programmes, I suppose it is natural there would be quite a lot of criticism, some undoubtedly constructive, and I would even say that part of what is deemed to be destructive is not deliberately destructive. Each of us has his own idea as to what lines a programme should follow and, as I said earlier, when providing anything in the line of entertainment it is almost impossible to get any degree of unanimity. Those of us who have experience in engaging dance bands for social functions in the country know that well. I think we would be looking for far too much here if we tried to bring about a situation in which everybody would be pleased.
Criticisms were made during this debate of some views expressed by the former Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, Deputy Blaney. I believe Deputy Blaney was quite correct in giving what he regarded as an honest and factual statement in regard to a matter on which he was questioned at the Fianna Fáil organisation's Árd-Fheis. Deputy Blaney did not rush into the Árd-Fheis deliberately to make a statement to attack anybody. A resolution was on the Clár dealing with this subject and the Minister made a fair statement——
This matter is not before the House on the Estimate.
As regards the Radio Council, it is certainly a very efficient organisation but it is quite natural that criticisms will be levelled at that body from time to time. The persons on the Radio Council are quite big enough to take those criticisms and I would assure them that the general criticisms from listeners are offered in a very genuine spirit and for the purpose of trying to help and co-operate with the council in bringing about any improvement that might appear to listeners to be necessary. There is no suggestion that because these opinions are sent in in letters to the Press or because Deputies make criticisms in the Dáil it is intended to hold up the Radio Council to any form of public odium or in any way belittle the work they are doing. I think we are fortunate to have such very able men on that assignment and that we can rest assured that as far as they are concerned they are putting their best into it and endeavouring, to the best of their ability, to do the job assigned to them.
There are a few points I am very anxious to make in regard to the radio service and I am glad of the opportunity of putting these matters forward for the Minister's consideration. The musical and entertainment side of the radio programmes is such that very little improvement could, I think, be expected. Whether that improvement is possible or not, I rather feel that at the moment the line of direction has become a bit top-heavy. In a country such as this, where our agricultural industry means so much in the lives of the people, a good deal more time should be given to broadcasting agricultural subjects. I know that we have various programmes and agricultural talks, but what I feel is necessary in this case is the allocation of a definite time per day to a discussion of agricultural subjects. Perhaps it would be better to have this time allocated at night when most people who work in agriculture are free to listen. I suggest to the Minister that a half hour, or an hour at night, at about 8 o'clock, should be allocated for talks on the various aspects of our agricultural industry.
We should link up the various centres throughout the country where important debates on agriculture are taking place, so that these debates could be broadcast to interested listeners. That would be a far more effective way of meeting the requirements of our farmers than having occasional talks lasting for a quarter of an hour, half an hour or an hour at a time. Talks can, however, become rather monotonous and it would be better if we could give our listeners at stated times a broadcast of exchanges of views. That would be a distinct service to the farming community.
A panel of competent speakers should be drawn up and these speakers should be given an opportunity of coming on the air in these talks I refer to. It is a big advantage, in any radio programme, if you know that a particular item is to come on the air at the same time every night. Many people find it difficult to keep track of the time a casual programme is being broadcast. Like the news which comes on at 10.15 p.m., we would all look forward anxiously to half an hour of special discussion in connection with the many problems facing our agricultural industry, if we knew the time at which to expect them.
Broadcasts of such a nature are much more important than any political broadcasts, even broadcasts on the Budget. Unfortunately, people interested in the agricultural industry have not always the same opportunity of getting knowledge through the medium of circulars and memoranda as other people have. They can get the information over the radio more effectively than by any distribution through the medium of written documents.
I want to suggest to the Minister that the basis of the advancement of the Irish language through the radio should be reconsidered. I agree with other speakers that most people who have only a little knowledge of the language, or no knowledge at all, are right in their complaints that those who speak the language over the radio are far too advanced and are of no assistance to the person anxious to acquire a knowledge of the language. What we want is a "Listen and Learn" programme. There is such a means, through a book, which has become a very effective medium and which has given a knowledge of the language to thousands of people. We could use the radio for a "Listen and Learn" programme. No matter what adjustments we have to make and no matter what commercial revenue we may have to drop, the language is of sufficient importance to warrant half an hour of such a programme every day at a fixed time.
I am glad to have had the opportunity of making that point to the Minister. It is one of the most important factors which we could contribute to our effort to bring the language to people anxious to learn and speak it.
Like other Deputies, I regret the reason for the absence of the Minister, and I hope that he will soon be restored to good health. There is one thing that both the Minister and the acting-Minister can be assured of, that is, they have the services of a very efficient staff to assist them in their administration of the Department.
I do not wish to take advantage of the Minister's temporary incapacity to raise any awkward matters, beyond bringing to his notice some matters I have complained of for years. In his opening statement, the Minister referred to the encouragement given by Radio Éireann to Irish musicians. My complaint is that we have too many non-nationals receiving higher salaries and emoluments than the Irish musicians. I refer to the fact that within the last month we had three very brilliant musicians selected by the London Symphony Orchestra, and I was told that if they had had foreign names they would probably have been employed by Radio Éireann.
The Minister for Local Government achieved something when he criticised Radio Éireann. I am satisfied that the Comhairle is dominated by a city outlook. I notice that, in the Estimate, which is very cleverly prepared, there is no segregation of the cost of the symphony orchestra. The Comhairle is limited by the city mentality in what they put over the air for the country in general. I want to remind the Minister that the Irish people in general are the taxpayers and that there are more people in the country than those who depend on the symphony orchestra, which is in no way a national orchestra. I was assured that foreigners would be employed only on a temporary basis and that they would not displace any Irish musicians. As a matter of fact, I think the number of foreigners has increased. Our Irish musicians should get every encouragement and should be afforded every chance of being employed by Radio Éireann.
I want to draw the Minister's attention to a statement given over the B.B.C. on St. Patrick's Day. It was from a script prepared by somebody in Radio Éireann. The existence of a shamrock was denied. There was no shamrock in the country because the ground had been ploughed up by tractors. Nobody could credit that any Irishman would prepare such a script for a foreign station.
I wish to compliment Radio Éireann on the very elaborate and fair reports they give in regard to sport of all kinds but in regard to some of the sponsored programmes I object to the fact that so many of the requests are for songs of the rock'n'roll type. We should devote some of our time to our fine national songs instead of propagating foreign music which is not music at all. We should not use Radio Éireann for that purpose even in the case of requests.
We have got to consider that there are people, not all of whom are teenagers, living in the country outside of Dublin who are anxious to listen to some of our good old Irish songs. We ought to have fewer requests for foreign music. That matter should be considered by Radio Éireann. I should like to ask the Minister to suggest to the Radio Éireann authorities that we should have fewer foreign musicians. I believe we are spending a great deal of money on the symphony orchestra, and if you had a plebscite I have no doubt that a very large percentage of the people would vote against the expenditure of such a huge amount of money to suit a small section of the people. I do not deny their right to have it but we should not spend so much money in order to meet their wishes and deprive the poor man who may possess only a battery set from having the music he likes.
We have got to consider the man in the country. In the summer-time, plays are broadcast at a time when men are working in the fields. When they come back from work, they want to have some recreation other than listening to jazz music until 10 or 11 at night. Suitable programmes should be put on for the men who have to work all day in the fields so that, when they return home, they can listen to some more suitable programme than the symphony orchestra.
I would ask the Minister to look into this matter of the script prepared for St. Patrick's Day. If it was prepared by somebody in Radio Éireann, he should at least ensure that we will not have a repetition. With regard to the news, it is all right for the city folk to have the news at 6.30 p.m. with a repeat at 10 p.m., and again have it at 9 in the morning and at 1 p.m. All that, I should point out, has appeared the evening before in the newspapers. All the news which is heard the previous evening at 6 o'clock is again heard the following day. That is a matter which Radio Éireann should consider. I am endeavouring to offer helpful criticism.
I am associated mostly with the people in the country and we are paying a considerable sum of money towards Radio Éireann. I do not intend to go into the question of television because we enjoy such a position that we have television sets in most houses. We have had very good reception there for the past four or five years. People will take advantage of television and forget about Radio Éireann. I mention these points so that the Minister will draw the attention of the powers that be to them. We should try to facilitate our Irish musicians and have them employed by Radio Éireann.
My chief reason for speaking in this debate is to bring to the notice of the Minister and the Department of Posts and Telegraphs the very bad reception which we in West Cork get from Radio Éireann. I asked a question last year on this very important matter. In the Official Report of the 28th November, 1957, at column 1275, I asked the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs whether he is aware that widespread dissatisfaction exists in West Cork at the unsatisfactory reception of Radio Éireann signals there, and, if so, whether he is prepared to consider the establishment of a booster station, or the operation of similar equipment, in the West Cork district to improve reception.
I certainly got a very long and enlightening reply from the former Minister but nothing has since been done. In the reply, Deputy Blaney, the then Minister, said:—
"The West Cork area is one of a number of areas in Ireland where reception of the Radio Éireann programmes is admittedly not satisfactory..."
At the end of his reply, which is a very long one, he said:—
"During the past two years an extensive survey of ways and means to improve the coverage of Radio Éireann has been carried out by Radio Éireann engineers. I understand that the engineers are agreed that the most satisfactory solution of the problem would be to install and operate a number of V.H.F. (very high frequency) transmitters to cover the parts of the country where reception from the present transmitters is not satisfactory. The capital cost of such a scheme would, however, be very high and the annual costs of operating the stations would also be substantial. Examination of the problem will continue so that a scheme will be ready when money will be available for carrying it out."
I am wondering what progress has been made since in carrying out any scheme to improve reception in West Cork. There is a certain forecast every night after the news for the benefit of fishermen and farmers. I represent an area where 95 per cent. of the people are farmers and fishermen. In one island off our coast which is in the Gaeltacht, nine miles from the mainland, Cape Clear, the reception is shocking. The people there depend chiefly upon the fishing industry.
Something must be done for those people. Over all West Cork our people are paying their wireless licence fee the same as the people in Dublin, the Midlands and elsewhere who are getting perfect reception. Those people along the coast are subsidising the Department of Posts and Telegraphs to provide a good service for everybody but themselves. I wonder how long the Department of Posts and Telegraphs are going to continue in this fashion, taking money for a service which they are not giving in the constituency which I have the honour to represent.
I merely want to bring the matter to the notice of the Minister once again and to voice a protest against the delay in his Department in bringing about an improvement in reception which is so vital and important to the farmers and fishermen along the coast who are deriving their living from those two very important industries. It must be important when Radio Éireann gives this broadcast every night but, unfortunately, it is of very little benefit. Because of all the interruptions we cannot make out what they are saying. It was said by one member of the Skibbereen Urban Council at one stage that the noise was like that of a combine harvester. It has not improved since. As a matter of fact, I think the position has worsened.
When I read in the paper a fortnight ago of a very important commission set up for the provision of television in this country and when I thought of the vast amount of money it was going to cost the taxpayers of this country, I wondered if people realised that the position is so bad down the country that we have not got proper radio reception in our areas. The first essential step is to provide at least that reception and it can be done when, as the former Minister said to me, money is available. I do not know how long it will take before the money is available but I sincerely hope that, at least, the matter will get attention at the earliest possible moment.
Having mentioned reception from Radio Éireann in Cape Clear, I should also point out that I got a complaint from that island about the reception there on the telephone. There are times when the islanders cannot make out at all what the people on the mainland are saying to them on the telephone. That is a matter which should be looked into by the officers of the Department. It is a small thing but it concerns the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. Small things count in the long run. I have nothing further to say. I have brought the points before the Minister and his Department and I sincerely hope that something can be done about them.
Like many Deputies I feel sure, I get very little opportunity of listening to Radio Éireann programmes but when I do get the opportunity I listen in. One aspect of our programmes which worries me is the singing of Irish and Anglo-Irish ballads. To me at any rate the thing is absolutely appalling at times. Our ballads from a big part of our tradition, culture and history and they require individual treatment. When I hear some of our ballads of the marching type sung in waltz-time it worries me. I would ask the broadcasting section to look into the question of the treatment of some of these good old songs.
I noticed many times that the people singing these songs seem to think that they can change the words to suit themselves. I do not mind their changing the words if it is part of a play where some person has to sing a song but when they give us a rendering of an old ballad they should stick rigidly to the words written by the person who originally composed the ballad or song. I comment on that matter in the hope that the question will be examined if possible.
I often wonder whether the Department have power to deal with interference in regard to reception. I do not know enough about the matter to determine whether they have or not or whether their power is limited to asking people to take certain measures which will relieve neighbouring houses of interference by machines or factories and such like. Many complaints are made to me in regard to interference which disrupts the programmes. If the Minister has not the power to deal with the obvious causes of interference he should seek that power.
As far as television is concerned, I am not a bit worried. In fact, from what I have heard and read about it, I think the longer there is delay in providing us with it the better it will be for ourselves. At the same time, since a great number of people would wish to have it and since they are entitled to have it if they wish, I hope, when it is introduced, we shall have the best possible service. Some Deputy suggested that we would be able to regulate the programmes which the people would receive. I hope that is so, but relayed programmes will come in and our people will have to put up with them. I hope that the question of the relaying of programmes from outside will be fully considered by the commission which is sitting before they make recommendations to the Minister.
I should like to ask the Minister to consider the question of keeping our Radio station open until 12 midnight. Most people are out until 11 p.m. or 11.15 p.m. They may be at the pictures or even in the pub and cannot get home until 11 p.m. or after that hour. They are just in nice form to sit down and switch on the wireless but they cannot get Radio Éireann programmes at that time. People like to hear the news and like to know what is happening in the outside world. They do not like waiting. In fact, nobody likes waiting. I suggest that the Minister should consider leaving our station open until 12 o'clock. British and other stations are open until 12 o'clock.
With regard to television, a very large number of people purchase television sets. They can get them on a weekly payment basis. We may be losing a lot of revenue. They will sell their old set but they will not bother to take out a licence. It is important, therefore, that not only should we expedite the findings of the Television Commission but that we should also make our programmes so attractive that people will want to continue listening to the wireless.
In case the Minister does not know, many people look on Radio Éireann programmes as a kind of ham programme. There is an old saying that one man's meat is another man's poison. What I might think is a good programme, some rural person might think is a bad one, but so far as the people in the city are concerned a very large number of them just listen to the news and, perhaps, to the Sweepstake programme. They then turn to the B.B.C. or Radio Luxemburg. If those stations could jam their programmes and were not capable of reception here very few people would bother getting a licence. We must make our programmes worth listening to. I am aware of the need for educational programmes, but we can overdo that. In America the programmes are all commercial and big business. They know how to go about things.
With reference to the use of Radio Éireann during election time, may I say that during the last election each of the Parties was granted an opportunity to speak to the public at large, but no opportunity was given to Independents to speak.
The Parties speak to the whole country, the Independents only to one constituency.
No. There is a certain point of view in regard to which Independents could be said to be in full agreement, and that is the need for Independents. Leaving aside their particular line of policy, there could be agreement among the Independents as to the selection of an Independent to speak. I hold there is always need for Independents. We have not to think of what someone else is thinking. We just have to think for ourselves. Party members have to think of what their Whip will say or whether they might be letting down somebody on their side. We do not have to think along those lines.
That is a pity.
In some cases it is a pity, but in most cases it is a good thing. It is strange that when there is need to judge between people it is always an Independent that is selected. We have a certain point of view and we should be granted the opportunity of speaking when it is given to the different Parties. It is bad enough for Independents to be boycotted in the Press, but to be boycotted on Radio Éireann is going a little bit too far. During the last election not only was my name not mentioned on Radio Éireann but it was not mentioned in a certain newspaper from the beginning to the end of the campaign. Independents should be given the opportunity to put a certain point of view which would be common to all of them. The peculiar thing about Parties is that the leader is an Independent because the Party accepts his leadership. They do not dispute his viewpoint. Take the Taoiseach. Who disputes what he says?
In relation to radio licences, there are people such as old age pensioners and people suffering from certain afflictions who have no income besides their pensions. They should be granted free licences. We should lose little by it. Such people might be tempted to obtain a radio on the hire-purchase system but they might not be able to afford the licence fee. Furthermore, the same fee should not be required for battery sets as main sets. There is too much expense attached to getting batteries charged, and so on. The people who rely on battery sets are people in out-of-the-way places who should be encouraged to listen to the radio. There should be a reduction of at least 5/- in their fee.
I should like, first of all, to thank members on both sides of the House who expressed good wishes for the speedy recovery of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, Deputy Ormonde. I think I can say I am now looking forward to spending a shorter period as acting-Minister than I thought would be likely at first. I have very good hopes that Deputy Ormonde will be back sooner than we expected.
I also thank Deputies generally for the manner in which they have approached this debate. A number of helpful suggestions were made and, generally speaking, the approach was of a constructive nature. That is, of course, apart from the personal attacks made on Deputy Blaney, in regard to the period he held office as Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. To me, at any rate, these attacks did not ring true and they seemed to have been introduced purely as a means of bringing any kind of controversy into the debate. I do not believe the people who made the attacks thought for one moment that Deputy Blaney had spoken on any matter that was not within his competence as Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. I do not propose to follow the line which some Deputies attempted to lay down for me. Instead I shall deal with some of the practical points raised in connection with the Estimate.
Criticism was made of my opening remarks in that early on in the speech I said that I did not propose to say any more about television and that subsequently it was mentioned quite a good deal. That, I suppose, is a legitimate criticism, but my further remarks in connection with television were for the purpose of demonstrating that, in spite of the probable imminence of the introduction of a television programme here, it was still necessary to pay a considerable amount of attention to the sound broadcasting system. I could not very well make those points without making some reference to television and to what the situation would be when television came.
Generally speaking, the setting up of the commission to advise the Government with regard to the establishment of a television programme was well received. One or two Deputies, I think, did try to paint the setting up of that commission as an indication that the Government could not make up its mind in this respect. However, those very same Deputies would be very critical, indeed, if the Government had made a decision on this important matter without taking reasonable steps to secure the views of the different groups in the community who are concerned with the provision of a television service. We would have been subjected to very grave criticism had we, in fact, taken a decision without taking these steps.
The composition of the commission, comprising as it does representatives of very widely differing interests in the community, is an earnest of the Government's desire to secure the widest possible advice on this important matter. Certainly I think it a good thing that we have taken these steps. Every group concerned in the matter can put its views before the commission. Indeed, I am sure that some of the views expressed here today will be given serious consideration by the commission and will, in fact, prove helpful to that body in its deliberations.
Some Deputies expressed the opinion that it will be a long time before the commission reports. I do not think it fair to start off on that assumption. The commission has only just been set up and we should at least give it a chance to prove itself. My information is that they have got down to work very quickly and are displaying a considerable amount of energy in approaching their task. I hope that the commission will report in a reasonable time. The initial signs are good.
The Minister did not set them any time limit.
I did not set them any definite time limit, but they intend to complete their task—I know that— as soon as possible and I do not think it fair for some Deputies to condemn them before they have started.
The views expressed generally in the debate in relation to the standard of the programmes were for the most part favourable. I found the approach very reasonable. Deputies seem to appreciate that it is not possible in a single programme to satisfy every taste. There was, however, a keen appreciation of the efforts that are being made to cater to some extent for all tastes.
Deputy Sweetman asked me to clarify a point with regard to the estimate I gave in relation to the cost of providing television. The position is that the estimate I gave of its costing six times as much as sound broadcasting refers to the actual programme cost. That is the estimate at the moment.
Deputy Corish suggested that it would be a good idea to open the lunch time programme at 12.30 instead of 1 o'clock. I shall have that matter examined but, in the listener research that was carried out some time ago, there was no demand for that particular time.
Deputy Corish also asked if there was an effective control over the type of material broadcast in the sponsored programmes. In theory, at any rate, the director has complete control but, in exercising that control, he has to recognise the fact that these people are paying heavy fees. The reason they do so is to ensure that their programmes will be listened to by the largest possible number of people. There cannot, therefore, be too rigid a control and the director cannot be too strict in imposing control. I know that he does try to exercise continuous pressure on those responsible for these programmes with a view to getting them to improve the standard and to maintain that improved standard once he has succeeded in getting it. I think the criticism of the sponsored programmes was a little bit severe. Some of them are quite all right. There are some, however, of which few of us here would approve. At the same time, we must remember that these people are paying big fees, and we must allow them to choose the type of programme which they believe will achieve results for them.
A number of Deputies referred to the programmes in Irish and the view was expressed that these programmes cater only for those who already have a competent knowledge of Irish. Some Deputies expressed the opinion that it would be desirable that more programmes in Irish should be devoted to beginners and to those who are not so competent in order to bring their proficiency to a higher pitch. I can understand that viewpoint but the time, of course, at the disposal of the director is limited. We have the Gaeltacht areas and, throughout the country generally, we have people who wish to have such items as the news given in Irish. It is desirable that we should cater for such people. Listening to good speakers will have a good effect even on those who are not so proficient. If they listen consistently, they are bound to improve. There are, of course, other ways in which people who desire to improve their knowledge of the language can do so.
I was glad that so many Deputies referred to the "Listen and Learn" programme. Judging by the debate to-day there appears to be a fair demand for a repetition of that programme or one of a similar nature. That feature was obviously a popular one. I agree it is desirable to use the radio in every way possible as an instrument to promote the more efficient speaking of Irish. That is one suggestion to which I am sure the director will give very close attention.
I was glad to hear the praise that was given to the orchestras. Some Deputies asked for a greater utilisation of the light orchestra in radio programmes. My information is that that orchestra is actually working to full capacity at the moment. It is on in three programmes a week. The importance of it and its outstanding merit are appreciated by the Radio Éireann authorities. I might mention here that the light orchestra is being given the honour of providing the concert to mark the opening of the new Cork studios next June. That, in itself, is evidence of the importance that is attached to it.
A number of Deputies elaborated on my opening remarks regarding the difficulty of receiving Radio Éireann programmes in certain parts of the country. Naturally, there were demands that this matter should be attended to as soon as possible. I outlined some of the difficulties in my speech, the difficulties due to the geographical position of the areas concerned. To get over them, the position is as was explained in the reply to the parliamentary question which Deputy Wycherley read out. It can be got over only by the provision of very high frequency radio and that will be a very expensive business. The financial position at the moment simply does not permit of it and the provision of very high frequency must wait on capital becoming more freely available. Certainly it is a matter which is regarded very seriously by the Department and the authorities in Radio Éireann, and I can assure Deputies that it will be dealt with as soon as it is possible to do so.
Ceann de na rúdaí ar thagair an Teachta Mac Cárthaigh dóibh go gcaithimid rud éigin a dhéanamh i dtreo is go mbeidh cláracha Radio Éireann le cloisint go soiléir, go mór mhór i gContae Chorcaighe. Pé sgéal e, níl an t-airgead ann leis an scéal a leasú. Dúirt an Teachta Mac Cárthaigh freisin go n-aontáionn sé go bhfuil feabhas tagtha ar an gClár Craolacháin ag Radio Éireann agus go bhfuil dul chun cinn níos mó á dhéanamh. Tá a lan rúdaí a thagann isteach sa scéal agus caithfimíd ár ndícheall a dhéanamh le gach cineál daoine a shású. Ní féidir clár craolacháin a thaithneodh leis na daoine go léir a chur ar fáil an t-am ar fad. Tá an deacracht sin ann ach tá na daoine atá i gceannas an stáisiúin ag deánamh a ndícheall chun clár sásúil a chur ar fáil do gach éinne.
Deputy O'Sullivan was the first to refer to the news broadcasts and other Deputies referred to them also. I think these references illustrate the difficulty of satisfying everybody in this respect. Deputy O'Sullivan pointed out that he thought there should be more frequent news broadcasts and that they should be more condensed. Shortly afterwards, another Deputy expressed the view that there were too many news broadcasts already and that one or two fairly detailed news broadcasts would be sufficient.
That is the type of problem the authorities in Radio Éireann have to solve—to try to reconcile these two different viewpoints. I feel they have made a fairly good job of reconciling them. We had people here claiming that the too frequent repetition of news broadcasts would prove irritating to the listeners. On the other hand, we had the request made by some Deputies for more frequent news broadcasts. The present system is fairly satisfactory all round. The view that obtains at the moment is that more frequent news broadcasts would not be very well received.
Deputy Moloney and some other Deputies referred to the desirability of having more frequent broadcasts dealing with agricultural matters and that these should be at more regular intervals. The position at the moment is that there are three regular agricultural features per week. I do not think that is too bad, considering the difficulty with regard to time and the fact that only one programme is available. It is generally accepted that the main function of the radio is to entertain people and, while we do try to make the programmes instructive as well, we cannot go too far or the programmes will not be listened to at all, or certainly not to the extent we would like. There may be a case for giving the programmes generally a greater agricultural bias. That is one of the suggestions I will ask the director to look into.
Deputy Everett referring, I think, to the symphony orchestra, said there were too many non-nationals in it. I find it hard to believe that the people responsible for recruiting that orchestra deliberately gave preference to non-nationals. In tackling the establishment of a symphony orchestra, it is natural they should have had in mind the establishment of an orchestra of the highest possible standard. Seeing that it was a matter of such cultural importance and widespread interest, I do not think we can blame them if they have taken in a certain number of people who are not nationals of this country, provided that the qualified persons responsible did not think there were suitable native musicians available to fill the posts in the orchestra. Generally speaking, I am in agreement with the idea that, where possible, preference should be given to our native musicians. I should be very surprised if that idea is not the predominant one in this case.
Why apply that to the symphony orchestra alone? That principle could apply to anything in the country.
I do not think so. In regard to most things, you have always got people who are capable of doing the job. As I say, I do not know much about this myself, but I feel there is not much point in setting up a symphony orchestra, unless we can set up a really good one. If it was the case that, for particular posts, there were not musicians of sufficiently high standard available in the country, I do not think there was any great fault in going outside the country.
Can the Minister say how many were employed within the last year or two?
I do not know of any individual cases. If Deputies have cases where they think non-nationals were employed unnecessarily, I shall be glad to look into them. I imagine that the idea was to render a service to music in Ireland. It may be that the bringing in of some outstanding musicians to the orchestra would have a good effect generally in raising the standard and Irish musicians would not, I imagine, greatly resent the bringing in of outstanding musicians in that respect. However, generally speaking, I favour the viewpoint that as far as possible, we certainly should employ our own musicians, provided they are of sufficiently high standard. I do not know of any case in which that has not been done.
I have not dealt with all the points raised. There were a number of suggestions made which I consider well worth looking into. A note has been taken of every matter raised here and, while I may not have dealt with all the points in concluding, I can assure the House that every point raised will be looked into by the people concerned.
