I move:
That a sum not exceeding £26,000 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1966, for a Grant (Grant-in-Aid) to An Chomhairle Ealaíon.
Supplementary Estimate, 1965-66. - Vote 12—An Chomhairle Ealaíon.
I wish to make two representations on this Vote. I thought Doctor Bowdler had finally died and was buried years ago and I think it is a public scandal that An Chomhairle Ealaíon should resurrect him. They have perpetrated the outrage of bowdlerising the poems of Emily Lawless. The publication was a most admirable thing to do. But they did not publish all her poems but made selections from three volumes, one publicly published and two privately published. Can one conceive it to be true that An Chomhairle Ealaíon took these excellent poems and bowdlerised them? The poems were published as her poems with large lumps cut out of the middle of them. Whatever literary outrage was perpetrated by the Hun, I submit the bowdlerising of Emily Lawless's poems in that fashion outdid it as an outrage.
An Chomhairle Ealaíon, I believe, were the source of the recommendation adopted by the Government, communicated to us, that we should erect a theatre concert hall that would cost about £2 million as a memorial to the late President Kennedy and that there should be an annual appropriation of between £10,000 and £20,000 a year for its maintenance. This proposal has been adopted by the Government on the submission of An Chomhairle Ealaíon at a time when we are pulling down two fine theatres in the city. We pulled down the Theatre Royal and now we are going to pull down the Gaiety. We are going to build another theatre out at Ballsbridge at a time when we cannot keep the Gaiety open.
I would ask the Minister, now that we are on this Estimate, to suggest to An Chomhairle Ealaíon that they should examine this whole question again. I venture to suggest to the Minister that if it has now transpired that we cannot keep one theatre going by public support, we ought to review the whole question as to whether this proposal for a memorial to President Kennedy is a suitable one at all. When you think, if we are right in our calculation, that the proposal of An Chomhairle Ealaíon is going to cost a capital sum of £2 million and an additional sum of £10,000 to £20,000 a year to maintain over and above any receipts that may accrue from its use, we could give in perpetuity about 100 scholarships, at least sufficient to bring Irish students to any academic institution in the world, America, the Continent or anywhere else. Surely it would be worth considering this whole proposal and arranging for such subsidy as may be necessary to keep the Gaiety Theatre in existence as a concert hall or any other purpose that would be suitable and to vote the capital sum for some educational project to perpetuate the memory of the late President of the United States.
I cannot help feeling this Estimate should not be allowed to pass without at least inviting the Minister and Oireachtas Éireann to look again at this recommendation of An Chomhairle Ealaíon, which commends itself to the Government, and which was announced as the Government decision on foot of An Chomhairle Ealaíon's recommendation. I urge the Minister to call on An Chomhairle Ealaíon to justify why they bowdlerised the poems of a great Irish poetess, to withdraw this infamous publication and substitute for it a suitable collection of Emily Lawless's poems which will faithfully reproduce the verses she wrote.
I addressed a number of questions to the Minister for Finance today in relation to the Gaiety Theatre. I am expressing myself very mildly when I say many people will be disappointed with the Minister's replies to those questions. It is quite clear the Minister himself would like to provide an additional subsidy for the live theatre in Ireland's capital city but he feels he is limited by present financial conditions from giving that subsidy.
The Gaiety Theatre has served the people of this nation in a commendable way in the arts for decades past. It is a first-class theatre in perfect condition. It could not be built today for anything less than, I suppose, between £400,000 to £500,000. Deputy Dillon has referred to the fact that An Chomhairle Ealaíon has recommended that £2 million be spent on the erection of another structure in another part of the city which will provide accommodation for a similar number of people as can already be accommodated in the Gaiety Theatre. Reports, which we have seen last week, indicate that the price being offered by a foreign concern for the Gaiety Theatre is in the region of £200,000. We have in the centre of Dublin a building, with a tradition of making a useful contribution to the fine arts, already available for one-tenth the cost of what it is proposed to spend on a building out in Ballsbridge. I would earnestly recommend to the Minister that he use every persuasive power at his disposal to ensure that the Gaiety Theatre is not closed down and demolished.
The Dublin theatre at the moment is in a precarious state. The Olympia Theatre is under a cloud at the moment. It has been rescued from the block by the enterprise of a number of theatre folk but we all live in dread of the final news that, notwithstanding our efforts, it is going to be knocked down. The Queen's Theatre is almost certain to go as soon as the Abbey goes out. In any event, it is not entirely a satisfactory building. It is unlikely to be an economic proposition in any respect.
It is vital for the natural cultural interest of this country that the Gaiety Theatre be maintained. I feel the Minister, as an individual, would wish it to remain. There are literally tens of thousands of people in this city and country who feel the same. I believe it would be a national disgrace as much as any other kind of disgrace for Dublin if it should go. I know the Minister may reiterate that it is up to Dublin Corporation to provide financial assistance for the Gaiety Theatre. Dublin Corporation are undoubtedly considering the matter but I feel, when their primary obligation at the present time is to try to devote any moneys they have towards solving the appalling housing crisis in the city, they may feel, in these circumstances, they are unable to come to the rescue of the Gaiety. This is a national question.
Quite frequently, CIE put on a train service and a bus service to bring people from the length and breadth of this island to the Gaiety Theatre. This will indicate the national interest which exists in many of the performances in the Gaiety. That is why the Minister should have referred to the national service the Gaiety provides.
The Abbey Theatre is likely to be limited to a particular type of drama by reason of the memorandum and articles of association of the National Theatre Society. It is necessary to have a broader outlook in cultural matters than that which can be obtained through the Abbey. The Gaiety has served the public well over the years and on that account I would hope the Minister would ensure the necessary arrangements are made to save it for the nation.
This proposal explains the position of housing in Dublin. We have a Deputy representing the city of Dublin who is more worried about the theatre than about how many houses we will build for the couple of million we are speaking about here. I do not know what my friend, the Deputy, wants to perpetuate. I told a story here this afternoon in connection with the Gaiety Theatre.
Acting Chairman
The Deputy would not be in order in telling stories at this stage. We are on the Estimate for An Chomhairle Ealaíon.
We are on a proposal put up here by a Dublin Deputy for the expenditure of further money for the Dublin theatre.
Acting Chairman
This must not develop into an argument. We must keep to the Estimate.
Two old friends of mine were coming to Dublin one day and one asked the other: "John, what are you going to do to-night?" They would arrive in Dublin about 6 o'clock. The other said: "I will go to the Gaiety. There is a lassie there with a good high kick." The first man said: "Oh, shame on you, John, talking that way." John went to the Gaiety and there sitting in the seat in front of him looking for the high kick was his friend. I wonder is that what is bothering the Deputy from Dublin when he talks about perpetuating the Gaiety?
On a point of order. Would someone tell me is it proposed to complete the business to-night as arranged, or are we to continue listening to funny stories?
Acting Chairman
It has been arranged that we will conclude to-night. The Minister, to conclude.
Three points were raised, two by Deputy Dillon, and one by Deputy Ryan which was, to an extent, an extension of one of the points raised by Deputy Dillon. So far as the publication of the Emily Lawless poems is concerned, An Chomhairle Ealaíon was invested with a certain degree of autonomy. It was considered necessary that such a body should have a degree of autonomy, and I am sure there are literary experts on the Board. While I have sympathy with the point made by Deputy Dillon about the bowdlerisation of the Emily Lawless poems, there may be good reasons for what was done.
There could not be. Imagine an ex-Minister for Education saying there could have been good reason for bowdlerising poems!
I said there may be good reasons, perhaps not aesthetic reasons, but other reasons. I do not know. I am convinced that when we set up a board of this nature—and particularly in the field of arts—we must repose our confidence in it and leave to it the degree of autonomy most people feel it should have.
Not to the point of bowdlerising poems.
I do not know to what extent Deputy Dillon was speaking on behalf of his Party when he referred to the President Kennedy Memorial Hall. I think the erection of this hall was agreed upon in the House. An all-Party committee is still sitting and by virtue of my office, I preside over it, and there has not been any proposal from any member of the committee along the lines of the proposal now made by Deputy Dillon. It is a great lack in the life of any capital city not to have a concert hall of the type contemplated as the President Kennedy Memorial Hall. I do not believe the alternative suggestion now made by Deputy Dillon would find common acceptance throughout the country and, indeed, I am sure not in Dublin.
The Minister might be surprised.
There are means available to Deputy Dillon to have his point of view canvassed and considered. The committee to which I referred sits regularly, and will be having another meeting before the end of the month. Perhaps Deputy Dillon would expound his views in another place before the committee sits again.
The Minister knows my views now, and he can expound them as much as he likes.
Deputy Dillon's Party are fully and adequately represented on that committee and certainly no proposal of the nature——
We were never consulted about the decision. We were informed that the Government had accepted the proposal of An Chomhairle Ealaíon. We were never asked for our opinion.
In my recollection, the decision was taken almost two years ago, and this is the first suggestion that it should be changed. I suppose it is possible to change something that has not been done, but I doubt that it would meet with general approval.
I want to assure Deputy Ryan that I should be very sorry to see the Gaiety disappear. It would create a void in the entertainment life of Dublin—and I stress the word "entertainment" because in the Gaiety we got grand opera, ballet, straight theatre, and many other forms of entertainment.
Did the Corkmen go to them?
I do not know; I suppose it would depend on whether they were young or old. In general, as I said in reply to Parliamentary Questions this morning, I have a lot of sympathy with those affected by the decline in support for the theatre throughout the country, but I believe that any assistance given by the Government should be in the nature of assistance to the theatre in general throughout the country, and I do not think it right that the Government should be expected to come to the assistance of a commercial venture like the Gaiety Theatre. Any assistance we give to the Gaiety and other theatres should be to maintain their existence for the purpose of presenting drama, and I hope the assistance we can give will have that effect.
I do not think any other points were raised. I can assure Deputy Ryan that if any specific proposal comes from the citizens of Dublin, supported by the corporation, along the lines of the proposal made by the Cork citizens, and supported by Cork Corporation, I will be prepared as Minister for Finance to recommend to the Government that they should look favourably at it.
Fair enough. Agreed, under protest on behalf of the late Emily Lawless.
Vote put and agreed to.