asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries the total number of applications for grants for the erection of large-scale pig rearing units in each of the last three years; and the number approved.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Pig Rearing Units.
21.
The scheme of grants for large-scale pig fattening units was introduced in June, 1968. Nine applications were received during the year ended the 31st May, 1969, of which four were approved. Since 1st June, 1969, to date the number of applications received has been nine of which three have been approved.
Are we to understand from the reply that the large-scale pig fattening unit is one that carries a minimum of 3,000 pigs at one time? If that assumption is correct, has the Minister applications for units of, say, up to 3,000 pigs in respect of which he does not give particulars in his reply? Is that assumption correct, that the units to which the Minister refers are units that will carry at least 3,000 pigs at one time, the exceptionally big ones?
That is right. The big ones have a minimum of 3,000 pigs.
The Minister has not particulars of units carrying 1,500 or 2,000 or 2,500, or carrying a four-figure number at one time?
If the Deputy means an enterprise carrying less than 3,000 pigs, they do not qualify for the other type of grant. They get the flat rate grant——
They get 8s per square foot?
That is right.
Does the Minister think it reasonable, taking into account the general position of pig production, to allow a grant of, say, 8s per square foot to a combine or an individual qualified for a grant in respect of accommodation to carry 2,500 pigs at one time?
This would be a matter for the promoters of the particular scheme. I think it is quite reasonable. The promoters of the scheme have a choice as to which course they adopt.
22.
asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries whether he is aware that the erection of large-scale pig rearing units is detrimental to the interests of traditional pig rearing producers; and whether he proposes to take any steps to ensure that the livelihood of traditional pig producers is not gravely affected.
I do not accept that the eradication of large-scale fattening units is detrimental to the interests of traditional pig producers. In particular, pig producers who are members of co-operative societies operating such units greatly benefit from their activities. All applicants are required to show that they have made suitable arrangements with farmers for the supply of bonhams. The units can, of course, be of particular benefit to farmers who sell their pigs at the bonham stage.
I would point out that the grants for farm piggeries were substantially improved when the scheme for large-scale units was introduced, the aim being to encourage those farmers who rear and fatten their own pigs to increase the size of their enterprises.
Is the Minister aware that he said "eradication" instead of "erection"?
Did I say "eradication"?
Yes.
Is it not true that successive Governments have endeavoured to get farmers and cottiers to increase their numbers of pigs and sows? Is it not equally true that such people are now increasing these numbers? In the light of that position, will the Minister not accept that, if large combines are allowed to build units carrying 1,000, 2,000 or 3,000 pigs at the one time, together with sow units quite near to supply bonhams, the traditional pig producer will be wiped out as happened in the fowl and egg industry, and the production of pigs will be confined——
This is a speech.
——to large combines or individuals who have sufficient capital to fatten at least 1,000, 2,000 or 3,000 pigs at a time?
Question No. 23 to the Minister for Justice.
Take your time, Sir.
Arising out of the Minister's reply——
The Minister did not reply to my supplementary.
The Deputy has made a very long speech.
I asked questions.
May I inquire from the Minister if he would agree with me that we have not been in a position to fill our bacon quota in England for many years and that, far from injuring the small producer, greater production of pigs by these pig fattening stations will be a great boon and a great benefit to this country if we produce the proper article?
I agree wholeheartedly with Deputy O'Hara and I am surprised that Deputy Murphy from the Labour Party, whose agricultural policy devotes a great deal of time to the principle of co-operation in farm production and, I think, specifically mentions pig production——
The Minister must have read it. Coming events cast their shadows.
I would like to say to Deputy Murphy and the members of the Labour Party that the development and modernisation of the pig industry is not for the sake of modernisation in itself. The whole purpose of the operation is to increase the incomes of the small producers. The pig industry is particularly suited to the small farmer. The size of a farm does not determine the size of the pig enterprise operated on it. It is fallacious to suggest that because certain enterprising people, including people in west Cork, are expanding their pig operations, they are having a detrimental effect on somebody else. The case is, as Deputy O'Hara says, that any progressive small farmer who wants to develop his pig enterprise can do so with greatly increased grants. There is no question at all of the small person being steam-rolled out. In fact, most of the grants paid to date have been paid to cooperatives which consist of small farmers.
To use the Minister's own term, surely it is fallacious for him to make the statements he has just made? Surely he will agree that the market is limited? Taking into account what his Parliamentary Secretary across the way said, that we were unable to fulfil our quota, is it not reasonable to assume, particularly coming from me, a Deputy representing an area in which 11 per cent of our pigs are produced, that if these large combines get free rein and grants and help from the Department, the small producers, the farmers and cottiers who have been producing pigs down through the years, will be wiped out eventually? Does the Minister not appreciate that many small farmers derive a significant percentage of their income from this source? Surely it is unfair for the Department to sit idly by and allow that to happen? To conclude let me say——
Keep going.
Will the Minister not read the statements made by his predecessor, Deputy Blaney, in which he agreed with the viewpoint that a danger exists of the small producers being wiped out as they were wiped out in the poultry and egg industry?
Before the Minister replies——
Let him answer my question.
Does the Minister agree that for a long period bacon factories have been working on short time with consequent seriously increased costs in production and that it is absolutely necessary and imperative in this day and age that we increase our pig numbers to produce bacon efficiently?
Were it not for the importation of pigs across the Border half the bacon factories would be closed down.
Question No. 23.
Let the Minister reply to my question.
I suggest that Deputy O'Hara should take Deputy Murphy aside some day and indoctrinate him with the basic facts.
I am as conversant with the facts as any other Deputy.
The Deputy should not interrupt. I was surprised at Deputy Murphy referring to a farmers' co-operative as a big combine coming in to squeeze out the small farmers.
I do not care what they are called.
He should realise that is nonsense.
I am against big combines taking over.
Deputy Murphy's question refers to traditional pig rearing producers. I do not know what a traditional pig is. I know that if Deputy Murphy tries to pretend to his constituents that old-fashioned methods have any place in keeping small farmers in the countryside he is gravely mistaken.
(Interruptions.)
We cannot remain on this question the whole evening.
It is an important question.