asked the Minister for Local Government if he is aware of the grave hardship imposed on the tenants of new county council houses due to the fact that rates are charged from the date of appointment of the tenants; and if he will take steps to alleviate this hardship.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Local Authority House Rates.
47.
I am not so aware. The arrangements for the collection of rates on local authority houses are a matter for each local authority and one in which I have no function. I might add, however, that in cases of hardship a local authority has a discretion to accept less in rent and rates from the tenant than the minimum required under the renting scheme applicable to his house.
That is not the question I asked the Minister. I am quite sure he is aware of what I am trying to find out. I asked him if he is aware of the grave hardship imposed on tenants of new county council houses due to the fact that rates are charged from the date of appointment of the tenants. Would the Minister say why there should be an arrangement for the tenants of local authority houses which does not apply to persons who build their own houses and can he give any hope that something will be done to try to prevent this happening? The Minister is aware, of course, that the rates run from 75p per week to over 150p.
Yes. I am not aware of any great hardship. The local authority have a discretion in this matter.
Is the Minister saying that the local authority can, if they so desire, not collect the rates from the tenants of these houses?
I am not. As far as I am aware, the local authority are obliged to collect the rates from the date of the tenancy and included in the payments made by the tenant there should be an element of rates and rent, once the person is appointed tenant of the house.
Could the Minister explain something else? Does he mean to say that in the rent being fixed, whether graded, differential or anything else, the rate element is included in the rent?
No. The rent and the rates are shown separately.
What is the Minister trying to tell me? I am afraid I am rather confused.
As far as I am concerned, there is an obligation on the local authority when letting houses, whether new or otherwise, to tenants, to ensure that the payment the tenant makes shall include an element of rates and an element of rent.
In fact, the tenant pays £2 per week for rent and a further £1.50 for rates, even though it is a new houses. That is £3.50. Whereas, his neighbour who builds a house himself and who may be a wealthy man, does not pay any rates the first year, pays one-ninth the second year, two-ninths the third year, and so on up to ten years. Would the Parliamentary Secretary not bother to advise the Minister? The Minister is well able to look after himself.
I would point out to the Deputy that I referred to this matter when replying to the debate on the Supplementary Estimate just before lunch. I gave a fairly full expose of my views on the matter and the law relating to the matter.
I am sorry that the Minister does not seem to be able to give it to me now. I will get it in some other way.
I do not accept the principle that the Deputy is promoting, that some rates concession should be given to tenants of local authority houses because the houses are new. The Deputy is making a comparison between these tenants and persons who are in private houses. I do not accept that the two are comparable and that a rates concession should be given to each local authority tenant, because what he pays is related to his capacity to pay, which does not arise in the case of a person buying a house.
In rent, yes, not in rates.
A de-rating scheme can be applied in the case of a local authority tenant if it is deemed that the rates element is a burden on the tenant.
Every rate is a burden.
Well, a hardship on the tenant.
Is the Minister aware that in cases where there is unemployment in a household and the differential rent is availed of, the rates are not reduced?
I issued a circular letter to local authorities in April, 1969, which gives guidance on the formulation of rates waiver schemes and in which it is stated that the Minister's consent might be assumed to the inclusion of a hardship clause—we know about that—and also that the rate rebate for tenants on differential rents was to be applied in the same way as that allowed to persons who are not tenants of local authority houses.
Question No. 48.
Wait now, a Cheann Comhairle.
We cannot discuss this question all evening. Deputy Tully had at least five supplementaries.
Thank you very much.
People may seek concessions with regard to the minimum rent but, unfortunately, there is a deadline for applications for waiver of rates. This would not be to the advantage of a tenant who may be unemployed for three months or six months.
I suggest to the Deputy that the county manager has discretion regarding the rate element in the payment made by a tenant. If the tenant can show reasonable cause that he is suffering hardship because of the amount he has to pay, whether it is the rent or the rate element, the county manager has discretion to reduce the amount. This ensures that no grave hardship will fall on any tenant in a local authority house.
May I bring a case to the Minister's attention——
The Deputy may not bring a case at this stage. I am calling Question No. 48.
Deputy O'Connell should remember that on one or two occasions he brought cases to my notice. I took steps to alleviate hardship in a certain case and, in fact, the people about whom he made representations had the rate element reduced and thereby benefited from my intervention.
I agree, but I do not think I should have to go to the Minister on every occasion.
I do not see why the Deputy comes back to me now asking for information on some matter when I have shown him how the system works.
It is because I have come up against a stone wall with his Department and the Dublin Corporation.
I have called Question No. 48.
The Chair should realise that Deputies are entitled to ask supplementary questions. The Chair is constantly trying to stop us asking these questions.
That is not true. Deputies are not allowed to make speeches at Question Time. The Deputy is abusing Question Time.
The matter may not be important to the Chair but it is important to others.
The Deputy is making a speech on this question.
This matter is important to many poor people even if it is not important to the Chair. If the Ceann Comhairle is in a hurry to get off——
I am not in a hurry.
These are important questions. We have until 5 o'clock and I do not think the Chair should be in a hurry to rush off.
I think the Deputy should withdraw the implication in the statement he has made with regard to the Ceann Comhairle. Everyone in the House knows it is not true. The Ceann Comhairle is bound by the rules.