asked the Minister for Education the estimated cost (a) of the two schools and the specialist block proposed for Thurles, County Tipperary, and (b) of a single school to cater for the same number of students involved in the joint venture.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Thurles School Proposals.
43.
Mr. R. Burke
Discussions as to the precise form of the development of the school complex are proceeding. Until such time as these discussions have been concluded, it will not be possible to give an accurate estimate of the cost of the proposed buildings.
This is a general question. Is it proper that the Secretary of the Department of Education should have discussed the subject matters of these questions before the Minister replied to these questions in the House?
That is a separate question.
Would the Minister agree that to build one school would be much cheaper than to build the schools he has in mind? If this is so —and all my experience says it is— the Minister has stated there are many schools in need of replacement and reconstruction—how can he justify spending the extra money in this case?
Mr. R. Burke
I would agree that marginally it is cheaper to build one school than to build a complex such as this. It is cheaper to build a complex such as this than to build two separate schools. The choice, therefore, is obvious.
I do not think I would agree with the Minister that it is just marginally cheaper, from my experience.
Mr. R. Burke
I shall not argue with the Deputy about the percentage. I am not yet in a position to be able to give him the precise figure but I think it will be in the nature of a margin.
44.
andMr. Faulkner asked the Minister for Education if World Bank funds, at the special rate of interest, will be made available to finance the construction of the proposed new schools and specialist block in Thurles, County Tipperary.
Mr. R. Burke
The method of financing Thurles combined secondary schools has not been the subject of discussion with the World Bank. I cannot say, therefore, whether the development would qualify for financing by them.
Would the Minister not agree that it would be well worthwhile having finance from the World Bank to help in the construction of these schools?
Mr. R. Burke
I would.
Would the Minister say that no part of £17 million from the World Bank will be used to finance this school?
Mr. R. Burke
As the Deputies are aware, World Bank loan money is for designated sites. Since Thurles is not one of these sites, I cannot say that the second World Bank loan money could be used for this purpose.
Would the Minister agree that if he had decided to build one school on this site he would be more likely to get World Bank funds for that purpose and thereby help conserve scarce capital resources?
Mr. R. Burke
I prefer not to answer hypothetical questions in this context. The decision with which I was faced, of building a single school, was not capable of being implemented. It was not my fault nor the fault of my predecessor. What I have tried to do here, is the best in the circumstances.
45.
andMr. Faulkner asked the Minister for Education if it is proposed to establish common enrolment in the two new schools proposed for Thurles, County Tipperary.
Mr. R. Burke
This is not the present intention. It is intended however, that there should be very close co-operation between the two new schools. The most suitable methods of achieving such co-operation will be a matter for discussion between the boards of management.
Does the Minister agree that common enrolment is a fundamental in this situation? Does he also agree that if the pupils attending these schools are to have their aptitudes and abilities developed to the full the very necessary close co-operation must come through common enrolment.
Mr. R. Burke
The Deputy, as my predecessor, will realise that only in two instances, Ballinamore and Boyle, have we got common enrolment in operation between separate schools at the moment. I should like to emphasise that the complex in Thurles represents co-operation between two separate schools, with particular methods of co-operation between them. Nothing is specifically envisaged in regard to common enrolment by the combining, on a single site, of the two schools. If the Deputy's point were to be brought to a logical conclusion he would be demanding from me common enrolment in every town. That might be desirable but with the best will in the world one cannot achieve that.
The Minister is going too far with his logical conclusions. The fact of the matter is——
The Deputy must put a question.
Is it not a fact that the Minister is proposing a new project which entails building two new schools in Thurles? He should ensure that the children get the best possible opportunity and that co-operation is as effective as possible. In those circumstances he must agree that the very least he can do is to have common enrolment.
The Deputy must not indulge in an argument. The matter cannot be debated here.
Did I understand the Minister to say that there was common enrolment in Ballinamore and Boyle? If I did, would he not agree that the benefits to these schools were immense? Would this not encourage him to ask the new school to have common enrolment?
Mr. R. Burke
There are benefits to be got from co-operation as was evidenced in Ballinamore and Boyle. This is not a new idea. I am not excluding common enrolment from the school at Thurles but at the moment it is not my intention to do so. The inference from Deputy Faulkner's statement that the education which would be available in Thurles is of a lesser quality than elsewhere, is an inference I would not accept.
I did not say that.
The Deputies will appreciate that we have had a number of questions on educational facilities in Thurles. There are still a number to come and I ask Deputies not to dwell on any given one.
There are fundamental principles involved here. I did not say that I thought the quality of education in these schools would necessarily be less than if they were two separate schools. The Minister knows——
It is not in order for the Deputy to make a statement.
Is the Minister not aware that if the children are to get the full advantage of the education being provided that common enrolment is essential? If a child decides to go to one school and finds later that it is not suitable, what arrangements are there for transfer to the other school?
Mr. R. Burke
This arrangement is at an early stage of negotiation at the moment. The inter-reaction to the boards of management and the arrangements for co-operation will be such that no child will be at any loss, no matter what his aptitudes or inclinations are in the field of education.
We have no guarantee of that.
46.
andMr. Faulkner asked the Minister for Education if educational facilities, recreational facilities and rooms for the purposes of meetings et cetera will be made available to members of the public after normal school hours in the two new schools proposed for Thurles, County Tipperary.
Mr. R. Burke
It is the intention that facilities will be available to the public to the same extent as they would be in a community school.
Are we to take it that the Minister is committed to the advantages of a community school where this is possible of achievement?
Mr. R. Burke
The Deputy is to take it that what I have said I have said in this instance. It is the intention at this point that facilities will be available to the public to the same extent as they would be in a community school. Facilities of the community school are available to the public and I welcome them. I have opened at least two community schools since I took office, one in Gweedore and the other in Dungloe.
Will the Ceann Comhairle agree that my supplementary question has not been answered?
The Chair has no function in that matter.
47.
andMr. Faulkner asked the Minister for Education if parents will have representation on the boards of management of the proposed schools in Thurles, County Tipperary.
48.
andMr. Faulkner asked the Minister for Education if it is proposed to have persons nominated by him on each of the boards of management of the two proposed new schools in Thurles, County Tipperary.
49.
andMr. Faulkner asked the Minister for Education if teachers will have representation on the boards of management of the proposed new schools in Thurles, County Tipperary.
Mr. R. Burke
With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 47, 48, and 49 together.
The proposal is that there should be separate boards of management in each school consisting of four nominees of the conductors of the school and two nominees of the Minister for Education. I am not in a position to be more specific at this stage in relation to the composition of the boards of management.
Arising from Question No. 47, does the Minister envisage the election of parents to the boards of management of the two schools concerned?
Mr. R. Burke
Speaking personally, yes.
In regard to Question No. 48, do I take it the Minister has said that he has not as yet decided whether he will have a representative on the boards of management?
Mr. R. Burke
No. In the original statement I said that there would be two members on each board who would be nominated by the Minister. If one combines my reply to Deputy Faulkner with the latest reply one can deduce that the nominees of the Minister would, in fact, be parents.
What degree of control does the Minister think he will exercise on the boards of management in view of his having representation on both?
Mr. R. Burke
I would not have less control in the running of the school than I have in relation to other types of schools, for example, community schools. The Minister is not directly represented on the board of management of a community school. I propose to nominate two parents. To that extent, I have a greater degree of control——
The Minister stated that he would not have more control in these circumstances than he would in relation to community schools but the fact is that——
The Deputy must ask a question.
The Minister has no representation on——
The Deputy must ask a supplementary question.
In view of the fact that there is a proposal by the Minister to have a regional committee set up how does he reconcile having representatives of himself, or of his Department, on the actual boards controlling the schools?
Mr. R. Burke
I have nominees on these boards, not necessarily representatives of my Department. That is, perhaps, where the Deputy is drawing a wrong conclusion.
Can they be local nominees?
Mr. R. Burke
I have suggested already to the Deputies that there will be parents of children at the schools. Obviously parents are locals, and to that extent they are local nominees.
Does the Minister propose to have teachers on the boards of management of these schools?
Mr. R. Burke
No.
I am rather surprised.
Again the Deputy is embarking on a statement and this is not in order at Question Time. The Deputy must find another opportunity for debating this matter.
I should like to remind the Minister of the pressure exerted on me by the then Opposition when I was Minister for Education to have teachers on the board. Would the Minister explain why the change of attitude in relation to this matter by the parties now in power?
Mr. R. Burke
I do not think I am called upon to answer the last supplementary.
How does the Minister square this procedure with his stated views on teacher representation in his outline regionalisation scheme?
Mr. R. Burke
There is no connection between the two things. Teacher representation on devolved authorities will be on the administration of a county or region, whatever is determined. That is substantially different from having a day to day say in the administration of a school in which a teacher is employed.
The Minister agrees, then, with my attitude in relation to this matter?
Mr. R. Burke
The Deputy is an intelligent man and he can draw his own conclusions.
50.
asked the Minister for Education if he is aware of the concern expressed by the executive committee of the Teachers' Union of Ireland at the lack of consultation by his Department prior to its announcement of the new schools arrangement at Thurles, County Tipperary.
Mr. R. Burke
I am not aware of any reason why the Teachers' Union of Ireland should feel concerned about the proposed arrangement in Thurles for combined secondary schools. The interests of the teachers in both schools will not be in any way adversely affected.
May I add that local meetings regarding the provision of school facilities in Thurles were held on 11th November, 1971, and 28th March, 1972, and that these meetings were attended by representatives of the Teachers' Union of Ireland.
Would the Chair not agree that again my question has not been answered? I should like to ask the Minister if the teachers were consulted specifically on the structures which he announced for the Thurles school? Did the Minister read the irate comments by the local branch of the Teachers' Union of Ireland on the arrangement without consultation in view of the fact that he belongs to an administration which boasts of open Government?
Mr. R. Burke
The Deputy is probably aware that in general the comment from the local people in Thurles was laudatory of my efforts. The one note which I thought was a bit discordant was that of a member of the Teachers' Union of Ireland and I do not need to ask Deputy Wilson whether there are extraneous factors involved. The Teachers' Union of Ireland representative concluded his statement by saying that given the circumstances the Minister did a fairly good job.
Is it not a fact that no educationalist, or group of educationalists, expressed any approval for the Thurles project? Is it not also a fact that the Minister on many occasions expressed criticism of what he termed to be my lack of consultation and, in fact, he has now had none at all?
Mr. R. Burke
I am not aware that I, when in Opposition, at any time criticised Deputy Faulkner when he was Minister for Education.
Since the Minister became Minister for Education he has spoken a lot about the lack of consultation.
Mr. R. Burke
That was not to be taken as a reflection on Deputy Faulkner.
I do not know on whom it reflects.