asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries the number of fishermen who have received FEOGA grants.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Fishery Industry.
36.
No grants have so far been paid by the EEC to fishermen from FEOGA but applications for grants from five fishermen, involving a total of £276,455 have been approved by the EEC Commission.
Can the Parliamentary Secretary give the number of fishermen who received grants?
Five applications have been approved and 19 further applications are being dealt with by the EEC Commission.
Would the Parliamentary Secretary agree that five seems a very small number when one considers that 11 have received grants in County Down and 37 in the entire United Kingdom?
As I indicated in my reply, to date five have been approved and applications in respect of 19 vessels are still under consideration and a decision will not be forthcoming until later in the year. The total amount of grants applied for by the 19 cases in question is £694,000. We have got a decision on five applications and we are awaiting a decision on 19.
Am I to take it that we have got approval for five because only five were before FEOGA?
All 24 were before FEOGA for decision. The latest date for applications was 30th June, 1974.
Would I be right in saying that the reason the number of grants available under the scheme is so small is because the scheme was not properly advertised and that it was only after the closing date that the majority of fishermen——
The Deputy is making a statement.
——were aware such a scheme of assistance was available? Will the Parliamentary Secretary therefore ensure that whenever applications are in order again fishermen will be made sufficiently aware of the existence of these grants? I should also like to know the reason for the long delay in processing these grants.
I do not agree with the Deputy that the scheme was not properly advertised. We had 24 applications before the Commission. I think the position is quite satisfactory. Let us all hope that approval of the remaining 19 will be forthcoming.
Have grants been paid in any case?
No grants have been paid but applications for grants from five fishermen amounting to £276,455 have been approved by the Commission.
But no grants have been paid?
No.
We have been told by the Parliamentary Secretary that 30th June, 1974, was the closing date for applications. Is it not very unsatisfactory that no grants have been paid to date after such a long lapse of time?
It is not as easy as the Deputy thinks to get money from the EEC Commission under this or any other scheme. I am quite satisfied with the position.
It is a good thing the Parliamentary Secretary is because nobody else is.
There are several.
Let us make some progress.
37.
asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries the loan and grant facilities now available to fishermen for the purchase of new boats.
The financial aids available at present under An Bord Iascaigh Mhara's marine credit plan for the acquisition of new fishing boats consist of a free grant of 25 per cent of the cost of the boat and a subsidised rate of interest of 4 per cent on loans of up to 70 per cent of the cost. In addition, an incentive grant of up to 10 per cent of cost is payable where the loan is repaid within the normal 15-year period.
A new fishing vessel over 50 feet in length may qualify also for a grant from EEC funds (FEOGA).
Would the Parliamentary Secretary say if a change in the present rates of interest on loan facilities is contemplated?
Of course all such matters are kept under review constantly. All these rates are likely to be reviewed at any time.
If the spirit moves you, or somebody else.
Would the Parliamentary Secretary agree that fishermen have been informed that loans may not be available to them any longer at 4 per cent?
It was made clear to them that in applications for loans in the future the interest rates could be varied if it was so decided. As the Deputy knows, the subsidy on loans for fishing boats is exceptionally high. The 4 per cent rate was applied at a time when normal interest rates were more than 6 per cent. The fishermen have been getting a 33 per cent rebate on interest. Interest rates have soared by almost 300 per cent.
What terms will be offered to fishermen in the future?
That is a separate question.
The matter has not been considered so far.
But it will be changed?
It is a matter that can be reviewed.
38.
asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries if he is aware that very low prices are now being paid to fishermen for white fish; and if he has any plans to improve the present marketing structures.
I am aware that market prices for certain species of white fish, notably cod and whiting, have not been good for some time past. This situation obtains not only in this country but throughout the EEC and elsewhere.
As regards the second part of the question let me say that it was precisely for the purpose of coping with a difficult market situation such as we now have that I have been urging fishermen to set up producers' organisations. Membership of a strong and active producers' organisation would not only strengthen their market position but by enabling them to operate the EEC withdrawal system for fish would guarantee a reasonable floor price irrespective of the quantities landed or market demand. I am glad to say that there is now every prospect of the first such organisation being established in the near future.
Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that the prices offered in the Dublin market at the moment are worse than they were 30 years ago and, in view of the increased prices fishermen have to meet for diesel, gear and so on, has he any notion of doing anything to alleviate the serious position in which the fishermen find themselves?
It is true that prices for cod and whiting are depressed. This depression is not confined to this country. It is worldwide. Let us hope that, as happened in the case of cattle prices in the latter part of 1974, the position will change for the better. The information at our disposal is that it is likely to change and we can, therefore, expect an improvement.
The Parliamentary Secretary is like Mr. Micawber.
The fishermen are not getting the prices the housewives are paying.
A brief and relevant question, please, Deputy.
Would the Parliamentary Secretary agree that retail prices are just as high as when fish were fetching good prices for the fishermen and the benefit of these is not going back to the fishermen?
Better co-operation by the fishermen in the marketing of their fish would bring about an improvement. Co-operation is very important. Possibly the cream to which the fishermen are entitled is being skimmed off by agents. By co-operation some of the cream should come their way in future. The Department are giving every encouragement to fishermen to form co-operative groups and we are hoping shortly to have a producer organisation which will measure up to EEC standards; 100 fishermen have paid a membership fee of £25 and we are hoping the organisation will be formed shortly.
Does the Parliamentary Secretary do anything besides hope?
I have already done something concrete through the IAOS and the BIM.
What facilities is the Department making available to assist fishermen in the formation of co-operatives?
That is a separate question.
39.
asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries the number of new fishing boats that have been placed on order outside the country in the last two years.
The number of orders for new fishing boats placed outside the country in the two years 1973 and 1974 was 12.
Why is it necessary to place orders for new boats outside the country? Are we not able to produce in our own yards the kind of boat the fishermen want?
We allow the fishermen a choice. They can either have the boat built here or buy it abroad if they think they can do better by going abroad. We are exceptionally liberal in that respect and, as a result, over the period mentioned 12 fishermen opted to buy boats from foreign yards. From 1st April, 1973, to 31st March, 1974, 14 bigger vessels were built here—that is from the 50 to 78 feet in length, 47 smaller ones, 26 to 40 feet in length; there was only one foreign boat, a 69 foot boat. From 1st April to 31st December the position is that of new vessels, 56 to 86 feet in length, nine were built here and of the smaller ones, 26 to 40 feet, 35 were built here and only two abroad. Fortunately the applicants are now opting for Irish built boats and, since that is the trend, I do not think it is necessary to take any positive action and tell the fishermen they must get their boats built here if they want to qualify for grants. I am sure the present trend is due mainly to the fact that it is generally accepted the Irish product is as good as, if not better than, the foreign product.
Are our boatyards working to full capacity?
Yes.
Are they able to meet the demand?
They are able to meet the demand for new boats.
Are they able to meet the demand for repairs?
I assume they are.
Did the Parliamentary Secretary inquire?
That is the information I have to date.
Can the Parliamentary Secretary state if the price of boats has any bearing on the fact that some of our fishermen go outside for boats or is it because of design or for some other reason?
Possibly design and price are factors. Some claim they can get boats built cheaper abroad than they can at home. It is a personal opinion. We will allow the position to continue as it is at the moment until the co-operative scheme is fully in operation.
May I take it the Parliamentary Secretary has stated categorically that our boat building yards are working to full capacity?
That is the information I have.
Did the Parliamentary Secretary check?
We get reports periodically.
Would the Parliamentary Secretary check that Hickey's boat building yard in Galway——
That is a separate question.
40.
asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries if he is aware of the plight of fishermen in the Bantry Bay area, County Cork, who have not earned any money since 22nd October, 1974, from shellfish fishing; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
I am well aware of the position of local fishermen following the recent oil spillages in Bantry Bay. As financial negotiations involving the fishermen are in progress it would not be appropriate for me to make a statement at this stage.
Would the Parliamentary Secretary agree that he and his Department have completely neglected the welfare of the fishermen in not making a declaration of some description as to whether the fishermen can go in and fish and as to whether the shellfish taken out of the bay are not polluted in any way? Is he also aware that the fishermen are losing very valuable markets abroad because the Department have not given any clear statement on the matter?
Both the Department and I are giving all the help possible to the fishermen and all the advice at our disposal. Bulletins have been issued on at least three occasions. I am satisfied the negotiations are proceeding satisfactorily and the board's reports indicate that that is the position. It is not for the Department to intervene as to the amount of compensation.
That has nothing to do with the Department. What is relevant is——
We cannot have an argument at Question Time.
The Parliamentary Secretary has had several deputations, to which he has given very little satisfaction, and he must be aware that the fishermen in Bantry Bay have not earned a brown penny since 22nd October because the report his officials prepared has not gone down to Bantry and has not been published.
The Deputy is making a statement. Question No. 41.
The evasiveness hinging on that report has had the effect of cancelling orders coming to the fishermen.
The Deputy is making a statement. Question No. 41.
The Deputy's statements are mainly incorrect and they have no bearing on the matter. We gave all the assistance possible and it is regrettable that owing to the unfortunate oil spillage last October fishing in the area has been affected.
The Parliamentary Secretary closed down the bay.
The oil spillage did that.
We are having a discussion now at Question Time.
Deputy Crowley knows the position quite well.
This is a very important question.
It is mainly a discussion which is going on at the moment between the Deputy and the Parliamentary Secretary.
Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that compensation cannot be fixed until the report is in his Department?
Will the Parliamentary Secretary answer Question No. 41?
The fishermen do not know what they will be able to get next year.
(Interruptions.)
Is the Parliamentary Secretary telling the fishermen they will be able to fish in Bantry Bay next season?
Will the Parliamentary Secretary answer Question No. 41?
(Interruptions.)
Will the Parliamentary Secretary answer the question I asked him?
I have given the information the Deputy asked for.
The Parliamentary Secretary has not given any information.
Deputy Crowley will have to resume his seat and allow questions to continue.
The fishermen have suffered a loss because of the waffling of the Parliamentary Secretary.
The waffling is on the part of the Deputy.
Will the Parliamentary Secretary answer my query?
(Interruptions.)
Will the Parliamentary Secretary answer yes or no?
Will the Deputy allow Question Time to proceed? Question No. 41.
I have given all the information at my disposal.
The Parliamentary Secretary does not give a damn about the fishermen in Bantry Bay and they will tell him that very soon.
The Deputy is afraid of what they will tell him.
Question No. 41.
I have a letter from the fishermen and if the Parliamentary Secretary likes I will put it on the record.
The Deputy is quite welcome to a letter from the fishermen.
The Chair at this stage must be allowed to have some control over what happens at Question Time.
I agree, but you should get the Parliamentary Secretary to answer my question.
Discussion at Question Time is out of order. Questions and supplementary questions may be asked further to elicit information. That is what Question Time is all about. Question No. 41.
On a point of order——
There is no point of order at Question Time.
Has the Leas-Cheann Comhairle no obligation to protect the rights of every Deputy in the House?
Yes, which the Leas-Ceann Comhairle has been trying to do.
Yes, and the Parliamentary Secretary is consistently refusing to answer questions.
The Deputy was indulging in discussion. The Parliamentary Secretary has been called on a number of occasions to answer the next question. Question No. 41.
If you were protecting my rights——
The Deputy must resume his seat.
——you would insist that the Parliamentary Secretary would answer the questions which he has been asked and which he has refused to do. This matter is affecting the livelihood of those fishermen.
It has not happened.
(Interruptions.)
An Leas-Ceann Comhairle
Will the Parliamentary Secretary answer Question No. 41?
Will the Parliamentary Secretary answer my question?
The Deputy is behaving in a disorderly fashion at the moment, and he knows that.
I do not intend to do that but I have to do something to get the Parliamentary Secretary to answer this vital question.
Acting in a disorderly fashion will certainly not help the situation.
I need your protection.
The Chair has been affording what protection there is and the Chair has to determine the number of supplementary questions to be allowed. The Deputy knows just as well as the Chair knows that discussion is out of order at Question Time.
This matter is not out of order. The question I am asking is will the fishermen in Bantry Bay be able to fish next season?
Discussion and argument are out of order at Question Time.
The Parliamentary Secretary is refusing to answer my question. The question of compensation depends on his answer.
If the Deputy puts down a question on this matter he will be given an answer.
The Deputy has been making a case. Question No. 41.