asked the Minister for Education the academic standing of the leaving certificate (say five subjects to "C Grade") in (a) ordinary papers and (b) higher papers compared with GCE in Northern Ireland and England; the steps, if any, being taken to have the leaving certificate freely recognised in Northern Ireland and England as a comparable academic qualification to the GCE; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Leaving Certificate Comparability.
11.
It is difficult to compare these two sets of examinations because of the difference in the programmes and structures on which they are respectively based. It is our view, however, that a grade in a subject at ordinary level in the leaving certificate examination is higher than the corresponding grade in that subject at the GCE ordinary level examination but lower than the corresponding grade in the GCE "A" level examination and that a grade in a subject at higher level in the leaving certificate examination approximates to a corresponding grade in the GCE "A" level examination. The acceptance, in Northern Ireland and England, of leaving certificate examination results depends on the standards required by many different institutions. Every effort is made, however, on a continuing basis and in the widest possible context, to maintain and extend the recognition accorded to our examinations by competent authorities outside the State.
Is the Minister aware that it has been reported in a newspaper that the leaving certificate results have not been acceptable for entry into the third level institutions in England? What personnel in his Department are occupied in keeping in continuous contact with the Northern Ireland and English authorities to ensure that our leaving certificate at ordinary and higher levels continues to correspond with the GCE O level and A level? Does he agree it is important that comparability continues to be maintained?
I certainly agree with the Deputy that the maintenance of comparability is very important. The inspectorate in my Department look after that. I have a special knowledge of this myself. I am not aware either from correspondence or any other communication that there is a problem. The Deputy mentioned a newspaper report. I have no solid evidence about that, but I have very solid and very surprising evidence about comparability from my private knowledge.
Having acknowledged the importance of continuing comparability, can the Minister give an assurance to the House that there is continuous contact with the British and Northern Ireland education authorities and personnel in his Department?
I can assure the Deputy and the House that that is so, not merely with the British and Six County authorities, but also with other countries in the EEC. Some fourth year students in an Irish secondary school took the Oxford and Cambridge advance levels some years ago and the results were very encouraging and very interesting.
Is the Minister aware that children of parents living in the Republic, particularly in Border counties, who go to secondary schools in Northern Ireland for traditional or other reasons are deprived of the benefits of higher education? They are unable to sit the leaving certificate examinations because the examinations in their own schools take place at the same time?
That is a separate question.
It is not a separate question.
The Deputy might put down a question.
I am asking the question——
Question No. 11 relates to comparability academically between two certificates.
I beg to differ from you. The question relates to the leaving certificate being freely recognised in Northern Ireland and England as a comparable academic qualification to the GCE. I am dealing with that.
The Deputy is asking about pupils going to secondary schools in Northern Ireland. That is a separate question.
I am asking about the leaving certificate examination. I am saying to the Minister that children of parents living in the Republic go to secondary schools in Northern Ireland. Because of that they are deprived of higher educational benefits. They need four honours in their leaving certificate to qualify for grants for university purposes here. That is blatant discrimination. It is happening in the Minister's own constituency of Cavan-Monaghan. What does the Minister propose to do about it?
I do not know exactly what relevance the Deputy's supplementary has to the question I have been dealing with?
The Chair does not see any relevance.
The question of the allocation of grants has been decided on the basis of the leaving certificate.
The Minister is discriminating against people in his own constituency and in my constituency.
The Deputy's concern for the people in my constituency is touching but, I am afraid, slightly artificial.
Question No. 12.
It is blatant, outrageous discrimination against ordinary people who are being deprived of their educational rights. The Minister has no reply to that. He cannot deny it.
The Deputy is doing the gadfly.
The Minister cannot defend it because he knows I am telling the truth.
That is not happening.
The Minister knows I am telling the truth. He cannot defend it.
I was asked a question about the comparability of our leaving certificate examination. If the Deputy puts down a question about anything that is worrying him I will be only too pleased to answer it.
The Minister thinks that will get him off the hook. This is blatant discrimination against young people in Border areas.
To follow the fishing metaphor, if the Deputy wants to put me on the hook again I will wriggle off it.