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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 24 Jun 1980

Vol. 322 No. 9

Fishery Harbour Centres Bill, 1980: Second Stage (Resumed) and Final Stages.

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I do not propose to delay the House today since I made most of the points I wished to make during my intervention on Thursday last. There is not any objection to the Bill, a relatively small Bill concerning merely a change of venue from Galway to Rossaveal, but I would like some information regarding the expenditure of moneys voted for harbour development works. According to the Estimates the figure in this respect for this year is £3 million while for last year it was £1.75 million in respect of fishery centres and £20,033 in respect of grants for harbours. Was the £1.75 million expended last year and is there a likelihood that the £3 million will be expended this year? The reason for asking this question is that during the time in which I was associated with the Department I learned that down through the years of successive Fianna Fáil Governments sizeable percentages of the moneys voted were not expended and consequently found their way back to Exchequer funds. This resulted in a situation in which Fianna Fáil Deputies could go around the country quoting the amounts which were being spent on harbour development by giving the figures as indicated in the Book of Estimates. The figures in the Book of Estimates should be based on fact and not on fiction. The present Minister has not been in office long enough to have changed the practice I have described, but I hope he will be in a position to tell us what percentage of the moneys voted for harbour works were expended last year and what the percentage in this respect is likely to be this year. Perhaps, too, he may be able to tell us the relative figure for 1977-78.

Some years ago, when Fianna Fáil were trying to return to office, fisheries became an emotive subject. We all know that without proper harbour facilities it is very difficult for fishermen to land catches and so on. However, we do not hear anything now either from the Taoiseach or from those five Ministers who were so vocal between 1973 and 1977 regarding the 50-mile exclusive limit, who gave the impression that in the event of Fianna Fáil's return to power at the general election there would be a 50-mile exclusive limit and that only Irish fishermen would be allowed fish within such a limit. But the silence now is all the more evidence of the gimmickry in which the Government party engaged in that period. Now after three years of Fianna Fáil Government we find that small harbours, slips and piers which are much in need of development are being neglected. This is certainly the situation in my constituency and all the evidence seems to indicate that it is typical of the situation in the country generally. In these circumstances the Minister should ensure that moneys voted for harbour works should be expended in full. I doubt if there is such under expenditure in other spheres. Perhaps there is but Deputies simply do not notice. It is a shame that as much as 66 per cent, or £2 out of every £3 voted for harbour development, goes back to the Exchequer. There is the problem, too, of trying to sell fish.

So far as the Chair is aware the Bill deals only with fishery harbour centres.

I accept the Chair's ruling but on the last occasion the debate developed into a general debate on fishing.

If that happened, it should not have happened.

I agree but we do not have the opportunity now of debating an Estimate for this Department or for any Department.

We debated the Estimate for fisheries in full last week.

We only had about an hour for that debate on Friday last and on the same day several other Estimates were debated also in a relatively short time.

We are dealing only with harbours.

I trust that the Minister will reply to the questions I have raised regarding the expenditure of the moneys voted. I might refer in passing to the fact that both the last Minister and the present one are from inland areas, Roscommon and Kildare respectively. I am not reflecting on either of those people when I say that a Deputy from a maritime constituency would be more conversant with this very important industry. Such a Deputy would have greater knowledge of the problems and the difficulties associated with the industry.

The Deputy should get back to the question of harbours. The question of the person in charge of the Department does not arise.

I would impress on the Minister the desirability of the smaller centres. We have 101 of them in south-west Cork where possibly we have the longest mileage of coast in the country. Kerry would have about the same mileage. My point is that we must try to get markets for our fish. In Castletownbere the fish is left on the pier unsold. There is an obligation on the Minister and the Government to try to get markets for that fish.

Another matter I should like the Minister to look into is the way skippers deal with their crews from the point of view of availability of documents for scrutiny. I do not know if the Minister, from an inland constituency, would be conversant with that problem. Documentation should be available for each member of a crew, as well as for the skipper, containing figures about catches and the way the money for the sale of fish has been divided. I hope the Minister will be able to give us a breakdown of these figures.

There are 15 minutes left.

I say it is 20 minutes—we had a division.

The debate will have to be concluded by 4.50.

I do not propose to delay the House. I merely wish to repeat what Deputy Murphy has been saying. I would not expect a Minister from an inland constituency, far removed from the seaboard, to have a feel for the fishing industry, to have a sensitivity for the affairs of the people who sail the fishing boats. I come from a maritime county and I claim to have some knowledge of the problems of fishermen because I have opportunities to talk to them frequently. Last week I raised the question of the Minister's visit to County Donegal and I said that the harbour at Greencastle serves the biggest fishing community in Donegal outside Killybegs. Donegal, of course, is a fisherman's county, and has been right back to the Famine, during which time generation has followed generation in the fishing tradition. Many people who fish out of Donegal have no other way to earn a livelihood. Fishing is part of their make-up.

It is sad that Donegal County Council and the Department of Fisheries have failed or neglected or declined to apply to the EEC Regional Fund for money that would enable major harbour development to be commenced at Greencastle. Such development is necessary if fishermen in that county are to be enabled to earn a livelihood. Apart from Killybegs and Dunmore East, there are few other fishing ports as important as Greencastle. It has the added dimension of being involved cross-Border, and for that reason alone it deserves particular attention.

Before the Minister went on his trip to County Donegal he should have given advance notice of his advent to the fishermen. What he did was to talk to a few people in a Malin hotel and sang a song known as "The Four Green Fields" to show how Irish and anti-Partitionist he is. Instead, he should have met the fishermen in an orderly way and discussed their problems with them. He lives in a constituency far removed from the sea, confined to Kildare, protected from the affairs and the problems of fishermen. He did not tune in to that industry until given responsibility for this Department. Outside agriculture, fishing is our second major industry. The Minister shakes his head.

Tourism comes after agriculture.

The Minister has said tourism is more important than fisheries. So the Minister is more concerned about tourism, about tourists who come in here, than the men who have to stay here and fish dangerous waters to earn a living. That is an indication of the Minister's and the Government's concern about this industry. He shows this abstraction with tourism, this notion that tourism is the second biggest industry. I challenge that because I regard tourism as being after fishing. Those engaged in the Foyle Fisheries, about which I spoke at length on Thursday, are unable to berth their boats in Greencastle. There has been cross-Border trade——

On a point of information, can the Chair indicate if I will have an opportunity to speak? I am in a position to reply fully to all the matters raised, even the consequential matters now being raised.

The Chair will have to put all the questions associated with the Bill at ten minutes to five o'clock. I shall be putting the questions at 4.45 p.m. Unless the Deputy who is in possession agrees that the Minister be given an opportunity to reply——

I will be a little more courteous than the Minister was to me last week. It would not be my intention to silence him. Of course, personal abuse is not any substitute for knowledge——

There is not anybody better than Deputy Harte at personal abuse. He graduated in it.

I do not know what the Minister is grunting about. I did not hear what he said.

No one would know more about personal abuse than the Deputy.

No personalities, please.

We get a very good example of it from this side of the House because we are looking across there and we are not blind.

The Deputy will continue to look from that side.

We are dealing with this Bill and nothing else.

The harbours I am dealing with are in my constituency and in the area where the Minister went a fortnight ago to attend a Fianna Fáil dinner dance, to eat T-bone steaks and to ignore the fishermen of Portaline, Culdaff, Lenar and Greencastle. Would it not have been more in keeping with the office the Minister holds if he arranged to meet the fishermen or their representative bodies and discuss with them in an adult way the problems they have instead of politely telling them as an afterthought, having eaten their T-bone steak and prawn cocktail and having drunk wines of the best and having entertained the audience to a few songs——

Deputy Harte will deal with fishing harbours, please.

I am entitled to make my case.

Forget about the steaks and all the other things that have nothing to do with the Bill.

They have a lot to do with the Bill.

Damn all as far as I am concerned.

I have been told in Donegal that the Minister is more concerned about T-bone steaks than he is about salmon fishermen. I can dispute that. The Minister, as an afterthought, went to Lenar to talk to a few fishermen. I was there after the Minister and there was nobody who knew he had been there except a few Fianna Fáil supporters to whom Deputy Conaghan said that the Minister for Fisheries was coming and a few of them had better turn up to shake hands with him.

We had all that the other night.

The Minister had no need to go to Lenar to see what the fishermen there needed. It is on record and, if you had taken the files with you, you could have seen what they were looking for. Their demands are not that great. All they want is a sea protection wall to protect the small crafts they use. It was not necessary for you to go there and see for yourself——

Through the Chair, please.

As far as Culdaff is concerned, it is a very small hamlet but an important fishing centre for those who use it. Portaline is renowned throughout the North for the bravery of the fishermen who tackle the dangerous currents that are off the coast. The Minister did not show enough respect to notify them in advance that he was going there. When I tried to raise this the only thing I was told was that I should not come into the House any more wearing a green sportscoat or that I should not wear a blue shirt. Such sectarian remarks I have never heard. If that is the only interest the Minister for Fisheries has, to personally abuse me——

There are eight minutes left and we are dealing with harbours. We had all this the other night. The Deputy is dealing with matters that have nothing to all to do with the Bill.

(Interruptions.)

I am entitled to speak for those eight minutes but I will conclude in a few moments and give the Minister an opportunity to tell me why he did not notify the fishermen at Portcall, Greencastle, Culdaff or those at Portaline. It was very important that he should meet Deputy Conaghan and Senators McGowan and McGlinchey and that he should attend a Fianna Fáil dinner dance——

If the Deputy is not going to deal with the Bill he should resume his seat.

I am making my case.

You are not dealing with the Bill.

The Deputy can hardly blame me for not wanting to meet him.

The Deputy is not dealing with the Bill but with something we had the other night.

I am making the point that the Minister for Fisheries was not dealing with the Bill before the House a fortnight ago when he was in Donegal.

We are dealing with fishery harbour centres and the Deputy should stay on those.

I am giving an example to the House of the interest the Minister has, or lack of interest he has in the fishermen I have the honour to represent. When I raise the question in their interests I am personally abused, not for what I said to the Minister, but for the manner of my dress — I should not wear a green coat or a blue shirt. I have never heard such bigoted sectarian, narrow——

Deputy Harte will resume his seat if he is going to continue in that way. Other people want to make a serious contribution to the Bill and Deputy Harte does not wish to do so.

When the Minister goes back to Donegal would he ask to meet the fishermen, particularly those of Greencastle whose problem is a major one? There are two parallel lines on the map, one going seawards from the Donegal coast at Inishowen Head and the other going seaward from the Derry coast. The one off the Donegal coast separates the Foyle fishery commission from the Letterkenny fishery board. The one off the Derry coast separates the Foyle fishery from the northern fishery board. These are contentious, age-old issues which have never been properly resolved. The Minister should at least listen to my plea. He will not be there for very long but while he is would he listen to the plea I am making — listen to the fishermen of Greencastle, to the men who put their lives in danger, to the men who would explain the difficulty they have that while fishing drift net off the Donegal coast in the corridor that goes between those two lines the tide sweeps them over the lines and they find themselves fishing waters they do not have licences for? That is a major problem and one that demands the Minister's attention more than eating bloody T-bone steaks at a dance in Malin. The next time I raise this, answer the charges I am making and do not be personal about it because it is no substitute for intelligence.

There are only three minutes left.

It is absurd that we should get to a situation where there is only three minutes left on such an important issue. I am interested in Rossaveal Harbour and have been for many years. What proposals has the Minister for its development? I am glad that he is moving from Galway to Rossaveal as the major fishing harbour. It is infinitely better than it was and greatly improved as a result of work done over the last eight or ten years. The outside harbour has been greatly extended but nearly two-thirds of it is still full of rocks. If one is to take the transport facilities left behind in Galway, the roads, railways, marketing facilities, care of boats and all the facilities needed to run a modern fishing port, what is the Minister going to do about clearing out the rest of the harbour which, as he may or may not know, has marks on it keeping trawlers into a very narrow part of the harbour, about one-third of it? If it is to be fully developed, surely the rest of the harbour will have to be deepened and the rocks taken out.

Small fishermen use the inner harbour and that is in complete decay. There is a notice at the harbour stating that it is dangerous for pedestrians and fishermen. They cannot use it. They have no access to the big harbour and are denied the facilities in the inner harbour. What are the Minister's proposals for a harbour board and what kind of harbour board does he propose to establish? Will it be one which is drawn from the county council with the various interests involved or will it be an ad hoc board established by the Minister arising from legislation? What money, if any, is available and during what period of time will that money be spent? What are the Minister's proposals for making a highly developed mechanised and properly administered harbour for the western seaboard out of Rossaveel harbour as an alternative to Galway? It is a welcome development as employment is badly needed in that part of Connemara. More employment could be created as a result of the development of the harbour and, in addition, downstream industries could be established. Proper fish processing industries, bottling and tinning rather than putting the fish into a barrel and sending it to France as is done predominantly at present, should be established.

I am anxious to give the Minister some time to reply and I would be obliged if the Deputy would conclude.

Is there any money available for the development of this harbour? What are the Minister's proposals for this development? A proposal was made by the Soviet Union to extend this harbour — I only know the vaguest terms about it — and I should like to know if the Minister heard of any such proposal. It was put through Gaeltarra Éireann. What is the position about that development?

The debate has been very wide-ranging and I shall try to answer some of the questions put to me. I will not be able to answer all the questions fully in the time allotted but if Deputy Browne wishes to come to my office I shall show him the plans for Rossaveal Harbour. I can assure him that the plans are for a proper harbour. It will be developed and money has been allocated. I am aware that the infrastructure and land will need to be improved to make it a feasible proposition.

How much will be spent this year?

Between £4 million and £5 million will be spent on the development. That is based on the cost of the work at present being carried out at Howth. The work on the local roads will be the responsibility of the local authority, as will the water and sewerage grants and a harbour advisory committee has been set up. That committee is representative of all interests and consists of representatives of the Department of Fisheries and Forestry, two officials from the Office of Public Works, one from the Department of Finance, Padraig O Durcáin ó Roinn na Gaeltachta, Representatives from Galway County Council, Bord Iascaigh Mhara, the Galway and Aran Fishermen's Co-op, Galway and Aran Fishermen's Association, duine amháin as Údarás na Gaeltachta agus fear ionaid más rud é nach féidir leis an lad sin teacht agus an Coiste Pobail Rossaveal freisin, P. Mac Donncha (Terry), agus fear ionaid ann freisin.

We met those people last week at their first inaugural meeting in Dublin — they propose to hold future meetings in Rossaveal. If any Member feels that any area or group have been left out I am sure we can arrange to have a representative co-opted on to the Rossaveal Harbour Development Advisory Committee. Deputy White raised a question about oil rigs but I do not think we should have representatives of oil rigs in a fishery harbour. Galway, possibly, would be a more realistic place to deal with the question of oil rigs and the servicing of them. We have sufficient money to deal with the development project. It was mentioned that we should deal with other matters and that we were not spending enough money on our harbours, but if one carried out a cost-benefit analysis one would realise that the expenditure is quite substantial in view of the landings. We hope to improve that.

How much is it intended to spend at Rossaveal this year? When is it intended to finish the development work?

This will depend on the amount of money needed. I understand that about £750,000 will be spent this year — that is only an educated guess.

When is it hoped to complete the work?

We need it to land the fish and get it away and the money will be available as required for the planned development of Rossaveal this year. Five other ports are listed also, and they are equally important but that is not the end of the road as far as small ports are concerned. Other work will go ahead in those ports. Dingle is being surveyed. I visited Clare Island recently and Inisturk and I realise the work that is needed in those places. Last week I was in Killybegs and I am aware that dredging is required there for bigger boats. Work is going ahead in other areas as well as in the five designated ports.

I should like to tell Deputy White that the hours of auction will have to be settled in the light of the needs of the fishermen but we must bear in mind the problems that occurred in places like Cornwall. There was talk there of rigged prices and wrong weights. In connection with the Bulgarian vessels I am aware that the fishermen welcomed them, as I did, because of the better prices. Anybody who sees boxes of herrings increased from £9 per box to £22 per box would be glad of such progress but we must think of the overall national interest and the question of safeguarding employment. We must also consider improving onshore facilities for processing. There has been a lot of State aid investment in that area. I should like to tell Deputy Murphy that at no stage was 66 per cent of the money allocated to the Fisheries Vote unexpended. A total of £3 million has been allocated for 1980 and it is expected that all of that will be spent. Last year £1,750,000 was allocated and £1,645,000 was spent. In 1975 a total of £682,000 was allocated and spent. In general it can be said that most years the money allocated is spent. One exception was in 1978 when £1,304,000 was allocated and only £696,000 was spent. Members anxious to get clarification on any items should contact me and I will facilitate them.

In accordance with the order made earlier today, I now put the question.

Question, "That the Bill is hereby read a Second Time, that the Committee Stage is hereby agreed to, that the Bill is reported to the House and that the Fourth Stage is hereby completed and the Bill is hereby passed", put and agreed to.
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