asked the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs if he will make a statement on the location, dimensions, furnishing and equipment of the office premises used by An Bord Telecom since their establishment or at present reserved for their future use; the appropriateness of this accommodation in relation to the present size of their staff; and the total cost to date to the State of this accommodation.
Ceisteanna—Questions . Oral Answers . - An Bord Telecom Premises .
9.
: The accommodation concerned will, it is expected, be fully occupied within the next few weeks.
The position is that 25,000 square feet of office accommodation in Merrion House, Merrion Road, were leased for An Bord Telecom. Following consideration by them of other premises on offer at the time, the board concluded that this was the accommodation best suited to meet the particular purposes they had in mind. Standard type carpeting and furniture were supplied for the premises by the Office of Public Works.
The board envisaged at the time that they might be in a position to take over control of operation of the telecommunications services reasonably quickly and that they would use this as a headquarters for their top management staff. This expectation has not been realised and when it became clear early in 1981 that the space available was in excess of the board's immediate requirements 10,000 square feet were sub-leased. This continued until September 1982. This area will be occupied on a continuous basis from next month for departmental training purposes.
While the staff of An Bord Telecom and of Irish Telecommunications Investments Limited, which total ten, are the only permanent occupants of the remaining 15,000 square feet, the rest of that accommodation is used regularly for meetings of the two boards, for conferences and training seminars, for meeting customer groups and by staff of my Department working for the board.
The net total cost of the accommodation up to the end of 1982 was £963,953. This included rent, rates, heating, lighting, and also fitting-out costs which amounted to £330,000.
: I have a few questions for the Minister arising out of this. Recognising that the arrangements made here were not made by him, is it not correct that this house which was formerly called Ravensdale, or something of that kind, on the site of the old IMCO works has been in State hands in one shape or form since February 1982, if not longer? Is that correct? In other words, for well over a year?
: That is correct.
: And that the number of employees of An Bord Telecom for whose purposes this commitment was originally engaged in is nine?
: The number is ten.
: With expenditure of £963,953 we are at spitting distance from around £1 million. That is £100,000 to house each one of these ten An Bord Telecom officials. Can the Minister tell me to whom the part of the building taken for An Bord Telecom was sub-leased?
: I do not think I have that information with me.
: Was it sub-leased to the Minister's own Department?
: No, it was not sub-leased to my own Department. I have not got the name of the people to whom it was sub-leased, but I will undertake to communicate that information to the Deputy.
: I do not mean to harry the Minister. I know it is not really his baby. Would it be wrong of me if I were to guess that the sub-lease — I have no knowledge of this and I am asking the Minister in complete innocence — was engaged in merely in order to put some kind of face on the fact that ten persons were occupying this palazzo on the Merrion Road? In other words, a convenient State customer was found to take a certain portion of the premises from them for purposes for which they have plenty of room elsewhere.
: We cannot have an argument.
: It is very hard to defend the situation which exists.
: Hear, hear.
: I do not seek to defend it. The accommodation in question was leased on what were considered very good grounds at the time. The property concerned was considered to be the best available for the purposes for which it was wanted. The people in question could not anticipate the regularity of changes of Government which delayed the enactment of the legislation. That was one of the principal contributors to the very high cost of the building compared with the number of people occupying it. This indicates the need to go ahead with the legislation and get the semi-State bodies set up.
: Would it not also indicate the need to make sure that a majestic mistake of this kind is never again made? Would the Minister consider that in future when a State body requires to be set up he and his colleagues——
: That is a separate question. This deals with a specific instance.
: Arising from the scandal which has been unearthed and which I found out about only because a journalist wrote about it in the papers——
: The Deputy can ask questions about this incident only. He cannot raise future policy.
: Has the Minister pursued, personally or through his Department, all the matters — including matters with a dimension not entirely of bungling or bureaucratic messing — and issues which were raised by the journalist in the article to which I referred and of which I sent the Minister a copy with my letter and, if so, has he come to any useful conclusion about these matters?
: The Deputy should be aware that I was pursuing these matters independently because they were raised by the Comptroller and Auditor General, as was highlighted in the article. I agree that this should not be allowed to happen again. I will refer the Deputy's comments to the Minister for Finance who is ultimately responsible for leasing Government property.
: Will the Minister confirm that the boards would be under way and fully staffed now had the then Minister for Finance, Deputy Bruton, not frustrated the then Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, Deputy Cooney, to the extent that the Taoiseach had to be brought in on it, and no progress whatsoever was made and this has caused the long delay?
: We cannot have a debate on this.
: I had got to the Second Stage of the Bill only when there was another general election, as the Minister rightly said, and this caused most of the frustration.
: We cannot have a debate for half an hour on this question.
: Can the Minister indicate whether this arrangement was entered into by An Bord Telecom independently on their own initiative, or whether any prior consultations took place through his predecessor with his Department to ascertain the position?
: Not his immediate predecessor.
: We can have one Minister only answering questions.
: There were discussions and there were disagreements. Ultimately the disagreements were overcome and agreement was reached to hire these premises. I have to emphasise that this was in the expectation that progress was imminent on the P and T Services Bill which did not happen because of the successive changes of Government.
: The Minister is right.
: I should like to take this opportunity to refute the inferences in what Deputy Wilson said.
: They are facts, absolute facts.
: Ceist 10.
: Poor Cooney was running around the place from the Minister for Finance to the Taoiseach.
: He should be referred to as the former Minister or Deputy Cooney.