Local Elections (Specification of Local Election Year) Order, 1984: Motion (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That Dáil Éireann confirms the following Order:

Local Elections (Specification of Local Election Year) Order, 1984,

a copy of which Order was laid before Dáil Éireann on the 13th day of January, 1984.

—(Minister for the Environment.)

Mr. Morley

In times of recession when young people are so frustrated, elections of all kinds serve as a safety valve to allow people to have their say and to pass judgment on those who, rightly or wrongly, they hold responsible for the situation. If local elections were held this year it would give young people, many of whom would be voting for the first time an opportunity of participating in the democratic process and playing a part in electing representatives, even if it is only at local level, whom they wish to represent them in local government. They could give vent to their undeniable feelings of discontent at being unable to secure employment now or in the near future.

Deputy Shatter said that European elections are being held but they are no substitute for local elections. People do not blame the EEC for potholes on the roads or for heavy water and other charges which have been introduced in a very undemocratic way. Young people would be particularly interested in participating in local elections which is evidenced by the fact that over recent years there has been a growing interest among young people in politics and political parties. That can be seen from their activities which are reported in the media and I know that in my own constituency increasing numbers of people are taking more and more interest in the activities of my own party. They are coming to meetings and involving themselves in party activities. They ask questions and make intelligent comments and make a great contribution towards the working and running of our party organisation at constituency level. There are many Members in this House whose first introduction to political life as public representatives took place at the last local elections in 1979. I am sure that many people with all their frustrations in the present economic climate and unable to find employment, would like to be given the opportunity to follow in the footsteps of their colleagues into politics as Members of the Oireachtas or as members of their local authority.

The excuse given for the postponement of the local elections is the need to reform local government. I question the possibility of having these reforms carried out in one or even two years. The reforms needed are wide-ranging and even radical in many respects. I also question the sincerity of the Government in putting forward this excuse. The Minister who put forward this excuse was the then Minister for the Environment, Deputy Spring. I do not mean any disrespect to him when I say that, if he was committed to local government reform, I am puzzled as to why he left that Department shortly after making the announcement about the postponement of the elections.

Mr. Molloy

Hear, hear.

Mr. Morley

He created a credibility gap. Perhaps the Minister will give us some information on the progress which has been made in the programme of reform to date. Nobody questions the desirability of local government reform. The most pressing needs for reform are generally recognised and agreed. Broadly they are in the areas of financial structures, giving more controls to the local authorities over their own affairs, and boundary changes. There is a need for boundary changes. Dublin was mentioned in this context yesterday and I am sure there is a need to take a serious look at the boundaries in a city the size of Dublin.

The problem also exists in the provinces, perhaps on a smaller scale. I would not like the Government to consider the problem in Dublin and the bigger cities and towns and forget about smaller places where a similar problem exists to the detriment of the local community. I have in mind an example of such community in my own constituency, that is, the town of Kiltimagh. I understand representations have been made to the Department of the Environment with regard to the boundaries in that area to the effect that the boundary areas should be changed to give a wider hinterland to this small town with a population of approximately 1,000 to 1,200 people.

An Ceann Comhairle

I pointed out to Deputies who were speaking yesterday — and I want to be consistent — that a detailed discussion on reform proposals would not be in order.

Mr. Morley

I bow to your ruling. When reforms are being drafted I hope the Minister will consider this problem in other parts of the country. The electoral boundary of this town comes right up to the periphery of the town. A hinterland is very important to any town. They interact culturally, socially and commercially. In this little town they cannot elect a local candidate because it is in the north west corner of its own local electoral area.

The real reason for the postponement of the elections is that the Government fear to face the electorate because of our economic state. They are reluctant to lose the majority they have in most of the local authorities. The Government have good reason to fear the local elections because of their attitude to members of local authorities and the way they treated them this year especially in the area of finance. This year they failed to provide adequate or even reasonable finance for the local authorities. To give the local authorities an increase of only .8 per cent in the grants available to them in lieu of rates on domestic dwellings and agricultural land was very shabby if not irresponsible, especially when a 10 per cent increase was allowed to each Government Department. This had very serious repercussions in many counties. In my own county our manager was left with a shortfall of over £1 million. He was free to make up that shortfall by imposing additional charges.

An Ceann Comhairle

That would be a matter for the Estimates.

Mr. Morley

I am making the point that the Government have a genuine reason to be hesitant about approaching the electorate at this time. The reason they postponed the elections was not the reason given, that is, concern about local government reform. In my county the manager was at liberty to increase charges. We had to increase the rates by 10 per cent which imposed a very severe burden on small traders who are practically the only people left who have to pay rates. An increase of 10 per cent could prove to be the straw which broke the camel's back. We had to impose new charges.

Unfortunately we could not meet the statutory demands of the health board and the Office of Public Works. We regret that very much. This is another area which should be taken into account by the Minister when reforms are being discussed. Requests have been made by many local authorities to have those statutory charges transferred to the appropriate Government Department: the Department of Social Welfare, the Department of Finance, or the Department of the Environment.

I hope the Minister will see to it that this is done in the context of the reforms. There is no necessity to wait to do it until the full package of reforms is ready. It could be done at the stroke of a pen with a bit of goodwill. I have no doubt that the goodwill is there. I hope that before the local authorities are considering next year's Estimates something will be done to take the burden of statutory charges off their backs.

There are other reasons, particularly in the west, why the Government should be reluctant to face the electorate in local elections. There was a shortfall in regard to other grants such as those for road works, local improvement schemes and arterial drainage. I cannot understand why in regard to local improvement and arterial drainage schemes, the Government reduced the grants.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will have an opportunity of discussing that on the budget debate which is before the House and on the Estimate for the Department.

Mr. Morley

I mentioned those schemes in support of my argument why the Government are reluctant to face the electorate in the local elections. I understand that a 50 per cent grant is due from the EEC for those schemes. It would have been wiser for the Government to put up their 50 per cent to keep people at work rather than throw them on to the dole queues. I understand that a grant of £500,000 from the EEC for arterial drainage was not taken up by the Government. That had a serious affect on employment in my part of the country apart from the good work that could be done in regard to agriculture if the scheme went ahead.

The failure of the Government to fund the completion of the Connacht Regional Airport has disgusted people in that constituency.

An Ceann Comhairle

I do not know how the Deputy can fit that into local government in any shape or form. It is not relevant to the debate.

Mr. Morley

It is one indication why the Government are reluctant to face the electorate. The people of Mayo are disgusted and angry at that decision. They had placed so much hope in that scheme for the development of the west. It is difficult to understand how after spending £10 million the Government could not find a further £3 million to complete the work.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy's comments would be in order on the budget debate but not now.

Mr. Morley

I mentioned the airport in support of my general theme. The decision is viewed as a vindictive one by the Government against the people of the west. Further evidence of that vindictiveness was contained in the outrageous statement by the Minister for Communications in regard to this project last week.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is being disorderly.

Mr. Morley

I am passing away from the subject. I have outlined the reasons why I believe the Government are postponing the local elections. We have been told that the elections are being postponed because of the need for local government reform but I believe it is because they fear the electorate. I am not surprised that Members on the Government side are reluctant to speak in support of the motion.

Mr. G. Mitchell rose.

An Ceann Comhairle

I should like to draw the Deputy's attention to Standing Order No. 41 which states that a Deputy may speak only once on a motion. The Deputy has already spoken on this motion.

Mr. Nolan

I am pleased to get an opportunity to speak about this important and pressing matter. The Government should outline clearly to the electorate the reason why they are postponing these elections. They should not go behind the door and announce that the reason for the postponement is that they are preparing a plan for local government reform. The Government took office loudly proclaiming that they would be a Government of conscience and would stop all the mad espending they alleged had gone on in the previous three or four years, particularly when Fianna Fáil were in Government. They had a fine opportunity to save some money by holding the local elections and the European elections on the one day next month. I subscribe to the view that local government is in need of reform. As a member of two local authorities I am glad that somebody sees the need for radical reform in that area. Local authorities are viewed as toothless groups without the authority to finance their own operations. That is now an executive function. It is not surprising that when the power to finance their own operations is taken from them the membership of those authorities become frustrated and concerned about their future. When reviewing the role of local authorities the Minister should keep that matter in mind.

I agree with the suggestion put forward by a member of the Minister's party that we should have system of financing local authorities from VAT or PAYE receipts. It would be a good idea if we had a system whereby 1 per cent or 0.5 per cent of all VAT or PAYE receipts paid from an area would go directly to the county or urban council of that area. That would be a form of decentralisation. It is unfortunate that in the last ten or 15 years all decisions have been centralised. When we had local health boards and committees of agriculture there was a better commitment from the officials and local representatives involved. Those officials are frustrated because they do not know what their role is. County and urban councils are losing officials of great ability who are departing because they feel hamstrung. Highly qualified engineers and architects are upset because they do not have adequate finance to prepare schemes. It is regrettable that they should be coerced into seeking alternative employment. Local authority employees should be given every opportunity to play a full role in their chosen professions.

As a member of a town commission I have experience of how small local authorities operate. With regard to the Muine Bheag Town Commissioners, their role is de facto to look after five local authority houses. One would not be encouraged to put their name on a ballot paper for a local election if one was likely to be ridiculed for having spent so much money on an election to get nine people to look after five houses. Our infrastructure is breaking down and councils have not been given sufficient money in recent years for the upkeep of roads. Now county councillors are providing a firemen's service or running around with 10-ton trucks with barrels of tar and chippings at the back for the purpose of filling in potholes. The employees are becoming frustrated because the public are looking at them and they feel like goldfish in a bowl. They are being ridiculed by the general public for doing such menial tasks. This morning I saw some of them washing signposts. That is not the proper function of any local government employee.

The Minister will have to look at some form of multi-annual financing. We in the locla authorities are asked to prepare five-year plans and when we do so we do not know what our financial allocation will be for the coming year. I hope a system of proper financing will be brought in so that local authorities can have multi-annual budgeting.

There are a number of grey areas in housing. Housing repairs have been severely cut back recently, and I hope that the Minister will look favourably at this matter. As my colleague, Deputy Morley, said, it is to be regretted that the LIS grant scheme has been withdrawn from some counties in the Leinster area particularly. It came as a great shock to find that no money was forthcoming from the Department.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Nolan, I would rather not interrupt you but I must be consistent. I cannot let one person develop something and refuse someone else.

Mr. Nolan

I am trying to develop a little interest in this debate. In the Minister's review of local authorities the system whereby money which has been allocated by the EEC comes to central Government and passes to local authorities must be stopped. It is not right that we as county councillors cannot find out exactly how much money is being provided by the Exchequer for county councils because money from Europe is being thrown into a big pot and mixed around and then county councils get some of it. It is very difficult to find out exactly how much is being provided by central funds and how much comes from the EEC Regional Fund.

As I have said, the Government should not go behind the ditch and make the excuse that the local elections have been postponed because of local government reform which the Government are considering at present. They are being postponed for political reasons. This Government are afraid to face the country, and sooner or later they will have to do so. Perhaps some Members feel that a general election will take place before the next local government elections and that may be so. Certain Government Ministers have come under great pressure from their local representatives, in particular the Labour Party who are very concerned about their position and the undermining of their role when a local election comes. Also, one should not forget that many Government Senators may not be able to retain their Seanad seats if local elections are held next year because of the turn these local elections may take. I regret that the local elections are not being held. When they are held we on this side will subscribe to any proper and programmed proposals the Government may have for local government reform because we are as concerned as if not more concerned than some of the Government Deputies about this.

Mr. Reynolds

Our spokesman has to get his opportunity and the Minister of State needs time to respond to all the suggestions that have been made throughout this very long debate, so I will not delay the House. In any reasonable approach to the argument put up by the Government for postponing the local elections any resonable person must accept that it was no more than a cynical political exercise motivated in that regard only. The Minister, the Minister of State or anybody else on that side of the House would not expect any reasonable person to believe that you are going to reform local government in what is left now, nine of that 12 months. There is absolutely no chance. Three months are gone already.

Mr. F. O'Brien

We are reforming it.

Mr. Reynolds

The first step that I can see in reforming local government has been to bring your Bill through the Dáil to establish the county managers with arbitrary powers in every local authority. If that is the first step in reform, if that is the type of legislation you are thinking about, then it is in reverse you are going in regard to local authority reform.

Mr. F. O'Brien

Obviously you did not take an interest in the Bill.

Mr. Reynolds

I know the effects and everybody in the country knows the effects of the first Bill that you brought in to this House——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should address the Chair and the Minister should not interrupt.

Mr. Reynolds

We will not get hot under the collar about that.

Mr. F. O'Brien

Indeed we will not.

Mr. Reynolds

The Minister of State is a member of a local authority and he knows well the effect that legislation has had on local authorities. He knows full well that it was a substitute for a budget in this House and the responsibility for that budget was transferred down on to local authorities. Many members of local authorities would not agree to the exorbitant charges that were to be brought in. The Minister gave county managers arbitrary powers to ensure that the finance was brought in. Your approach to local government and local democracy has been in the reverse direction. If you were genuine in saying you were going to reform local authorities, local authority finance and the whole operation of local authorities you would get full support, but it is a cynical exercise to say that you are going to do it in nine months.

The Minister of State knows that this time next year he will be saying that they are going to postpone the local elections again. By postponing the local elections this year and not allowing them to take place in conjunction with the European elections it is quite clear that the Government, who have preached financial rectitude, better value for money and all the motivation that goes with that, have turned in the opposite direction by allowing the European elections to take place this year without the local elections, whatever the cost of the local elections being held on their own, probably about £1 million. For all time you have ensured that the local elections will not take place in conjunction with the European elections. The European elections are fixed on a five-year basis. You have now made sure that the country has not the opportunity of ever having the local elections again at the same time as the European elections. If you want to expand that over ten or 15 years you are condemning the taxpayers, who are carrying an intolerable burden at the moment, to carry another £15 million to £20 million for all time because you have moved out of line.

One must look behind the scenes to see the real motivation. Why have the Government gone away from what they preached when they came into office? It has been expressed time and time again that you have gone away from it because you sensed exactly the mood of the people. You saw the proof of that in the by-elections and recent events in Greystones show a very serious drop in your support. It is clear what would happen if the local elections were to be held this year. Regarding your cynical excuse about reform, nobody believes that you would do anything about it in nine months — or a year and nine months. It is not only this time that you are going to put them back, you are goint to put them back again next year. In Europe where attempts were made to bring in genuine reforms in local government it took much longer than nine months. There is not a chance of bringing about reform of local government in the greater Dublin area in nine months or in one year and nine months. If all you can do is sit in the Custom House and draw little rings around certain areas of Dublin, there is little hope for reform. The Government have been trying to tell the people that Fianna Fáil were the ones who removed domestic rates but you should reflect on what happened. A previous Coalition Government had reduced the rates by 25 per cent and had given a commitment to phase them out.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should address the Chair.

Mr. Reynolds

It is time you, your councillors, Deputies and Senators around the country realised that you were the first people to push out the boat.

Mr. F. O'Brien

That is what I said.

Mr. Reynolds

No matter what goes wrong, the Government try to pass the buck to Fianna Fáil. Local government financing is breaking down. It is a very serious situation when the inspectorate of the Department are going around using every possible excuse for the holding back of grant payments thereby depriving people of money they need badly.

An Ceann Comhairle

I must be consistent. Yesterday and today I have ruled out discussion of details of administration as not being relevant to the matter before the House.

Mr. Reynolds

I do not think I am going into detail at the moment but the breaking down of local government financing is one of the reasons for the postponement of the local elections. Millions of pounds have been removed from local authorities this year. They have been depreived of the moneys we gave a commitment to provide for them when we abolished domestic rates. When one examines where the cutbacks were made, local authorities were not treated with equality vis-á-vis the other sections of the Department. Grants to local authorities increased by about 0.8 per cent. That does not compare favourably with the expenditure of other sectors of the Department.

Mr. Molloy

The Minister has made reference to this in the course of the debate.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair must rule out detailed discussion either of the administration or of the finances of the Department.

Mr. Reynolds

I submit that this is one of the reasons for the postponement of the local elections.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair does not object to a passing reference but detailed discussion is not appropriate.

Mr. Reynolds

It is easy to find a reason for the postponement of the local elections. The people know well what the reason is. The postponement is not because of the reform of local government. There will be plenty of support from this side of the House for genuine reform in that area but the local authority system is on the point of collapse. The postponement is a cynical exercise to protect the Government from the wrath of the people. You got a taste of that wrath in Greystones and in North Dublin and you will get a taste of it, too, in Laois-Offaly and in the European elections. Our spokesman on Local Government is, like the rest of us, genuinely interested in restoring to local authorities the powers they should have. We would support the Government fully in restoring local democracy. Some of your own councillors throughout the country have turned down the charges but that cannot be said for the county I represent. We are realistic and pragmatic. We gave you support one year but we will not give it to you again until you show that you are genuine in regard to the problems of local authorities. We know the sort of support we got in return this year. Our road network is in a very serious situation. The county road network that was built up during a long period of years is being allowed to go into total decay. County roads in Longford, for instance, that are being tarred now will not be tarred again for 22 years if the present situation continues. We are facing the collapse of our entire infrastructure. The postponement of the local elections is not the way to save yourselves from the wrath of the electorate. You will not get away with that.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should speak to the Chair.

Mr. Reynolds

The Minister is nodding in approval.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair must proceed in accordance with Standing Orders. I am now ruling that Deputy Reynolds cease directing his remarks personally to the Minister.

Mr. Reynolds

The Minister is smiling because the Chair's intervention is giving him some relief from this attack.

Mr. Molloy

As it is a shame to see the Minister on his own, he having been deserted by his colleagues in both parties to the Government, perhaps we could have a quorum.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,

Mr. Reynolds

By postponing the local elections this year the Government are making sure that they can never again be held with the European Elections and that taxpayers will have to foot the bill for local elections. When the Government came to office they stated they were interested in saving money. After one-and-a-half years it has become very clear that the Government talk about the nice things they do. They set out in their programe for Government what they would do but they have done the direct opposite to what was contained in that. The Government are all talk with no action.

We all know that local government reform is necessary and Fianna Fáil would support constructive ways of reforming it but we will not support the cynical way in which it is being approached. Very little has been done by the Government other than talking about reform. If they were genuinely interested in this they would put forward a proposal to set up a committee of the House to look at the matter. Many Members are very experienced in local authority administration as many of them were members of local authorities before they became Members of the House. Such a committee could examine the problems of local government, long term financial planning and what the Government's contribution should be in the years ahead.

As regards local government finance, one of the worst features is that they just stagger on from year to year. The Minister and his officials would be the first to agree that we do not get value for money in the local authority area because they do not know from one year to the next what their finances will be. We all know that they try to spend money when it is coming towards the end of the year so that they will have spent it before the end of the year. That does not represent good value for money or good financial planning. There must be long term financial planning. That is part of local government reform and is essential. They must know where they are going. From year to year we do not know how much money they will spend or how long a project will last for. That system is outdated and should be done away with. We must have three-or five-year planning.

No doubt this cynical exercise will place an additional burden on the taxpayer. It will not be carried out this year. I am sure the Minister will agree that the reconstitution of local authorities in the greater Dublin area will not happen in a year and nine months. The Government have made an error of judgement in postponing the local elections. They would have been better off if they had taken their medicine on day one.

The Irish are a concerned electorate but they are also a very discerning one. When the time comes they will give their answer to this cosmetic proposal which states that local elections must be postponed because of local government reform. I leave it to the Minister to think about the points I have made.

Mr. Browne

The Government's decision to postpone the local elections has denied the people a chance to exercise their democratic right to select the type of public representative they want over the next five years. The system of local government is being downgraded by the proposed actions of the Government. The excuses being put forward are pathetic. The reform of local government is being used as an excuse but when will we see some evidence of reform? There is no Bill or White Paper but rather idle talk and excuses. The public are not fooled by the excuses being put forward. They know the Government are afraid to face the electorate because of the sorrowful mess they have made of running the country for the last 18 months.

In the by-elections in Donegal and Dublin the Government were annihilated. The same thing will happen again in Laois-Offaly. It is good that the Taoiseach and the Government have no say about the holding of the European elections; otherwise the country would be starved of elections altogether. It is obvious the Government have run for cover and taken the easy way out.

Of course it can be argued that local elections were postponed before. I first stood for the county council in 1979. At that time we had a postal strike and petrol and oil shortages. Fianna Fáil had every reason to postpone the election but they took a courageous decision and faced the electorate. They gave the people an opportiunity to exercise their rights at the ballot box. Regardless of how poorly a Government are doing the whole concept of democracy should be maintained. This Government do not believe in allowing the people to exercise their democratic rights unless it is to their advantage.

If the local elections were held with the European elections, as they should be, this inept, fumbling, disastrous Government would be wiped out at the polls. It should be compulsory for Governments, regardless of who is in power, to hold local elections every five years. I would like to see that as part of the suggested reform, whenever it comes. The present system allows the democratice system to be abused and kicked about, regardless of the feelings of the public, and undermines the whole area of democratic politics.

Local government is the most important tier of government in this country where members of local authorities have close liaison with the local people. The result of this closeness means that the public representatives are very aware of the needs of the people they represent. At the local level these public representatives carry out this work in a very efficient and diligent manner with very little reward for their endeavours. In any reform of local government the role of councillors should be updated. They should be given proper facilities, financial and otherwise, to enable them to represent the people properly. Due to the high cost of travel, postage and telephone charges local authorities will soon be the domain of only the rich members of society. If that were to happen many of our voting population would not have proper representation.

Recently a deputation from the Wexford County Council met the Minister of State, Deputy O'Brien. We pointed out the serious financial position of Wexford County Council — almost £3 million in debt. He told us to go home and introduce more charges. Is this the type of reform we are to have: charges, more charges and extra charges at a time when the public are rebelling against the charges introduced by county managers?

We must have long-term planning for local government along the lines proposed by Deputy Reynolds. It is obvious that this Government are not concerned with reform. They have made no effort to initiate reform. All they are concerned about is not facing the people and keeping their majority on county councils and statutory bodies throughout the country. For that reason it is a disgrace that people are not being given a chance to put their views before the Government and to let them know what they feel.

Mr. Molloy

May we have a quorum to hear the Government's arguments in favour of this motion?

Mr. F. O'Brien

Did the Deputy not hear what his Whip said yesterday?

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,

Mr. Daly

Like other Fianna Fáil Deputies I want to deplore the Government's attempts to postpone the local elections, especially because they have not given any indication whether the elections will be held next year or the year after.

Mr. Carey

Will the Deputy stand next year?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Carey should not interrupt.

Mr. Daly

I do not think any Member would deny the need to reform local government and to look at the system which is in operation. I do not believe there is a better way for discussion of this subject than by getting involved in the local elections and having a debate on the whole system of local democracy, how it operates and how it can be changed to make it more effective. If the Government really needed an occassion to launch a public debate on this issue, they could have taken advantage of the local elections.

Any worthwhile changes which come about in local authority reorganisation will take some time to carry through. Even if the Government were prepared now to publish their ideas for a new frame work for local administration, I am not sure it would be in operation in time for the elections which should be held in five years' time, if the present procedures were adhered to. The efforts the Government are making in reforming local administration must be seen in this light. In my view their attempts shroud the real purpose for the postponement of the elections, that is, that they are afraid to face the electorate on these issues.

There have been many changes in the system of public and local administration since our Independence. In 1925 the city and county management system evolved, as did county vocational educational committees, agriculture committiees and so on. We had the Local Government Act in 1945, the City and County Management Acts, and the involvement of local authorities in the areas of local government, sanitary services, health and so on in the forties and early fifties. The Planning and Housing Acts of the sixties, indeed all the legislation in those years, brought about very few changes in local authority administration. We now find duplication of services, overlapping in regional planning, all of which cost an enormous amount of money which could be saved. This happens because of lack of co-operation and communication between the various local authorities in the matter of planning and developing capital investment in the provision of infrastructure such as roads, electricity, sewerage, telephones and other such items.

It is important that there should be communication and co-ordination between the various local authorities in the matter of regional development. In the mid-west region we have Limerick Corporation, Limerick County Council, Clare County Council, Ennis UDC, all of whom operate independently in regard to planning. There is absence of a simple unified approach in regard to area development, and the result is that regional consideration is not being given to this matter. In other words, there is an absence of simple co-ordination which would take care of regional planning for that entire important area. As I have said, there is duplication in regard to essential services.

It is important, therefore, that in the review being undertaken, and in the public debate that will follow proposals for reform, we will ensure that there will be greater consideration given to co-operation between local authorities and regional development organisations. Some of the organisations we have at the moment are talking shops. They are not really effective in highlighting development needs in the different areas. The co-operation I am advocating could provide useful savings by avoiding duplication and overlapping without, of course, interfering with local interests. I hope we will try to be clear as to whether it will be necessary in future to have local authorities involved in areas which are the responsibility of other agencies and organisations.

I should like to speak in particular about the involvement of local authorities in financing the VECs. This is in the field of education and the Department should cover the costs of these bodies. It may have been a different matter in the past when local authorities were financed from local sources, but this has been changed and it will be necessary to consider carefully whether local authorities should be involved in the financing of the VECs, whether they should have responsibility for arterial drainage, fisheries, harbours and other such matters. There will be divided opinions on this matter, some people agreeing that local authorities should have more say in the development of harbours, etc.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is going into the question of reform in detail.

Mr. Daly

I am doing so because I believe it is useful that people would be clear in their minds on the shape of the reforms necessary in local authorities. It will be necessary to consider whether local authorities should have involvement in industrial development. In many countries in Europe local government bodies have deep involvement in such matters.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is going very deeply into the question of reform.

Mr. Daly

These are matters in which local authorities would have an interest, particularly because of their keen interest and awareness of the need for industries in the regions, especially the poorer areas. It may be decided that they should be involved directly in industrial development.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,

Mr. Molloy

The Government should ensure that there is a quorum.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Daly, without interruption.

Mr. Daly

It is important to bring together authorities who have a bearing on regional development in order to ensure that the best value is obtained from scarce resources and duplication avoided. It is also necessary to involve other public bodies and Government Departments. We have all received complaints about the electricity, postal and communications services and the local authorities operating independently of each other. We hear about footpaths being repaired only to be ripped up again the following week for sewerage repairs or the installation of electricity cables or telephone lines. It must be possible to achieve the necessary degree of co-ordination to stop this kind of activity. We cannot afford this waste which would be saved by all the essential services to a town or villages being provided simultaneously, rather than sewerage pipes being put in first, post office lines then the ESB work done after that.

Mr. Dowling

On point of order, what has that to do with the motion?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is not a point of order.

Mr. Daly

If the Deputy had been listening, but I do not think he was, he would have understood the point that I am making. The bill for all this lack of planning in provision of services will be picked up by the taxpayers. It is necessary to co-ordinate infrastructural development to ensure less duplication and better value for money. If the Deputy thinks about it he will realise how essential is the co-ordination of the activities of various Departments at present all operating their own independent systems at enrolmous cost to the taxpayer.

Mr. Dowling

The Deputy is only postponing the elections by making that point. That is what should have been done for years.

Mr. Daly

The Deputy is running away from the elections because he is afraid of the result.

Mr. Sheehan

Deputy Daly's party have postponed them three times for three years.

Mr. Daly

The postponement has nothing to do with reform of local administration. What we are trying to do here is be constructive in opening the debate which the local election campaign would have opened up in regard to local government reform. We could have got the views of all the people as to how the reform was to take place, instead of which the Government are running away from the election in the guise of making changes. We all know that the changes necessary will not take place in six months or, indeed, the next two to five years. The Government know that themselves and everybody else here does also. It is quite possible that another motion will be tabled here next year to postpone the elections still further.

Mr. Sheehan

The work to be done is being done.

Mr. Daly

It is necessary to have debate on reform of local government but the Government should not try to justify the postponement on the grounds that in six months they will have the necessary legislation to put before the House. It would be well if they had, but they do not know the position themselves from day to day.

Mr. Molloy

We are 12 months waiting for the proposals on these reforms.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Daly without interruptions, please.

Mr. F. O'Brien

Deputy Daly's party gave us a White Paper.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Sheehan

His was the party for postponements.

Mr. Daly

Government Members would be dragged screaming in here, if the Government had any interest in reforming local government. There is a case for reform and the various agencies who are involved in the necessary Government expenditure shall be brought together for the provision of the essential services in the best manner.

Mr. Sheehan

That is what we intend to do.

Mr. Daly

The Government are running away.

Dáil Éireann debate - Wednesday, 23 May 1984

Local Elections (Specification of Local Election Year) Order, 1984: Motion (Resumed).

An Leas-Cheann-Comhairle

Tá

Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 23 May 1984