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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 5 Mar 1985

Vol. 356 No. 7

Private Members' Business. - Fishing Industry: Motion.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann takes note of the serious implications for our fishing and fish processing industry from the proposed enlargement of the Community by the admission of Spain and Portugal to the EC, and calls on the Government to ensure that whatever arrangements are necessary to protect our national interests are included in the accession agreement.

The EC enlargement negotiations with Spain and Portugal have been going on for some time. Progress has been slow but the negotiations are now entering their final phase. Inevitably, the issues being discussed now are the most difficult and complicated and it is true to say there is widespread anxiety and uncertainty among fishermen here in regard to future prospects for their industry. I will put on record views expressed by the representatives of the three major fishing organisations, the Irish Fish Producers Organisations, the IFO and the Killybegs Fishermens Organisation. A circular issued to all TDs stated:

The primary objective of the I.F.O., the I.F.P.O. and the K.F.O. in relation to their opposition to current accession negotiations is to prevent Irish fishing interests being subordinated to the interest of other sectors within the Community.

The circular states that the Spanish fleet:

is so large that concentrated fishing in Community waters would decimate the Irish Industry. Even limited access to Community waters by Spanish vessels spells danger for Ireland, given their blatant disregard for any rules or regulations.

Spanish fishing activities in our waters have been the subject of an agreement between Spain and the EC, signed in April 1980 and ratified in May the following year. That framework agreement arose from The Hague Agreement of 1976 and set down the outlines for and EC agreement on fisheries, and this has been going on since 1976. Ireland would accept an agreement subject to the condition that Ireland would fish the 50 miles around the Irish coast. The Spanish rights would terminate at the 12 mile zone and Spanish catches would be reduced progressively to a modest level.

This framework agreement was ratified in May 1981 and its terms have been complied with since. There has been a systematic effort made by the Community to reduce fishing activities by Spain in Community waters and this has reduced the Spanish activities in coastal areas by 50 per cent since the agreement. There is no doubt that Spanish access to Community waters and fish resources is the most difficult problem that will have to be dealt with in the current negotiations. Spain is pressing for equality and has suggested that its fishing rights should be based not on the framework agreement but on the situation in operation in 1981 before the framework agreement became operative.

We all know the size and proportions of the Spanish fleet and that it will pose a major threat to our industry. I will give a brief indication of the capacity of the Spanish fishing fleet. The fleet numbers 17,500 vessels capable of 750,000 gross registered tonnes. We have approximately 1,600 vessels with a capacity of 36,000 tonnes. In the Community the Spanish fleet would represent 70 per cent of the entire fishing fleet. Total fish landings by Spain in 1983 was 1.1 million tonnes as against Irish landings of 200,000 tonnes. Spain imported 270,000 tonnes and exported something like 200,000 tonnes, about our total catch.

The position is that Spain, with a fleet of that size and capacity, is now fighting very hard in the Community to gain access to Community waters. If access is granted to Spain it will mean annihilation of the Irish industry and devastation, with widespread unemployment, with prospects of employment in the future seriously undermined.

We expected the Government to adopt a strict line in regard to the negotiations with Spain and there were indications earlier that the Government would insist on at least a 20-year transition period and that within that period Spanish activities in our coastal areas would not be increased so that their operations would be minimised and curtailed as far as possible in Irish waters. Our industry is a young one which has already made significant gains but we need to expand and protect our industry.

There has been recent indication of a weakening of the Government resolve in regard to Spain. We understand that a ten year transition period has been agreed and it later transpired that that period would be added to by a possible five years, this to be insisted on before negotiations could get under way. However, there has been a Council proposal that the 20-year transition period which we understand the Government to be maintaining had been replaced and there has been a suggestion of a seven year transition period. There is genuine fear that the transition period will not be even ten years but seven years.

It may be that in further negotiations Spain will seek to get concessions in a graded way which will bring them fully into our areas within a short time. That would be disastrous for us and it must be resisted by those negotiating on our behalf. We are not satisfied that that is being done to the best advantage as far as we are concerned.

It has been suggested that because there is such a huge demand for fish in Spain — Spanish consumption of fish is in the region of 1.2 million tonnes per year; the per capita fish consumption in Europe is 40 pounds annually as against 12 pounds here — that we would have an opportunity in the marketing area to exploit. We should look at our marketing arrangements in regard to Spain because there is a cause for some concern in that area. It is known and well understood by those involved in the negotiations that Spain has many third country agreements because of their need for fishing opportunities. They have about 20 international agreements along the west coast of Africa, with Canada and the United States. In 1983 Spain had 106 joint ventures involving some 200 Spanish vessels and it was estimated that these were responsible for duty free imports of 180,000 tonnes of fish.

It may be that because of Spain's arrangements with third countries the prospects in the marketing area for our industry may not be as they appear. That is why we are concerned and want an assurance that in the accession negotiations the agreements and joint ventures which carry with them concessions do not adversely affect our prospects of getting into that market. The Spaniards also have a marketing problem with fish because of their imports but their biggest problem seems to be in the area of structures. It is well know that their huge fleet is not in a healthy state. Huge injections of capital will be needed to modernise their ageing fleet, get rid of obsolete vessels and overcapacity in the industry. That will weigh heavily on Community resources to the detriment of our economic development under the Common Fisheries Policy. We recognise that our fleet has been expanding and developing with the aid of Community resources which we expect will be available under the Common Fisheries Policy. If we are to be limited in an enlarged Community it will be detrimental to the modernisation and restructuring of our fleet. Any curtailment of funds to our industry from Community sources will be a disadvantage which must be dealt with in any enlargement negotiations.

There is a major concern about the whole area of access to Irish waters. We have had a 50 mile box within which activity was permitted on licence and under strict control and management. In the negotiations involving Spain the Government must insist on getting back to the original demand for a 20 year transitional period. Any attempt to water that down must be opposed by our negotiating team. We must have a longer period than that mentioned.

It is important to note that the Irish case can be based on Article 4.1 of the Regulations 170/83 which states that the volume of catches available shall be distributed between the member states in a manner which assures each member state relative stability of fishing activities to each of the stocks considered. The Government must insist on preserving what we have, particularly in the west and south-west where widespread illegal fishing by Spanish vessels takes place. Our fishery protection service almost daily charge Spanish boats with blatant breaches of our fishery regulations. We must adopt a hard line on that. We are dealing with this from a position of strength. We know where our fleet has progressed and developed in recent years and we see the need for further development. The preservation of the 50 mile box is vital. Preservation of the stocks not being exploited at present is also vital so that our industry can expand in the non-traditional areas. Many people in the industry say that in order to have substantial gains in the fishing area in the coming years there will be a need to move away from the traditional species and get involved in research into new methods of fishing and catching species which have not been exploited by us up to now.

It is evident that the Spanish authorities are seeking access to the species I have mentioned such as horse mackerel, blue whiting and so on which have not been developed to any great extent here. That represents an area for development, job creation and an opportunity for an increase in the incomes of fishermen that will be lost in the negotiations unless the Government provide the incentive to our fleet to get involved in them.

The development of our fishing industry under the Common Fisheries Policy is crucial to our economy. We must respond vigorously to the challenge of the new economic order now confronting us. We have a valuable natural resource and we must develop and exploit it to the fullest. Downstream industries must be developed and extended. The entire fishing industry must be injected with more capital. Participants in the industry must be trained to the highest possible standards if they are to avail of the opportunities that will be available in a new fisheries development programme that will evolve as the Common Fisheries Policy comes into operation.

We are at a stage where the policy is beginning to show results. We have seen the development which has taken place in our fleet. It is recognised that there is a huge potential which has been relatively unexploited. Some of the figures for improvements which have taken place in the fishing industry in the past number of years will give us an indication of how far we have come in such a short time and where we can go if the industry only gets an opportunity to avail of the Common Fisheries Policy, which will be the cornerstone of development in the next few years.

Fish landings have increased from 86,000 tonnes in 1972 to 206,000 tonnes in 1982. Fish exports have grown by 294 per cent between 1978 and 1982. Employment in our fishing industry has grown by over 30 per cent since the mid-seventies, with in excess of 13,000 people being employed in it at present. In the short few years we have seen the expansion of the industry and the development which has taken place in providing jobs in a whole variety of areas, especially in the isolated areas among the coastal communities. It is essential not to put any brakes on that impetus in future. It is vital in the present negotiations that the Government adopt a firm stand. If they do not get the support of the member states they must continue to fight their case, because it is essential in the interests of the industry and of those involved at present; but much more vital to its expansion and development and future possibilities is that the Irish Government take a firm stand and do not allow themselves to be stampeded into reaching agreement in negotiations, not for social or economic reasons but for other reasons. There would appear to be at present a motivation which has nothing to do with enlargement of the Community or with economic or social policies, but with other issues unrelated to them.

I urge the Minister to adopt a firmer line than he has adopted up to now. I am aware that the Minister for Foreign Affairs is conducting these negotiations. At this time there is need for the Minister for Fisheries to become directly involved in negotiations as far as possible. We insist that the Irish case be fought to the very limit in the Community to ensure that our industry is protected and also the present jobs, and plans and prospects with regard to job creation. This will be to the benefit of the fishing industry and the economic benefit of the State in the enlarged Community.

The reason for tabling this motion tonight is that we are not satisfied with the information given or the progress which has taken place to date. We are not satisfied that this issue has been fully teased out and full information given to everybody involved. We are dissatisfied with the way in which the negotiations are being handled and call on the Government to state clearly their position and how they see the enlargement negotiations progressing between now and 1 January 1986, which is the date on which the new enlarged Community will be ratified.

I call Deputy Hugh Byrne, who is to conclude at 7.40 p.m.

I should like to support the motion before the House:

That Dáil Éireann takes note of the serious implications for our fishing and fish processing industry from the proposed enlargement of the Community by the admission of Spain and Portugal to the EEC, and calls on the Government to ensure that whatever arrangements are necessary to protect our national interests are included in the accession agreement.

This motion has been eloquently and decisively proposed by my colleague, our spokesman for Fisheries, Deputy Daly.

Let me say at the outset that every fisherman is sceptical of the activities of the Government in relation to the accession of Spain and Portugal to the EC. They believe that if concessions are given it is the rights of the fisherman and the fishing industry here that will go first.

The Irish fishing waters of their very nature, having the benefit of the warm North Atlantic Drift, are the richest fishery grounds in Europe. Every nation is anxious to fish in these waters and share in the spoils. The Spaniards, in particular, and the Portuguese are anxious to become part of the elite and to reap the vast resources of those fishing grounds. The Spaniards have already tasted our fishing grounds by using loopholes in the system. Given an inch, they have taken a mile — or in nautical terms, a fathom. They have completely exceeded their quotas and completely ignored limits imposed upon them. They have already damaged our fishing grounds. They have clearly shown how inadequate our fishery protection vessels are. These vessels are exceptionally well manned but are lost when they have to move away from shore.

I question the Government's policy in relation to protection. Are they more concerned with attacking our own fisherman than with attacking foreign boats in order to give an impression that something is being done by our fishery protection vessels? The Spaniards and Portuguese are relishing the thought of free access to our rich waters. Recently when a Spanish ship faced a fine of £30,000 it came back again. If one trawler in breaking the law lost £30,000 and made a profit, that puts the richness of our waters into perspective. The Spaniards are notorious for flouting the laws, exercising no control over limits, particularly in the field of conservation. The Spanish fleet is 17,500 strong compared with our 1,000 trawlers. As I understand it, they have unlimited markets at home for all their catches. If they get into our seas they will literally clean them out. They have already been banished from fishing grounds elsewhere. Anything less than a total ban in the Spanish and Portuguese fleets will sound the deathknell of an already ailing fishing industry, an industry hit so hard in recent times that the arrears to Bord Iascaigh Mhara grew from £6 million to £7 million in the period from May 1984 to November 1984 — six months. The recent package put before us by the Minister, which proposes to accommodate in some way BIM boat owners, gives no support whatsoever, apparently, to those who did their own thing, got bank loans and so forth. Pardon the pun, but the Minister is making fish of one and flesh of the other.

The Deputy had better get his facts right.

I should be interested to hear, as would every fisherman, exactly what the position is. If the Minister is supporting all fishermen, I am sure they will be delighted. However, that is not what they believe at present. We shall give the Minister full opportunity to hand out this information.

Anything less than a full commitment to Irish fishing, fishermen and their families and the full protection of our waters will be seen as a sell-out by the Government. We welcome the fact that Spain and Portugal have applied for membership of the EC. They will fight their battle to get as good a bargain as is possible for themselves. We must with equal resolve ensure that Ireland and our fishing industry will not be the scapegoat. Now is the time to put in the boot, to say "Thus far shalt thou go and no further". From the latest thinking in Commission circles, it appears that a proposal has been put forward for a seven year transition period after which there will be a free-for-all. I am disgusted that the Government would even allow that be put before the Commission. In the famous phrase, that is out.

Another proposal is that 200 Spanish fishing trawlers of 700 horse power will be allowed initially to fish inside the 200 mile limit to the Irish "box", the main feature of which is the 12 degree line of longitude off the west coast, but as close as 50 miles to our coast. That also is out. We are in the EC and surely that should be to our advantage. Spain and Portugal are anxious to get in. Let them take what they are offered by us and let us not offer them an industry which, if developed, could boost our economy enormously which is being strangled and starved.

Our fishing industry is one of our greatest natural resources and deserves such recognition which has not been forthcoming in the past two and a half years. We need support to develop our fleet, to train our fishermen, to develop our harbours, and, above all, to develop markets at home and abroad. The importation of enormous quantities of fish into the EC should be taken into account immediately. The prospect of fish sales at acceptable prices to Poland, and other countries of a similar nature, should be investigated.

The development of harbours is a must to help boost this flagging industry. I should like to make particular reference to the Kilmore Quay harbour. It is well known that Kilmore Quay needs to be dredged immediately and it certainly needs extension. It should be given major harbour status. What is the position in relation to Kilmore Quay? If we are to compete we must have a strong fleet with a fully developed harbour. Everybody agrees that the Kilmore fleet is most industrious and most productive. That dredging should be carried out immediately. When will that happen? Some time last year we were told it was imminent. Now it seems that it has been put on the long finger.

The debate on this whole issue should be extended to cover the submarine activity in the Irish Sea. I do not say this lightly. Recently a Scottish fishing vessel with five people aboard disappeared. No body has been found and no wreckage has been found. This was another incident in the Irish Sea. I have had letters from people in the Isle of Man and in Scotland about this incident. What are the Minister's intentions in relation to this new menace out there, a menace which has increased significantly over the past few years? There has been a loss of life and a loss of boats, and there is a great fear on the part of the fishermen for their lives and their livelihoods. What precisely does the Minister intend to do?

I call on the Minister for Fisheries and Forestry and the Minister for Foreign Affairs to meet the IFO immediately. They are very concerned about the accession of Spain and Portugal. They should meet them in the next few weeks before any decisions are taken. I agree with my colleague that the information being made available to us is very scant on a subject which is of vital importance to this economy. We do not know what is going on out there. I do not think the fishermen trust the Minister to bring home a good deal. If the Minister put his cards on the table we could advise and support him to ensure that, when Spain and Portugal join the EC, a good deal will have been made. If the Minister puts his cards on the table we guarantee him our full support in the interests of the Irish fishing industry.

A Cheann Comhairle, I welcome the opportunity to outline to Dáil Éireann the general approach pursued by the Government on the fisheries chapter of the enlargement negotiations.

Deputy Daly, in his statement, has touched on the anxieties felt by Irish fishermen about the future development of the Irish fishing industry in an enlarged Community. The Government are conscious of the apprehensions and anxieties of our fishermen. It is with a firm commitment, therefore, to ensuring that the arrangements which are ultimately to be agreed comply with the developmental needs of the Irish fishing industry that the Government have determined their general approach to the negotiations with Spain. Portugal given the size and structure of its fleet, and its traditional fishing patterns, has less interest in gaining significant access to the waters and resources of the present Community.

Before going into detail on our approach to the negotiations it might be helpful to say a few words about the Common Fisheries Policy into which Spain has to be integrated, and give the Dáil some background on recent developments in the negotiations on the fisheries chapter.

It is easy to understand why the fisheries chapter should be the most sensitive outstanding one in the enlargement negotiations, and the least easy one in which to arrive at solutions. It is of fundamental concern to Ireland, and to countries like the UK, Denmark, France and Germany, which have significant fishing interests in the North Atlantic, that the integration of Spain fishing into the Community's Common Fisheries Policy should not lead to upheaval in a policy brought into existence a mere two years ago, after seven years of very difficult negotiations among the Ten, and designed to last until the year 2002, with provision for some review in 1993. The difficulties in bringing the policy into existence are successfully described in a 1983 publication by the European Commission:

"After seven years of tough negotiations, the common fisheries policy has taken its place as a fully-fledged Community policy. It was not an easy achievement. A great deal of effort and good will was needed on all sides. The ultimate success of the negotiations proves that it is possible to reconcile differences of view and allow the common European interest to prevail. A new European policy has been born. This is an important sign that, slowly, step by step, the construction of Europe is proceeding.

The Common Fisheries Policy put in place at the beginning of 1983 is designed to maintain fishing opportunities for community member states and to assist the rational development of the fishing industry in the Community through the application of a range of conservation measures, through the regulation of member states' fishing activity, through organisation of the Community market for fish and through Community financial assistance for structural changes. This policy, even if it has been criticised by Irish and indeed other Community fishermen, has, I believe, ensured relatively stable fishing patterns for Community fishermen by striking a balance between the need to protect stocks and the requirements of the fishing industries of the member states. In Ireland's case the so-called "Irish Box" ensures that the Spanish fishing effort is confined to areas outside 50 miles and that Spanish vessels do not compete with Irish vessels on fishing grounds normally worked by the great majority of Irish boats. Unlike other member states of the Community who have fishing opportunities in the North Sea and in the waters of third countries, we are, as you know, very largely dependent on our coastal waters for our fisheries.

I might refer here to the "box" and say that, from what Deputy Daly has intimated, he regards the "box" as something that was sacrosanct from the beginning. I might point out that when I became Minister — and I am quite sure in his time as Minister — there were pressures at Council meetings in Brussels and in Luxembourg to breach that "box". In other words, there was not an acceptance of this "box" as something that should be kept intact by us with the agreement of other member states of the Community. I recall that a crunch stage was reached in 1983 when negotiating a Norwegian deal in the North Sea when our box was being used as a quid pro quo and when we insisted on keeping the Irish “box” intact.

On later occasions the same attack was made on this "box" and we still insisted that it formed part of our negotiated position. We still hold that view. As Deputies will see later the "box" is now accepted by the Commission, not by us, as part of something which is not to be tampered with in relation to negotiations, or as not to form part of a deal, or to be frittered away as part of a deal. I shall deal later with the question of the length of the transition period.

The Irish fishing industry has benefited considerably from the operation of the Common Fisheries Policy. In 1983 total landings of fish in Irish ports were valued at £51 million. At present some 12,900 people are employed in the fishing industry, of whom 8,000 are commercial fishermen. Our preliminary estimate of the value of our exports of fish and fish products in 1984 is approximately £82 million.

It was inevitable that the negotiations on fisheries with Spain would prove difficult, since for Spain, fisheries is a subject of major economic and political importance. A traditional sea-fishing and seafaring nation, Spain has the fourth largest fishing fleet in the world, some 17,400 vessels, which is approximately 70 per cent of the size of the present Community fleet. I should add, however, that only 106 Spanish vessels are at present entitled to fish in Community waters at any given time. The fishing industry in Galicia and in the Basque country is of central importance to these regions.

As to the negotiations themselves, I might mention an allegation made by Deputy Daly when he said we were pulling back from our original stance which put the transition period at 20 years. That is the first time I have heard 20 years mentioned. I presume that if we were negotiating a 20 year transition period today the far side of the House would be talking about 30 years. This is the kind of political nonsense in which we indulge in a most important area when we should all be on the same side trying to push our case on a realistic basis, not on airy fairy basis.

The fishermen are now saying it apart from us.

This is the first time I have heard 20 years mentioned.

The Minister does not listen to the fishermen.

Deputy Byrne mentioned that he was sceptical of what we were at. I might say I am very sceptical of his contribution and the motivation behind it. I was very careful to take down part of what the Deputy said — that nothing less than a total ban on Spanish fishing would satisfy him, whereas five minutes afterwards he said that he welcomed the application of Spain to join the Community. How the Deputy can welcome the application of Spain to become a new member of the EC while saying, "You can come in but you will get damn all", I do not know. That is the kind of unrealistic——

What does the Minister want me to say? I would not give away as much as the Minister.

I would expect anybody in this House to stand up and be true to himself or herself in making a speech. One cannot have jam on both sides and Deputy Byrne is long enough around to know that.

I am not looking for jam on both sides. We are looking for some support for the fishermen.

I did not interrupt Deputy Byrne and, if he continues to interrupt I will continue to speak. The cliché-ridden speech of Deputy Byrne who said we had not got sufficient resources for our protection, and indeed made the serious allegation that our protection vessels were more concerned with catching Irishmen than with catching third country trawlers in breach of regulations is something I refute categorically because it is totally untrue. Anybody with any idea of the record of our Naval Service is apprehending boats and ships in breach of EC regulations, particularly Spanish boats and ships, would know that. Anybody talking from the depth of ignorance which the Deputy would seem to talk from on that issue would be better off saying nothing.

I am surprised at the Minister.

Ah, let him off.

As to the negotiations themselves, the Government were at pains to ensure that the principle of the relative stability of the Community's fish stocks and the requirements of the Irish fishing industry were fully protected in the offer which the Community decided, in December last, to present to Spain and Portugal. In brief, the Community's offer to Spain on access includes the following main elements:—

(i) Spain would have access, on the basis of 1984 quantities, to those species which it currently enjoys. These species — for example, hake — are subject to the Community's total allowable catch and quotas control mechanisms. However, this fishing would continue to be governed by a licencing system;

(ii) Spain would have access to quantities, yet to be determined, of horse mackerel and blue whiting within the framework of a transitional licencing system;

(iii) The transitional arrangements should last for ten years — with the possibility that this could be reduced to eight years if satisfactory post-transitional arrangements could be adopted before the end of 1983. If such arrangements could not be implemented by 1995, the ten years' transitional period would be extended for a further five years — i.e. until the virtual expiry of the present arrangements under the common fisheries policy in its present form in 2002.

(iv) With regard to the Irish "box", the Community position states clearly that Spanish vessels should not have access for fishing purposes to the Irish "box" area during the transitional period.

There are good reasons why the offer made to Spain by the Community envisages a long transitional period, with fishing possibilities broadly similar to those at present enjoyed by Spain, and the exclusion of Spanish fishing from the Irish "box". Spain's reaction to this offer has been decidedly negative. Spain has expressed strong opposition to the possibility of a 15-year transition period, fearing that such a long transition would exclude her from effective participation in the review of the Common Fisheries Policy due to take place in 1993. Moreover, Spain is seeking access to the Irish "box" from the date of accession.

Spain's reaction to the Community's offer has led some member states which do not have significant fishing interests in the North Atlantic to raise questions about the length of the transitional period offered to Spain and also to query other aspects of the Community offer. Moreover, with a view to advancing the negotiations and narrowing the wide gap which exists between the Community and Spain on fisheries, the Commission recently produced a new set of proposals for consideration by the Council. Deputy Byrne also made the ludicrous suggestion that he was surprised that the Government allowed the Commission to make this proposal. The former Minister, Deputy Daly, will confirm that Governments do not influence Commission proposals in any way. They are made by the Commission, the Council then discuss them and accept or reject them as the case may be. Governments have no input into strictly Commission proposals.

Is the Minister going to let the whole matter slide and say nothing about it?

We cannot have interruptions.

Briefly, these proposals envisaged limiting Spanish fishing activities to sea areas Vb, VI, VII and VIII; during a seven year transitional period: the retention of the Irish "box" for that period only; a control system, to govern Spanish fishing, along the lines of that which at present regulates fishing in the Shetland "box" area; strict monitoring procedures; access to hake, monkfish and megrim, which Spain currently enjoys, together with modest additional allocations of other species, such as nephrops, pollock and sea bream. Central to the Commission's approach was the proposal that, both before accession and in the course of the seven year transitional period, Spain should be given financial aid to reduce the capacity of that part of its fleet which is active in the North Atlantic.

While we welcomed the Commission's ideas on reducing the capacity of the Spanish fleet, to bring it into line with the actual volume of resources which Spain would be legally entitled to take after accession, other elements of the proposals were unacceptable to Ireland. In particular we could not agree to a mere seven year transitional period after which Spain would be given access to the Irish "box".

Recent discussions in the Council of Ministers have identified possibilities of improving the Community's offer to Spain through some modest additional allocation to Spain of quotas for certain species, such as nephrops, pollack and squid, as well as the provision of financial aid to encourage Spain to reduce the capacity of her fleet. However, the Irish Government, with the support of member states which fish the North Atlantic, have firmly insisted during recent Council discussions on the need for a long transitional period, on the need to exclude Spanish vessels from the Irish "box" for the duration of this period, and on the need to ensure that any Spanish quotas on accession should respect the relative stability of the existing member states' percentage shares of the stocks subject to total allowable catches (TACs) and quotas and the general balance of their fishing activities. There are, of course, a number of other important aspects in the fisheries dossier, to which Deputy Daly has referred, on which we have been taking a firm line with a view to ensuring that our fishing interests are fully protected. In particular, we have emphasised that the final arrangements should ensure that the fish, and fish products, produced by member states of the present Community should not be displaced by similar products coming from Spain. Moreover, appropriate arrangements should be made to ensure that the large proportion of the Spanish fleet which fishes distant, non-Community waters should continue to do so, thus preventing even further pressure on Community waters.

Deputy Daly referred to this and I agree we must ensure that they maintain these contracts with third countries which they have done in West Africa, Latin America and the South Atlantic. When they become members, these connections will no longer be bilateral; they will be handled by the Commission from then on and it is in our interests, as a member of the Community, to ensure that we maintain these links and that the fishing rights which Spain has established to these waters will be maintained. I assure Deputies that they can depend on our assistance and insistence on that in so far as we can. At the same time, however, we need to ensure that Spanish catches, under either Spain's bilateral agreements with third countries, or under the commercial joint ventures between Spanish fisheries interests and their counterparts in third countries, do not lead to the displacement of Irish fish exports on the Community market. Deputies will appreciate that our objectives on these matters are shared by other members states of the present Community for whom exports of North Atlantic fish are of considerable economic importance.

I refer to a statement made by Deputy Byrne which was exaggerated. However, he was on the right track. We are not too sure to what extent Spain is taking fish out of the Community waters simply because we do not have the powers to scrutinise their books and follow their catches into the ports of landing in Spain. This is a facility we would have if they were members. That is one of the advantages of Spanish membership. Under CFP regulations we would have access to Spain and to the points of discharge of their catches. We would be able to establish for the first time to what extent they were taking stocks from Community waters.

The Government intend to contribute constructively to the work of bringing the Community's negotiations with Spain and Portugal to an early conclusion. We intend to ensure, at the same time, that the existing balance of the Common Fisheries Policy is not upset as a result of the fisheries negotiations with Spain and that the final agreement will be one which will enable our fishing industry to continue to develop its potential in future years. In addition to pressing for a long transitional period, for the preservation of the Fish box as a necessary means of control, and for reduction of Spain's North Atlantic fishing capacity, we shall seek to ensure that the final agreement with Spain will avoid any possibility of upheaval in the Common Fisheries Policy when the transitional period comes to an end.

The Government's approach to the present negotiations is fully in line with that which has been pursued by successive Governments in relation to defending our interests in the fisheries sector since we joined the Community.

The norm which has been set in relation to other chapters in negotiations is seven years. I rebut any suggestions that we have pulled back from a 20 year level. That was never mentioned by anyone until tonight. As Deputies are aware, at the European Council in The Hague in 1976, we secured a particularly favourable agreement on fisheries. The concession fought for and won at that time was that the figures taken into account for establishing our quotas when the CFP became effective would be twice the 1976 catch. That was a major concession won by the then Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy FitzGerald. He is a man to whom we owe a lot in relation to that negotiation.

This agreement explicitly recognised the need to secure the continued and progressive development of the Irish fishing industry. The realisation of this objective formed the basis of our negotiating stance in the protracted discussions on the establishment of the Common Fisheries Policy which came into operation on 1 January 1983. The arrangements to be concluded with Spain, particularly on access to waters and resources and with regard to the duration of the transitional period, are unlikely to be easily arrived at. Among the factors which may make for difficult negotiations are the somewhat exaggerated expectations apparently entertained by Spain and the consideration that some member states of the present Community appear to feel that the countries with fishing interests in the North Atlantic should contemplate sacrifices on fisheries to balance those made by countries which will pay the price of post-accession competition from Spain and Portugal in, for example, the wine and agricultural sectors.

The Government intend, however, to show the same determination as in the past in working for an outcome favourable to the further development of the Irish fishing industry. Irish fishing communities and the Irish fish processing industry can rest assured of the Government's intention to ensure that the developmental needs of the Irish fishing industry are fully taken into account in the difficult negotiations which lie ahead.

The enlargement negotiations including, of course, the sensitive fisheries chapter, have now entered a decisive phase. We are now preparing for an important meeting of the Council of Ministers which is scheduled for 17-19 March 1985. It is hoped that the negotiations might be concluded at the Council or, at least, the range of problems significantly narrowed before the European Council at the end of March. The Government are fully conscious of the importance for Ireland of a successful outcome to these negotiations. We hope that we will have the support of all sides of the House in pursuing our determined efforts to secure a positive outcome on behalf of the Irish fish, and fish processing, industry.

We must be realistic. For the sake of our fishing industry I would prefer if the Spanish fleet did not have access to the EC waters. However, many years ago the member states of the day came to the conclusion that they would welcome Spain's application for membership. One of the consequential results of that is the accession of Spain on certain terms and it is up to us to ensure that our end is kept up and that we get the best deal possible for our fishermen. There are bottom lines for us in these negotiations. They are a matter for negotiation and are not to be used publicly at this time. However beyond those bottom lines we are not prepared to go.

Ba mhaith liom cuidiú leis an rún atá molta anseo ag an Teachta Ó Dálaigh is é sin go ndéanfaimid gach iarracht le cearta na hiascairí a chosaint ins an díospóireacht atá ar siúl i láthair na huaire maidir leis an iarratas atá againn ón Spáin agus ón Phortaingéil len a nglacadh mar bhaill den Comhphobail. Sílim go bhfuil deacrachtaí móra ag baint leis an rud seo ar fad agus níl sinne anseo ag iarraidh ar bhealach ar bith an scéal a bhreacadh síos ar bhealach a dhéanfadh dochar ar bith don díospóireacht atá ar siúl ag an Rialtas i láthair na huaire. Tuigimid go rí-mhaith go mbaineann sé seo le saol eacnamaíochta na tíre ar fad agus go mór mhór le céard atá i ndán do hiascairí na tíre seo sna blianta atá romhainn.

Ní féidir bheith cinnte go mbeidh sé tairbheach má éirionn leis na Spáinnigh agus muintir na Portaingéile lán-ionadaíocht a fháil den CE agus ní féidir linn bheith sásta go mbeidh buntáisté ar bith feasta dúinne ó thaobh na hiascaireachta mar bhall den CE, agus dá bhrí sin táimid ar an dtaobh seo ag tabhairt lántacaíochta don Aire agus don Rialtas sna díospóireachtaí atá ar siúl acu i láthair na huaire ag iarraidh an chuid is fearr den mhargadh a fháil dúinn féin más féidir é.

On a point of order, could I ask if there is any reason why this is not being translated because, with all due respect to Members of the House and members of the press, we are trying to make a case on behalf of the fishermen and we hope that the opportunity would be provided to have this reported properly.

Tá sé ag teacht.

Mar a dúirt mé, má thagann na Spáinnigh anuas sa mhullach orainn is beag eile a bheas fágtha. Tá sé ag dul sách géar ar iascairí i láthair na huaire a slíbheatha a dhéanamh. Ní raibh cúrsaí iascaireachta riamh chomh dona is atá said anois. Ní theastaíonn uainn go mbeadh an scéal níos measa agus go mbeadh ar thuilleadh iascairí a gcuid bhád a cheangal suas gan deis a bheith acu dul amach agus maoin a fháil dóibh féin agus dá gclann agus cuidiú le saol eacnamaíochta na tíre seo le postanna a fháil don aos óg agus go mór mhór le cuidiú leis an chuid is boichte den tír thart ar chósta an iarthair agus an taobh ó dheas, an áit go bhfuil an chuid is mó den iascaireacht tábhachtach ar fad ann.

Our fishing industry is perhaps experiencing its leanest period ever since the foundation of the State. The rot began on our entry to the EC if not before then in that the then member states had already introduced the equal access clause which gave to member states a right to fish in waters to which up to then they had no access. In particular they were given the right to fish in our territorial waters with the result that they gained a tremendous advantage while our fishing industry which was only beginning to take off then was severely hampered and has never since had the opportunity of building up to the extent that might otherwise have been the case.

One can hardly blame the then members of the EC for having the foresight to gain some advantage for themselves but they left us in an impossible position because we had to accept a fait accompli in regard to the future of the industry. Consequently, we have been groping in the dark in respect of that industry ever since.

At that time, with the help of the then Government, the fishermen tried to gain the best advantage possible for themselves. While they gained some little advantage they were hampered to a great extent by the situation they were going into. Any Government in the future will find it extremely difficult to build the type of fishing industry that will benefit not only the industry but the economy.

When we joined the EC we were just beginning to make progress in terms of our fleet. We had developed a pattern of fishing which to some extent was lucrative for a certain number of fishermen. At that time the concentration was on herring fishing. Our fishermen depended totally on herring fishing and usually they managed quite easily to meet the repayments on their investment especially when the herring season was good. The other areas of fishing were by no means as lucrative. There was a very tight kind of arrangement whereby the situation was fine so long as the herring season was good but then matters changed and the markets for herring were lost. Herring did not appear to have the same value on European markets and the fishermen did not seem to be capable of diversifying into other types of fishing. Very little progress has been made by our fishermen since the herring fishing was lost. Some have been successful in mackerel fishing or in fishing for other types of fish but they have not enjoyed the kind of profits that were gleaned from herring fishing. It is strange that herring sell for about £8 per box compared with £20 per box for dogfish, a species that up to some time ago would have been thrown overboard. The same applies to crab. In the past few years inshore fishermen made most money on these two species so that is a rather strange turnabout in the industry.

Another factor that hindered the fishing industry was the lack of any co-ordinated approach to the whole future of the industry. I maintain that BIM's brief was far too limited. As I said here last week they were no more than a lending agency. For instance the board had no say in harbour development and very little say in the matter of processing. They had no say either, up to a short time ago, in the training of fishermen. That is why it was rather extravagant to describe the board as a development agency. Their only say in development was in making money for boats available to selected fishermen.

There should have been a co-ordinated approach encompassing harbour development, fishing fleets and processing. In this way the industry would have made much more progress and those who invested in the industry would have had better returns and could have had more confidence in themselves. The sad position at the moment is that where the heaviest investment is in boats, these boats are not making money. The only area where a reasonable livlelihood can be got is with the smaller boats under 50 feet and the very large boats over 120 feet. Of course, along with the fact that our development has not gone as we would have wished, we had to face the plundering of our stocks by EC member states. We are all aware that a modern fishing boat is equipped in a manner which makes it possible for it to take out very large catches. One can say literally that the fish has no escape. The uncontrolled fishing of our waters by these huge ships makes it almost impossible for a little fleet like ours to compete. We can see from the number of boats that are being caught by our small protection fleet ample evidence of what I have been talking about.

We have seen a gradual increase in State investment in our fishing industry over the years. We put something like £27 million into the industry in 1983 and £19 million of that went towards the fishing fleet. When we talk of the fishing fleet we also have to talk of the work that was provided on land, the boatyards and so on. All of these have more or less gone by the wayside, and that is another indication of how serious the position in our fishing industry at the moment is. The increases in oil charges created one terrible headache for our fishermen. They have never really recovered fully from the terrible increases that were introduced as a result of that.

The time has come when we must have some major onslaught on the whole future of the industry. I have said here in this House on many occasions that we have no exploratory fishing, no research, no real planning for our industry by comparison with what happens in other countries. Unless we have a planned approach to the future of the industry, then I see no hope at all of our getting anywhere in the future.

Against that background we must now consider the serious consequences facing our fishermen with the possibility of the Spanish and Portuguese entering our waters. We have approximately 13,000 fishermen employed and 40 per cent of those are part-time fishermen. If the 17,000 plus Spanish boats along with the Portuguese fleet gain entry, then I can see nothing but our harbours littered with rotten hulks. I cannot see that we will be in any position to have any fishing fleet for the future if that is allowed to happen. I understand that their fleet would be approximately 70 per cent of the EC total fleet. That is really frightening. I do not see how we can hope or have any chance to overcome that if the Spaniards are allowed in here or, let us say, given free entry.

As I have said, it is not enough for us to shout, "out, out, out", We must stand on our own feet and look at fishing as one of our greatest natural resources and try to develop it to the full. BIM with Údarás na Gaeltachta, the IDA and CTT should co-ordinate their efforts to get the best possible advantage for this industry. We need better and bigger boats and highly skilled and determined fishermen. We must organise so that we can get the maximum added value from our landings. We must streamline the various ancillary services to give more efficiency on shore.

Recently the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs outlined the number of foreign boats that have been caught fishing illegally. What would the position be if we had the full 17,000 out there? I hate to think how we would handle that situation. We must encourage our fishermen to have a sense of pride in themselves and to have no inferiority complex. While we are at a terrible disadvantage when we try to compete with our EC colleagues and neighbours, at the same time we have a duty to equip our fishermen so that they can go out there and get their own share of what is available to them. At the moment we have only six boats in our fleet out of our 1,600 boats that are in a position to go out and compete with the foreigners. We on this side of the House will give every support we can to the Government to gain the best advantage possible for our fishermen. It is not a political matter. The consequences for us are far too serious, and everybody with an interest in the future of the industry and the country must try to ensure that the best possible advantage is gained for us. We have this motion down for discussion first of all to let our own people see what we are fighting for and, secondly, to let our EC partners, the Spanish and others realise that we are at one in our aims on this issue.

Debate adjourned.
The Dáil adjourned at 8.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 6 March 1985.
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