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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 26 Jun 1985

Vol. 359 No. 10

Adjournment Debate. - Non-Payment of TV Licence.

Ba mhaith liom ar dtús, a Cheann Comhairle, mo bhuíochas a ghlacadh leatsa as ucht cead a thabhairt dom an cheist seo a ardú. In deference to the Minister of State I will continue the remainder of my remarks in English. While it is nice to see my colleague, the Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Deputy Nuala Fennell here, it is sad that the Minister for Justice — who professes such a deep interest in the national language and culture, is not here himself.

The main purpose of my raising this matter on the Adjournment this evening is to explain to the Minister, through the Minister of State, why I feel the Minister should use the discretionary powers he has to release this prisoner. I propose to deal with that matter in the following ways: first, to develop the reason he is in prison, the cost to the State involved, the prison conditions within which he is residing at present and to talk about the prisoner himself.

If we talk about the reason for his imprisonment, it is purely on a point of principle. While none of us can condone the breaking of the law in this country under any circumstances, this Government have certainly brought the laws in regard to broadcasting into disrepute by presiding over a sad situation in relation to illegal broadcasting for a very long time now.

Mr. Ó Baoill, one might say, got a number of opportunities of paying the fine which was imposed on him at a court in my constituency in 1984. The reason for his continuing not to pay the fine was that he was mistakenly led to believe, from The Irish Times of 25 February 1985 that the present Minister for Communications was going to introduce major reforms in the area of television broadcasting, in particular, in relation to the culture and the language. That was a statement made by the Minister for Communications in which he said that some of the influences which now threaten our cultural identity were of more dubious value. He went on to talk about the influences being popularised by the mass media, a kind of a bland, undifferentiated mid-Atlantic mass culture, as he called it. Mr. Ó Baoill did not pay his fine because he believed that the pledge by the Minister for Communications, which included the words “we must be on our guard to ensure that the improvements which I have outlined are used to heighten and improve our cultural inheritance rather than swamp it”, would be carried out; hence his reason for not paying the fine.

All of us in this House have agreed for many years that there is a point of principle in relation to the proportion of Irish language programmes on our national media. Section 17 of the Broadcasting Act of 1960 outlines the statutory duties of RTE regarding the Irish language and I quote:

In performing its functions, the Authority shall bear constantly in mind the national aims of restoring the Irish language and preserving and developing the national culture and shall endeavour to promote the attainment of those aims.

I would suggest that it might be more appropriate to take the national television station to the courts rather than an individual who is trying to bring up his children through the medium of Irish in the heartland of the Gaeltacht.

I said I would outline the cost to the State of this man's imprisonment. Today a taxi was hired, with taxpayers' money to go from Galway city to this prisoner's home in Connemara to take himself and a local garda all the way to Dublin, to Mountjoy, to deposit the prisoner there. The taxi then returned — at a further cost to the State — to Galway city and delivered the garda to his home in Connemara. The charge to the State for such a service is approximately 50p per mile. They stopped for a meal and I presume that was paid for with taxpayer's money. I am sure all this cost much more than the fine imposed and would pay for many television licences. I wonder if that cost to the State is warranted.

There seems to be some confusion about the prison sentence. When I spoke to the prisoner this evening in Mountjoy he said that his recollection was that he had been fined or sentenced to one month in jail, whereas the warrant states two months in jail. Perhaps the Minister would confirm the actual term of imprisonment imposed.

The prisoner is the personnel director of Údarás na Gaeltachta a semi-State body. He is a very hardworking person, a good husband, a loyal father who worked abroad for many years and came back here because he thought it was the best country in which to raise his family. The prisoner worked abroad for a number of years and then worked in this city, but he then decided that this city did not bring him back to his cultural roots. He felt he should uproot his family once again and take them to the heartland of the Gaeltacht.

He has lived and worked there for many years and now the Irish language is the first official language of his home. He is one of the success stories in the Gaeltacht. We have heard for many years of people coming into the Gaeltacht from other areas. They do not speak Irish and they anglicize the Gaeltacht. Here is a success story — a man who did not have Irish, who worked abroad and came home to work. In his capacity as personnel manager for Údarás na Gaeltachta he has been writing for many years to RTE on behalf of the organisation since his first letter on 24 July 1981 asking for an increase in the percentage of Irish programmes on that medium. He had to write on three occasions before he finally got a reply from that body.

In relation to the conditions in Mountjoy, I am not sure when the Minister for Justice last visited Mountjoy, but my information is that it was on 19 May 1983. Conditions cannot have improved in that period, especially having regard to the level of crime at the moment. Certainly the conditions did not impress me today. To put a person who is not a criminal, who has not been involved in hard core crime, into Mountjoy prison is a tragedy. The man was two hours in prison when I visited him today. During that time his watch had been conficated and he had been kept in an underground waiting room with a number of other prisoners. He had had no contact with anybody during that time. A genuine hardworking man standing on a point of principle should not in any circumstances be treated like a hardened criminal.

I am sure the Minister of State will agree with me there. The Minister has the discretionary power and he has used it in the past. As Minister for Justice we have all found him approachable and that is the main reason that I put the prisoner's point of view tonight. It is important when our prisons are bursting at the seams, when hard core criminals involved in extreme violence can be released from prison within days of their sentence beginning, that somebody of the calibre of this man should not be in Mountjoy jail. I ask the Minister of State to pass on my comments to the Minister tonight or tomorrow morning and hopefully the Minister will make a decision in the prisoner's favour by tomorrow.

The Minister for Justice is not here tonight due to a family bereavement.

In relation to the statement made by the Deputy that offenders whom she describes as "hardened criminals" are released within days of commencement of their sentence, that statement is not correct unless, of course, the sentence imposed was a short one which would be unlikely in the case of hardened criminals. The vast majority of those offenders serve their full sentence and get only remission to which they are statutorily entitled. Some offenders may be granted temporary release either as part of a prerelease programme for the offender or subject to conditions.

In the present case, it appears the offender was convicted on 13 December 1983 of not having a television licence. I say "appears" because the Minister for Justice became aware of this case only this afternoon. Indeed, the offender arrived in Mountjoy at about 3 o'clock this evening. It has not been possible at such short notice to get full details of the background to this case. This prisoner would not have been treated differently from any other prisoner entering Mountjoy.

To get further details of the background to this case would have meant getting agencies, not all of whom are under the control of the Minister, to drop tasks on which they are working and rush in reports on this case. It would be quite unreasonable to expect the Minister to do that. The court imposed a fine of £50 or, alternatively, a prison sentence of two months. As regards the conviction and the penalty, those are matters properly within the competence of the court and it would be inappropriate for the Minister to comment on them. I am, however, somewhat intrigued by the implication in the Deputy's statement that to break the law on what she describes as a matter of principle is, somehow, different from other breaches of the law.

This offender deliberately chose not to purchase a television licence. The court gave him the option of paying a fine. He did not take that option. Consequently he was arrested this morning — over 18 months after the fine was imposed — and arrived in Mountjoy prison this afternoon. On the face of it, this offender has deliberately taken the course he has chosen with all the implications that has for this House. It is, of course, open to any Deputy to approach the Minister in relation to any individual prisoner but I see no aspect of this case which warrants the type of instant reaction which the Deputy seems to be asking the Minister to take.

While the Minister for Justice has statutory power to release prisoners, it is a power which successive Ministers have exercised sparingly and certainly not a power which should be freely exercised to the effect that it sets at nought a decision of a court. If the courts send somebody to prison it is the duty of the prison authorities to receive that prisoner. Imprisonment is, in practical terms, the ultimate sanction in this country and, as such, is the sanction that ensures that the law is obeyed. For that reason alone it is necessary, regardless of cost, to uphold that sanction, particularly in cases where people deliberately decide not to abide by the law.

Furthermore, it is the duty of the prison authorities to retain a prisoner for as long as the Minister considers appropriate following careful consideration of each case. It is totally unreasonable to expect the Minister to give any assessment of the present case, bearing in mind that the prisoner was committed this evening. The Minister will consider this case in the normal way. Finally, I might emphasise that if this prisoner wishes to be released immediately he can achieve that himself, or indeed anybody else on his behalf, by simply paying the £50 fine to the governor of the prison.

Will the Minister confirm that the cost to the State of taking this prisoner to Mountjoy and returning the garda back to my constituency is true?

At this point I cannot give the Deputy exact information on the cost.

Could she confirm to the House that the prisoner and a member of the Garda Síochána were transported by taxi today to Mountjoy?

I am afraid that that is a matter for the Garda and for the Minister for Justice.

Can she confirm that that happened? I understand that the Department have been denying it all afternoon.

I am not in a position to——

I want to place it on record that that is a fact.

The Deputy has done that.

The Dáil adjourned at 11.52 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 27 June 1985.

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