Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 20 Jun 1990

Vol. 400 No. 2

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take Nos. 6, 7, 15, 16, 17 and 4. It is also proposed, subject to the agreement of the House, that:—

(1) Business shall be interrupted at 12.00 midnight.

(2) The sitting shall be suspended today from 6.30 p.m. to 7.00 p.m.

(3) The Committee Stage of No. 16 shall be taken at 3.45 p.m.

(4) The Committee and Remaining Stages of No. 17 shall be taken at 10.00 p.m. and the proceedings thereon, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 11.00 p.m. by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only amendments set down by the Minister for Finance.

(5) No. 4 shall be taken at the conclusion of No. 17.

Private Members' Business shall be No. 28.

Mr. Dukes

I oppose the interruption of business at 12.00 midnight on the basis that the Government should reorder today and Second Stage of the Broadcasting Bill so that Bill, now utterly changed from the one which was originally brought into this House, can be properly and democratically debated before we go on to Committee Stage. I oppose, therefore, the interruption of business at 12.00 o'clock tonight.

Mr. Spring

Yesterday you will recall that I brought to your attention my concern about the manner in which business was ordered. This morning I want to bring it to your attention that I am not particularly pleased about what has happened today. At 10.15 a.m. an Order of Business was delivered to our Whip's office and when we came into the House a second Order of Business was delivered, changed from the first. Can the Taoiseach try to ensure that the Order of Business as delivered in the first instance is the Order of Business for the day?

Proinsias De Rossa

I am opposing the arrangements for the taking of today's business, specifically the arrangement relating to No. 16, the Broadcasting Bill. The Bill which is being brought forward today for Committee Stage debate has no relationship to the Bill we debated on Second Stage. The Bill should be withdrawn and the new Bill which the Minister seeks to introduce should be reordered for Second Stage. It is ridiculous that we are being treated in this way by the Minister and the Government.

An Ceann Comhairle

There is an objection to the proposal that business shall be interrupted at 12.00 midnight and an objection to the taking of the Committee Stage of No. 16 at 3.45 p.m. I am putting the question in relation to the first proposal.

Question put: "That business shall be interrupted at 12.00 midnight."

The Dáil divided: Tá, 76; Níl, 69.

Tá

• Ahern, Bertie.
• Ahern, Dermot.
• Ahern, Michael.
• Andrews, David.
• Aylward, Liam.
• Barrett, Michael.
• Brady, Gerard.
• Brady, Vincent.
• Brennan, Mattie.
• Briscoe, Ben.
• Browne, John (Wexford).
• Burke, Raphael P.
• Calleary, Seán.
• Callely, Ivor.
• Clohessy, Peadar.
• Collins, Gerard.
• Connolly, Ger.
• Coughlan, Mary Theresa.
• Cowen, Brian.
• Cullimore, Séamus.
• Daly, Brendan.
• Davern, Noel.
• Dempsey, Noel.
• Dennehy, John.
• de Valera, Síle.
• Ellis, John.
• Fahey, Jackie.
• Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.
• Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
• Flood, Chris.
• Flynn, Pádraig.
• Foxe, Tom.
• Gallagher, Pat the Cope.
• Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
• Harney, Mary.
• Haughey, Charles J.
• Hillery, Brian.
• Hilliard, Colm.
• Hyland, Liam.
• Jacob, Joe.
• Kelly, Laurence.
• Kenneally, Brendan.
• Kirk, Séamus.
• Kitt, Michael P.
• Kitt, Tom.
• Lawlor, Liam.
• Lenihan, Brian.
• Leonard, Jimmy.
• Lyons, Denis.
• Martin, Micheál.
• McCreevy, Charlie.
• McDaid, Jim.
• McEllistrim, Tom.
• Molloy, Robert.
• Morley, P.J.
• Nolan, M.J.
• Noonan, Michael J.
• (Limerick West).
• O'Connell, John.
• O'Dea, Willie.
• O'Donoghue, John.
• O'Hanlon, Rory.
• O'Keeffe, Ned.
• O'Leary, John.
• O'Toole, Martin Joe.
• Power, Seán.
• Quill, Máirín.
• Reynolds, Albert.
• Roche, Dick.
• Smith, Michael.
• Stafford, John.
• Tunney, Jim.
• Wallace, Dan.
• Wallace, Mary.
• Walsh, Joe.
• Woods, Michael.
• Wyse, Pearse.

Níl

• Ahearn, Therese.
• Barnes, Monica.
• Barry, Peter.
• Belton, Louis J.
• Boylan, Andrew.
• Bradford, Paul.
• Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
• Bruton, John.
• Bruton, Richard.
• Byrne, Eric.
• Carey, Donal.
• Connaughton, Paul.
• Connor, John.
• Cotter, Bill.
• Creed, Michael.
• Crowley, Frank.
• Currie, Austin.
• D'Arcy, Michael.
• Higgins, Michael D.
• Hogan, Philip.
• Howlin, Brendan.
• Kavanagh, Liam.
• Kemmy, Jim.
• Kenny, Enda.
• McCartan, Pat.
• McCormack, Pádraic.
• McGahon, Brendan.
• McGinley, Dinny.
• Mac Giolla, Tomás.
• McGrath, Paul.
• Mitchell, Jim.
• Moynihan, Michael.
• Nealon, Ted.
• Noonan, Michael.
• (Limerick East).
• Deasy, Austin.
• Deenihan, Jimmy.
• De Rossa, Proinsias.
• Doyle, Joe.
• Dukes, Alan.
• Durkan, Bernard.
• Enright, Thomas W.
• Farrelly, John V.
• Fennell, Nuala.
• Ferris, Michael.
• Finucane, Michael.
• Flaherty, Mary.
• Flanagan, Charles.
• Garland, Roger.
• Gilmore, Eamon.
• Gregory, Tony.
• Harte, Paddy.
• Higgins, Jim.
• O'Keeffe, Jim.
• O'Shea, Brian.
• O'Sullivan, Gerry.
• O'Sullivan, Toddy.
• Owen, Nora.
• Quinn, Ruairí.
• Rabbitte, Pat.
• Ryan, Seán.
• Shatter, Alan.
• Sheehan, Patrick J.
• Sherlock, Joe.
• Spring, Dick.
• Stagg, Emmet.
• Taylor, Mervyn.
• Taylor-Quinn, Madeleine.
• Timmins, Godfrey.
• Yates, Ivan.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies V. Brady and Clohessy; Níl, Deputies J. Higgins and Howlin.

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

I now come to item No. 2. I observe that item No. 3, the Committee Stage of No. 16, is objected to. I shall be putting the question later. The next question is that the sitting be suspended today from 6.30 p.m. to 7 p.m. Is that agreed? Agreed. Is it agreed that the Committee Stage of No. 16 shall be taken at 3.45 p.m.?

Proinsias De Rossa

No.

Question put: "That the Committee Stage of No. 16 be taken at 3.45 p.m."

The Dáil divided: Tá, 76; Níl, 69.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies V. Brady and Clohessy; Níl, Deputies McCartan and Byrne.

Níl

• Ahearn, Therese.
• Barnes, Monica.
• Barry, Peter.
• Belton, Louis J.
• Boylan, Andrew.
• Bradford, Paul.
• Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
• Bruton, John.
• Bruton, Richard.
• Byrne, Eric.
• Carey, Donal.
• Connaughton, Paul.
• Connor, John.
• Cotter, Bill.
• Creed, Michael.
• Crowley, Frank.
• Currie, Austin.
• D'Arcy, Michael.
• Deasy, Austin.
• Deenihan, Jimmy.
• De Rossa, Proinsias.
• Doyle, Joe.
• Dukes, Alan.
• Durkan, Bernard.
• Enright, Thomas W.
• Farrelly, John V.
• Fennell, Nuala.
• Ferris, Michael.
• Finucane, Michael.
• Flaherty, Mary.
• Flanagan, Charles.
• Gilmore, Eamon.
• Gregory, Tony.
• Harte, Paddy.
• Higgins, Jim.
• Higgins, Michael D.
• Hogan, Philip.
• Howlin, Brendan.
• Kavanagh, Liam.
• Kemmy, Jim.
• Kenny, Enda.
• Lowry, Michael.
• McCartan, Pat.
• McCormack, Pádraic.
• McGahon, Brendan.
• McGinley, Dinny.
• Mac Giolla, Tomás.
• McGrath, Paul.
• Mitchell, Jim.
• Moynihan, Michael.
• Nealon, Ted.
• Noonan, Michael.
• (Limerick East).
• O'Keeffe, Jim.
• O'Shea, Brian.
• O'Sullivan, Gerry.
• O'Sullivan, Toddy.
• Owen, Nora.
• Quinn, Ruairí.
• Rabbitte, Pat.
• Ryan, Seán.
• Shatter, Alan.
• Sheehan, Patrick J.
• Sherlock, Joe.
• Spring, Dick.
• Stagg, Emmet.
• Taylor, Mervyn.
• Taylor-Quinn, Madeleine.
• Timmins, Godfrey.
• Yates, Ivan.

Question declared carried.

T&aacute

Ahern, Bertie.Ahern, Dermot.Ahern, Michael.Andrews, David.Aylward, Liam.Barrett, Michael.Brady, Gerard.Brady, Vincent.Brennan, Mattie.Briscoe, Ben.Browne, John (Wexford).Burke, Raphael P.Calleary, Seán.Callely, Ivor.Clohessy, Peadar.Collins, Gerard.Connolly, Ger.Coughlan, Mary Theresa.Cowen, Brian.Cullimore, Séamus.Daly, Brendan.Davern, Noel.Dempsey, Noel.Dennehy, John.de Valera, Síle.Ellis, John.Fahey, Jackie.Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.Fitzpatrick, Dermot.Flood, Chris. O'Donoghue, John.O'Hanlon, Rory.O'Keeffe, Ned.O'Leary, John.O'Toole, Martin Joe.Power, Seán.Quill, Máirín.Reynolds, Albert.

Flynn, Pádraig.Foxe, Tom.Gallagher, Pat the Cope.Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.Harney, Mary.Haughey, Charles J.Hillery, Brian.Hilliard, Colm.Hyland, Liam.Jacob, Joe.Kelly, Laurence.Kenneally, Brendan.Kirk, Séamus.Kitt, Michael P.Kitt, Tom.Lawlor, Liam.Lenihan, Brian.Leonard, Jimmy.Lyons, Denis.Martin, Micheál.McCreevy, Charlie.McDaid, Jim.McEllistrim, Tom.Molloy, Robert.Morley, P.J.Nolan, M.J.Noonan, Michael J.(Limerick West).O'Connell, John.O'Dea, Willie. Roche, Dick.Smith, Michael.Stafford, John.Tunney, Jim.Wallace, Dan.Wallace, Mary.Walsh, Joe.Woods, Michael.Wyse, Pearse.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have two more proposals in respect of the Order of Business. Is the proposal for dealing with item No. 17 agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with item No. 4 agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Dukes

I should like to ask for the guidance of the Chair. I know that there are ways that the Chair has for dealing with Deputies and Ministers who mislead the House but I should like to know if there are any ways the House can have for dealing with Ministers who mislead the public as, for example, in the case of the Government Whip this morning who told the most outrageous untruths on an RTE programme to the extent that he totally distorted the situation. For the record it should be known that the Government looked for 13 pairs last Friday——

An Ceann Comhairle

Something that was heard on radio this morning ought not to be the subject matter of debate now.

Mr. Dukes

——and were told that no more than ten would be available. They looked for 15 on Monday and were told that only ten would be available. I would like to put it on the record that my definition of Ministers abroad on official business does not include Minister of State Fahey leaving Dublin on a Tuesday morning to be at a football match at Palermo on a Thursday.

An Ceann Comhairle

This is a flagrant violation of the Order of Business.

Mr. Dukes

This is the incompetence of the Government, the incompetence of the Whip and an indication of the lengths they are prepared to go to try to deceive.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Dukes must desist.

Mr. Spring

In relation to remarks made by the Minister for Industry and Commerce earlier this week, particularly in relation to the fact that some informal discussions had taken place at Cabinet level in relation to the necessity for a divorce referendum, I should like to ask the Taoiseach if there will be a Government statement on this matter or if there will be clarification.

An Ceann Comhairle

That matter does not arise now.

Mr. Dukes

The Taoiseach is looking for a judicial separation; he will get a judge of the High Court to sort it out.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Spring will have to pursue that in another and more appropriate way.

Mr. Spring

I do not believe I have any other fora in which to pursue it. Will the Taoiseach make a comment, as Leader of the Government, in relation to remarks made by the Minister for Industry and Commerce?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair has ruled on the matter.

Mr. Spring

Will you allow the Taoiseach to reply?

An Ceann Comhairle

I have ruled on the matter and it is clearly not one for the Order of Business.

Mr. Spring

Will you accept that it is a very important and urgent matter?

An Ceann Comhairle

Yes, but there are other ways of dealing with it.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

I should like to raise on the Adjournment the failure of the Government to explain their lack of response to the request last year from the West German authorities for the extradition of Donna Maguire.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will be in touch with the Deputy concerning that matter.

Mr. Connor

I wish to raise on the Adjournment with the Minister for Finance, or his Minister of State, the reported destruction of archaeological sites throughout the country, which was the subject of my Question No. 38 yesterday.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. Howlin

I seek your permission to raise on the Adjournment the failure of the Minister for Social Welfare to provide the full range of dental treatment entitlements to insured workers in County Wexford.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. Garland

With your permission, I again seek to raise the incidents in Castlebar. The Labour Party and The Workers' Party also wish to raise this matter.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am aware of the Deputy's interest in the matter and I will communicate with him.

Mr. D'Arcy

I wish to raise on the Adjournment the imminent collapse of the sheep industry. I requested this debate yesterday and I ask you to give it your personal attention as it is a very grave national issue.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. Browne

(Carlow-Kilkenny): I should like to raise on the Adjournment the position of Fenniscourt Lock on the River Barrow where the public have been deprived of a traditional long life practice of entering with their boats. It has now been locked and an inaccurate reply was given to my question on this matter yesterday.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. O'Shea

Will the Taoiseach give an assurance to the House that the proposed amending Bill to transfer financial responsibility for courthouses from local authorities to the Exchequer will be circulated and passed into law in time for next year's local authority estimates meetings?

An Ceann Comhairle

Does this appertain to legislation?

Mr. O'Shea

Yes.

The Taoiseach

The legislation is planned — I am not sure whether it has been promised in the House — and it will be proceeded with in the normal way.

Mr. Carey

I wish to make another attempt to raise on the Adjournment the case of an in transit refugee who was jailed without trial, by the Minister for Justice, in Limerick jail and who has been there since 10 May.

Mr. Quinn

He is waiting for the Broadcasting Bill.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am aware of the Deputy's interest in that matter and I will be in touch with him.

Mr. Kenny

I should like to raise on the Adjournment the environmental consequences arising from the Dundrum bypass in south County Dublin.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

I trust we are not dealing with flippant matters on the Order of Business. I will look into the matter.

Mr. Sherlock

I seek your permission to raise on the Adjournment the Gael Scoileanna at Mallow and Fermoy with particular reference to Gaelscoil Íde, Fermoy, whose pupils have been forced to vacate the premises they occupied as a result of a directive from the Department of Education to County Cork VEC.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy.