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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 31 Oct 1990

Vol. 402 No. 3

Private Members' Business. - Powers of President: Motion (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That Dáil Éireann calls on the Government to bring forward legislation required to: establish an Overseas Development Aid Commission chaired by the President; give the President a consultative role in judicial appointments; appoint a permanent Judicial Commission chaired by the President; appoint an Environmental Council chaired by the President; appoint a National Sports and Recreation Council chaired by the President; and institute a Presidential Merit Awards Scheme.
—(Deputy Dukes.)

The last evening we were discussing this motion which calls on the Government to bring forward legislation to what would effectively extend the role of the Presidency, I had been speaking about the atmosphere and the context in which that resolution had been put forward. I had indicated that in so far as the motion itself and the amendments to it proposed to address what had become a matter of comment, it is worthy of consideration. Reading the motion and the amendments that have been placed to it, there is perhaps greater merit in the amendment tabled by The Workers' Party in the names of Deputies Proinsias De Rossa, Tomás Mac Giolla and others in so far as it enables some of the difficulties of implementation which might be seen in relation to the motion of establishing an overseas development aid commission chaired by the President, and many of the specific proposals, some of which are meritorious in themselves, to be examined in terms of their feasibility and desirability.

In relation to the functions addressed, an overseas development aid commission, for example, is something that could more accurately be located within the framework of a parliament. I very much regretted losing the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Overseas Development Aid and Co-Operation because it had made many positive proposals which were adopted. They discussed a charter for overseas workers and enabled them to serve abroad and to be reintegrated without loss of status or remuneration to the positions which they had left at home.

The question occurs to me whether, in the absence of an overseas development aid committee, the committee could be moved out of the parliament, and set up as a rather grand committee which would be chaired by the President of the day and which would neutralise the efficacy of those who are concerned about overseas development aid. The same argument could possibly be applied in relation to the notion of an environmental council and a sports and recreational council. I am not arguing against the intention to give a meaningful role to the Presidency; in my opening remarks I traced that role as it was envisaged in the 1937 Constitution, Bunreacht na hÉireann.

Indeed, in the debate in 1937, there was vigorous comment on what the President should do. The speech that strikes me, reading the 1937 volumes, was a significant and thoughtful one by the then Member, Mr. McCartin. There was also virulent opposition at times because it was suggested that Mr. de Valera would occupy the role and that it would be abused. It proved to be a false concern and what is more interesting in the 1937 debate is the manner in which Mr. de Valera was very upset — as I mentioned in my opening remarks — by the opposition directed at him, particularly by women. It is interesting to remember that the great opposition to the 1937 Constitution came from the women of the country because it changed the 1922 Constitution by deleting the words "without discrimination as to sex". Hence, the opposition from women was that they were losing their right to participate in the workforce and would be defined as having a suitable position in the home.

I will jump from 1937 right up to the present. Women may now look forward to something much more inspiring, the idea of the State and its symbolic head being a woman who is also a person of great achievement in terms of intellectual prowess, dignity and in terms of respresenting the ethical impulse of many people which is sometimes frustrated by the slowness of the legislative process and by bureaucracy itself. In all the other discussions, which are over, I tried to manage a separation between the campaign for the Presidency and what we discuss in this House. Mrs. Mary Robinson has a record of taking up unpopular causes which will, inevitably and politically, come. They may not alone be unpopular but may bring derision, contumely and dreadful vilification on the person who espouses them but which is necessary if you believe in equality and participation. The Presidency, even in its existing unelaborated form, will be well filled by a person of that distinction, combining a marvellous background of courage, ability and compassion. What is interesting is that these qualities are all in the same person. Many people have compassion and others have intellectual calibre but it is unique to have a person who combines them all.

In the debate on the 1937 Constitution one speaker suggested that the role of women in Ireland should be modelled on the Polish mother who had saved the Polish language and indeed Poland. After next week, young girls will be able to look to the symbolic head of their State and know — even as a role model — how inspiring it is that there is no post from which women will be excluded. That in itself is an inspiring concept.

Turning back to the precise detail of this motion, members of the Labour Party and I have indicated that we are very much in favour of having a very serious look at the nomination process for the Presidency. We are equally in favour of a commission which would be broadly based and which would look at the role of the Presidency and perhaps also address areas of ambiguity which have arisen between the role defined in 1937 and in 1990. Certainly there are procedures which are tightly defined within the realm of the Constitution and we will be well served by having somebody who is a distinguished constitutional lawyer to interpret them. As I said last week, there are other procedures which lack the constitutional status but have become established by convention. A commission composed of all interests in this House and broadly from society, might look at these issues and then turn back to the rather precise functions which are indicated in the basic motion itself.

I am sympathetic to the proposers of the motion in their anxiety and I must praise them if, for nothing else, for listing a series of areas which perhaps should not have been neglected and which deserve our attention — overseas development aid, the environment, the importance of an independent judicial selection process, recreation and so on and the idea of an awards scheme. I am not confident that these objectives could more easily be achieved without a commission having met and I am somewhat apprehensive that the removal to the realm of the Presidency of some of the concerns might be seen as an excuse for inactivity on them within the Parliament which is the place where there is effective accountability.

In a curious way I am glad to be able to conclude. I hope that by addressing issues like this an atmosphere of calm and dignity will return to the present Presidential campaign and prevail until the people exercise what is their right, their choice, next week.

The provision for the Office of President in the 1937 Constitution demonstrated more than anything else the demise of the British Crown in Irish affairs. The creation of the post bears a remarkable resemblance to the role and powers of the president in the Weimar Republic under their constitution of 1919.

The disturbance in the public gallery must cease.

The powers of the Crown were taken over by the President so that to a large extent he became and is a symbol of our sovereignty, independence and democracy. The President evolved with the Constitution but has been cast as its guardian in popular belief. On this occasion it must be stressed that the President is not in fact the guardian of the Constitution despite considerable belief to the contrary. The President is subject to the same Constitution but hyperbole has even suggested that he is its enforcer. He is not. However, he does take precedence over all others. This, taken together with his functions and powers, makes him a republic's answer to a latter day monarchy.

The principal powers of the President are well known. He may refuse to dissolve the Dáil on the advice of a Taoiseach who has ceased to retain majority support. The exact definition of this is not contained in the Constitution nor to the best of my knowledge do we have any case law from the Supreme Court or any other court as to what precisely this means. It is not stated specifically in the Constitution that if the Taoiseach is defeated on a budgetary matter, he has ceased to retain the majority support of the Dáil nor is it stated specifically in the Constitution that if the Taoiseach loses a vote of confidence he has ceased to retain the support of the majority of the Dáil but one can only assume that this would be the position taking it to its logical conclusion.

The President may refer a Bill to the Supreme Court. This power has been exercised by a number of Presidents. It is important to point out that any additional powers conferred by the Oireachtas on a President may only be exercised on the advice of the Government. One may well ask why. It would appear that the reason is that there can be only one authority in a democracy. To have two authorities would be to have a conflict in relation to the Executive or Legislature and that would not be desirable. It is clearly prohibited under the Irish Constitution. That is why the President's powers are so restricted. The restrictions placed on the President are placed there to ensure that the Taoiseach of the day and the Government, alone with the Legislature, have the power to pass laws. The President's ceremonial role in relation to signing Bills into law is there as a recognition of his position as head of State.

It is interesting to reflect in the light of a motion such as this that the most contentious aspects of the draft constitution when debated in this House in May and June of 1937 actually referred to the powers of the President. Many people then on the Opposition benches feared that a dictatorship would evolve. That fear gained a certain amount of credibility, but the experience since 1937 has clearly indicated that this is not the position, and that is why the powers of the President are so restricted under the 1937 Constitution.

It was outlined to the House last week by the Minister for the Environment that the conferring of additional powers, as are specified in the motion on the President, would invariably and inevitably result in a conflict between the Executive on the one hand and the President and his primacy in relation to matters ceremonial for the most part, on the other.

It has generally been felt that the role of the President has in some way been demeaned by the fact that we have not had a Presidential election for 17 years. It should be recalled that there was not a Presidential election in 1938, in 1952, in 1974, in 1976 nor in 1983. Therefore the most of the remaining powers given to the President under the 1937 Constitution appear to be for the most part what one could describe as a rubber stamp exercise — the appointment of a Taoiseach on the nomination of the Dáil, the appointment of the Government on the Taoiseach's nomination, the right to accept the resignation of a member of Government or terminate his appointment on the Taoiseach's advice and the right to summon and dissolve the Dáil on the Taoiseach's advice although the dissolution is of course within his absolute discretion. The President can convene meetings of either House of the Oireachtas after consultations with the Council of State. The President can sign Bills into law and he is the supreme commander of the Defence Forces. The President has of course rights in relation to pardon or commuting or remitting a punishment in the criminal law area. The President may communicate with the Houses of the Oireachtas and may give a message to the nation provided it is approved by the Government. Essentially the President has two powers, the power to dissolve the Dáil and to refer Bills to the Supreme Court following consultation.

As a Fianna Fáil backbencher speaking about the role of the President tonight, I feel constrained to say that this is a particularly sad time. In speaking about the role of the President it would be remiss of me, as other speakers appear to have used this platform to boost their own candidates, if I did not at this stage pay tribute to Deputy Brian Lenihan and say that no person is more fitting for the role of President. It is true that the Taoiseach did what he had to do, having no option left, and the Opposition benches have obtained their pound of flesh. However, I do not think it is a matter of pride for Opposition Parties, that it is a matter to boast about or that it is a matter on which they could conceivably seek support from the Irish people.

Deputy Brian Lenihan is the best candidate in this Presidential election. He has gone through the mill. He has served for 33 years in Irish public life. He has served in seven different Governments and in nine different Departments as a member of the Cabinet. He has been Tánaiste and, in addition, he is the Presidential candidate for the Fianna Fáil Party.

I find it interesting, to put it at its mildest, to observe the concern being expressed by Opposition parties for the Presidency. The motion before us calls for the House to confer additional functions and powers on the President. In recent days Opposition parties have also agonised over the suitability or otherwise of the former Tánaiste, Deputy Brian Lenihan, for this high office. In view of all of this laudable concern it would be appropriate at this stage for me to remind the House and the electorate of precisely how a Government, comprised of Fine Gael and Labour, treated the former President Cearbhail Ó Dálaigh who was the immediate predecessor of the present incumbent.

In October 1976 the then Minister for Defence, Patrick Donegan, made a statement to members of the Defence Forces in Mullingar in which he described the President as "a thundering disgrace". The reason he gave for this extraordinary and deeply damaging statement was that the President had exercised his powers under Article 26 of the Constitution by referring to the Supreme Court a Bill which had been passed by the Oireachtas. In effect, what was happening was that the Minister for Defence was engaging in head on combat with the President of the State in relation to what was his discretionary powers, and one of the very few which he had. The fact that the offensive remark was made to members of the Defence Forces about their Commander-in-Chief merely emphasised the enormity of the insult. On 21 October 1976 a motion was debated by this House calling on the Minister to resign. The Fine Gael and Labour Parties rallied to a man behind the Minister and the motion was defeated.

What manner of man was this President who had been so grossly insulted for carrying out his duties as he, a renowned Constitutional lawyer, saw fit? During the course of the debate John Kelly, then Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach and himself an acknowledged expert on the Constitution, said and I quote:

The President, a distinguished lawyer, presided over the Supreme Court during a brilliant period. He presided over it in a series of judgments which revolutionised Irish constitutional jurisprudence ... his standing as a judge and his absolute integrity and independence are utterly beyond question.

In spite of these very apt words the result was as I have stated. The only person to resign, the only person forced out, was the President himself and the State was robbed of one of its most distinguished servants. Let those who would gloat over their pound of flesh tonight recall that night. The President took this drastic action because of his deep concern for the office he held and his belief that he would find it intolerable to serve side by side with that particular Government.

In the circumstances I am surprised that Fine Gael and Labour have engaged in such a vicious assault on a man's integrity over the last eight or nine days. This unwarranted attack and unceasing barrage on this man's integrity was directed against a man who had served the Irish people for 33 long years, most of them at the highest level of Government. No man or woman in this House can point a finger at the former Tánaiste and say that, during the period he served in this Ministry or that, or served on the Opposition benches, he had anything but the greatest integrity. It is on this basis that the former Tánaiste, Deputy Brian Lenihan, now presents himself before the Irish people and he does so with his integrity and honour intact and with a breadth of experience that no other candidate in this election could even dream to boast about.

I am not going to get involved in personalising the Presidential election campaign or to say that either of the other two candidates is not a good candidate, but I do want to say that Deputy Brian Lenihan has a vast range of experience in Irish public life which has to be taken into account and that under no circumstances would this man denigrate the office of President. He is known internationally throughout the length and breadth of the European Community and in many other countries, by Heads of State and is widely respected. I do not believe we could have a finer ambassador for this State.

It is true to say that in this role a practical knowledge of working political life is desirable. Deputy Lenihan in his career over the past 33 years has exhibited the kind of strength of character and ability which the office of President demands. He will never be in conflict with the Government of the day. He knows and understands the role of President better than any other candidate in this election because he has seen political life over a long period.

Throughout the recent controversy all arguments and media representation zoned in on Deputy Lenihan. Nothing was said about remarks later denied by another candidate. There was no outcry in the media about that as Deputy Lenihan was hounded from pillar to post. Ultimately the Taoiseach, in order to avoid a general election which nobody wants, was left with no alternative. I am not going to pretend that this is not a very sad night for me. I think that most people involved in public life, regardless of their political persuasion, would have to admit that, throughout his political career, this was a man of impeccable character, and still is. That we all make mistakes in relation to issues over a period of time, is undeniable, but what cannot be denied is the humanity, integrity, ability, dedication and patriotism of this man who was such a good servant to this country. I believe that Deputy Lenihan can and will be of great service to the country. I believe that he will unquestionably carry out the role of President with geat distinction and ability.

Today's debate and the debate in the media over the past eight days politicised the Office of President more than ever in the history of this State. The Presidency was dragged to the front of every newspaper in the country and the President's role was in many ways demeaned by the unseemly squabble which took place and which was instigated by Fine Gael and Deputy Garret FitzGerald. There has been much talk about not politicising the Presidency and the functions of the President have been discussed in this Chamber, which is only right and proper, but the vilification of a candidate for the Office of President, and the hounding of a man who has declared himself to be a candidate has, more than anything else, since the 1937 Constitution was approved, brought the role of the President into political life. It is sad that that has occurred.

This is very sad because the Office of President is independent of the Legislature. That is what was intended and that is the way it should be. Some candidates for the Office have been portraying the Presidency as something it is not. The powers of the President are set out in the Constitution and the power to amend the Constitution is vested in the people only; nobody else has the right to change the Constitution. Undoubtedly, one President may be more expansive than another but the truth is that the President is constrained under the Constitution and there can only be one authority under the same Constitution.

The editorial in The Cork Examiner the day before yesterday contained statements on the role of the President. It was stated, for example, that the Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy O'Malley was a member of the Cabinet in 1982 who decided to make telephone calls to the President. That is absolutely untrue and, if you like, is comment gone mad. Fianna Fáil were in Opposition in 1982. The same editorial went on to state that it was definitely unconstitutional to make a telephone call to the President. However, the 1937 Constitution does not state that it is unconstitutional to make a telephone call to the President.

The exact role of the President in relation to the dissolution of the Dáil is defined. He has absolute discretion whether or not to dissolve the Dáil but his role, outside that bold statement, is not defined. It is not stated, for example, in the 1937 Constitution that the President may ring the Leader of the Opposition, or call him in, no more than the Leader of the Opposition may not call the President. The truth of the matter is that it is a fallacy to state that it is unconstitutional to make such a call. Therefore, one can only conjecture at the precise role of the President in relation to the dissolution of the Dáil. What is certain is that he can refuse to dissolve the Dáil or, alternatively, he can dissolve the Dáil. One would imagine that in the event of a President deciding not to dissolve the Dáil political activity would commence in this House and if some consensus could be arrived at between a number of Opposition parties and, perhaps, Independents that would give that group a majority, that would then be communicated to the President, either directly or by some other means.

The role of the President, as I said, is extremely limited under the 1937 Constitution but this does not mean that a President cannot play a very worthwhile role in society. I have no doubt, knowing the kind of man he is, that Deputy Brian Lenihan would fill that role better than anybody else. He has the kind of personality which endears him to people. He likes people and, without any question, people like him. For this reason, when the election is held many of the people who got their pound of flesh tonight will be very surprised with the result.

Yes, it is clear Deputy Lenihan made an error in relation to his interview with Mr. Jim Duffy, but we all make errors. Let this much be said: should either Deputy Austin Currie or Mrs. Mary Robinson spend 33 years at the top in public life and make only one error during that period then I might well be the first to say that he or she should be President. Deputy Lenihan, who has however temporarily, departed the role of Tánaiste and Minister for Defence, is now a candidate for the Presidency and the people will decide whether or not he should be President. I believe, on reflection, the people will decide that Deputy Lenihan has the experience and ability necessary to be the President of Ireland. I also believe that the people, however they decide next week, will on reflection always remember the day the trap was set to destroy a man who had given 33 years of his life to them in the best possible way.

It is a very sad reflection on Irish political life, and those involved in setting the trap which eventually won the pound of flesh, that those people so demeaned the office of Presidency in that way. I do not believe Irish political life should be about the vilification or the hounding of any one man. Neither do I believe that Irish political life is well served by mean tactics such as those. Ultimately, the people will have the opportunity to pass judgment. To say the least, it demeans the office of President to plant a party political activist in an audience to lure a man into a trap. That is a sad reflection on those involved but even though they have won the battle tonight they have not won the war. It is my view that whatever about the battle they will, ultimately, lose the war.

I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "Government" and substitute the following:

"to appoint a broadly based Commission to examine the role and functions of the President and to make recommendations on

(1) the legislative and Constitutional changes required to make the Office of President more relevant to Irish life

(2) more democratic procedures for nominating candidates for the Presidency, particularly a provision to allow a certain number of citizens the power to nominate a candidate."

I move the amendment in my name and that of the other Deputies from The Workers' Party not because I see anything wrong in principle with what is suggested in the Fine Gael motion but because there is need for a more indepth examination as to how the institution might be made more relevant to people's lives. The ideas in the Fine Gael motion are certainly worth considering. My fear is that once election day passes next week the debate in which we have been engaged for some months will disappear and will no longer exercise the minds of politicians and certainly not of citizens. In the nature of things, politicians will address themselves to the immediate problems, not those that arise at seven-year intervals. It is important that a commission should be established to examine the issues to which I have referred in the amendment.

The debate on the nature of the Presidency has developed and grown out of the fact that candidates have been nominated on this occasion. There has not been a Presidential contest for about 17 years and that in itself has devalued people's interest in or ideas about the Presidency. Clearly if a position of such importance is not contested and is simply handed on by agreement, no matter how well intentioned that agreement might be, it tends to develop in the minds of the populace the view that this position is not of much importance and that it is simply a means of compensating political colleagues for services rendered.

Over the years, certainly during my time of conscious political activity, the Presidency has maintained a degree of integrity but also a degree of distance from the common populace. For that reason there is a general feeling that it is of no importance to everyday life. Ireland in the nineties is not the same kind of country as it was in the thirties. The institution of the Presidency has not been reformed since then. The Dáil and the Seanad have been reformed to some extent, minimally I would agree. They have addressed themselves to reforming their procedures and various attempts have been made over the years to change the election system. The institution of the Presidency has remained unchanged. That in itself requires that we should address the issue of the Presidency, the role and the responsibility.

The candidature of Mrs. Mary Robinson, who was nominated in the first place by the Labour Party and has since been jointly nominated by The Workers' Party and a number of Independent Senators, ensured not only that there would be an election but also a debate on the issues concerning the role of the Presidency. In July when I announced The Workers' Party decision to support Mary Robinson's candidature I expressed the hope that the occasion would be used not only to address the role of the Presidency but the development of political values in Irish life. I felt there was a need to address such issues as the pluralism required in political life, the acknowledgement and acceptance of diversity, the need for a realistic view of Northern Ireland and the attitude which it was necessary to change in relation to Northern Ireland, specifically Articles 2 and 3 of our Constitution which the Supreme Court has indicated are a specific claim with legislative backing on the territory of the Northern Ireland State. That is an area which needs examination. It may be that those Articles can be amended or should be deleted or perhaps they should simply be replaced by a less contentious declaration of the wish of people for a united Ireland. It is a debate which needs to be developed. In the nature of things it was not possible — although I thought it might be — for that debate to get under way in relation to the Presidency. Nevertheless we need to develop this debate if we in this State are to hold up our heads in relation to the efforts being made to establish a working relationship between the people of this State and the people of Northern Ireland.

The Fine Gael motion has very useful suggestions. I made suggestions in relation to the role of the Presidency and the nomination procedure in 1983 but they died a death because there was no Presidential campaign. The major parties — Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and the Labour Party — decided they would not contest the election.

The Presidency even as it exists has significant powers. One is the power to dissolve the Dáil at the request of the Taoiseach. I do not intend to rehash the debate we had today on that matter. It is a major power which needs to be refined in terms of the options open to the President and how they should or should not be exercised. That issue could be addressed by the kind of commission I am proposing in the amendment.

The other important power is the power to refer legislation to the Supreme Court. It is important for one simple reason. This House on many occasions has passed legislation which was subsequently found to be defective. It took considerable effort on the part of citizens to get that legislation into the Supreme Court. Not everybody has the resources, the finance, the ability or the patience and resilience to take such cases through the court system to Supreme Court level. The power of the President to refer a Bill to the Supreme Court for examination, approval or disapproval, is an important one, but it is a power that needs to be refined. As I understand it — and I am not a lawyer — if a Bill is approved by the Supreme Court in that way, even though it may have defects other than the one indicated by the President, the Bill is therefore approved and subsequently cannot be challenged as being unconstitutional. That has its advantages and disadvantages.

I contend that that power needs to be refined in some way; in other words, if a Bill is being referred to the Supreme Court for examination, the area of concern should be indicated; it should be that area only that is approved or disapproved in whatever way by the Supreme Court and there should not be blanket approval of any Bill in that way. That would be an important refinement. It is also the kind of issue which could be addressed by the commission I propose.

The other point I might make in relation to the nomination procedures of the Presidency is that at present a person who wants to be a Presidential candidate needs the support of 20 Members of the Oireachtas made up of either Dáil Deputies or Senators, or a combination of both or, alternatively, the nomination of four county councils or corporations. Clearly that restricts the nomination of a candidate to parties that have significant support already in either local authorities or the Dáil. Clearly also, given the nature of our political system, those who will have the power in the Dáil will also have the power in local authorities. I have argued — I made this point back in 1983 and am pleased to note it has been taken up by others outside this House since then; indeed a Member of the Seanad, Senator Carmencita Hederman has taken it up — that there should be a procedure whereby citizens themselves can nominate a candidate. People have argued against that proposal on the basis that there would be a whole range of candidates standing for the Presidency, that it would be impossible to have a count, that it would be impossible to have a nomination paper people could read and so on. There may well be a case for restricting the procedure in some way, but I would argue very strongly that, unless and until we open up the nomination procedures, there will be very little regard for or understanding of the relevance of the Presidency on the part of ordinary people. An office to which people generally have no access — in terms of their ability to become elected to it — in itself cannot have the regard we expect the Presidency to have. Perhaps it could be a procedure whereby, say, 500, 1,000, 2,000, or some such number of citizens, could nominate a candidate. Obviously the people concerned would have to be on the register of electors and so on. Again it is something a commission could address and report on well in advance of the next Presidential election in seven years time. I would go even further because, when one considers that the Presidential campaign covers the whole of this State, it would be unreasonable for ordinary citizens who do not have the backing of political parties, particularly the large parties, to be expected to be able to mount a reasonable campaign in support of their nominated candidate. Therefore, candidates nominated in that way should receive some form of financial assistance to run such a campaign.

We have a procedure already under which free post is available to candidates in General and Presidential elections. There is no reason that could not be extended in certain circumstances to ensure that every citizen would have available to him or her some basic information on all of the candidates standing in a Presidential election. If we are in earnest about making the Presidency a serious institution, about maintaining it as a democratic institution, about maintaining people's interest in our democratic system, then we should make it as easy as possible for people to be elected to those positions. Indeed we should make it as convenient and easy as possible for all citizens to be aware of the choices they are being offered in any one election.

The other aspect of the Presidency clearly is one which touches on the Presidential campaign itself. In electing a President it goes without saying that we need to elect a person who is honest, who has integrity, who is most of all, independent. As I said earlier, the experience to date has been that all of the Presidents elected or unelected have acted independently, with integrity and honesty. There is an important lesson to be learned from the events of the past few weeks in relation to the question of how much our electorate are prepared to put up with in terms of being misled. I will not go any further in relation to that. But there are lessons for all of us to understand, that the electorate are not prepared to be bullied, misled or be treated as fools. The result of the election of Wednesday next, 7 November, will bear that out.

It is unfortunate that the speaker before me on the Fianna Fáil benches still does not realise that the issue was not the question of hounding a particular person, Deputy Brian Lenihan, the man; that was not the issue. The issue was whether or not there was a question of honesty or dishonesty in relation to things said: that is the issue. I have already put on record today my personal regard for the man, but I would be hypocritical if I stood here this evening and said I was sorry that he had had to resign or had had to be sacked, because I do not feel sorry. I have a personal regard for Deputy Brian Lenihan, the man, but I believe that today has been a milestone in the political life of this country, a milestone in the decline of stroke politics, a milestone in the maturity of the Irish political system. Therefore, it has been a good day for Irish politics, not a bad one.

In recent weeks before the Presidential campaign took fire, if you like, there had been a general apathy about the campaign. There had been arguments advanced to the effect that it was a waste of time and money, that the Presidency carries no powers, does not serve any function and so forth. I have already said why I thought that was the case. I have been concerned over a number of years that this attitude to the democratic institutions of this State should not be encouraged by politicians in particular, not because we are the people who earn our living as full-time politicians and therefore have a vested interest in maintaining the institutions concerned. But if we travel down the road of saying that the Presidency or the Seanad should be abolished because they cost money, do not have any real function, or that we should reduce the size of the Dáil because of its cost, because TDs are perceived not to do a particularly good job, or any job at all in some cases, that is a dangerous argument. The logic of that argument is to say: well, this country could be run much more cheaply by one person, by one man or woman and more efficiently perhaps as well. But we would have no democracy, no choice and it would be a very short road to the point at which we would have no elections at all. Therefore, the argument about cost, ineffectiveness and abolition is one which should be resisted by politicians generally and by political parties in particular. What we should be demanding very strongly, what we should be encouraging our citizens generally to seek is greater democracy, greater involvement, greater accountability, more relevance in terms of how the Dáil and Seanad operate, of how people can gain access to these august bodies and more access in terms of citizen's rights to contest and win a position in these bodies. We should be arguing and struggling for greater democracy and greater accountability, not less. Indeed, that debate is very lively on the European scene where the whole argument at the moment concerns the so-called democratic deficit where a parliament is elected which has very little power and where decisions are being made by Commissions and by European Councils which are not accountable to the citizens of the EC. The whole thrust should be towards greater democracy and greater accountability and not less as would be the case if we go down the road of arguing for restricting the institutions we have and making them smaller and less costly.

I hoped the debate would have centred around the nature of the society we would have in the course of time, but it has not opened up in the way I thought. However, the debate we have had over the past week carries lessons for us and indicates the direction in which people really need our society to move. I will conclude on that point.

We have had a very useful discussion on this issue. The debate which has been opened up by the Presidential election campaign should not be left aside after 7 November. The way to avoid that happening is to have a commission established on the lines I have suggested which would include, obviously, representatives of the political parties, the various interest groups, employers, trade unions, women, obviously and the poor. A whole range of interest groups could be involved in such a commission which would report back to the Dáil so that we could move in the next year or two towards amending our Constitution and bringing it up to date with the realities of Irish life.

Deputy Gregory has two-and-a-half minutes.

While I appreciate you, Sir, giving me two-and-a-half minutes, I have to put on record that I resent the system in this House that results in me having to scrounge a couple of minutes to speak on an amendment which I and Deputy Garland put on the Order Paper. It also results in me having to ask you if I can divide my two-and-a-half minutes with Deputy Garland to allow him to come in. With respect, that is a nonsensical system.

Deputy, it is not me who gives you the time. I would not wish to describe you as a scrounger, but I must carry out the orders of the House. I must advise you now that you have a minute and a half left. You can employ it any way you like, but I must call the speaker for the main party at 8.15 p.m. Unfortunately that is the order of the House. I appreciate your frustration but I can do nothing about it.

But for the fact that Deputy De Rossa finished two minutes before his time I would not get those two minutes. It is important to put that on the record.

If the Deputy had asked me, I would have been more than happy to give him more time, but I was not approached for any time.

One should not be obliged — to use the word yet again — to scrounge a few minutes. There should be a mechanism whereby any Member who tables an amendment would have time allocated to him or her to speak on that amendment. That is a very important issue. Unfortunately, I do not attend Whips' meetings, and nobody, not Deputy De Rossa or anybody else, brings up at those meetings where the time is allocated.

I must advise you now that——

(Interruptions.)

It was wrong for Deputy Gregory to say that neither I nor any of my party have never raised these issues. He has never been at those meetings so he does not know the facts. We have raised these issues.

A Leas-Cheann Comhairle——

I have to ask Deputy Gregory to resume his seat. I am calling Deputy Currie now to conclude the debate. I am sorry, Deputy Gregory, you have made your protests and I hope they are heard by somebody who can do something about them because I cannot.

I hope so.

I am sorry I cannot help Deputy Gregory. I would be very glad to do so if it were within my power. I apologise to the House for not having heard many of the speeches but I am sure Deputies will understand why. I have been involved in some other business that some people might be aware of.

I hope the unfortunate events of the past few days, which have pleased nobody and certainly I am not happy at the turn of events, will not have an adverse reaction on this motion. It seems that everything that has happened over the past few days confirms the importance of the issues I have raised throughout the presidential election campaign and confirms the necessity for the independence of the holder of the highest office in the nation. To date, all holders of the office have discharged their duties with tact, judgment, courage and honour. As President Hillery's second term draws to a close, his quiet bearing, sometimes criticised, emerges as a rare quality which now brings him and the Office he holds nothing but honour. But past Presidents have been constrained by the limitations imposed on the Office by our failure as a Legislature to take advantage of Article 13.11 of the Constitution which enables additional functions to be bestowed on the President. While all such additional functions can be discharged only on the advice of the Government — and rightly so — it is still possible to give the Presidency a much more substantial role than it has at present, a role which would serve our people well. Nothing in the Constitution says that the President must be a purely passive figure. However, it is clearly the intention of the Constitution that the President should avoid conflict with the Government of the day and I share that view absolutely.

If elected President it is my intention to shake up Áras an Uachtaráin so that it would become the centre of Irish society. The Áras is far too staid and too remote from our citizens even from leading figures in our community. I intend to change this. I plan on making Áras an Uachtaráin the powerhouse of excellence of all things Irish and to use the enormous prestige of the office to summon forth excellence in all aspects of national life. There are things which with energy, enthusiasm and commitment a President can do even with present limitations.

I support strongly the proposals of my party to expand the functions of the Presidency. We feel that Overseas Development Aid should involve the President. This would be done by the establishment of an overseas development commission with the President having the permanent role of chairman. They would be entrusted with the allocation of overseas aid for specific projects out of funds voted by the Oireachtas. It is a priority of the Fine Gael Party that Ireland would reach the UN objective of 0.7 per cent of GNP. Repeatedly the Irish people have shown not only through our great missionary tradition but also our sharpened sensitivity to famine, a great willingness to help relieve the desperate poverty and underdevelopment abroad. Therefore, Fine Gael are committed to introducing in this House an overseas development Bill which would provide funding for this commission and an international role for the President.

Fine Gael also believe that the President can exercise a greater role in Irish society through legal changes without reference to constitutional amendments. While Article 13.11 of the Constitution places a restraint on the manner in which the President can exercise such powers as might be entrusted to him or her, it does not dictate that these powers must be purely symbolic or nominal.

The independence of the courts from the Government is the central pillar on which all democracies must rest. We believe this independence will be enhanced if the President is given the role to fill vacancies arising on the Bench in any of our courts. We propose a legal change where the President will initiate a procedural consultation with the Bar Council and the Incorporated Law Society. This would lead to the recommendation of a number of candidates whose names would be submitted to the Government. The Government would then, through the President, appoint their nominees. This change would enhance both our courts and the office of President.

Also, in regard to the courts, there have been continuing complaints about their dependence on the Government for accommodation, staffing levels, office facilities and resources. This, in turn, has caused delays and inefficiencies in the administration of justice. It is, therefore, proposed that there should be established under the chairmanship of the President a judicial commission consisting of the Chief Justice, the President of the High Court, the Presidents of the Circuit Court and District Court, the Ombudsman, the Attorney General, the Director of Public Prosecutions, the Chief State Solicitor, the chairman of the Legal Aid Board and representative of the Incorporated Law Society and the Bar Council. This commission would take an open view of the operations of the courts and make confidential recommendations to Government of proposed improvements in our court system.

Over the last decade there has been a marked increase in public sensitivity to our environment and heritage. The way we protect our environment now will determine the health and well being of future generations. This issue transcends national boundaries. Fine Gael believe, therefore, that the President should on all appropriate occasions, including when representing the State abroad, emphasise the need for international solidarity in taking all necessary action to provide a healthy, safe, global environment.

In the domestic context Fine Gael, in proposing that the President should have a specific role in the area of environmental protection, have already published a Bill to establish an environmental protection agency. The executive functions of this agency would be carried out by an environment commissioner who would be appointed by the President pursuant to a resolution of the Oireachtas. It was further envisaged that there would be established an environment council to act as an advisory group to the commission on the agency. It is essential that this council is independent of Government. We are proposing that the President would be appointed by statute to act as chairman of this environment council.

We are one of the few nations of the developed world which has no national system to grant recognition for major achievement in our national life, be it for public work, community endeavour, outstanding courage or sporting achievement. Fine Gael are proposing that it should be a major function of the Presidency to promote the pursuit of excellence in all facets of our national life. We believe that it is possible to establish, by legislation, a meaningful and highly regarded system of national awards to mark conspicious service and the attainment of excellence in various areas of our national life. Such awards should be made annually and could extend to non-citizens who have made a substantial contribution to this State or who, in their international work, deserve recognition, such as, someone who has made a substantial contribution to peace and reconciliation. This would be called the Presidential merit award scheme. The scheme would include ceremonial proceedings for the granting of such awards and civic standing that could be granted to holders of such awards.

We have one of the youngest populations in the western world. Sport plays an increasingly important role in our national life. The international achievement of our sport stars in recent years has been a cause of national pride and has stimulated further interest in these sports. While the President has attended most of our major sporting events each year, Fine Gael feel that there is further potential for the Office of President in this area. We have already published proposals for the establishment of a national sport and recreation council to be founded by national lottery finance. We believe the President, by enactment, should be empowered to act as chairman of this council and play a specific role in promoting sports and encouraging participants in sporting activities.

Finally, under the existing provisions of the Constitution the President may convene a meeting of either or both Houses of the Oireachtas and may address the Houses of the Oireachtas with Government approval. The President may also, after consultation with the Council of State, address a message to the nation at any time on any matter. Fine Gael believes that this facility and concept has never been fully utilised, and therefore we propose the President should annually convene both Houses of the Oireachtas for an address with Government approval. Successive Governments have under-utilised the talents of their Presidents. We are proposing a new style of President with new powers and functions. I pledge, as a holder of the office, to ensure that these new and dynamic roles for the President will be carried out enthusiastically and energetically.

In the short time that is left to me there is one point that I must emphasise fully. All of the proposals we have made, and all of the reasonable proposals which have been made in relation to the extension of the role of the President depend, to a very large extent indeed, on the independence of the holder of that Office and it should be clearly seen that the holder of that Office is independent. The President is, of course, elected through a political process and we are currently engaged in that political process; but when elected the President must be above party politics, and must be seen to be above party politics.

All of the proposals which I have referred to, which are the proposals of Fine Gael, are firmly based on the necessity of that independence, I will give one example: the establishment of a Presidential merit award scheme is totally dependent on having an independent President because we have already too much political patronage in this country. We do not require any more politcal patronage, and the involvement of a truly independent President in relation to this Presidential merit scheme would have the effect of ensuring that political patronage would not enter into that area. It is for that reason I emphasise once again the total importance of the independence of that Office and my commitment to this House and to this country of my independence in that regard.

Amendment put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 24; Níl 125.

  • Bell, Michael.
  • Byrne, Eric.
  • De Rossa, Proinsias.
  • Ferris, Michael.
  • Garland, Roger.
  • Gilmore, Eamon.
  • Gregory, Tony.
  • Higgins, Michael D.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Kemmy, Jim.
  • McCartan, Pat.
  • Mac Giolla, Tomás.
  • Moynihan, Michael.
  • O'Shea, Brian.
  • O'Sullivan, Gerry.
  • O'Sullivan, Toddy.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Rabbitte, Pat.
  • Ryan, Seán.
  • Sherlock, Joe.
  • Spring, Dick.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Taylor, Mervyn.

Níl

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Dermot.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Barnes, Monica.
  • Barrett, Michael.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Belton, Louis J.
  • Boylan, Andrew.
  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Brady, Gerard.
  • Brady, Vincent.
  • Brennan, Mattie.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
  • Browne, John (Wexford).
  • Bruton, John.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Calleary, Seán.
  • Callely, Ivor.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Clohessy, Peadar.
  • Collins, Gerard.
  • Connolly, Ger.
  • Connor, John.
  • Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
  • Cotter, Bill.
  • Coughlan, Mary Theresa.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Creed, Michael.
  • Crowley, Frank.
  • Cullimore, Séamus.
  • Currie, Austin.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • D'Arcy, Michael.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • Deasy, Austin.
  • Deenihan, Jimmy.
  • Dempsey, Noel.
  • McEllistrim, Tom.
  • McGahon, Brendan.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • McGrath, Paul.
  • Mitchell, Jim.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Morley, P.J.
  • Nealon, Ted.
  • Nolan, M.J.
  • Noonan, Michael. (Limerick East).
  • Noonan, Michael J. (Limerick West).
  • O'Brien, Fergus.
  • O'Connell, John.
  • O'Dea, Willie.
  • O'Donoghue, John.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Keeffe, Ned.
  • Dennehy, John.
  • de Valera, Síle.
  • Doyle, Joe.
  • Durkan, Bernard.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Enright, Thomas W.
  • Fahey, Frank.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Fennell, Nuala.
  • Finucane, Michael.
  • FitzGerald, Garret.
  • Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.
  • Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
  • Flaherty, Mary.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
  • Flood, Chris.
  • Gallagher, Pat the Cope.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Harte, Paddy.
  • Haughey, Charles J.
  • Higgins, Jim.
  • Hillery, Brian.
  • Hilliard, Colm.
  • Hogan, Philip.
  • Hyland, Liam.
  • Jacob, Joe.
  • Kelly, Laurence.
  • Kenneally, Brendan.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Kitt, Tom.
  • Lawlor, Liam.
  • Lee, Pat.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Lowry, Michael.
  • Lyons, Denis.
  • Martin, Micheál.
  • McCormack, Pádraic.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • McDaid, Jim.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • Owen, Nora.
  • Power, Seán.
  • Quill, Máirín.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Reynolds, Gerry.
  • Roche, Dick.
  • Sheehan, Patrick J.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Stafford, John.
  • Taylor-Quinn, Madeleine.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Wallace, Mary.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Wilson, John P.
  • Wyse, Pearse.
  • Yates, Ivan.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies McCartan and Ferris; Níl, Deputies J. Higgins and Boylan.
Amendment declared lost.

I move amendment No. 2:

To delete all words after "legislation" and substitute the following:

"immediately, to be submitted to a referendum of the people to grant to the people the right of initiative to select Presidential candidates."

I am putting the question, "That the amendment be made". I think the amendment is lost.

Vótáil.

Will the Members who are demanding a division please rise in their places?

Deputies Gregory, Garland, Mac Giolla, Gilmore, Sherlock, Rabbitte, Byrne, De Rossa and McCartan rose.

As fewer than ten Members have risen, in accordance with Standing Orders I declare the amendment lost. The names of those demanding a division will be entered in the Journal of the Proceedings of the Dáil.

I am now putting the motion in the names of Deputies Dukes and Currie.

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 69; Níl, 76.

  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Barnes, Monica.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Bell, Michael.
  • Belton, Louis J.
  • Boylan, Andrew.
  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
  • Bruton, John.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Byrne, Eric.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Connor, John.
  • Ferris, Michael.
  • Finucane, Michael.
  • FitzGerald, Garret.
  • Flaherty, Mary.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
  • Gilmore, Eamon.
  • Harte, Paddy.
  • Higgins, Jim.
  • Higgins, Michael D.
  • Hogan, Philip.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Kemmy, Jim.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • Lee, Pat.
  • Lowry, Michael.
  • McCartan, Pat.
  • McCormack, Pádraic.
  • McGahon, Brendan.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • Mac Giolla, Tomás.
  • McGrath, Paul.
  • Mitchell, Jim.
  • Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
  • Cotter, Bill.
  • Creed, Michael.
  • Crowley, Frank.
  • Currie, Austin.
  • Deasy, Austin.
  • Deenihan, Jimmy.
  • De Rossa, Proinsias.
  • Doyle, Joe.
  • Durkan, Bernard.
  • Enright, Thomas W.
  • Farrelly, John V.
  • Fennell, Nuala.
  • Moynihan, Michael.
  • Nealon, Ted.
  • Noonan, Michael. (Limerick East).
  • O'Brien, Fergus.
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Shea, Brian.
  • O'Sullivan, Gerry.
  • O'Sullivan, Toddy.
  • Owen, Nora.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Rabbitte, Pat.
  • Reynolds, Gerry.
  • Ryan, Seán.
  • Sheehan, Patrick J.
  • Sherlock, Joe.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Taylor, Mervyn.
  • Taylor-Quinn, Madeleine.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Yates, Ivan.

Níl

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Dermot.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Barrett, Michael.
  • Brady, Gerard.
  • Brady, Vincent.
  • Brennan, Mattie.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Browne, John (Wexford).
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Calleary, Seán.
  • Callely, Ivor.
  • Clohessy, Peadar.
  • Collins, Gerard.
  • Connolly, Ger.
  • Coughlan, Mary Theresa.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Cullimore, Séamus.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • Dempsey, Noel.
  • Dennehy, John.
  • de Valera, Síle.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Fahey, Frank.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.
  • Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
  • Flood, Chris.
  • Gallagher, Pat the Cope.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Haughey, Charles J.
  • Hillery, Brian.
  • Hilliard, Colm.
  • Hyland, Liam.
  • Jacob, Joe.
  • Kelly, Laurence.
  • Kenneally, Brendan.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Kitt, Tom.
  • Lawlor, Liam.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Lyons, Denis.
  • Martin, Micheál.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • McDaid, Jim.
  • McEllistrim, Tom.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Nolan, M.J.
  • Noonan, Michael J. (Limerick West).
  • O'Connell, John.
  • O'Dea, Willie.
  • O'Donoghue, John.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Keeffe, Ned.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • Power, Seán.
  • Quill, Máirín.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Roche, Dick.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Stafford, John.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Wallace, Mary.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Wilson, John P.
  • Wyse, Pearse.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies J. Higgins and Boylan; Níl, Deputies V. Brady and Clohessy.
Question declared lost.
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