Austin Deasy
Question:8 Mr. Deasy asked the Taoiseach if he will give details of President de Klerk's forthcoming visit to this country; if this is an official State visit; and if he will be meeting Mr. de Klerk in his official capacity.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Visit of South African President.
Nora Owen
Question:9 Mrs. Owen asked the Taoiseach when he invited the South African President de Klerk to visit Ireland; the date and nature of the visit; who will accompany him; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
Dick Spring
Question:10 Mr. Spring asked the Taoiseach if he will make a statement on the forthcoming visit of the President of South Africa to Ireland.
I propose to take Questions Nos. 8 to 10 together.
President de Klerk will pay a one-day working visit to Ireland on Thursday next, at the invitation of the Government, following an initial approach by the South African side.
President de Klerk will be accompanied by Mrs. de Klerk and by the Deputy Minister for Foreign Affairs, Mr. Leon Wessels. The Minister for Foreign Affairs and I will have talks with President de Klerk and Mr. Wessels.
The Government believe that much of the credit of the major and positive developments over the past year or so towards ending apartheid must go to President de Klerk personally, and he has given a clear undertaking to implement measures to this end, which has been welcomed by the international community, including Ireland.
The visit will usefully signal the Government's firm support for the process initiated by President de Klerk. It will also serve to mark our desire to see the momentum of that process maintained in order that the apartheid system is fully abolished at the earliest possible date.
I fully support the sentiments expressed by the Taoiseach, that we should be gracious and acknowledge the tremendous progress that President de Klerk has brought about in his country. Seeing that Ireland is one of two countries in the EC continuing to operate sanctions against South African produce, can the Taoiseach say whether this matter will be discussed on Thursday next during his meeting with President de Klerk? Is the Taoiseach inclined to the view that our exercise of sanctions against South Africa should be brought to a conclusion in view of the lead shown by President de Klerk?
I am quite sure the matter will be discussed. Our position is fully on record in that, in this area, we move with our EC partners. As the Deputy will know, at the Rome Summit the EC partners decided to lift sanctions in view of the progress that had been made and their belief that there is now inevitable progress towards the demolition of apartheid.
I understood that Ireland and Denmark were still applying sanctions on the South African regime. Is that correct?
We are moving in conjunction with our EC partners.
Can the Taoiseach say whether they are still in existence or about to be removed?
Some of them have been removed, Yes.
But others are still in place?
Yes.
Would the Taoiseach give this House a categoric assurance that he will not be talked into removing Irish sanctions until such time as irreversible and profound change has taken place in South Africa? Would the Taoiseach accept that the mere act of tabling repealing legislation — welcome though it is — in itself is not an irreversible act in the removal of apartheid? Furthermore, is he aware that the removal of the 1986 package of sanctions was viewed with great concern not merely by the ANC in South Africa but by many of the church and voluntary groups working there to bring about peaceful negotiations to end apartheid? Finally, would the Taoiseach——
The Deputy is engaging in a series of questions——
I am afraid you will not allow me pose others, a Cheann Comhairle, which is why I am endeavouring to put them all now. Would the Taoiseach be prepared to comment on whether he thinks the United Nations Resolutions of December 1989 has been met in which it was stated that the international community will not relax existing measures aimed at encouraging South Africa to eradicate apartheid——
I must dissuade the Deputy from putting a large number of questions in omnibus form in this fashion which is not in order.
—— until there is ample evidence that apartheid is being dismantled or eradicated?
This is not a matter for stridency but rather one for balanced, mature judgement. What we all want to achieve is the abolition of apartheid. Ireland's record is second to none in this whole area, which has been acknowledged by all those who are working consistently for the abolition of apartheid. But we have got to ascertain how best that can be done. In this regard we will move cautiously and carefully, in full co-operation and agreement with our European partners, to the extent that that is possible. It appears to be the view of most people at this stage that President de Klerk has done a lot, is sincere, and should be supported.
Hear, hear.
Let us for a moment imagine that if, for some reason, President de Klerk were now not to be supported and were to fail, I do not think anybody, least of all the Deputy concerned, would want that. So we must form a judgement as to how best to get to the point we want, which is the final abolition of apartheid. It seems to me that, at this stage, we should offer President de Klerk support in what he is trying to do in the belief that he is sincere in what he is trying to do. That is a judgement we must make but I am prepared to make it at this stage.
I might pose two questions to the Taoiseach. First, in the consideration given by the Government to the question of whether an invitation should be extended to President de Klerk, did the Government give some consideration to views put forward by others from South Africa, the ANC and religious leaders? Second, would the Taoiseach say whether the South African Government put forward a timetable for the dismantling of apartheid in the context of discussions they had with the Government before the invitation was extended?
We did not have any discussions with the South African Government. The Minister for Foreign Affairs met President de Klerk some time ago but we did not have any recent discussions with President de Klerk before the invitation was issued. Hopefully those discussions will take place on Thursday next. I think I know the views of most people in this House on this issue. I think this House and the Irish people generally have been very consistent on this issue. We did not receive what I might call any very trenchant objections to extending the invitation to President de Klerk. The approach was made by the South Africans, in return for which we extended the invitation because we felt that, at this stage, it could do nothing but good to have a friendly, amicable meeting with President de Klerk, express our continuing concerns and ascertain how far we can advance the situation.
There are two levels of sanctions within the EC—those adopted by the Twelve member states in addition to which the Danish and Irish Governments have imposed additional ones. Can the Taoiseach tell the House now which sanctions will be dismantled, whether it will be those agreed by the Twelve member states of the EC or will the Irish and Danish Governments dismantle theirs as well?
I do not want to preempt the forthcoming discussion. I am sure that President de Klerk will be raising the matter of sanctions with us. I will have to listen to what he has to say. It is my opinion that the sanctions have, to some extent, served their purpose. I doubt very much we would be where we are today without two things: first, the sanctions and, second, President de Klerk's own personal efforts.
I am not disagreeing with those sentiments at all. What I am endeavouring to ascertain is whether, when the EC decide to dismantle sanctions, they will dismantle those agreed between the Twelve. The Irish Government have further sanctions as have the Danish Government; can the Taoiseach tell us what is the position about those additional sanctions?
I will wait and see.
I think the Taoiseach——
Surely the Government——
I have called Deputy De Rossa. Deputy De Rossa is in possession and he will respond.
Surely the Government have taken a decision——
If we take a decision now, what is the point of meeting tomorrow to talk about them?
A decision was taken about the sanctions a month ago without meeting them.
May I ask the Taoiseach if he is not forgetting a third element in how we have reached this point, that is, the people of South Africa who have opposed the system consistently and suffered appalling torture and death as a result of their opposition? In view of that, would the Taoiseach bear in mind in his discussions with Mr. de Klerk that the representatives of the people of South Africa — the black people specifically and the coloured people of South Africa — have asked that sanctions be maintained until irreversible advances have been made towards the dismantling of apartheid. While many promises have been made——
I appeal for brevity.
——and Mr. de Klerk is to be congratulated on the movement he has made, it is important that sanctions of some form are maintained at some level in order to maintain the pressure for change.
I seem to recall Archbishop Tutu saying somewhere that sanctions should now be removed.
Should be considered.
Contrary to what the Taoiseach is trying to imply, and not being strident about the matter, there is still concern despite the progress made that the EC might jump just one step too far before the profound change has come. I would ask the Taoiseach to raise with President de Klerk the very sensitive issue of political prisoners and the return of political exiles to South Africa.
We will have a full discussion on all of that.
In view of the reply given to one of the questions, can the Taoiseach confirm that this country has no independent policy on sanctions, apart from that of the EC?
I think Deputy Barry's question brought out the opposite.