Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 17 Dec 1991

Private Business. - Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take Nos. 12, 15 and 8, No. 8 to be taken not later than 3.45 p.m.

It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders that: (1) Business shall be interrupted at 10.30 p.m. tonight; (2) No. 12 shall be decided without debate and (3) the following arrangements shall apply in the case of No. 8: (a) the Minister for Finance shall speak at the commencement of the debate for not more than 30 minutes and the Minister of State at the Department of Finance shall be called on not later than 6.50 p.m. to make a speech in reply not exceeding ten minutes and the speech of each other Member called on shall not exceed 20 minutes; (b) the proceedings on the remaining Stages of the Bill, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 10.30 p.m. by one question which shall be put from the Chair, and which shall in relation to amendments, include only amendments set down by the Minister for Finance, and the order shall not resume thereafter.

Private Members' Business shall be No. 36, Motion 54.

An Ceann Comhairle

May I now ask if proposal No. 1, that business be interrupted at 10.30 p.m. is agreed?

Proinsias de Rossa

On a point of order, I wish to raise a question in relation to the first point on the Order of Business where it is proposed that No. 8 be taken not later than 3.45 p.m. I oppose that proposal.

An Ceann Comhairle

I note your objection, Deputy. I will go through the proposalsseriatim and come back to the Deputy's question.

Proinsias de Rossa

I am taking the first proposal on the Order of Business and I am doing so for two reasons——

An Ceann Comhairle

May I intervene? Items No. 1 is that business be interrupted at 10.30 p.m. tonight.

Proinsias de Rossa

I am referring to the first line of the Order of Business, it is proposed to take Nos. 12, 15 and 8, No. 8 to be taken not later than 3.45 p.m. I am opposing that proposal.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have to tell the Deputy that that proposal is the prerogative of the Taoiseach.

Proinsias de Rossa

I accept that it is the prerogative of the Taoiseach to set the business for the day but it is a matter for the House to decide when items should begin or finish and at what stages certain Bills may be taken. Indeed, if one reads through the rest of the Order Paper one will see that various proposals are made for the completion of various matters. I am seeking to oppose the proposal that Item. No. 8 be taken not later than 3.45 p.m.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will be happy to facilitate the Deputy in having the matter decided by the House but I am convinced that with respect to Item No. 8 to be taken not later than 3.45 p.m., that is the prerogative of the Taoiseach.

Proinsias de Rossa

I do not wish to——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may find a way of challenging the Order of Business in another form but not in that way.

Proinsias de Rossa

The reason I want to specifically oppose it at this point——

An Ceann Comhairle

I am sorry, Deputy, we cannot have a debate on the matter.

Proinsias de Rossa

I will try to explain. I cannot understand how we can oppose Item Nos. 1, 2, 3 and so on which set time limits and the times for debates to begin and end, and not be able to oppose the taking of Item No. 8 at 3.45 p.m. It is a normal procedure, where we are given the option to agree or not to agree to the way debates are taken. Item No. 8 has been proposed to be taken at 3.45 p.m.

An Ceann Comhairle

I understand the Deputy's point of view.

Proinsias de Rossa

It is a hidden guillotine and I wish to oppose it.

An Ceann Comhairle

In respect of Item No. 8, the Order of Business states that it should be taken not later than 3.45 p.m. There is no time limit involved.

Proinsias de Rossa

What it is doing is setting a time limit on the Committee Stage of the B & I Line Bill on which debate must be adjourned at 3.45 p.m. or before Questions. It is also dealt with at a later stage in this order.

An Ceann Comhairle

I would prefer if the Deputy would raise it at a later stage.

Proinsias de Rossa

I am seeking to avoid having the vote three or four times by taking it on this issue.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have allowed Deputy De Rossa quite considerable time. The Chair is quite clear in the procedure in this matter. I am now going to put the question, "That Business shall be interrupted at 10.30 p.m. tonight."

Mr. J. Bruton

I object to the proposal to interrupt Business because of the completely unsatisfactory arrangements for dealing with Business today, particularly with regard to the Bill proposing to sell off the B & I at less than its worth, and not on the basis of the proper disclosure on Second Stage by the Minister of the material facts of this case. Fine Gael object to the attempt to push this Bill through under a time limit.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy need not elaborate now.

Proinsias De Rossa

As the Chair has ruled me out of order on the points I sought to make in relation to Item Nos. 8 and 15, I support Deputy Bruton's opposition to Item No. 1 on the Order Paper, for two reasons. First, it sets in motion the guillotine procedure for the B & I Line Bill which it is proposed to complete by 1.30 p.m. tomorrow. The time allowed is totally inadequate in terms of the number of amendments which must be dealt with by this House on the B & I Line Bill, which run close to 20 amendments. I also object the way in which the Pensions Bill is being dealt with and the very short time being allocated to that item as well.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am putting the question, "That Business shall be interrupted at 10.30 p.m. tonight."

Question put.

The Dáil divided: Tá, 73; Níl, 65.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies D. Ahern and Clohessy; Níl, Deputies Flanagan and Boylan.

Question declared carried.

Ahern, Bertie.Ahern, Dermot.Ahern, Michael.Aylward, Liam.Barrett, Michael.Brady, Gerard.Brady, Vincent.Brennan, Mattie.Brennan, Séamus.Briscoe, Ben.Browne, John (Wexford).Burke, Raphael P.Calleary, Seán.Clohessy, Peadar.Connolly, Ger.Coughlan, Mary Theresa.Cullimore, Séamus.Daly, Brendan.Davern, Noel.Dempsey, Noel.Dennehy, John. Lenihan, Brian.Leonard, Jimmy.Leyden, Terry.Lyons, Denis.Martin, Micheál.McCreevy, Charlie.McDaid, Jim.McEllistrim, Tom.Morley, P. J.Nolan, M. J.Noonan, Michael J.(Limerick West).O'Dea, Willie.O'Donoghue, John.O'Hanlon, Rory.O'Keeffe, Ned.

de Valera, Síle.Fahey, Frank.Fahey, Jackie.Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.Fitzpatrick, Dermot.Flood, Chris.Flynn, Pádraig.Gallagher, Pat the Cope.Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.Harney, Mary.Haughey, Charles J.Hillery, Brian.Hilliard, Colm.Hyland, Liam.Jacob, Joe.Kelly, Laurence.Kenneally, Brendan.Kirk, Séamus.Kitt, Michael P.Kitt, Tom.Lawlor, Liam. O'Kennedy, Michael.O'Leary, John.O'Malley, Desmond J.O'Rourke, Mary.O'Toole, Martin Joe.Power, Seán.Reynolds, Albert.Roche, Dick.Smith, Michael.Stafford, John.Treacy, Noel.Tunney, Jim.Wallace, Dan.Wallace, Mary.Woods, Michael.Wyse, Pearse.

Barnes, Monica.Barrett, Seán.Barry, Peter.Belton, Louis J.Boylan, Andrew.Bradford, Paul.Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).Bruton, John.Bruton, Richard.Byrne, Eric.Carey, Donal.Cosgrave, Michael Joe.Cotter, Bill.Creed, Michael.Crowley, Frank.Currie, Austin.D'Arcy, Michael.Deasy, Austin.De Rossa, Proinsias.Doyle, Joe.Dukes, Alan.Durkan, Bernard.Enright, Thomas W.Farrelly, John V.Fennell, Nuala.Finucane, Michael.FitzGerald, Garret.Flaherty, Mary.Flanagan, Charles.Garland, Roger.Gilmore, Eamon.Harte, Paddy.Higgins, Jim.

Higgins, Michael D.Hogan, Philip.Howlin, Brendan.Kavanagh, Liam.Lee, Pat.Lowry, Michael.McCartan, Pat.McCormack, Pádraic.McGrath, Paul.Mitchell, Gay.Moynihan, Michael.Nealon, Ted.Noonan, Michael.(Limerick East).O'Brien, Fergus.O'Keeffe, Jim.O'Shea, Brian.O'Sullivan, Gerry.O'Sullivan, Toddy.Owen, Nora.Pattison, Séamus.Quinn, Ruairí.Rabbitte, Pat.Reynolds, Gerry.Ryan, Seán.Shatter, Alan.Sheehan, Patrick J.Sherlock, Joe.Spring, Dick.Stagg, Emmet.Taylor, Mervyn.Timmins, Godfrey.Yates, Ivan.

An Ceann Comhairle

I must now ask if it is agreed that Item No. 12 be decided without debate. Agreed. May I ask if the proposals for dealing with Item No. 8 are agreed?

Mr. G. Mitchell

I understand the Minister is to be called first and the Minister of State is to be called last. May I ask when the shop stewards committee for the backbenchers are going to be called? It is time we were allowed the opportunity to criticise the Gleeson recommendations on which the Bill is based.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will be afforded that opportunity in due course.

Mr. G. Mitchell

I certainly intend to take it.

An Ceann Comhairle

The matter is listed.

Proinsias De Rossa

I simply want to place on record my party's opposition to the use of the guillotine on this Bill. I do not propose to call a vote on it because the House has to deal with the B & I Line Bill but it is disgraceful that we are being forced to debate a Bill of this kind in such a short space of time given that the report has been around for three and a half years.

An Ceann Comhairle

I take it then that the proposals for dealing with No. 8 are agreed?

Mr. McCartan

They are not agreed.

An Ceann Comhairle

I thought your colleague said he was not challenging it.

Miss Flaherty

We will not challenge it.

Question, "That the arrangements for dealing with No. 8 be agreed" put and declared carried.

Mr. J. Bruton

Some time ago the Taoiseach gave an indication that before the end of this year the Government would publish a White Paper on marriage breakdown. We are very near the end of the year and I would like to know if the Government can give an indication as to when this promise, which may involve legislation, will be met.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is legislation promised in this area?

The Taoiseach

No, only a White Paper.

Mr. Quinn

It was threatened by the Progressive Democrats.

The Taoiseach

I have no objection to answering that question. The White Paper is well under way and it will be published as soon as possible.

Mr. J. Bruton

When is "as soon as possible"?

The Taoiseach

I cannot say.

Mr. Spring

In view of the fact that an injunction has been obtained against an inspector appointed by the High Court at the behest of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, will the Minister make a statement on the matter in the House at the earliest opportunity?

An Ceann Comhairle

Surely that matter issub judice.

Proinsias De Rossa

The Taoiseach has, on a number of occasions in the House, indicated that a White Paper on the Maastricht conclusions would be published. Could the Taoiseach indicate when it is expected that that White Paper will be published and circulated to Deputies?

An Ceann Comhairle

It does not refer to legislation.

The Taoiseach

I have already referred to that matter several times. I have indicated that the White Paper will be brought forward as early as possible in the New Year.

Proinsias De Rossa

At what stage? Will we have it early in January or late in January?

The Taoiseach

I cannot say at this stage. It is a major piece of work.

Proinsias De Rossa

I understand that.

Mr. M. Higgins

There is reference in the mid-term Programme for Government to a statement to be made in the House on the issue of votes for emigrants. May I ask the Taoiseach whether such a statement will be made or whether preparations are being made for a referendum, should it be necessary, on this subject?

An Ceann Comhairle

Could the Deputy indicate if legislation has been promised in this regard?

Mr. M. Higgins

In so far as the mid-term programme is an aspiration of sorts it has been promised.

Mr. Harte

In view of the statement by Depont this morning that they are no longer interested in developing an incinerator plant at Maydown, would the Government indicate their thanks to Dupont for not proceeding with this project and would they also indicate to the House what their policy is now?

An Ceann Comhairle

The matter to which the Deputy refers is most inappropriate to the Order of Business.

Mr. Harte

A Cheann Comhairle——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Harte should know that.

Mr. Harte

The Government are responsible for providing an incinerator in the Republic.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Harte must desist.

Mr. Harte

What is the policy of the Government——

An Ceann Comhairle

The matter is not in order now, Deputy Harte.

Mr. J. Mitchell

Arising from the question relating to the White Paper on Maastricht may I ask the Taoiseach when it is intended to hold the referendum on Maastricht; and will it be held at the same time as the promised district council elections? Will the Taoiseach also tell us when we can expect the promised legislation on district councils?

An Ceann Comhairle

That would be a very good question at Question Time.

Mr. J. Mitchell

The Government have promised legislation on district council elections and also on a referendum on Maastricht.

The Taoiseach

No, we have not.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is raising a lot of matters. I am calling Deputy John Bruton.

Mr. J. Mitchell

Has the Taoiseach promised the holding of district council elections?

An Ceann Comhairle

Sorry, Deputy Mitchell, there are many ways of dealing with these matters.

Mr. J. Mitchell

District council elections have been promised. Will the holding of such elections require legislation?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy John Bruton, please.

Mr. J. Mitchell

Would the Taoiseach reply to my question?

Mr. J. Bruton

Have the Government any plans for the duration of the Christmas recess?

An Ceann Comhairle

This question has been asked on a number of occasions.

The Taoiseach

It has been asked frequently and I know it is a matter of crucial importance for Deputies but an announcement in that regard will be made in the normal way at the appropriate time.

Mr. S. Barrett

In view of the recent Supreme Court case, may I ask the Taoiseach if the Family Home Bill in near completion and ready for publication?

An Ceann Comhairle

That matter issub judice.

Mr. S. Barrett

The court case is over.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Deputy repeat the question?

Mr. S. Barrett

I wish to ask the Taoiseach if the Family Home Bill is near completion and when it will be published.

An Ceann Comhairle

Sorry, I misheard the Deputy.

The Taoiseach

It is near completion. It will be published and we hope it will be taken in the next session.

Mr. Browne

(Carlow-Kilkenny): In view of the fact that there are only seven survivors of the 1916 Rising, one of whom, at 96 years of age, is alive and well in Carlow, would the Taoiseach ensure that, in the proper Christmas spirit, that person is not deprived of free fuel and free telephone because his daughter-in-law is living in the house?

An Ceann Comhairle

I thought the Deputy had a relevant matter to raise.

Mr. McCartan

Can the Taoiseach say if legislation to deal with the problem of shared ownership, promised in the social housing programme introduced almost a year ago but not yet implemented, will be published so that those of us working particularly at local government level can consider it during the Christmas holidays with a view to its implementation soon.

The Taoiseach

I think I have already dealt with this matter on a number of occasions. We hope to circulate the legislation during the recess and take it next session.

Mr. McCartan

We were told that it would be dealt with in the House before the Christmas recess.

An Ceann Comhairle

This should not lead to argument.

Mr. Currie

May I ask when the final consultants' report into the proposals of An Post to close down sub-post offices will be made available to Members of the House, as promised on 5 November last?

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not strictly appropriate to the Order of Business.

Mrs. Barnes

May I ask the Taoiseach if the appointment of a Minister with responsibility for women's affairs will be made during this session?

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not appropriate to the Order of Business.

Mrs. Barnes

It may not be promised legislation but it has been promised.

Mr. G. Mitchell

May I ask the Taoiseach about the promised legislation on the office of the Comptroller and Auditor General, a matter which I have been patiently raising in the House for a very long time?

Mr. J. Bruton

It was never more necessary.

Mr. Creed

They do not like the Comptroller and Auditor General.

The Taoiseach

I have nothing further to add at this stage. The legislation is well advanced and will be taken as soon as possible.

Miss Flaherty

May I ask if during the recess the Government will consider providing time early in the New Year for a debate in the House on the report of the Joint Committee on Commercial State-Sponsored Bodies on Bord na Móna?

An Ceann Comhairle

Is legislation promised in this area?

Miss Flaherty

I am asking for a discussion on the report.

An Ceann Comhairle

A question would suffice, Deputy.

Mr. Quinn

May I ask the Taoiseach if over the weekend he has had a chance to reconsider the question of a European affairs committee and if he is now in a position to say when he proposes to establish such a committee?

An Ceann Comhairle

This again has been raised very often in the House.

The Taoiseach

Consideration of a European affairs committee is proceeding as rapidly as possible. I would like to point out to the Deputy that the Department of Foreign Affairs, in particular, have been very heavily engaged in the whole run-up to Maastricht and even subsequently. There is no attempt to delay this matter. It is just a question of getting it done.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

Does it take four years?

Mr. Quinn

Are the Department of Foreign Affairs opposed to such a committee?

The Taoiseach

No. It is Government policy, and that is the end of the matter.