Seymour Crawford
Question:9 Mr. Crawford asked the Minister for Education when she will be in a position to change the points system for admission to third level education.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Educational Points System.
John Browne
Question:23 Mr. Browne (Carlow-Kilkenny) asked the Minister for Education if she has any plans to change the present points system for admission to third level education.
Seymour Crawford
Question:53 Mr. Crawford asked the Minister for Education if the universities have made any recommendations regarding the changing of the points system for entry to third level education.
I propose to take Questions Nos. 9, 23 and 53 together.
The selection of students for places on courses in higher education institutions is a matter for the authorities of these institutions. The points system is a mechanism used by the institutions to process applications from prospective students in a fair and equitable manner. It is seen and accepted generally as such.
A number of years ago there was an amount of public disquiet about the complexity of the admission procedures to our universities and technological colleges. In order to minimise the anxiety and cost for students associated with entry to third-level, the Department initiated discussions with the higher education institutions. These discussions resulted in an improved, simplified and streamlined system.
In the new system, which has been in place since 1992, improvements include a single application through the CAO/CAS system for all third-level courses in universities and technological colleges, standardisation of the number of subjects reckoned for points purposes and the weighting given to the different grades in the leaving certificate. This led to a common points system and the circulation of points on the basis of grades obtained at a single sitting of the leaving certificate examination. These changes were widely welcomed. The new system combined with the revised grading system in the leaving certificate should reduce the proportion of student places which are allocated by random selection. The result is a simpler, fairer and more efficient process. While I, of course, appreciate the anxieties associated with the points system, it is fair and transparent relating leaving certificate results to access to third level. I am not aware of any proposals from the universities to change the present system.
(Carlow-Kilkenny): I am taken aback by the Minister's reply to this question. Universities have been dictating the role of education and the system to be applied at second level. I thought it would be the Minister's role to decide whether this system is suitable. At present students are almost committing suicide because of the points system, with which most educationalists find serious fault. I had hoped the Minister would show some concern about this matter. I would welcome a working group in this very difficult area. Perhaps a system of interviews could be introduced in conjunction with the points system. Alternatively, as a well-known national figure in education suggested, the faculties of law, medicine, pharmacy and architecture should be allowed take in a whole range of students who would battle it out for places and at the end of the first year those with talent and flair would be successful. That would prevent people with the highest number of points from getting places for a profession for which they have no talent. Perhaps the Minister would review this system which is unsuitable at present.
The Deputy's questioning is over-long.
The selection procedure is the responsibility of the authorities of the institutions. Every system has its critics but I am satisfied that nobody has come up with a better system in this area——
(Carlow-Kilkenny): We expect a great deal from the Minister.
——given the demographic trends and the problems of accommodation that must be faced in the near future. As regards the suggestion made by an eminent educationalist that everybody be allowed battle it out for places, that system operated in the sixties when those with the finance who completed second level education battled their way through many programmes before making their final choice. That system may be open to institutions at the end of this century or the beginning of the next century because I know that Ministers will not be approached to close down buildings due to a lack of new entrants.
On the question of interviews, there was much public disquiet about interviews and great effort was made to ensure that the selection procedure was simple and transparent. The only interviews remaining in the system are those for teacher training, the purpose of which is to accept or fail pupils, not to increase the number of points. There are certain subject matters that require interview such as music, design, hotel and catering management and the arts the students of which have to prepare portfolios. I am not aware that the public had great confidence in the interview system which operated for colleges. The suggestion was that students were selected very much on the basis of the schools they attended, the areas in which they grew up and their social status for the profession for which they applied.
There was also the problem whereby students and their parents had to rush around the country to attend interviews in regional technical colleges in the early days of these colleges. There was great public disquiet at that stage. We responded to the expense and concern factor. I will keep an open mind on it. I am always prepared to set up a committee, but it is only fair to say that the committee who streamlined this was not set up in my time.
If the Minister is not willing to look at the inequities in the points system, will she look at a specific area where there is clear discrimination against people on low incomes? A student who qualified for a third level place within the points system and for a higher education grant because of low income might not get that grant because he does not have the leaving certificate honours necessary under the rules. There is a great inequity there, admittedly in the case of a small number of students, but it has serious consequences for individual students who cannot afford to go to third level even though they have qualified for places.
I am concerned about any inequities in the system. The points system is laid down by the institutions themselves. We now have a grants committee looking at the restructured grants and I hope to have its report in time for the next round.
The setting up of these committees is a very good idea but I am concerned that the Minister should take the initiative in relation to glaring inequities. This inequity relates to the qualifications needed to get higher education grants. If the Minister dealt with this problem, it would make life a lot easier for students who are unable to get grants in order to avail of third level education.
I refer the Deputy to an advertisement which was in the paper earlier this week in which the grants committee asked people concerned about inequities to make submissions.
All it takes is a stroke of a pen, it does not need a committee.
The Minister is aware that we are not questioning the integrity of the leaving certificate as an orthodox examination, or the points system from the point of view of transparency. Will the Minister agree it is incongruous that one can become a doctor, an optician, a dentist or a vet on the basis of a 20 hour academic examination held in the middle of June, without in some cases any career counselling or discussion with the heads of faculties and that, therefore, aptitude does not seem to come into it? There should be some element of interview, advice or accessibility to the various features of a profession. The lack of such facilities seems to account for the relatively high drop-out from many third level colleges after the first year because people have ended up as square pegs in round holes. The Minister will find that third level colleges are receptive to change. In a recent article in "Education Matters" by the Provost of Trinity College, Dr. Tom Mitchell, he alleged that our second level education system is to exam driven.
I have no intention of driving any of the third level institutions to recreate the matriculation examination. I am satisfied that the standards required of the leaving certificate will be maintained. The Deputy is painting a picture which might have been relevant a number of years ago when students went into professions on the basis of the points they were awarded. While we all know the points for last year's leaving certificate examination it is very hard to know what this year's out-turn will be. We have sanctioned an increased number of career guidance teachers. Schools hold career nights and invite people involved in the different professions to talk to students. Things have progressed amazingly since the days when I was at school. I recently attended an open day organised by the Dublin vocational education committee in the Mansion House where every course available within the remit of the vocational education committee was discussed. The schools facilitate students to attend the various open days that have been held.
What about aptitude, Minister?
Children should not be prevented from securing places in third level colleges on any grounds except aptitude. I have to be satisfied that what is happening at primary and second level will ensure that those who have the aptitude and ability to benefit from third level will get it. Teachers to whom I talked have not suggested that there is any better system than this. When I visit more third level institutions I will take the matter up with the relevant authorities.
Will the Minister agree that since the CA system came in, particularly for regional colleges, a difficulty has arisen in that some students who would put business studies for instance as a first option would find that on the points achieved they would be placed in a course for television technicians although they may not have any background for this? Would it not be worth considering an aptitude test for students who wish to attend third level colleges?
Regional colleges were set up to serve regions but with the introduction of the CA system the students came from all parts of the country. The courses were to be designed to suit the regions, but that concept seems to have gone out the door with the result that students are coming from Monaghan to Cork and from Cork to Letterkenny. That is an expensive process. Could we have a module which would rationalise the system?
Children will end up going to courses for which they are not suitable if we do not have proper guidance in place. We have made more guidance counsellors available this year under the Programme for Economic and Social Progress agreement. Those teachers will be available to next year's intake. I hope to see more maturity in the way students fill in forms and that they will apply for courses for which they feel they have an aptitude.
With regard to regional colleges, among those educated in Dublin there was a feeling that the rest of the country came to Dublin. The opening of the regional technical colleges was as welcome to those educating children in the greater Dublin area as to those educating them in the regions. I have not looked specifically at the breakdown in the regional colleges, but I was heartened by a figure which was drawn to my attention last Monday week. I opened the fantastic Regional Technical College in Tallaght for which £70 million of European funding has been made available. In that college 650 students are attending courses which began last September and 365 of these are from the local area. They were selected by means of the points system and chose a course in the technical college nearest them. I was heartened to see that happening in the Dublin area where there has not been the traditional take-up of third level courses which we find in other countries. Perhaps the Deputy would like a regional breakdown for attendances at the other regional colleges.
(Carlow-Kilkenny): In relation to interviews. I was not suggesting that they should be the be all and the end all of the selection process. I am trying to get a balance between academic achievement and aptitude. Primary teachers will no longer be required to undergo a decent interview, if they look normal they are accepted. In the past, they were required to undego an examination in singing and an interim in Irish. If people are to become teachers they need to have some flair. The lack of music could be a serious loss to the nation. In regard to medicine and the famous bedside manner that we talk about, will we end up with doctors who are so academically minded that they will all go on to further studies? Will there be any GPs left in the country after a certain number of years? It is not easy to handle this matter properly but we must see whether we can obtain a better balance than we have at present.
Interviews were very much part of third level selection a number of years ago but no public confidence was expressed in their support. They are not transparent and they are not anonymous. None of the parents, students and groups interviewed in the course of changing the mechanism and simplifying the administrative procedures asked for additional interviews. The indications to the Department were that the more interviews we could abolish the fairer and more transparent the selection process would be. I take the Deputy's point concerning the suitability of people to be involved in certain professions. I hope that with the increased number of guidance teachers available and the increased awareness by pupils, we will be able to ensure that if somebody applies for medicine they have a full appreciation of the task they are taking on and the cost to them.
(Carlow-Kilkenny): It is a status symbol.
We will monitor it.
A final supplementary from the Member who tabled the question, Deputy Crawford.
The reason I tabled the question was that I met a young man who wanted to do veterinary but failed his examination by one point. He sat the examination the following year, gained the extra points but in the meantime the number of points required had increased. That young man was able to go to a medical college but he actually wanted to do veterinary. It is strange that he should be judged solely on the points system and that he is now undertaking a medical course rather than a veterinary course.
There is no perfect system. We have a problem because of the increased number of students seeking places. In 1987 56,000 students sought places in higher education but today there are 80,000. We look forward to more places becoming available in the years to come. I hope the students selected were suited to the veterinary profession. I also hope that while one cannot have places made available retrospectively for students that this particular student is as good with people as he was with animals.