It is proposed to take No. 1. It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that (1) the sitting shall not be suspended at 1.30 p.m. today and (2) Private Member's Business shall also be taken tomorrow between 1 p.m. and 2.30 p.m. Private Members' Business shall be No. 11A on a Supplementary Order Paper and No. 17.
Order of Business.
Is the proposal that the sitting shall not be suspended at 1.30 p.m. today satisfactory?
We still refuse to agree to the Order of Business. Given what has happened since last week arising from the official statement by the Department of Finance that there have been no breaches of its guidelines for the award of semi-State contracts and no breaches have been notified to it——
The Deputy is bringing in extraneous matter.
——and Minister Lowry's refusal to make available to the House data which it is entitled to be given under the Department of Finance's guidelines, does the Taoiseach think that having 25 senior accountants working day and night at great public expense is justified?
This proposal deals with the suspension or otherwise of the sitting at 1.30 p.m. today and nothing else.
Several weeks ago we were promised a debate in the House. Our committee system has been discredited——
Sorry, Deputy Ahern, I cannot entertain extraneous matters of the kind to which you refer.
The Minister has returned from holidays——
I am sure the Deputy will find ways and means of raising such matters at the appropriate time.
That is rather difficult to do; already we have had to wait two weeks.
I am putting the Question: "That the Sitting shall not be suspended at 1.30 p.m. today."
Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 63; Níl, 52.
Tá
- Ahearn, Theresa.
- Allen, Bernard.
- Bell, Michael.
- Boylan, Andrew.
- Bradford, Paul.
- Bhreathnach, Niamh.
- Bree, Declan.
- Broughan, Tommy.
- Costello, Joe.
- Coveney, Hugh.
- Crawford, Seymour.
- Creed, Michael.
- Currie, Austin.
- Deenihan, Jimmy.
- De Rossa, Proinsias.
- Doyle, Avril.
- Durkan, Bernard J.
- Ferris, Michael.
- Finucane, Michael.
- Fitzgerald, Brian.
- Fitzgerald, Frances.
- Flaherty, Mary.
- Flanagan, Charles.
- Fox, Mildred.
- Gallagher, Pat.
- Gilmore, Eamon.
- Higgins, Jim.
- Higgins, Michael D.
- Kemmy, Jim.
- Kenny, Seán.
- Lowry, Michael.
- Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
- Bruton, John.
- Bruton, Richard.
- Burke, Liam.
- Byrne, Eric.
- Carey, Donal.
- Connaughton, Paul.
- Connor, John.
- McCormack, Pádraic.
- McDowell, Derek.
- McGahon, Brendan.
- McGrath, Paul.
- McManus, Liz.
- Mitchell, Gay.
- Mulvihill, John.
- Nealon, Ted.
- Noonan, Michael (Limerick East).
- O'Keeffe, Jim.
- O'Sullivan, Today.
- Owen, Nora.
- Pattison, Séamus.
- Penrose, William.
- Quinn, Ruairí.
- Ring, Michael.
- Ryan, John.
- Ryan, Seán.
- Sargent, Trevor.
- Shatter, Alan.
- Shortall, Róisín.
- Stagg, Emmet.
- Taylor, Mervyn.
- Walsh, Eamon.
Níl
- Ahern, Bertie.
- Ahern, Dermot.
- Ahern, Michael.
- Ahern, Noel.
- Andrews, David.
- Aylward, Liam.
- Brennan, Séamus.
- Briscoe, Ben.
- Browne, John (Wexford).
- Burke, Raphael P.
- Callely, Ivor.
- Clohessy, Peadar.
- Connolly, Ger.
- Cowen, Brian.
- Cullen, Martin.
- Davern, Noel.
- Dempsey, Noel.
- Doherty, Seán.
- Ellis, John.
- Fitzgerald, Liam.
- Flood, Chris.
- Harney, Mary.
- Hilliard, Colm M.
- Hughes, Séamus.
- Jacob, Joe.
- Kenneally, Brendan.
- Keogh, Helen.
- Killeen, Tony.
- Kirk, Séamus.
- Kitt, Tom.
- Leonard, Jimmy.
- Martin, Micheál.
- Moffatt, Tom.
- Morley, P.J.
- Nolan, M.J.
- Noonan, Michael (Limerick West).
- O'Dea, Willie.
- O'Donnell, Liz.
- O'Donoghue, John.
- O'Hanlon, Rory.
- O'Keeffe, Batt.
- O'Keeffe, Ned.
- O'Leary, John.
- O'Malley, Desmond J.
- Quill, Máirín.
- Ryan, Eoin.
- Smith, Brendan.
- Smith, Michael.
- Treacy, Noel.
- Wallace, Dan.
- Walsh, Joe.
- Woods, Michael.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies J. Higgins and B. Fitzgerald: Níl, Deputies D. Ahern and Callely.
Question declared carried.
Is the proposal that Private Members' Business shall also be taken tomorrow between 1 p.m. and 2.30 p.m. satisfactory? Agreed.
Does the Taoiseach welcome the decision of the European Court of Justice on the Gibraltar Three case and, in the light of that decision, will he urge the British Government to alter its approach to the peace process? The British Government must recognise that in terms of protecting the state and its citizens from terrorism it went beyond what is legitimate and it, too, is a guilty party. Will the Taoiseach agree that it is now necessary to consolidate the peace process in a spirit of much greater genorosity than we have seen over the past few months?
I wish to help the Deputy, but the matter to which he referred is not relevant to the Order of Business.
Regarding legislation on the transfer of prisoners and the rules applying to it, in view of the British Government's refusal to transfer prisoners, will the Taoiseach indicate if he has made contact with the British Government on the operation of that legislation? I note the Government's intention to accept republican prisoners in Portlaoise Prison, but, apparently, the British are seeking a derogation from that legislation.
I am sure the Deputy will find a way of raising that matter at a more appropriate time.
Has the Taoiseach been in touch with the British Government on that matter? I note the Taoiseach is indicating that he has been in touch with the British on that.
I am in charge here Deputy.
When will legislation be introduced to provide for the disposal of the Trustee Savings Bank?
Legislation is under consideration and I could not give the Deputy a date at this juncture.
Before the summer recess the Taoiseach said the legislation would be introduced shortly. I am sure he is aware that there is a good deal of despair among the institutions interested in acquiring an interest in the Trustee Savings Bank and among its management. I urge the Government to end the stalemate in Cabinet on this issue and to make a decision on it.
This matter should not lead to argument.
On a point of order, on 1 March 1995 these Houses unanimously passed an order authorising the Joint Committee on Commercial State-sponsored Bodies to send for Ministers and papers — the Dáil unanimously implemented the relevant sections 4 and 11 on 7 April 1993.
Deputy Brennan, it is somewhat audacious of you to challenge me on this matter without daring to do me the courtesy of advising me in advance. The Deputy knows full well that the Ceann Comhairle of this House has no function in relation to committees of the House and will not interfere in the domestic affairs of such committees. The Deputy is picking on the wrong man.
I am simply pointing out that this House unanimously gave the Joint Committee on Commercial State-sponsored Bodies power to send for Ministers.
There are committees governing such matters and, perhaps, this matter might be appropriate to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, but it is not one for me.
What does the Taoiseach propose to do about that unanimous decision given the Minister's refusal——
The Deputy will have to deal with that matter in another way, he may not deal with it now.
Those unanimous orders of the House have been ignored by the Minister.
Regarding the proposed debate on the Government's amendment to the Constitution, does the Taoiseach envisage that the order of speakers will take into account the valid opinions of the technical group and the Green Party so that they may be included in the first round of speakers rather than having to wait for a possible opportunity to contribute later?
That seems to be a matter for the Whips.
I agree, but I have no representation with the Whips.
There is plenty of time for everybody to contribute to the debate.
The Taoiseach indicated recently on the Order of Business that the Government Chief Whip would bring forward a programme on Dáil reform. Will he consider a review of the rules governing the attendance of witnesses at committees in that context in view of the turn of events yesterday and the previous week regarding the missing Minister?
The proposals on Dáil reform from the Minister of State will be ready for presentation to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges in approximately two weeks. When they are finalised any members of other parties who wish to make suggestions for additions or subtractions will be free to do so.
Is the Taoiseach happy with the way the committees have been conducting their business up to now and the manner in which they have been unable to summon witness before them?
That should not give rise to debate now.
I answered the question the Deputy put to me.
That is only paying lip service to the committees.
Will the Taoiseach give time to discuss the report on the task force on travellers published in July 1995?
The Deputy should approach his party's Whip, Deputy Ahern and ask him to raise this matter at a Whip's meeting and all parties of the House can then discuss if time might be provided for this matter.
We thank the Minister for Finance for information we received by way of parliamentary reply that there have not been any breaches of the Cromien guidelines on semi-State companies in the case of semi-State bodies. We have requested the Minister Deputy Lowry to lay details under the Cromien regulations before the House. He has the confidential data and annual reports sent to the Minister. If there have not been breaches why does the Taoiseach consider it necessary to employ 25 accountants for four weeks working day and night to justify an allegation made by the Minister?
The Deputy will have to pursue that matter in the usual manner by way of a question or motion. If serious charges are to be made, they must be made by way of substantive motion.