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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 4 Feb 1997

Vol. 474 No. 3

Private Members' Business. - Industrial Relations in CIE.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann notes with concern the turmoil at CIE which has resulted in the company's plans for change being in disarray, has led to a threat of an all-out strike at CIE and produced the recent massive disruption to services; condemns the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications for failing to take a hands-on approach to the crisis and for not developing a strategic plan for CIE and the semi-State sector; and calls on the Minister immediately to bring forward policy initiatives and a White Paper to chart a future course for the development of the semi-State sector.

I wish to share ten minutes of my time with Deputy Bertie Ahern.

I am sure that is satisfactory and agreed.

It has been necessary to put down this motion because of the escalating industrial relations crisis in CIE, which manifested itself most clearly on budget day when commuter services were massively disrupted by an unofficial stoppage. On that day all transport services were disrupted in some fashion, with the train service particularly badly hit. It was a long time since there had been disruptions of this nature but CIE workers are at breaking point because their concerns continue to be ignored by both the company and the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications.

The risk of even greater disruption remains because of the continuing stalemate. A national transport strike has been threatened if CIE management persists in its gung-ho approach. Management's position is unprecedented and it turns back the clock on the principles of social partnership. For the past year it seems to have been on a deliberate collision course with the company's workers. A confrontational approach has been adopted and management appears to want the end result to be a "big bang" dispute. It will get precisely what it wants unless the Minister and the Government finally pay attention to the time bomb which is ticking away and will explode on the public in the form of a widescale national dispute.

Rather than adopting such an old-fashioned approach to its problems, CIE should be instructed by the Minister to negotiate change. The concerns of the workforce must be recognised and accommodated. The trade union movement in the company has, in the past, shown itself to be capable and willing to negotiate change and it is again willing to play its part in managing the required changes.

It is scandalous that the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications and a Government made up of parties claiming to be left of centre have turned a blind eye to everything that is going on in CIE. The rot began before Christmas when the most ridiculous dispute ever was provoked by management. This related to the non-payment of part of the pay awards under the Programme for Competitiveness and Work and the unilateral introduction of a pay freeze. To provoke a dispute just before Christmas over a basic payment which was due to be made and was guaranteed under the social partnership was nothing short of madness. Amid much controversy and comment the matter ended up in the Labour Court, where the company rightly had to back down and abandon its ridiculous scheme. A similar piece of industrial relations by CIE management was its attempt to change the terms and conditions of bus drivers, which resulted in a High Court judgment.

CIE management is now back with a series of plans to achieve cost savings of £44 million. The unions have been told that these plans are effectively not negotiable, they must either take or leave them and the company claims to have the sanction of the Minister and the Government for their unilateral implementation. I want to know whether this is true.

Irish Rail is to have £30 million shaved off in its cost-cutting plan. This will mean savage reductions of £180 per week in train drivers' pay. Some 148 redundancies are being sought on the Inter-City routes, 198 in mechanical engineering, 114 in infrastructure, 144 in administration and 182 in freight.

Similar swingeing cuts are proposed in the other companies of the group. I was told that a blue manual has been produced to show what is proposed in Bus Éireann and it reads like a doomsday book. One column shows a driver's reference number and the column along side shows how that person will lose up to £180 per week in many cases. Other drivers are to receive increases, which means the company thinks they are underpaid at present. Other measures in the plan include letting go 100 of the company's 250 engineering operatives and contracting out school operations. There are also proposals for split shifts and part-time working. All this was done with the blessing of a Government which includes Ministers who, from time to time, condemn these practices in private companies, yet the creation of a "yellow pack on wheels" operation is fine for CIE, a State-owned company.

The situation has been exacerbated for the CIE unions by the comments made by the companies' consultants. The consultants for Dublin Bus are reported as saying that the market for transport in the city is now mature and there is no more business. This is inaccurate. Dublin Bus has not reached its potential by a long shot and additional investment in marketing would prove that. With initiative and leadership the company could develop even further, especially if its services were properly marketed and focused to cater for new, large, sprawling housing developments.

CIE workers have made many sacrifices. On the rail side, the workforce has reduced from 11,000 to 5,000 over a few short years and in the past three years 630 workers have gone. The current plan is seeking too much too quickly and the end result may be that the company will not achieve what it most wants because of the appalling way it has been handled.

The Government's aloofness is unprecedented. For the 12 months up to last November, the Minister's predecessor refused to meet the unions or to take any responsibility for CIE. He made no comment on the matter in case he would have to answer about it in the Dáil. The new Minister, Deputy Dukes, has turned out to be equally evasive. Although he has been almost three months in the Department he has given the dispute a wide berth. He has refused to meet the unions, which is a worrying development. I, and everyone on this side of the House, always have and always will meet the social partners. We have never shied away from our responsibilities in that regard.

Except when in Government. I will say more about that in a moment.

We met them then also. I met them when I was in office. Yesterday the Minister went a step further. At the official opening of a bus lane, he made the fantastic claim that he felt the dispute could be resolved between the sides. The Minister is obviously more out of touch than I thought. If he had even inquired about the latest state of play before making those comments he would have discovered that there is no basis for that view. In the latest salvo in the war at CIE, the unions responded to the operations manager in Bus Éireann as follows:

I refer to your correspondence through the medium of fax relating to your intention to introduce unilateral work practice changes on 31 March 1997. I draw your attention to the following. First, your stated intention will be resisted through the use of strike action by this trade union. Second, the contents of your letter are totally contrary to the comments on RTÉ Television News today by the chief executive of CIE and the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications. Third, with regard to the meeting on 7 February, no delegation from this trade union will be attending. We do not attend meetings convened on the basis of threats. Fourth, I remind you of the recent High Court judgment on the terms and employment conditions applicable to the staff involved in your unilateral proposals.

From the tone of that letter there is no basis for any settlement nor for the Minister's comment yesterday that the dispute was resolvable. Trust between the sides is sundered and irreparable. It is now so bad that the trade unions in the CIE group of companies believe — and some have said privately — that some of the accounts have been specially designed to paint an awful picture. They cite the fact that surpluses have suddenly turned into deficits and deficits have escalated.

There can be no doubt that this dispute is deepening and becoming more polarised but the Minister responsible for bus lanes but not buses, Deputy Dukes, has a different insight into industrial relations. Perhaps he was recovering from the elements yesterday when he made those comments. I understand he experienced CIE management at first hand and discovered that even the bus shelters are inadequate because one side is exposed. Double-ended bus stops are beyond the capacity of the management.

The Minister has always been presented as a safe pair of Fine Gael hands and called a man who gets things done. When he came into Government people said he would bring stability and intelligence.

The Deputy should not confuse me by paying me compliments; it is out of character.

Wait for the next bit. Since he went to the Department of Transport, Energy and Communications, he has shown few of these attributes. In his first Question Time he said, rather foolishly, that he would stand over all Deputy Lowry's decisions and would not unpick any of them. That is interesting. Then the Minister gave his first interview to the Sunday Business Post. In this he repeated what he said in 1996, that the Government placed too great an emphasis on consensus. He said “personally I think we are overdosing on consensus”. That is exactly the problem in CIE.

The Deputy is about to put an end to that.

The way the new Minister has decided to carry on the legacy of the old Minister probably tells us something about why he is treating the unions in CIE with such contempt. We have Deputy Dukes instead of Deputy Lowry, but the policy continues.

The Minister was not always so silent about CIE. When he was a backbencher, but by no means a humble one——

I will never be accused of that.

——he was much more forthcoming. For example, as reported in the committee debates of the Select Committee on Enterprise and Economic Strategy on 5 June 1996 at column 484 Deputy Dukes said:

My constituents, and other people around the country, are of the view that Bus Éireann is providing an inadequate service. In some parts of the country, including my own constituency, it frequently provides an inadequate service with very unreliable, outdated equipment, whereas there are a number of private operators who, it seems, under the right conditions would be prepared to provide a comprehensive service.

I cannot argue with that.

It is clear what Deputy Dukes is really at. On that occasion Deputy Dukes also wanted something done about the Arrow, the DART and so on. Now that he is Minister, what is he doing about these? Not much, from what I can see. With up to three months in office the honeymoon appears to be over,——

——but the Minister has not come to grips with his brief. The Minister's days as the lofty country squire of Leinster House——

This is very hurtful stuff.

——peering down from the back benches on all of us are now over and he needs to set himself a few tasks and get down to them with some vigour. The Minister has the longest schedule of outstanding legislation in the Cabinet with 11 Bills still pending but none forthcoming. The Electricity Bill was promised in 1996 and the other day the Taoiseach told me it would not be introduced until 1998. It is clear that there is complete legislative gridlock in the Department of Transport, Energy and Communications under this Minister who appears unable to move that legislation along. Is the real reason ideological differences with his Cabinet colleagues? I suspect it is——

This is shrewd stuff.

——otherwise we would have that legislation by now. While he says he is standing over all the former Minister's decisions, we recently heard his announcement that the former Governor of the Central Bank would act as an adviser on Luas. Last night on "Questions and Answers" the Minister, Deputy Dukes, said that Mr. Maurice Doyle's job was to be a thinker for him. What does Deputy Dukes need to think about if he is not going to have an independent study on putting Luas underground in the city centre? One either commissions that study or one does not. The Minister does not need Mr. Maurice Doyle to think about whether he should do that. He is able to make that decision himself.

That is a great vote of confidence.

The Minister is obviously developing Deputy Lowry's fetish for consultants. It seems to go with the job. Even thinking is now being privatised by Deputy Dukes and the Department of Transport, Energy and Communications. It is quite a luxury to bring in one's own private Plato——

This is high class stuff.

——at a cost of £10,000 to the taxpayer, especially when the Minister says he does not plan to change anything, that he is not going to unpick Deputy Lowry's decisions. Why do we need consultants if the Minister is not going to change anything?

The Minister also faces industrial conflict on the Aer Lingus front. Again this is a State company where trust in industrial relations terms is at an all-time low. Relations between management and unions are obviously septic, given the nature of the current rather silly dispute, but with a Minister who does not believe in consensus, the Department does not seem to care and the consumer will end up being the loser.

When the Minister spoke at a Dáil committee last year, he was all for licensing private bus operators and others. Telecom Éireann's staff had better watch out. At the recent glitzy launch of the strategic alliance, combined with international beauties flown in for the occasion, the new owners were not pulling any punches. They were not five hours into the deal when the new-share-holders said that they wanted to privatise Telecom Éireann within three years. That is why I was looking for the details of that deal for so long — I knew that was part of the deal, and if this House had been told it——

The Deputy has all he needs.

——we would have seen it for ourselves.

I told Deputy Harney that the other day too.

Is that Government policy or is it not? What has the Minister to say to the new shareholders of Telecom Éireann who want to privatise it within three years? Where does the Government stand on that issue?

Fianna Fáil has been highly critical of the Telecom Éireann strategic alliance. The price is scandalously low and the deal is heavily weighted in favour of the overseas investors — there are overseas investors, but no Irish need apply. The overseas investors hold all the rights and options——

This is the same tired old stuff all over again. The Deputy will have to get a new record.

——even though they paid a bargain basement price for 20 per cent of Telecom Éireann. Indeed, according to Telia's chief executive, the deal also involved some "tax planning". I would like the Minister to explain what the overseas investors mean by that. Is it the former Minister's type of tax planning that he was thinking about when he referred to that?

Demosthenes.

Telecom's new partners already have their sights set on cashing in their chips, and they seem to have found a soul mate in the Minister who is carrying on that policy and seeing it to a conclusion so that the overseas investors make off with the silver in Telecom Éireann within a few short years with no response from this Government and with the collusion of left-wing parties in this country.

The Deputy knows perfectly well that is not so. He is not even doing it well.

The new Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications should not have stood over this deal. It has been a betrayal of the taxpayer. From the outset, Fianna Fáil said that Telecom had the potential to herald a renaissance in the State sector. We have always been of the view that rather than Telecom being a defensive player, it should have gone on the offensive and taken a stake internationally. We believe it could and should become an Irish multinational overseas rather than adopting the defensive strategy begun by Deputy Lowry and continued by Minister Dukes of selling off 20 per cent of it for a bargain basement price. Now we are told by the new owners, with the company not a couple of hours in their ownership, that they want to sell the rest of the company within three years. That is precisely why we have been objecting to this crazy deal.

I do not think they said they want to sell it.

I am amazed that the Minister has gone along with that.

The Minister will have an opportunity to reply shortly.

I look forward to it.

The Minister has also failed to throw any light on the way the Department of Transport, Energy and Communications does its business. For the past two years report after report has been commissioned on the semi-State bodies. Each one has remained secret. Each development has been done by stealth. I asked the last Minister, and I have asked this Minister, to release the consultants' reports, but we do not get them. We get secret decisions, secret back room deals, secret selling off of State companies at knockdown prices, and we are not allowed to see the consultants' reports which apparently gave this advice. If Deputy Dukes is not going to make some difference, if he is only going to carry on Deputy Lowry's policies, which have been so opposed by every company in the semi-State sector, then he should think again about the portfolio that he holds, because the strategy that is now being pursued has backfired, and it will backfire again.

We see this again with the plan for a new peat-fired station in the midlands. The former Minister refused to explain why the first competition for this was abandoned. Another set of consultants were then appointed. On top of this there appears to have been a deliberate policy by the last Minister not to spend the Economic Infrastructural Operational Programme. Only 9 per cent of this programme, which is to fund the new power station, has been spent despite it being mid-term review time. According to media reports, the peat plan is now in jeopardy, but the Minister is denying that. I would ask him to explain tonight what happened with the consultants or with the spending of the programme.

The same legacy of secrecy and neglect appears set to continue with the myriad other problems in the Department of Transport, Energy and Communications. The controversy about the second mobile phone licence does not appear to be going away. We saw another set of revelations in a Sunday newspaper. In the transcript of an interview, Deputy Lowry said that neither he nor the Department ever knew how the mobile licence deal was financed. This cuts across what the former Minister told the Dáil and what the Secretary of the Department of Transport, Energy and Communications told a press conference on 19 April 1996. He had said the list from which the potential investors was to be drawn was handed to and known by his Department. Which of his stories in this regard is true?

The litany of problems grows even longer, with no resolution. Regional airports are being ignored by this Minister, as they were by the last one. The abolition of duty free shopping is going ahead, almost unchallenged. Will the Minister, Deputy Dukes, shake himself and do battle on the duty free front? The rainbow Government is putting forward EU plans which will lead to the closure of many rural post offices. Shannon Airport's development remains at a standstill with no interest being shown by this Minister.

It had its best year ever last year.

The Minister must have done a great deal in two months.

I do not claim that.

The British Government and British Nuclear Fuels are being allowed to walk all over the residents of the east coast with their mad proposals to build another nuclear dump at Sellafield. The Ministers of State, Deputies Gilmore and Stagg, make noises but that is all. The time bomb for a holocaust is ticking away. The Ministers keep telling us that the latest report on safety will be enforced. However, the British Government did not take long to shelve the North report.

Our Government should make a huge effort to protest about this Sellafield proposal. Deputy Dukes, as Minister with responsibility for energy, should be directly involved in it and it should be done at the level of Taoiseach and Prime Minister. The time for pussy footing is over.

Deputy Stagg did more than Deputy Brennan ever did.

Every mechanism, including the European courts, should be utilised to block these nightmare plans.

The Minister, Deputy Dukes, in his recent contribution in this House on the budget tried to sow some trouble. He had made the wonderful discovery that Fianna Fáil has its own distinct set of policies on the development of the State sector which are——

I could not find any.

——different from those of all other parties in this House.

The Progressive Democrats have policies but they are very different from those of Fianna Fáil.

Fianna Fáil always had its own distinctive approach to the development of the State sector and it always will. The Fianna Fáil approach to the transport, energy and communications portfolio, and the many semi-State companies within it, is based on enterprise and pragmatism rather than outdated, sterile ideology. The needs of each company and each sector must be carefully examined because we care for the people who work in those companies, unlike the parties opposite. Fianna Fáil's philosophy and history has consistently been one of support for the workers in semi-State companies and the companies themselves as engines of economic growth.

Hear, hear.

We believe in the stakeholder concept, which we will actively develop. We acknowledge, however, that it is a time of change in the State sector. This change is being driven by technology, EU deregulation and competition. However, we do not advocate gung-ho privatisation policies for their own sake or for ideological reasons. Under Fianna Fáil, there would not be any mass sell-offs.

We believe in facing the challenges together in a co-operative spirit and maintaining the relationship of trust which Fianna Fáil has fostered with the social partners. We recognise that the transition from monopoly status to competitive market player can be a demanding one for many State companies. We are committed to the steady management of rapid change in the semi-State sector and — unlike the present Government — to fully involving management, unions and the social partners in the process of managing change.

We recognise that if the companies are to perform and succeed commercially they must have commercial freedom. Where there are costs of public services to be borne which are proper and unavoidable, these must be borne not just by the State companies but by all the players in the market. Any change deemed necessary by Government from time to time in the structure of particular State companies should take place if it is in the best interests of the public, the company and its employees, but only following full consultation with the social partners rather than in the absence of consultation as we have seen in this CIE dispute.

Our approach has always been a case by case one, based on a deep philosophy of support for the semi-State companies as engines of growth and for those who work in them. These workers have reared families over the years and are prepared to make changes in the companies, provided they are negotiated under the social partnership umbrella and not handed down as diktats from Ministers or insensitive management.

Our semi-State strategy is strongly founded on the stakeholder concept, where corporations are encouraged to pursue profit but not to the detriment of society. We recognise employees and customers as stakeholders in State firms. We give them access to developing the future of those companies. That gives them real influence on company policy in the event of any change to the structure. Fianna Fáil has said before in many debates that we would like to reserve up to 15 per cent of the shares in State companies for the workers in those companies as a matter of policy.

It is firm EU policy to insist on competition in all areas now covered by commercial semi-State companies. We believe that competition is good for the economy. We are opposed to non-essential monopolies in the long-term, be they private or public. We are confident that State companies have the skills to meet the competition which faces them. However, the pace and quantity of entry of new players to sectors must be carefully managed and in full consultation with the social partners. This side of the House and the leader of my party were instrumental in developing the social partnership model. It is madness to try to make major changes in State companies and sell off large chunks of companies without the precise, negotiated agreement of the social partners who have played a strong role in the management of change in these companies.

What is happening at present in CIE, Aer Lingus and a raft of other State companies is that the social partnership model is being ignored. Instead, we have Ministers who will not meet unions; management laying down diktats, supported by the Minister, Deputy Dukes, and the Government; and the secret sale of shares in companies without any debate in this House or documentation laid before it or any consultants' reports.

I thought the Deputy did not like consultants.

If the Minister continues to ignore the social partnership model for change in State companies, I am certain he will regret it.

We will also look at the potential of restructured State companies as Irish multinational enterprises with significant export or overseas sales opportunities. Their success and development will have to be considered from the same perspective as growing indigenous companies. Some, such as Aer Rianta, ESB and Telecom Éireann, have developed but there has not been a clear Government policy to promote them and allow them to expand overseas through offensive strategic programmes.

Our aim is to reinvigorate the State sector and to create a renaissance in that sector. That is why our motion states there is a necessity to develop a strategic business plan for CIE and the semi-State sector. The Minister should bring forward policy initiatives and a White Paper to chart a future course for the development of semi-State companies. Rather than negative comment from the Minister, we need positive action.

We tabled this motion because the level of distrust among workers in semi-State companies today is at an all time high. They do not trust the Minister for Transport, Energy or Communications or the Government. This Government has overseen the secret sale of shares in Telecom Éireann——

Nonsense.

—— and stands idly by while the new partner in Telecom Éireann says it wants to sell the rest of the shares within three years. There has been no comment on that from the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications or any other party in this House. I can only assume from their silence that that was on the agenda and agreed from the first day.

The motion refers in particular to CIE. The industrial relations atmosphere in CIE today is septic. The Minister is sitting back and is not prepared to meet the unions or to take a hands on approach to resolving it. He does not have a transport policy for that company or a vision of where it should be going, but only an insensitive demand for cost cutting with no negotiations.

I met the unions in the past few days and they told me they cannot meet management. They have difficulty in sitting down with management as long as it insists that changes will be made on a take it or leave it basis. Is the Minister going to preside over a situation in CIE where the management lays down precisely what will be done and leaves no scope for negotiating that plan? Will he let the board lay down precisely what is going to happen for the workers in CIE with no room for negotiation or will he tell the board that it must negotiate change because changes were negotiated in that company for many years and were made?

The Minister has been studying his brief for two months. It is now time for him to get some work done in the very short time left to him as Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications. He should begin by ending the problems in CIE and restoring morale in that company.

The present industrial turmoil in CIE, to which Deputy Brennan has referred, is largely the result of the shabby treatment to which the workers have been subjected for the past two years since the rainbow Government of Fine Gael, Labour and Democratic Left took over.

The first target of the former Minister, Deputy Lowry, was the board of the company, appointed by his predecessors, and in particular the chairman. The company got caught up in an unseemly political controversy which had nothing to do with the staff, unions or management or its core business, but which took up so much time over many months that many other issues were left on the back burner. The former Minister knew all about cosy cartels, but people who live in glasshouse extensions should not throw stones. The whole sorry business was damaging to confidence in the company.

Successive Governments have legitimately been concerned about keeping down costs in CIE and limiting the annual expense to the taxpayer. Given the need for some ongoing State support for an essential public service — I refer mainly to railways — this was no excuse for trying to deny bus and railway workers their basic entitlements under the Programme for Competitiveness and Work last autumn. Where there is an exceptional situation, as happened in Aer Lingus a few years ago and in which I was deeply involved, workers are willing to make temporary sacrifices.

In many years dealing with the industrial relations problems of the State from March 1987 to end 1994, I found State workers extremely reasonable about these issues. They fight their case but are logical and understand the threats, strains, competition and difficulties in companies and always want to make the best decision for their workers and the company. On many occasions they made satisfactory arrangements with me to which they were prepared to adhere. It was totally lacking in realism to suppose that workers would continually negotiate major productivity improvements just in order to get their basic pay entitlement. I do not know who thought it up but that, effectively, is what happened and it is totally unjust, unreasonable, illogical and should be forgotten. I blame the former Minister and the Government for encouraging the board to take up an untenable position. All this inevitably soured industrial relations in the company before serious productivity discussions could begin. Realism was lacking.

Bus and train drivers are responsible for the safety of their passengers and the public and have demanding jobs. The way in which total pay is calculated may be a bit antiquated, relating in some cases to work practices of a bygone era. The bottom line is that, from the figures I have seen, I do not think either bus or train drivers are overpaid by any stretch of the imagination. There may be a case for rationalising how pay is calculated so that it fully reflects modern working conditions. The staff in these jobs have to adjust to modern working conditions and do so to the best of their ability. Train drivers have moved to the DART with all the problems that entails. The Minister will realise it is no longer a question of operating the lines and that many other things happen in the modern way of life which put stress and strain on drivers.

Public transport provision is a three way contract between the companies, the public and the Government. To keep this country on the move public transport, both bus and rail, have an important role to play. CIE has always been an easy target. Those who criticise public transport most are often those who rarely, if ever, use it. Within the resources available, those who work in the different CIE companies try to provide a quality service. When they do not, when buses are delayed by traffic congestion, it is often not the fault of anyone in the company. In the railways, and in recent times on the buses, the industrial relations record has been a good one. It was not always like that. When I was involved with many of its excellent negotiators at all levels they were reasonable and could not be described as they had been in previous years. By and large we are not subjected to prolonged public service strikes and social partnership has sought to make that a thing of the past.

Fianna Fáil will continue to support larnród Éireann, Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann. The present Minister, when Minister for Finance, will remember the controversies that contributed to an economic plan called Building on Reality, published in 1984 by the Fine Gael-Labour Coalition. It contained the sentence: "There will be no new substantial investment in railways", thus condemning them to a slow and lingering death. Fianna Fáil reversed that policy when we returned to office in 1987 and in 1994 negotiated with the European Union the largest investment in public transport that we have ever seen here. It amounted to nearly £600 million in mainline rail and public transport for the capital. Later this year a new modernised Dublin-Belfast rail service will be opened as a result of Fianna Fáil's success in those negotiations.

CIE needs investment to remain competitive but also to help the country as a whole to be competitive. I have no doubt that productivity negotiations conducted on a sensible basis could produce gains for the workers, the company and the travelling public without placing further burdens on the taxpayer. I have no doubt those involved in negotiations carried out in a proper fashion on behalf of staff would be glad to discuss these matters.

Attempts at brow-beating never work. The history of industrial relations in the State is such that any time attempts were made to force things they were bitterly rejected by staff. We all know how vital a functioning public transport system is to this country. An openness to positive change, which will have full Government support, is the frame of mind we need to create on all sides. We have ambitious plans to extend and improve public transport. In order to carry them out we will need, and I know we will get, the full co-operation of both management and unions.

This is a small country. In some areas we have had to devise our own model of advancement. The combination of economic policies introduced since 1987 on the basis of social partnership create a careful balance between wage moderation and tax cuts and between development initiatives and financial prudence. They have laid the basis for the longest periods of sustained growth with a high rate of job creation.

Changing conditions and European competition rules, in addition to the demands of the public for improvements in the service, will pose formidable challenges to all who work in our State companies. These companies are of key strategic importance and need the support of a friendly and sympathetic Government in helping them to overcome their difficulties and to adapt. Something they do not need is an unfriendly response. In this motion we ask the Government to stop this type of response.

The Minister, Deputy Dukes, must have been horrified when he examined the files at some of what has happened in the past two years. I am not here to criticise the Minister who has been in office for a short period but I ask him to adopt a different attitude. My starting point, as we move forward, is the comprehensive statement on the role of the semi-State sector contained in the Programme for Economic and Social Progress which I negotiated. There is no question, so far as Fianna Fáil is concerned, of dumping or getting rid of State companies just for the sake of it. Pragmatism, not ideology of either right or left, will best serve the State companies and their customers. When it comes to the crunch, the ideological bark is often worst than the bite. Where vital services are concerned, the interests of consumers and workers are paramount. Fianna Fáil will put people before politics. Workers need to have a greater sense of ownership in the companies in which they are employed and people need to have confidence in the service. Structures are secondary. The future can be exciting if we all work together and put behind us the divisive spirit which has been a feature of the Government's policy towards some semi-State companies.

I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:

"notes with approval the Government's major investment programme in the development and enhancement of public transport; commends the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications on the significant progress which has been achieved in implementing the mainline rail investment programme and the public transport elements of the strategy recommended by the Dublin Transportation Initiative; supports the proposed introduction of public service contracts which will place the Government's financial relationship with CIE on a firm, medium term, objective and transparent basis; acknowledges that CIE has to reduce its cost base and improve its efficiency if it is to remain viable and competitive; agrees that the necessary change has to be achieved through direct negotiations between CIE management and unions with the assistance of the State's industrial relations machinery and that ministerial intervention would inhibit rather than assist these negotiations; considers that industrial action will only damage the interests of CIE and its workforce and accordingly urges CIE management and unions to negotiate neces sary change on a basis of partnership and realism in keeping with Partnership 2000 and the Labour Court recommendation of 2 December 1996."

I was going to dignify Deputy Brennan's comments by describing them as an attack but instead I will describe them as utterly futile. He calls in his motion for initiatives and a White Paper to chart a future course for the development of the semi-State sector, yet he spent some time telling us how Fianna Fáil is so pragmatic in relation to the semi-State sector that it will deal with it on a case by case basis. What does he want? Does he want a mythical, illusory strategy for all the semi-State sector or does he want to deal with it on a case by case basis? It is very interesting that he should have said the Aer Lingus dispute is silly. I hope he is called to account for using that adjective.

I stand over it.

He ran out of steam very quickly on CIE. This is very interesting because I think he knows more than he pretends. I intend to show that he behaved very differently from the way he recommended tonight.

I reject Deputy Brennan's motion, but it gives me an opportunity to articulate the role of State bodies in our economy and the role of Government in dealing with these bodies. I also welcome the opportunity to expose once again the huge credibility gap between Deputy Brennan's vigour in Opposition and his total inaction when in Government with Cabinet responsibility for CIE.

CIE workers hold Deputy Brennan in the same esteem in which the people of Drogheda hold Oliver Cromwell.

Rubbish. Is this the best the Minister can do after two and a half months in office?

CIE workers remember well Deputy Brennan's initiatives on school transport and the Nitelink services when he attempted to prevent CIE from even being allowed to compete in these areas.

Has the Minister a problem with Nitelink services?

The Minister without interruption, please.

The Minister is against Nitelink services.

Perhaps Deputy Brennan would like to inform the House of how "hands on" his approach was when he had the Transport portfolio because I can find no traces of his hands on it apart from a thinly disguised hostility towards CIE when he occupied the office I now hold.

A particular irony about this motion, with which no one else in Fianna Fáil seemed ready to associate themselves until he wheeled Deputy Ahern into the House tonight——

There are many of us here.

The irony is that the State bodies to which the motion refers were set up in the main by Sean Lemass, who would turn in his grave if he knew the position his party's spokesman is taking in relation to State bodies. Those bodies were set up as commercial State bodies. I emphasise the word "commercial" because that is what they always should have been and must be if they are to survive in an era of increased competition and deregulation, driven from Europe in the best interests of consumers.

The second substantive point I want to make about these bodies is that they were set up as corporations or companies to ensure their independence from Ministers, Departments and politicians in their day-to-day operations. All Governments have adopted a "hands off" approach in dealing with commercial issues in State bodies and even more so in dealing with industrial relations matters within them. There are institutions and machinery of State for dealing with industrial relations matters in all companies, including State bodies. Even though Deputy Brennan may not have noticed it when he was a member of a Government, it has been the tradition of successive Governments to encourage employees in all companies to avail of this machinery to solve industrial relations problems. I intend to keep to that tradition. In this spirit, I am glad management and unions in all three CIE operating companies are using that machinery.

Political intervention would only make the atmosphere more fraught. The "hands on" approach which Deputy Brennan advocates from the safety of the Opposition benches is something to which Fianna Fáil Ministers for Transport rightly displayed a marked aversion in the past. For example, Deputy Cowen deployed the "masterly inactivity" principle to good effect when a national rail strike was threatened during his period in the office I hold.

All State bodies, with the exception of CIE, have had to deal with the effects of EU deregulation on their sectors. For some, such as Aer Lingus, it is already full blown deregulation, while for others, such as Telecom, it is partial deregulation now but with the prospect of full deregulation soon. Management and trade unions in these bodies accepted the inevitability of change and agreed on measures to manage it. It was not easy to achieve this agreement, particularly as it impacted on work practices and, consequently, on employee earnings, which had developed over decades under monopolistic shelter. Employees in these bodies and their trade unions realised that they had to adapt or die in the new competitive environment they were facing. I am glad to say that they adapted and used the Labour Relations Commission and the Labour Court to help them do so. I acknowledge the tremendous work done in this area by the Irish Congress of Trade Unions which has shown a much greater grasp of the reality facing us than Deputy Brennan.

Land transport is the last of these sectors to have to cope with deregulation. The pace of deregulation has been slower than some member states of the EU would wish but there is no gainsaying that the process has already commenced and will accelerate over the coming years. CIE management is already on record as saying it is not afraid of deregulation, nor should it be, and has informed me of its very clear strategic policies to cope with it as it comes. These strategies are essentially investment driven, with substantial financial support from the EU and Exchequer.

It is the shared vision of CIE management and trade unions to make CIE a profitable customer focused company, delivering high quality public transport services at competitive prices to its customers. This was clearly set out in a joint communiqué from CIE trade unions and management to all CIE staff last September. Deputy Brennan would do well to read that communiqué. I will quote some passages from the communiqué for the Deputy's delectation; it might encourage him to read all of it.

They [trade union officials] and their members saw at first hand the effects of these and other changes in CIE's Markets [referring to deregulation]. They were concerned that these were not being addressed in a more urgent manner.

The Trade Unions noted new pressures which are exerting themselves.

The threat of deregulation driven by European integration.

European restraint on State Aid.

Public Procurement policy changes.

Government is becoming intolerant of poor performance in some parts of the State Sector and is insisting on the adoption of more commercially focused performance criteria by these companies.

The CIE unions accept that in order to meet the new competitive pressures and to survive in the new changed economic environment in which they will be required to operate CIE, like all Commercial Semi-State companies, must undertake the same type of re-organisation and restructuring as was embarked upon by both private and public companies over the past decade. This has involved:

Significant changes in management style

changes in industrial relations processes

changes in worker and union attitudes to meet the challenges ahead.

There is much more in the communiqué in which Deputy Brennan will find a far more enlightened attitude and insight into what faces the CIE group of companies now, than anything he has said here tonight.

I seek to build on and develop the positive legacy of programmes and policies on public transport which I inherited from my predecessors. I have no difficulty in acknowledging the positive contributions, both in practical and in policy terms, which have been made in public transport by several of my recent predecessors. It is a pity to see those worthwhile contributions devalued by the kind of cynical political opportunism engaged in tonight by Deputy Brennan with his motion. It is a pity to see the notable achievement of Deputy Cowen, when he was Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications, in setting up the operational programme which is the framework for a major part of the investment programme now being engaged in by CIE, being devalued by Deputy Brennan.

As a result of recent positive and progressive policies on public transport which this Government has developed and pursued with great vigour, the CIE group is undertaking levels of capital investment which would have been undreamed of ten years ago. The projected investment programme for public transport between 1994 and 1999 amounts to more than £735 million and represents an unprecedented commitment by the Government to renew and develop public transport. CIE has already received £50 million in EU aid under the current round of Structural and Cohesion Fund assistance and significant further transfers will follow in line with the Operational Programme for Transport until the end of the decade. In addition, CIE receives annual subvention from the Exchequer which has been running at approximately £100 million in recent years.

That CIE investment programme, which is well tailored — I pay tribute to all those involved in setting it up including Deputy Cowen, the management and the unions in CIE — makes maximum use of EU Structural and Cohesion Fund assistance. However, neither the European Union nor the Exchequer can fully support CIE's investment needs. The CIE group must find a significant proportion of the necessary investment from its own resources. If it cannot provide the required matching finance, it will not be in a position to draw down all of the funding available from European Union sources. In addition to EU funded investment, CIE is also committed to substantial capital expenditure which will have to be funded entirely from its own resources. For example, £90 million of the planned £275 million mainline rail investment programme will not benefit from EU co-financing. The company's bus fleet replacement programme must be funded entirely from CIE's own resources. The CIE group is not in a position to fund investment through increased borrowing. The group's borrowings now stand at approximately £200 million. Servicing that level of borrowing is a serious enough burden on the group's finances and the CIE board has rightly decided that borrowing above and beyond that level cannot be undertaken. In addition, Members of this House and outside groups are constantly pressing for further worthwhile projects which are not included in the investment programme simply because all the available funding has been taken up. That is not a criticism of the projects but there is a limit to the resources that are available.

CIE's financial problems cannot be resolved by providing extra State subvention. The idea that the Exchequer could provide additional subvention of £40 million to £50 million every year on an indefinite basis is both unrealistic and undesirable. If CIE is to become competitive, it must reduce its costs. More State funds now to subsidise operational inefficiencies or restrictive work practices would simply postpone the necessary cost reductions, and at a considerable waste of scarce taxpayers' money.

The continuing need for restraint in public expenditure, arising from the Maastricht convergence criteria to which we are told Fianna Fáil also adheres, rules out any open-ended commitment to extra State financial support to fund an ever-increasing gap between CIE's expenditure and revenue. Having said that, the 1997 subvention to CIE has increased by more than the rate of inflation for the first time in many years. At £105 million, it is more than £5.5 million more than last year's provision. This will provide a good basis on which to proceed with the introduction of public service contracts between the State and CIE.

The other obvious quick fix would be to increase bus and train fares substantially. I doubt if even Deputy Brennan is so native as to advocate that as a solution.

Fare increases of the order required are not the solution either as they would simply drive CIE's customers away to other modes of transport and to lower cost private sector competitors. Such a development would be totally counterproductive, damaging the interests of CIE and its staff and undermining the Government's objective of attracting more users to public transport, reducing private car usage and relieving traffic congestion.

There is no "quick fix" to the problems facing CIE. The competitive climate within which the group operates is changing in line with what has happened in the air transport and road haulage sectors and in energy and telecommunications. The key feature of these changes is liberalisation which simply means the introduction of market forces and competition. What this means for CIE is that competitors will seek to attract customers away from the company. The competition CIE already faces will increase and intensify and the changing regulatory framework will encourage this in the interest of the customer. CIE will have to compete on cost, price and quality if it is to keep its customers. I do not think Deputy Brennan could disagree with that. The liberalisation of the aviation and road haulage sectors, to which I have just referred, has brought clear benefits for the economy and the individual consumer. While the pace of change in the public transport sector may be slower, the same imperatives are at work and the ultimate outcome is equally inevitable. The only question is how quickly change will happen and how well prepared we will be to meet the challenges that change will bring.

There is a growing recognition throughout Europe of the important part public transport can play in tackling the twin problems of congestion and environmental pollution. There is also a recognition that this can only be accomplished on a basis which recognises the realities of the market place, and that it will require a fundamental reorganisation of the structures of public transport. A number of European countries have already embarked on this course. Major restructuring of public transport has taken place in Britain; other countries like Germany, Sweden, France and the Netherlands either already have or are in the process of modifying the structures of their public transport systems. The models may differ from one country to another but the direction of change is the same in every case.

It would be foolish and simplistic to think the Irish economy or any significant part of it, such as the public transport sector, could ignore these developments. Apart from anything else, the evolution of European Union policies and legal instruments will ensure that public transport liberalisation will happen here the same as everywhere else in the European Union. While liberalisation will inevitably involve a period of painful and difficult adjustment in the sector, the degree of pain and level of difficulty will depend, in large measure, on the way those most affected decide to address the issues. If the path chosen is that of denial, non-participation or blind resistance to change, then change, when it inevitably comes, will find the sector unprepared and new low cost market entrants, be they domestic or foreign based, will rapidly and permanently erode CIE's customer base.

Deputy Brennan made an extraordinary suggestion that the pace of entry of new competitors must be carefully managed in consultation with the social partners. In saying that Deputy Brennan dribbled a bibful. If we had a liberalised market, subject only to the type of regulation proposed by Deputy Brennan, there would be no question of carefully managing the pace of entry of new competitors.

The Minister wants a free for all.

There would be no question of consultation with the social partners about when and where new entrants come into the market.

There should be.

If the Deputy reflected for even half a moment before emitting those howlers and dropping those clangers, he would know that even in a highly regulated market it is extremely difficult to determine the pace of entry of new competitors and to manage it carefully.

The Minister prefers jungle competition.

That has not happened up to now even in our restricted monopolistic market.

We now know where the Minister stands. He supports a free for all.

Deputy Brennan should know that members of his party, like members of every other party, beat a path to the door of the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communication urging him to license new services, some in competition with CIE and others in areas not served by CIE. If it is not possible to carefully manage the pace of entry of competitors in a closed monopolistic market, it will certainly not be possible to do so in a market that is being liberalised.

I am glad we know where the Minister stands.

The sooner the better people like Deputy Brennan stops trying to cod the public and the workers of CIE. When that happens we will make more progress in ensuring that CIE remains the preferred option of the majority of people seeking public transport.

The Minister wants a free for all.

If the people fall for the siren's song that Deputy Brennan is trying to foist on them — something in which he, Deputy Cowen and Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn do not believe — he will have done more damage to the workers in CIE, their families and the public service than anybody has been able to do.

Let us hear the Minister without interruption please.

Those are the realities.

As the Minister will not even meet the workers of CIE, he should not lecture me about them. He should stop lecturing and get down to work.

Deputy Brennan did not do much as Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications.

The Minister has been only two and a half months in office and there have been two strikes.

There shall be no further interruptions

Even though he would like to pretend otherwise, one of the things Deputy Brennan did not do while Minister was to negotiate industrial relations issues with the unions. Those are the realities that CIE management and workers face. Deputy Brennan should read the joint communiqué. The workers know more than the Deputy about the problems facing them.

The Fianna Fáil motion calls for more strategic planning and even, God help us, a White Paper. Deputy Brennan regularly uses the phrase "paralysis by analysis". What did he propose tonight? He proposed the introduction of a new White Paper and a new strategy because he does not have the gumption to make proposals about the real issues that face CIE and its workers in the future.

I want the Minister to meet the workers.

Deputy Brennan's jibes about failure to develop strategic plans are nothing more than the ritual tub thumping we are used to from Fianna Fáil. More than any other Administration in modern times, this Government has articulated a strategic vision for the future of the CIE group based on clear and concrete goals rather than on platitudes.

The Minister has brought the company to a standstill.

Deputy Brennan knows well——

There have been two strikes in his two and a half months in office. That is not bad work.

——that if we followed his recommendation there would be a standstill. The company would fall apart and in five years' time we would be talking about the demise of CIE, as we almost had to do in regard to Aer Lingus which——

The Minister is presiding over the demise of CIE today.

——his successor, Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn, neglected benignly, yet complained about what Deputy Brennan left behind him.

The Government's strategic objectives for the CIE group are to provide effective and high quality public transport services, to give value for money to the public transport user and the taxpayer, to develop a new industrial relations culture based on realism, partnership and co-operation, to be more competitive and consumer driven and to meet the needs of customers. I challenge Deputy Brennan and other members of Fianna Fáil to say they disagree with any one of those objectives or to outline a way to achieve them other than through investment-led growth.

There is another way. The Minister should talk to the workers.

The CIE group of companies, the Government and the workers are clearly committed to those objectives, but that could be put at risk by the meddling Deputy Brennan chooses to call a hands on policy, the kind of policy in which successive Ministers for Transport, Energy and Communications, including those from Fianna Fáil, correctly refused to get involved.

Despite this, Fianna Fáil is calling for a strategic plan and a White Paper, the stock response of people more interested in platitudes and cheap jibes than the development of the company. Politically motivated pot stirring of the kind indulged in by Deputy Brennan is bad for CIE workers, the companies involved, passengers, users of the services and for the country. I hope at the end of this debate we will finally see the dawning of realisation. I am not sure his colleagues can be blamed equally in this regard. Most of them have a much better view of the reality. I hope Deputy Brennan realises that if we are to have investment led growth in a company such as CIE, the cost base must be right. It must match competition. The jingoism in which Deputy Brennan indulged is against the interests of the company, its workers and customers.

The Minister is against the interests of the company.

I wish to share time with Deputy Lenihan.

I am sure that is satisfactory.

I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate. Deputy Dukes made an interesting contribution. The Minister referred to the necessary changes being achieved through direct negotiations between CIE management and unions. Having met many workers from Bus Éireann and Iarnród Éireann, I am informed that there have been no negotiations. This is amazing as we were told that the vision plan for CIE was proposed by the workers. While CIE management has had numerous meetings it appears that the views of workers were not taken into account.

The basic pay of CIE workers is among the lowest in the semi-State sector. Many public meetings take place in the run up to a general election. This and water charges, the two biggest issues in my constituency at present, will be discussed at them.

One of the recommendations of the cost review was to cease freight train operations on the Limerick-Claremorris line where savings of £250,000 would be effected. The Minister is aware that Fr. Micheál McGréil and Councillor Martin O'Toole are two members of the Western InterCounty Railway Committee. For many years they have attempted not only to maintain but to upgrade the line especially between Collooney and Sligo.

The headline announcing that 800 jobs were to be lost at Iarnród Éireann, at a saving of £30 million, was a major shock. Built into the proposal was the closure of two freight lines in the west together with 21 small freight depots. There was much confusion about this because the Minister rightly said that while we obtained funding for the mainline rails, including upgrading of all the stations, there was another proposal to close the Limerick-Claremorris line.

I am one of those who hoped that, given the small amount of money involved, the CollooneyLimerick line could be upgraded and possibly opened for a passenger service. CIE has stated that it is not present policy to bring this western line into operation, but it will keep it in mind for the possible diversion of second-hand tracks to improve the line. As we have heard nothing but comments on mainline rail, will the Minister indicate if this will happen?

I questioned CIE on a number of occasions as to the possibility of increased timber transportation on these lines especially to Clonmel and Waterford. I was told that Iarnród Éireann has been involved in the haulage of timber since 1994 and that 90,000 tons were transported to the Medite and Louisiana-Pacific plants in Clonmel and Waterford. It is hoped to transport more than that, possibly over 100,000 tons, this year. In addition, Iarnród Éireann plan to upgrade the stations in Tuam and Gort and to introduce railcars on the line. Given this, we are receiving confusing signals from the company regarding its proposals for the railways in the western region.

I hope that Coillte will decide to make greater use of the railway for timber transport. In my meetings with the company. I have found its approach positive. It has referred to the transport of 100,000 tons this year, indeed given the Masonite project in County Leitrim, the Sligo-Leitrim area alone will produce 50,000 tons in 1997. Great possibilities exist, given the transport of timber and timber residue, goods such as cement, coal, oil and the fish processing plants in the western region. According to Coillte, four trains were used last year, whereas nine trains will be in operation per day in 1997.

The transporting of heavy goods on the railways would also have the beneficial effect of saving our roads infrastructure. According to The Mayo News of 5 July 1995, the Minister for Tourism and Trade announced the possible reopening of the Claremorris-Collooney railway line. He is very positive about it. I have met many previous Ministers and I look forward to meeting the Minister. I hope he will support this project.

Public and business support for our railways is needed. The commercial State bodies report of May 1995 referred to the need to increase the overall numbers on the mainline rail. It mentioned that the DART service had levelled off as regards passenger numbers. There is great competition from car and coach transport. In the context of European countries, Ireland has the second lowest number of railway passengers per head of population. Many of the issues referred to in the report could be addressed if the train service was improved. I look forward to the funding for mainline rail referred to by the Minister.

More carriages are required on the Western services in addition to more flexible timetables, especially at weekends because there continues to be bottlenecks on the Galway road. The business sector can also help, indeed assistance has been pledged at chamber of commerce meetings I have attended to ensure that a service is maintained on the railways.

There is still a threat to the freight line from the cost review, despite lifting the deadline of 20 December. An answer is needed on this. If we cannot get the extra business and the line must go then jobs will be lost. I have attended meetings, for example in Gort, where people spoke about the time when students commuted to second level schools by train and how they would do so again if the service was provided.

The Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach with responsibility for western development, Deputy Carey, has attended many meetings with me. I know he is very committed to providing funding. He has referred to the provision of £200 million to help with the development of the infrastructure in the west. I hope he will play his part to ensure that this part of the western development corridor will be maintained. In addition to passenger and freight considerations, it is a tourism project.

The link from Rosslare to Waterford, Limerick and Sligo is important, both from the road and rail point of view. There are also important links at Shannon Airport and at Horan International Airport, Knock. If we are to have proper planning in the western region we must have this infrastructure.

I hope this stretch of railway will not meet the fate of other railways, some of which were taken up years ago. Indeed a stretch of this railway north of Tuam was to be taken up but was saved by the intervention of the then Minister for Tourism and Transport, Deputy Séamus Brennan. The line was maintained with the help of FÁS schemes and voluntary efforts. CIE and Iarnród Éireann had nothing to do with it, although they sent a bill for maintenance when none was undertaken.

I hope the Minister will support this regional route and that there will be negotiations on the difficulties in Iarnród Éireann. I hope there will be meaningful negotiations because if it is a case of "take it or leave it," no progress will be made. The Minister should intervene at this point and take a hands on approach to the difficulty.

I congratulate the Minister on his recent appointment. I wish him well in what may be a brief tenure in office. He has settled into a routine of invective with rapidity since his elevation to the Front Bench and I was amazed to hear him mention Mr. Seán Lemass. I read the 1944 debate when the transport Bill was introduced to establish CIE. It is obvious that the intention of Mr. Lemass was to set up a comprehensive, national, public transport service which would pay its way. I do not understand how the Minister could suggest or insinuate that Mr. Lemass was not a hands-on politician. He always took seriously his responsibilities as shareholder in the various State enterprises he founded.

As shareholder.

He also pointed out that it was difficult to draw a line between day to day operations and strategic planning, which is the responsibility of a shareholder in any company. It cannot be devolved to management which is in charge of day to day operations. It is a public service for which the Minister has responsibility in the House. I accept industrial relations matters——

There is a very clear line between strategic planning and day to day management. Even Deputy Brennan could explain it to the Deputy.

Calm down, Minister.

Deputy Lenihan without interruption.

The motion calls for strategic planning for CIE. I noticed the Minister set out the strategic objectives of the Government for the CIE group, one of which is to develop a new industrial relations culture based on realism, partnership and co-operation. I do not know on what planet the Minister has been recently because, as a Deputy with a substantial number of CIE group employees in my constituency, I have not found that realism, partnership and co-operation characterises current industrial relations in the CIE group. That serious difficulty does not simply derive from problems relating to pay and conditions of service, but it is part of the problem.

Everybody accepts that bus workers have a responsible task to perform. Anybody who travels round the city at regular intervals notices how enormously difficult is their work, but the effect of the proposed rationalisation for bus workers in the city will be a substantial decrease in their remuneration. The Minister hardly expects a group of workers in a highly responsible position to accept a reduction in their remuneration when the Government is considering making special provision for nurses. That matter has not yet been settled but I am sure it will be resolved before the tenure of office of the current Minister ends. The CIE group and the Government must consider this issue because bus workers have a very responsible job and, in substance, it has been proposed that their remuneration should be reduced.

Apart from the specific issue relating to the pay and conditions of bus drivers, I detect a more general problem in the workforce of the CIE group. They are far from convinced that the Government — this also applies to successive Governments — has entertained an overall strategic plan for public transport in the State. The Luas project has generated great scepticism in the city about whether there are strategic objectives for the public transport system. There is a view that the amount of investment which Luas will entail and the limited coverage it will provide in terms of public transport in the city will mean the other forms of public transport, such as bus or conventional rail services, will be starved of resources. They will not be in a position to provide the type of public transport system the city obviously needs when one considers the amount of traffic congestion. This view is widely entertained among CIE group workers in Dublin and they need specific reassurance from the shareholder on the matter. The substantial amounts of money involved must be of interest and the purpose of the plea for a strategic plan or a White Paper on the industry is to make clear the longterm objectives and the relative priorities of various planned investments.

I am concerned about safety with regard to the cost cutting plan for the railway service. My party's spokesperson outlined the extent of the cuts involved. The rail service in the State has a bad safety record given the number of serious incidents in the last two decades. Is there wisdom in allowing further redundancies in the rail service? Although the Minister outlined the investment programme for the rail service, there is no investment programme in place to extend and improve the suburban rail lines.

Given the extension of Dublin into the surrounding counties of Kildare and Meath and the vast increase in population in the western periphery of the city, there is scope for substantial investment in the conventional rail network involving improved carriages, the use of the tunnel around the old loop line to Amiens Street and the development of park and ride facilities for country commuters who could leave their cars at suburban stations and travel by train into the city. None of this appears to be planned by CIE and I question the strategic quality of the decision making in CIE. This is why my party is calling for a White Paper.

Regarding Dublin Bus, I congratulate CIE for its work to date on the quality bus corridors which have provided substantial consumer satisfaction. The general view in the Dublin area is that it is an excellent innovation. However, there is room for an extension and intensification of that approach in the form of the reservation of road space for buses. This would cost a great deal less than the amount earmarked for the Luas project although, in substance, it would have the same effect. There would be a reserved, dedicated public transport route without overhead cables, tracks on the ground or half the city grid-locked for three years. There would be a much more efficient public transport service without any of those consequences. The development of the bus service in Dublin is the correct route to take in terms of making the public transport service as efficient, accessible and consumer friendly as possible.

Does the Deputy want to abandon Luas? Is that what he is recommending?

I would like to hear the Minister's thinking on Luas. The Minister had substantial reservations about this matter previously.

The Minister has appointed a thinker for him.

The Deputy wants to abandon Luas.

Deputy Lenihan without interruption.

Will the Minister outline his strategic view of Luas or whatever strategic view he can obtain——

There is a great view on the Harcourt Street line.

——from the distinguished consultant whom he has retained to advise him in that respect. It is not clear that the Minister has finalised his thinking on Luas.

The Deputy should read the Act. It was passed last year.

The legislation was passed but the Government lost it on Second Stage and had to reintroduce it. The Act is a facilitative measure which enables certain steps to be taken. It does not require them to be taken. It enables the Minister to take certain actions and there may be a case for some of those actions. I suggest that the bus service——

The Deputy is suggesting that we abandon Luas.

I did not say that. I have been careful to outline the difficulties I envisage with Luas. The problem facing us with regard to Luas is that the planning has proceeded to such an advanced stage that it is an irreversible project. Although the Minister's instincts as a sensible and distinguished Government backbencher might have been to put Luas underground and that the exercise might be a white elephant, he discovered on entering office that matters have proceeded too far. It is similar to the outbreak of World War I; the railway timetables are in command and there is little the Minister can do about them. My reading of the Minister's mind on the Luas project——

The Deputy is not telepathic.

Debate adjourned.
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