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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 26 Feb 1998

Vol. 487 No. 8

Order of Business.

It is proposed to take No. 11a, Finance Bill, 1998, Allocation of Time Motion for Select Committee; No. 3, the Plant Varieties (Proprietary Rights) (Amendment) Bill, 1997, Order for Second Stage and Second Stage; No. 23, Statements on Iraq to be taken at 1 p.m.; Statements on Irish Registered Non-resident Companies shall be taken today following the announcement of Matters on the Adjournment under Standing Order 21.

It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that No. 11a shall be decided without debate and the proceedings on the Second Stage of No. 3, if not previously concluded, shall be adjourned at 1 p.m. The following arrangements shall apply in relation to No. 23: the statements, if not previously concluded, shall be adjourned at 2.30 p.m.; the opening statement of a Minister or Minister of State and of the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael and Labour parties and of each other Member called upon shall not exceed 10 minutes in each case; Members may share time and a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a statement of reply which shall not exceed ten minutes.

The following arrangements shall apply in relation to the Statements on Irish Registered Non-Resident Companies; the statements, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 4.45 p.m.; the statement of the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment or the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael and Labour parties and of each other Member called upon shall not exceed ten minutes in each case; Members may share time and the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment or the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment shall be called upon not later than 4.30 p.m. to take questions for a period not exceeding 15 minutes.

The Opposition parties have received no notice of the Order of Business for the first time I can remember. This proposal has not been distributed.

The Deputy does not like what he is hearing.

We do not know what the Taoiseach is talking about because no Order of Business was distributed to the Whips this morning and we cannot agree to a proposal arranged at a crisis meeting of the Taoiseach and his Ministers this morning.

The Chair must put the proposals as outlined by the Taoiseach. There are three proposals to be put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 11a agreed?

No. On that matter——

On a point of order.

I am putting the proposal on No. 11a. Is it agreed?

I wish to speak on that matter Sir.

On a point of order, this is scandalous.

Question put: "That the proposal on No. 11a be agreed."

Deputies

Vótáil.

As no teller has been appointed for the Níl side I declare the question is carried in accordance with Standing Order 68.

We now come to the remaining proposals to be put to the House on the Order of Business. The next proposal deals with No. 3.

Thank you for calling me and I assume that you accept you ought to have called me when I rose on the previous matter.

The Deputy cannot assume that.

If that is the case it is the first time in the history of the House the Leader of the Opposition has not been called on a matter put on the Order of Business. My concern about accepting this proposal is that the House operates on the basis of co-operation between Government and Opposition Whips. That is how we are able to conduct orderly business. One element of co-operation is that the Order of Business for each day is circulated in advance to the Opposition and is, indeed, negotiated to a degree with it on the basis that the Government has the final say.

In this case for the first time for many years the Order of Business contains new matter which was not circulated to the Opposition and the question being put is part of that. It is probably the first time ever it was not circulated to the Opposition beforehand. Before we agree this matter, will the Taoiseach tell me why the Order of Business was not circulated to the Opposition in the normal way and why the Government did not abide by the normal procedures for co-operation in the House?

The Order of Business is identical to the one that would have been discussed, with the addition of a debate on non-resident accounts. I regret that was not included earlier, but the Government Whip's office was made aware at 10.05 a.m. that a matter was being raised under Standing Order 31 and it was felt appropriate that we should allow time today for a debate on the issue. It is an issue of some public importance that dominates the media this morning. The Tánaiste is in the air so I was unable to contact her.

She is in the air quite a bit lately.

The Government jet is busy.

She is travelling between one official engagement and another at Shannon Airport. We are offering to the Opposition, which I thought would be helpful, a debate on this issue today by way of statements and questions and answers rather than let it drift into next week. We have used this practice to deal with urgent matters on many occasions in successive Governments over many years.

Why was the Opposition not consulted in the time available? Why did the Government not avail of Standing Order 31 instead of adopting a different procedure? Surely this House is governed by Standing Orders.

Exactly.

I presume that is the Government's view or it would not allow a debate today. Why did it not accept a debate under Standing Order 31?

I remind the House that we are speaking on the proposal to deal with No. 3, Plant Varieties (Proprietary Rights) (Amendment) Bill. That is the motion before the House and that is what we have to decide on.

(Interruptions.)

I have a long speech on that matter.

If Members allow the House to proceed, we will reach the proposal about which they are concerned.

We are dealing with the way in which the Order of Business is being taken and put before the House.

This is total disregard for the matter in question.

It is simply a matter of time. I accept that the Whips, who order the business of the House successfully, cannot foresee issues that arise at 10.05 in the morning.

Who is the Taoiseach trying to cod?

I am trying to answer.

There are things called telephones.

The Deputy should have more manners.

This is only an excuse.

Why did the Government Whip not contact the Opposition Whips about the matter? Is the Government trying to manufacture what takes place on the Order of Business? It is trying to provoke a row.

Does the Opposition want a debate on the matter?

I can understand the Government's embarrassment. There is a matter of courtesy and competence at issue here. Courtesy would demand that any variation in Standing Orders for today's Order of Business would, at best, have been communicated by fax to the relevant Opposition Whips' offices and, at worst, due to the exigencies of time, they would have received a telephone call. Neither happened. I appreciate, as the Taoiseach stated, the validity of Standing Order No. 31 was recognised and rather than have the Chair rule it in order, the Government offered statements. We are all familiar with that practice, but the House has been insulted by the behaviour and incompetence of the Government's Whip's office by not communicating with us either verbally or in writing about this change.

If the Deputy does not want a debate he should say so.

The Deputy will have to answer to the Taoiseach, I am merely stating that the Deputy's competence on this issue is in question.

The Government was told that the section 31 motion would be tabled.

Does Deputy Quinn want a debate on the matter?

It is a matter of fact that Deputy Brennan knew at 10.25 a.m. but did not make a telephone call or send a fax to the Opposition Whips. That is some performance. We know why he is not in the Cabinet.

Does the Deputy want a debate? He has turned very nasty in the last couple of weeks.

Please allow Deputy Quinn to ask his question.

Having known that the Chair was likely to grant a debate under Standing Order 31 and having regard to the nature of the matter, the Government proceeded to determine, without consultation with the Whips, the manner and method by which this matter would be addressed.

Exactly, despite the Standing Order 31 motion.

There was discourtesy followed by an arbitrary decision as to how the matter would be addressed bearing in mind that the party that raised this issue in the first place will not be party to these arrangements under existing Standing Orders. The arrangement before us is simply not acceptable and I suggest that the Whips meet to discuss the format that should be adopted to decide business today. Do I take it from what the Taoiseach said that the Tánaiste, who is central to the debate, is not available this morning and will, perhaps, be available in the afternoon? Will she, rather than the Minister of State, deal with the matter?

The Tánaiste is on business in Brussels and is returning to attend another function.

In Limerick.

We endeavoured to contact her about 10.10 a.m. I do not know what the Ceann Comhairle's position will be in regard to the Standing Order 31 motion. I thought that as a matter of courtesy to the House we offered time for a debate on important issues. If the House is not satisfied with the way the time has been dealt with, the matter can be agreed among the Whips. We have no difficulty with that. I resent the insinuation that when time is offered to debate a major issue we are being unhelpful to the House. What happened this morning relates to a time factor.

The Taoiseach dictates the time.

I think only one motion under Standing Order 31 has been granted in the 21 years I have been a Member. To make the assumption that the Ceann Comhairle would have repeated that 21 year old rule this morning is some hell of an assumption and I certainly did not make it. I would be satisfied if the Whips meet and decide whether Members want a debate on this issue, which I thought was of some importance, and the time they want for the debate.

I appreciate what the Taoiseach said, but there are two issues involved. The first relates to the normal courtesy of time and communication. Some 25 — or at least 15 minutes — elapsed between the decision being made and the Opposition being informed. Fax machines or telephones were not availed of. We were not consulted in any way. The first we knew of the variation on this morning's Order of Business was when the Ceann Comhairle informed me that as statements were to be held later today the Standing Order motion fell. That was the first I heard of it. In the course of the Taoiseach speaking, the order was delivered to me in the Chamber and not, I understand, to members of other Opposition parties. I propose that the Whips meet immediately after we dispose of the Order of Business and agree a formula on how the matter should be dealt with. It is essential that the Tánaiste is in the House to answer questions. I gather she is flying from Brussels to Shannon.

A by-election will be held there shortly.

She is attending an official function at Shannon.

Will she be here by 1 p.m.?

In fairness to the Government Whip and to the Tánaiste, we cannot read the Opposition's mind every morning. We plan our functions a little more in advance than 25 minutes. The Whips spent most of the time this morning——

The Taoiseach should not be moaning.

The Deputy should listen. He was in Government before and made a mess of many things.

Things are not getting better.

What about the duty free issue?

Order, please.

It takes some time to arrange matters. I understand the Tánaiste might be available in the afternoon, but I am sure that can be clarified. I received the Order of Business as I walked in the door.

The Government is giving the distinct impression of panic and improvisation in not knowing what it is doing.

Does the Deputy want a debate on this matter?

He should, therefore, do something constructive about it.

Will the Taoiseach agree, given that the situation in Iraq has receded in urgency at least for the time being, that the one and a half hours allocated, at the Opposition's request, for the debate on Iraq be deferred until next week and that the extra hour and a half be added to the debate on the matter that was originally designed to be raised under Standing Order 31?

The suggestion has already been made by Deputy Quinn that the Whips meet after the Order of Business and agree the time.

We cannot order the business without agreement.

I have accepted that. It is a regular occurrence that we leave matters for the Whips at the Order of Business. We do that every second week. There is no difficulty with that.

It is not a regular occurrence. We have all the facts before us today and we should make a decision now. We can allocate that extra hour and a half by agreement. I have no doubt that we do not need a Whips' meeting as they are all in the Chamber and we can agree to allocate that extra hour and a half for the debate. I understand it is agreed.

Recall the Taoiseach.

We are agreeable that that time should be devoted to the debate. I underline the point made by Deputy Quinn about the exclusion of my party from these exchanges. The Taoiseach knows very well——

(Interruptions.)

Baby Spice wants to make a contribution. The Taoiseach knows very well that his Government Whip could have made a telephone call. Speaking of plant varieties I hope the Taoiseach will require the Minister of State, Deputy Treacy, before the debate starts today to withdraw the utter calumny he sought to perpetrate last night in the knowledge that it was untrue.

That does not arise at this stage. We still have——

He did not care whether it was true or false. He said it because it sounded good.

Is it agreed that the Whips will meet?

I propose an amendment that No. 23 be dropped.

We are not on No. 23. The item before the House is the proposal for dealing with No. 3. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 3 agreed to? Agreed. We now come to the proposal for dealing with No. 23.

I propose that the statements on the matter of the Irish registered non-resident companies be extended by an hour and a half to commence at 1 o'clock, at the time envisaged for the statements on Iraq, and that the Government agrees that the statements on Iraq be taken next week. That would allow a debate of approximately two and a half hours rather than one hour for this subject. Will the Taoiseach agree to that proposal? I do not think we can make an order in the House without a specific proposal. A meeting of the Whips is not a specific proposal that can be agreed in the House. Given that there is probably agreement on this matter, I suggest the order be amended here by agreement to allow that extra hour and a half for the debate.

I agree that No. 23, statements on Iraq, should not be taken and that the time allowed, one and a half hours, should be merged with the time available for statements on Irish registered non-resident companies, subject to agreement by the Whips. We should make a decision on the floor of the House on the overall time for the debate. The necessary changes to be made to No. 4 on the Order of Business in relation to the allocation of time would properly be the subject of detailed discussion by the Whips and a variation can be introduced in the House in due course. I suggest that from 1 o'clock we start with statements on Irish registered non-resident companies and if the Tánaiste is not available at that time no doubt the Minister of State can lead the debate and avail of the opportunity to set the record straight in relation to the allegations he made against Deputy Rabbitte yesterday.

If the Government decision was made at 10.05 a.m., a phone call to the Whips at that time could have avoided much lost time in relation to this matter. I propose that No. 23 be dropped from the schedule today.

Such a proposal cannot be made by the Deputy. It is the prerogative of the Taoiseach to amend the Order of Business.

I am entitled to make a proposal but if the Taoiseach will not accept it that is fine.

The proposal is not in order. It is the prerogative of the Taoiseach to amend the Order of business.

I propose that No. 23 be deleted from today's schedule and scheduled for next week. I propose that No. 4, statements on Irish registered non-resident companies include a slot for Democratic Left. It would be a complete nonsense to have that debate today without having the person who raised this question in the House included in the debate.

Given that events have moved on and Members do not want statements on Iraq, which have been sought for a number of weeks, that is fine by me.

That is not what was said.

Does the Deputy want the debate today?

We did not say we do not want a debate.

I am dealing only with today's Order of Business, I will do next week's Order of Business next week.

Deputy Bruton should sit down and relax.

The Taoiseach should not misrepresent the Opposition or make personal remarks of the kind which have been made about the Opposition Whip if he wants good relations in the House.

All that is wrong with Deputy Bruton is that he could not rant on about non-resident accounts and go off canvassing. The fact is he now has to stay here.

That the Taoiseach would make a personal remark of that kind demeans his office. As it happens, although I was canvassing all day yesterday and the day before, apart from the Order of Business, I intend to be here all day today. I am delighted the debate is taking place. I can show the Taoiseach my diary to let him know I will be here for the entire day. I will be pleased to participate in the debate.

(Interruptions.)

Will the Taoiseach withdraw the personal remarks he made in regard to the Opposition Whip which are not conducive to good relations in this House, not in the interests of the Government and not worthy of a Taoiseach?

They are political remarks.

Deputy Dempsey's standards of politics are not mine.

Deputy Bruton's standards of politics are much lower.

Both Deputies may be from the same county but——

Is the Taoiseach withdrawing No. 23?

(Interruptions.)

Order, please.

As I understand it, the proposal is that the statements on Iraq will not take place this week——

Saddam will not mind about that.

——that we correlate the time of that debate to make sufficient time for the debate on Irish registered non-resident companies and that the Whips work out the detail. The Tánaiste will not be here at 1 o'clock but may be here about an hour later. I wish to correct one issue which was stated inadvertently that the Government made a decision at 10.05 a.m. The Government heard of the request for a Standing Order 31 debate at 10.05 a.m. and tried to contact the Tánaiste. In the normal course of events if a Standing Order 31 debate was taken — I have seen it taken only once in 21 years — it would start immediately. That is a nonsense because one could not prepare for a proper debate. The reason they are not taken is that one cannot start an intelligent debate immediately. I thought this morning it was extremely helpful to the House, on the issue that has arisen, that we gave time today, even on a limited Dáil day, but unfortunately that is not accepted by some Members of the Opposition. So far as anyone may have thought I said something derogatory about Deputy Barrett, I did not but he was seeking to interrupt me. In the normal course of events I was involved in cross-exchanges with him.

On a point of information, the Taoiseach should seriously look at the advice he is getting in relation to Standing Orders. A Standing Order No. 31 debate has occurred twice in the past 15 years and on both occasions were raised by me. The House, having agreed to a Standing Order 31 debate, then fixes the time for the debate, normally that evening. When the Tánaiste comes into the House I expect not alone the Minister of State, Deputy Treacy, to apologise to Deputy Rabbitte——

We cannot anticipate the debate.

——but the Tánaiste to apologise for concealing important information from the House.

May I take it that proposals Nos. (3) and (4) are being withdrawn and that the Whips will seek to reach agreement on the allocation of time?

On a point of order, is it not the case that the order to extend the time available has to be made in the House, that this cannot be done unilaterally by the Whips? What we need to do is accept the Taoiseach's proposal to extend the time available by one and a half hours as an amendment to the Order of Business.

The order can be made later.

The Taoiseach would have to come into the House to make a new order. It would be better to do it now. There would then be no need for a Whips meeting.

It is my understanding that the Taoiseach has proposed that No. 23, statements on Iraq, be deferred, that statements on Irish registered non-resident companies be taken at 1 p.m., that proposals Nos. (3) and (4) be dropped and that the Whips should meet to agree new arrangements in relation to the allocation of time. Is that a correct interpretation?

In regard to the statements on Irish registered non-resident companies, it would be helpful if the report on Ireland produced by the financial action task force established by the OECD to investigate money laundering in various jurisdictions was made available for consideration during the debate.

There is no legislation pending.

Is legislation being planned to extend the requirement to report suspected money laundering transactions to those involved in company formation and others not currently covered? Will the companies legislation on the Government's list be introduced soon to deal with the issue of the suspicious formation of companies for money laundering or tax evasion purposes? Will it be given priority in light of our recent experience?

The issue of Irish registered non-resident companies has been under examination for some considerable time to see what action can be taken under company or tax law. It has been looked at by a number of interdepartmental and ministerial groups. The view is that amendments to company and tax law are probably required. Most of the Irish registered non-resident companies are probably not productive but some are extremely important to US multinational companies in particular which legally use them to a considerable extent. The legislation, which is complex, needs to be amended to ensure that those we would be far better off without, of which there are many, are dealt with without affecting the overall structure of company or tax law. That is what the interdepartmental groups have been working on for some considerable time. I hope they will conclude their deliberations during 1998.

I thank the Taoiseach for his reply but does he realise that he has contradicted what the Minister of State, Deputy Treacy, said on television last night?

No such thing.

I know exactly what the Minister of State said.

A total conflict.

We cannot discuss the matter now. We are on the Order of Business.

Two days ago the Minister for Public Enterprise replied to questions about the various State subsidies paid to Ryanair. She did not inform the House of the arrangements between the State and Ryanair for the provision——

The Deputy has sought permission to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

The Minister for Public Enterprise indicated on radio this morning that she intends to inform the House of the details of the arrangements. When does she intend to do this?

The Deputy has sought permission to raise the matter on the Adjournment. It will receive consideration.

If permission is not granted, when will the Minister for Public Enterprise come into the House?

We cannot anticipate the outcome.

Given the widespread public concern about genetic engineering, when will the Government's policy paper on the subject be ready? Will we have an opportunity to debate it in the House?

It will be produced at the end of March.

It has been reported that on Tuesday the Cabinet agreed to place a limit on the expenses to be paid to witnesses who appear before the swimming tribunal. Will the Taoiseach confirm that by placing a limit on expenses in getting at the truth he is turning the inquiry into a farce?

That matter is not appropriate to the Order of Business. The Deputy should pursue it in another way.

Will the Taoiseach respond?

The Deputy should table a parliamentary question.

Has the Cabinet made a decision to place a limit on expenses?

The Deputy should resume his seat.

Yesterday the Taoiseach said everything was in order. It now appears that is not so.

On the matter raised yesterday by Deputy Deasy, does the Taoiseach intend to take action in relation to the recent practice whereby questions tabled for oral reply are not replied to on the floor of the House, of supplying the minimum information and, often, not addressing the subject matter——

That matter is not appropriate to the Order of Business.

You permitted the matter to be raised yesterday.

The question related to Dáil reform.

This question is at the heart of Dáil reform.

We cannot deal with it now.

The practice of giving polite, meaningless replies to questions is not acceptable. I hope the Taoiseach will endorse that view. It is unacceptable that a private company, afforded unique facilities by the State, should thumb its nose at the institutions of the State——

It is not in order to raise that matter. The Deputy should not pursue it on the Order of Business. He should resume his seat.

How did a private company reach such an extraordinary arrangement?

It is not in order to raise that question on the Order of Business.

Is there a precedent for a private company reaching a sweetheart deal like this?

The Deputy should pursue that matter in another way. He knows it is not appropriate to the Order of Business.

(Interruptions.)

The Minister, Deputy Cowen, should stick with T-bone steaks.

Having regard to the information given to the House this week by the Minister for Public Enterprise that £12 million in State aid was paid to Ryanair, has the Minister any intention to amend the Air Navigation Bill before the House to take account of situations where State aid is paid to a company like Ryanair without being reported to the European Commission as required by law?

The Air Navigation Bill is awaiting Report Stage. I do not normally comment on these matters, but the Deputy will be aware that as Minister for Finance I gave well in excess of £100 million to Aer Lingus during that period.

That was first cleared by the European Commission.

I had to do that. On the point Deputy Rabbitte raised, as a former Minister of State responsible for company law, I am sure he asked all those questions when the Ryanair prospectus was published during his reign.

What is the present position concerning the Central Bank Bill which I understand is designed to allow supervision by the Central Bank of foreign owned trusts operating in the Financial Services Centre, some of which may be the subject of the type of concerns voiced overnight in regard to foreign owned accounts and companies operating here? When will that legislation be introduced? Have its final terms been agreed with the Central Bank? What will be the nature of the supervision? Is the Taoiseach satisfied that legislation will be acceptable to the financial action task force to which I referred earlier?

We cannot discuss the content of that legislation.

The Central Bank Bill is to provide for the supervision by the Central Bank of foreign trusts. The heads of the Bill have been approved and the text should be circulated this summer.

Will it be revised in light of the current controversy?

All the regulatory issues have been examined over a number of years and when the conclusions on the taxation side relevant to that Bill are reached I am sure they will be taken into account in that Bill.

In regard to the debate this evening, will the Taoiseach indicate that the Minister for Finance, who is responsible for the Central Bank and for the supervision of foreign trusts, will participate in the debate because its as much his responsibility as the Tánaiste's to deal with this matter? Will the Taoiseach indicate that will happen?

I do not know who will speak on that Bill today.

The Taoiseach is the head of the Government and he could invite the Minister for Finance, who is only three seats away from him, to take an interest in this debate.

We cannot discuss who will participate in that debate.

Will Deputy Noonan be present?

It will be like Hamlet without the prince if the Minister for Finance does not participate and the debate will be meaningless. Given that the Minister for Finance is responsible for this central legislation, he should participate in the debate.

Who will take part in that debate is not a matter for the Order of Business.

If the Minister for Finance does not take part in it, it will be meaningless.

It is not an appropriate question for the Order of Business.

(Interruptions.)

Why can the Minister for Finance, the most garrulous of Ministers, not participate in the debate? Will the Minister for Finance be here, in Limerick or elsewhere? Where will he be?

I seek clarification of the Taoiseach's reply to Deputy Stagg's question on Ryanair. It indicated the Taoiseach expects a Minister in the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment would have sight of the prospectus of every private company——

That is not appropriate to the Order of Business. I must now proceed to item 11a.

The Taoiseach has misled the House.

That was in the public domain.

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