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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 30 May 2000

Vol. 520 No. 1

Private Members' Business. - Eircom Shares: Motion.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann condemns the failure of the Government and the Minister for Public Enterprise to fully and adequately convey to potential Eircom share purchasers the likelihood that KPN and Telia – Comsource – would sell their shareholding at the earliest possible date, in view of the reluctance of the Government to allow them to increase their shareholding beyond 35%, and the lack of transparency of the views of Eircom management as to the real value of the shares at the time of the IPO, which may result in significant losses for many individual shareholders who were not aware of these factors at the time of their purchase.

I wish to share my time with Deputies Ulick Burke, Sheehan, Boylan, Ring and Bradford.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

As there are 488,000 shareholders in Eircom, it is only to be expected that Members of the House involved in this debate and intending to vote on it tomorrow night would also be shareholders. Today, therefore, the assistant whip of the Fine Gael Party wrote to the chairperson of the Committee on Members' Interests, Deputy Killeen, on the advice of the Clerk of the Dáil. The ruling is that under section 7 of the Ethics in Public Office Act, there is no obligation on any Member to declare other than what they have already declared if they have a shareholding in excess of £10,000 in Eircom but that Members are free to do so. The committee also did not believe that this debate would have any effect on the Eircom share price, which is significant. However, in the interests of proper order, neither I nor my wife or children have shares in Eircom.

The purpose of this debate is to seek answers to crucial questions about the completeness of the information given at the time of flotation to potential Eircom shareholders. I believe there was a lack of complete information in two areas. The first is the decision of KPN and Telia that they would, as opposed to could, sell their shares in Eircom at the earliest possible date, resulting in an overhang on the market of 776 million shares for sale. This is the principal reason the price of the shares has been depressed in recent months.

The second issue is the statement last week by Mr. Alfie Kane that it was known within Eircom that the Government's share price was 30% above prevailing telecom values. The exact words of Mr. Kane last Wednesday morning during the "Morning Ireland" programme to Geraldine Harney were:

I believe it is now widely accepted that it was priced too high at the time, a 30% premium to our peer group in the telecom sector. That was a decision made by the Government based on the advisers' input and not a decision made by the company.

I will deal first with the Comsource situation. Of immediate interest is the mini prospectus. Pages 26 and 27 deal with Comsource and outline the history of how KPN and Telia, a Dutch company and a Swedish company, came together in 1996 through Comsource to acquire 35% of Eircom. KPN had 21% and Telia held 14%. There is an explanation of how the merger of Telia and Telenor AS took place and, because Telenor AS had a stake in Esat, there was a regulatory reason that company would have to exit. I have no quibble with the fact that Telia was always likely to get out for regulatory reasons. As it happens, Esat has been acquired by another company and Telenor AS has sold its stake in the company.

The relevant paragraph on page 27 of the prospectus states:

Comsource, KPN Telecom and Telia have agreed not to sell any of their shares for a period of 6 months from the completion of the offers, but will be free to sell their shares there after by way of a stock market offering or otherwise. In addition, each of Comsource, KPN Telecom and Telia have agreed not to acquire any additional shares for a period of 18 months from the completion of the offers, provided that KPN Telecom is not restricted from increasing its shareholding in the company to a level not exceeding 29.9%.

Here was a clear suggestion that Telia was on the way out but that some of the Telia shares would be bought by KPN Telecom. The bombshell hit late last year when the public was told that KPN Telecom was going to leave Eircom. I went through my files and noted an article which I wrote for The Irish Times on 29 September 1999. I will quote briefly from it because the article reflects the prevailing attitude last September.

It cannot be denied that this will come as a major shock to most observers, not least because the hype and spin at the time of the share sale clearly indicated that KPN was a long-term strategic stakeholder.

In fact, the expectation was that the 14% stake owned by Telia would, at least in part, be bought up by KPN . . . it was intimated that KPN would buy up to 5.9% of Telia's stakeholding.

From the point the legal right which KPN had to exit – I do not dispute that legal right – was exercised, a glut of shares was overhanging the market.

It has been suggested that in the negotiations that took place in the first half of last year, prior to the IPO, KPN and Telia put their cards on the table and sought a larger stake. They wanted to have the option of controlling the company. It is further suggested that the Department, for whatever reason, said no and from that moment KPN and Telia made it clear that they were short-term stockholders. Did the Minister and the Department know this? Was the reason for inserting the six month clause in the prospectus that these people were on the way out? If that is the case why was the public not told?

I wrote to the freedom of information officer in the Department of Public Enterprise on 1 December last seeking various items of information, and I only received a reply today. It said that there is an inspection process. The letter, from Mr. Kevin Doyle, said: "In view of the large number of freedom of information and other requests, it has been decided to open all files relating to the IPO process other than files or documents exempt from release under the FOI". When I sought a specific document, to which I will refer later, I was told it was ineligible because it was deemed financially sensitive.

What were the circumstances whereby Comsource was refused a larger stake and whereby it decided to get out? If this was known in the Department and stitched into the six month rule, why was it not made known at the time?

The second issue is Mr. Kane's remarks. In an Adjournment debate last week the Minister said that the board agreed with the price range. She implied that she was not aware that Eircom was objecting to the share price. Last weekend, however, I read an interesting article in The Sunday Tribune. It said that not only did Eircom have a view on the overpricing of the share, it hired consultants called ABN Amro to compile a report on it. The document I am asking the Minister to publish is the ABN Amro report on the valid price of the share which was commissioned by Eircom and submitted to the Department.

When I asked for the document today under the Freedom of Information Act, I was denied it. The document states:

the potential dangers of an overpriced offering are arguably to be found in the Tele Danmark case, where the share price struggled in the after-market and the perception of the company in the market suffered as a result. Applied to Telecom Éireann (now Eircom) there are, of course, similar dangers.

Is that, as reported by The Sunday Tribune, in the ABN Amro document? Was this document brought to the attention of the Minister? Was it considered?

This document appears to vindicate Mr. Kane's view, expressed last Wednesday, that not only did Eircom have concerns but it hired consultants who submitted a report which clearly specified them. The report in The Sunday Tribune also states:

Contrary to suggestions made last week [by the Minister] that Eircom had been involved in the setting of the price, the company was merely informed on the day of the announcement of the share price, that it had been set at 307p.

There is a direct conflict between what Eircom and the Minister are saying and this needs to be clarified. I want the ABN Amro report published and the Comsource issue clarified fully.

Let us consider what has happened. This is the first State IPO in this country. This is the first time all the State's shares were sold and that none was retained by the State. It was a retail process. The launch price was IR£3.07 or 3.90. The price at close of business last Friday was IR£2.40, down from IR£3.07, and 3.05, down from 3.90. There are 488,000 shareholders. This means that if one had £17,000 worth of shares and were to get out now, he or she would suffer a loss, including expenses, of approximately £4,000. Shareholders are also faced with the prospect that KPN will make a secondary offering of their shares at a 10% discount to the market price, with a further 5% discount to the institutions. Therefore, a 21% block of shares is overhanging the market and Telia is not selling yet, but may sell later. I put it to the Minister that novices, never having bought a share previously, will be very wary for any future IPO, whereas the bed and breakfast operators, as they are known in the trade, those who bought large tranches of shares and got out quickly, the speculative investor, has actually gained. Those who were encouraged to put their nest egg aside for their long-term pension and future welfare, and their children's welfare, have lost most. Credit unions, banks and so on did a major media blitz and offered special loans to investors.

The Minister has made great play of the fact that her advisers advised the Government on the price and that when you pay that kind of money, you take the advice. During the Minister's tenure of almost three years in the Department, she got very expensive advisers in relation to Aer Rianta, both Arthur Anderson and her own advisers. Atkins provided very expensive advise in relation to Luas and she readily put their report in the bin. Therefore, she has no difficulty asserting herself to the extent that she is not obligated to advisers. I would like the Minister to clarify how much Merrill Lynch International and AIB Capital Markets received. The original estimate was £40 million, of which £28 million was to be spent. We subsequently heard that £58 was expended. My information is that they had a vested interest in a higher price because the higher the Government windfall, the higher would be their fee. Their role is to underwrite the share because if they set the price too high, they could be left with the stock. However, in this case the share was over-subscribed, so there was no underwriting risk. Therefore, they had no reason but to set the highest possible price.

Perhaps the Minister will comment on information which has come to hand that Merrill Lynch was involved with a Scandinavian telecom company and set a very low IPO price. This was a backlash against the flak they got in Finland. The Minister should clarify whether the advisers had a vested interest in extracting the highest price for their own financial gain. In addition, in order to maximise the return, Government greed took precedence over all else. These issues require absolute clarity.

This issue was raised on the Adjournment debate last week and I term the Minister's response to date as flimflam answers. I do not mind personal abuse against me as I am able for that. However, there were two spins at the weekend which perturbed me. I have gone through the process of seeing Ron Bolger, Brian Thompson, Brian Joyce and Garry McCann come and go and I saw two hallmarks during the weekend. First, it was not the Minister, Deputy O'Rourke, it was actually the Tánaiste, Deputy Harney, and the Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy. I believe in the principle of collective responsibility. The Minister cannot say one year to pupils that it is great news, they all have a free day, and come along the next year and say, "no, it is not me, sir". One cannot have it both ways.

Second, I see all the hallmarks of a potential hatchet job being done on Mr. Kane in that his future is now in jeopardy. I ask the Minister to publish the ABN Amro report. That will clarify whether Mr. Kane's remarks at the time of the IPO were the same as they were last Wednesday. I would like the Minister to inform us when KPN decided to get out, which caused this glut of shares, whether she and the Department had that information when the IPO was occurring and, if so, why they did not inform the public.

I am pleased to support Deputy Yates's motion. Its timely introduction gives everyone an opportunity to outline their disgust at what has arisen as a result of the flotation of Eircom.

The motion highlights the callous disregard of the Government for fewer than one million people, the majority of whom were small investors who were misled by the poor advice given at an early stage. The sad fact is that many of these small investors borrowed the finances to invest in these shares. Their situation today is very unhealthy in that they are caught between a rock and a hard place, although the advice in some of the media is to hold on, things will get better. The motion calls on the Minister for Public Enterprise to fully and adequately convey to potential Eircom share purchasers the likelihood that KPN and Telia – Comsource – would sell their shareholding at the earliest possible date. I believe the warning lights were in existence from the beginning but, unfortunately, many people did not heed them.

When the flotation price of Eircom was set last July, it was decided that the company deserved a premium rating because Eircom was the largest operator in the fastest growing economy in Europe. I believe that was propaganda because it did not merit such a premium being put on the shares, particularly in the European context where all the big players were at the same time offloading shares on the European markets within their own countries. By August the tide had turned and the fact that the advisers, Merrill Lynch International and AIB Capital Markets, had got it all wrong became obvious to investors. In ordinary circumstances, the flotation of shares would be of little, if any, interest to ordinary members of the public. However, in the case of the Eircom flotation, the public were cajoled or enticed by every means possible to buy the shares and become investors for the first time and they would have almost guaranteed profit at the end.

Who could have refused such offers? The Minister led the promotion. The timing of the flotation was wrong and it is extraordinary the Minister ignored the advice of the Chief Executive of Eircom, Mr. Alfie Kane, that the company knew the flotation share price was over-valued by as much as 30%. The Government was fully aware of this advice when it agreed with the Minister's recommendation of the flotation price.

The terrible fall-out of this mess is that many small investors were lured into purchasing these shares by the advice given. These people, many of them elderly, invested their savings in the hope of improving their meagre lifestyle and small savings. They have now lost very heavily in proportion to their investment. Is it true the advice on which the final flotation figure was based cost £28 million? Is the Minister continuing to keep these advisers on her payroll? It must be the most costly advice ever received by a Minister, which has led to major losses for many investors, both retail and institutional.

This is the greatest debacle of all time. The Minister was flying high 12 months ago telling people that the gold rush was on and that they should aim for the moon. An investment of £5,000 in Eircom last year was worth £4,200 last Wednesday and £4,050 by last Thursday. What about the poor pensioners and other people who borrowed money from the banks and credit unions to purchase shares? It was like picking the wrong horse in the 3.30 p.m. race in Leopardstown. Many a wrong tip is given by tipsters, and the Minister is the greatest tipster of all time in terms of giving the wrong advice at the wrong time.

The Minister agreed to give the chief executive officer, Alfie Kane, £300,000 per year plus a bonus. She has led investors astray. She gave them the wrong advice and did not do her homework. She was carried away on a cloud nine atmosphere. Pious words butter no bread for the unfortunate people who today have no money in their pockets.

Despite the so-called financial wizards who were giving the Minister and the Government advice the Minister made a mess of the flotation. She has lost the confidence of ordinary people, jeopardised the chances of future flotations and has led the people up the garden path. Nobody will listen to her advice in future.

The share price was over-valued by more than 30%. I do not know who gave the Minister the incorrect information. Perhaps the higher the valuation the higher the percentage charge. The Minister bears responsibility for the current share price. Nobody will listen to the Minister if she tries to convince people to buy shares in future flotations.

I have no shares in Eircom, so I have a smile on my face. However, I feel very sorry for the unfortunate people who were taken in by the Minister and Ray MacSharry, who led the promotion of the Eircom shares. Both owe a profuse apology to those who bought shares, for the manner in which they were mislead.

This debacle is very serious for a number of reasons. People who normally do not invest in shares were encouraged to take out their savings and families were encouraged to make investments for other family members. People borrowed money to buy shares. The flotation was hyped. The big day came and the Minister was there in all her grandeur. I understand Ray MacSharry was flown in at enormous expense. With blackboard in place and chalk in hand, the price was fixed at 3.90 euros and a big line was drawn under it. Ray MacSharry is gone and we do not hear a word from him. The Minister is trying to shift blame.

I pay a glowing tribute to the chief executive officer of Eircom, Mr. Alfie Kane, an Ulsterman. I am proud he is an Ulsterman as we tell it as it is – perhaps the rest of the country should take a leaf from our book. Ulster people have no hidden agendas – we tell it out straight. Alfie Kane had the courage, honesty and dignity to state things exactly and he has been beleaguered since. The Minister attacked him and told him to mind his own business. However, that is his business. The Minister is not minding her business. I do not wish to be hard on the Minister, but a major blunder was made and she should have the honesty and dignity to say mea culpa.

Perhaps for the benefit of small investors who are not into the big world of stocks and shares the Minister will explain what she means when she says she paid £58 million – a fat lot of money – for the advice. This is equivalent to £118 for each shareholder. The Minister said she had to take that advice, but that is not true. She should have examined it and asked questions. The Minister is a common sense woman and she did not have to take the advice because she paid an enormous amount for it. She would not buy a wedding dress which did not fit and which was at an enormous price, just because she was advised to buy it. However, she accepted the wrong advice and paid an enormous amount of money for it. Now, unfortunate small investors are picking up the tab. I have heard many sad stories but will not relate them tonight as it would take too much time.

It could have come right if the shares had been offered at the correct price, in line with the advice the Minister received from people in her Department and which she ignored – perhaps the Minister might clarify this. People were not seeking to make a vast fortune. Investments by and large were between £1,000 and £2,000 – not big money in the Minister's stakes, but a great deal of money for ordinary people. If things had worked out these people would have been encouraged to invest in Irish stocks and companies in future flotations. Now they tell me they will not get involved in future flotations; they say it is only for big people, the people of the nod and wink who are in the know. Deputy Sheehan spoke about people going to the races. There are people in the know and then small punters who pay for it all. As a former Deputy, Tom Fitzpatrick, used to say, it is the bookmakers who drive the big cars. He was perfectly right, and we know who is driving the big cars in terms of the Eircom flotation.

Who benefited and where is the money? People want answers to these questions. The Minister did not explain what people were getting into and what the consequences would be. It was presented as being very straightforward. People bought a pig in a poke because when they offered to take, for example, shares worth £1,000 they did not know the share price. That was wrong – prices must be advertised. There is a big hubbub about drink prices in today's newspapers. Drink prices have to be marked up, but the share prices were not marked up and people were not told how much each share would cost. People simply made a lump sum investment and were given an amount of shares. It is a sad situation and I advise the Minister, in the interests of decency and honesty, to come clean about the entire debacle.

When the flotation of Eircom was announced last year we were told that it was a team effort. The team was: in goal, the Minister for Public Enterprise; full back, Ray MacSharry, and in midfield, Alfie Kane, chief executive of Eircom. The trouble was that he thought he was Roy Keane. He was sent off last year when his mouth was closed. Where was he when the flotation was announced? Why did the Roy Keane of the team not tell the people that the share was overpriced by 30%? The forwards on the team were the advisers to the Government who were well paid. They remind me of Manchester United which is buying a French goalkeeper for £10 million. They received £28 million.

The taxpayer has been ripped off on many occasions. As a man said to me the other day, is this another political donation to the Government? The people – the supporters – were told that they could not go wrong, that the share was a certainty. They saw the advertisements on television and in the newspapers and were assured that this was a winning team. Like the supporters of soccer, rugby and the GAA who always pay high prices for match tickets, they were ripped off by having to pay a high price for the share.

Those who had a few pounds to invest last year in the hope that they would make enough money to educate their family down the road said to themselves that they had to believe the Government, Alfie Kane and the advisers to the Government who were being paid £28 million. While the Government, Eircom and the advisers gained, the losers were the people – the supporters. When the election is called – it is not too far away – and the representatives of the political parties knock on doors the people who invested £500 to £700 in Eircom will quickly spell it out, particularly to Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats. They are very upset and annoyed at having been sold down the drain.

This was the worst team we ever put on the field. It has performed like no other. It is unbelievable that the ordinary people of this country have been hoodwinked again. It is bad enough that those on social welfare, pensioners and those who depend on the Government for health services are deprived, but the small investor in Eircom believed that the Government and those who were involved in the flotation were honest and honourable. As Deputy Sheehan said, shares purchased for £5,000 last year are now worth around £4,200. This is outrageous and a disgrace. It is not good enough. I do not know which company advised the Government but it should give back some of the £28 million it received from the State to the Government and the investors to give them some return on their savings which they invested open and honestly.

There will not be many more flotations. If there are they will not be undertaken under the Government because the people will not believe it. Aer Lingus and other State companies which will depend on flotation will be badly affected. One cods the supporters only once. This team has failed and we all know what happens to a team when it does not win trophies – one gets rid of the manager and players and brings in a new team. There is a need for fresh faces on the opposite side of the House. It is time the people had an opportunity to decide which team they want.

We have probably just heard the new Minister for Economic Planning and Development. I agree fully with my colleagues and in particular our party spokesperson, Deputy Yates. The Minister has been very fortunate in the last week or two when the newspapers headlines focused on the trials and tribulations of her colleagues that the debacle surrounding the Eircom share issue has been covered more on the business pages than the front page of the national media. In coming weeks, however, as more and more people come to realise that they have suffered grave financial losses as a result of the share going into freefall there will be real anger which will be focused in the main on the Minister as the person who made the final political choice.

The vast majority of Members were very supportive of the concept behind the flotation of Eircom, the development of a share owning society. Such a concept has worked very effectively throughout Europe and it was our hope that the Eircom flotation would be the first of many in which the ordinary person would invest modest sums in public companies floated from time to time. Sadly the golden goose promised by the Government and Eircom has turned out to be nothing more than a chicken coming home to roost. There are political and economic questions to answer. Not only has it become a financial disaster for hundreds of thousands of people but it has been a public relations disaster for the Government and Eircom. The possibility of generating interest of the same scale in the future sale of State assets has been reduced to an alarming extent. The people will not be fooled a second time.

I hope the Minister who may have answers to the questions raised will be more constructive and realistic than in her glib statement last week about backing horses. It may have been a good quip but it was of scant consolation to the hundreds of thousands of people who took her advice last year and invested their hard earned money in a State asset or took out loans made available by the banks and other financial institutions and are now counting their losses. If the Minister was brave enough to own up to rather than dismiss the problem as being akin to a horse winning a race she would at least allow a rational and reasoned debate.

This flotation was expected to be the first of many. We support the Minister in her efforts to encourage genuine public ownership of public companies but if this is step one we are starting from a very weak footing. As my colleagues said, those who advised the Minister have questions to answer but more than any other the Minister has always been brave enough to accept political responsibility for decisions made. She therefore has to answer the question of why she took their advice and ignored the alternative advice available and explain where we go from here. Those who have been burnt will not go to the well again.

I hope the Minister will be constructive and listen to the pleas from this side of the House. We are talking about the losses endured by thousands of people and need a better response than it is akin to backing a horse.

I wish to share my time with Deputy Ardagh.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:–

"commends the Government and the Minister for Public Enterprise in respect of the successful flotation of Telecom Éireann (now re-named Eircom) in July, 1999;

notes, the full disclosure of all matters relating to the shareholding in the Company held by the strategic partners (KPN and Telia) in the offer documentation sent to each potential shareholder;

notes, in particular, the mini-prospectus statement that "Comsource, KPN Telecom and Telia have agreed not to sell any of their shares for a period of 6 months from the completion of the offers, but will be free to sell their shares thereafter by way of a stock market offering or otherwise. In addition, each of Comsource, KPN Telecom and Telia have agreed not to acquire any additional shares for a period of 18 months from the completion of the offers, provided that KPN Telecom is not restricted from increasing its shareholding in the Company to a level not exceeding per cent";

notes the Board of the Company's agreement in a transparent manner to the issue of a prospectus including a full price range in advance of the offer;

notes the fact that the Eircom share price equalled or exceeded the flotation price on all but 38 out of the 233 trading days since flotation.".

I thank the Opposition for the measured way in which the matter was introduced. In particular, I thank Deputy John Bruton for the courtesy he and his personal assistant, Mark Kennelly, showed to the Secretary General of my Department. I was not in Ireland yesterday when queries were being made but the dealings were entirely cordial, courteous and constructive.

I shoulder a considerable reluctance to trade words across this House about a private company listed on the Stock Exchange. However, it is obvious that the Opposition shows no such reluctance, and the net effect of attempting to stir controversy regarding the Eircom flotation may be to apply downward pressure on the share price. I wish to make clear to Deputies John Bruton and Yates that I have nothing to fear from this debate. However, it is another matter whether the marketplace will remain immune after the Opposition ventilates half-truths, innuendoes and mad-cap conspiracy theories.

Eircom is a private company with hundreds of thousands of shareholders drawn from every walk of life. I doubt whether these shareholders will welcome their company name being dragged through the Dáil Chamber with its attendant dangers. It may provide a quick, opportunistic headline for Fine Gael but at what cost to the company and its shareholders?

Being in Opposition has its responsibilities, part of which is to look at the broader picture. Deputies John Bruton and Yates have opted for the cheap headline – and it may be a cheap headline in more ways than one. When the dust finally settles on this issue, I hope both Deputies will believe it worthwhile but I doubt the company's shareholders will adopt a similar view.

The debate so far has been measured but I appeal to colleagues in the House to exercise great prudence in refraining from saying anything under privilege which might give rise to erroneous investor perceptions of Eircom. No person in any country can make a commitment that the shares of a floated company will never drop in price. I did not make any such commitment. How could I, as it would be patently nonsensical. Even if I wished to do so, I would have been prevented by the strict laws concerning the listing of companies on the Irish and international Stock Exchanges.

The Opposition's motion seeks to censure me and the Government on three basic grounds relating to the Eircom flotation, first, that the offer documentation failed to make full disclosure of the position of the strategic partners, second, that the partners may wish to sell their shareholding in the company because of their inability to purchase a stake of more than 35% of the company for a period of 18 months following the flotation and, third, that the Government failed to give transparency to the views of Eircom management as to the value of the shares at the time of the IPO.

Before dealing with these matters of detail, I wish to deal with some important issues of principle. Deputies will be aware that I am always happy to come to the House to debate issues and to share information on matters for which I have direct political responsibility. I have never shirked that responsibility. Eircom has been in private ownership for almost a year and I have no responsibility for its commercial operations or its capital structure. Deputies will also know that in the 11 months since its flotation, the share price has traded at or above its flotation price on all but 38 of 233 trading days.

We are all aware that this debate is not taking place on one of the 195 out of 233 trading days that the Eircom share has traded at or above flotation price. That is because the motion has little to do with the flotation process but is an opportunistic exercise driven by current weakness in the share price 11 months after the offering. The motion is driven by the absurd logic that the Government and I are somehow responsible for current share price weakness, or that we could have reasonably foreseen it taking place and failed to warn potential shareholders of its likelihood. It is a motion nurtured in cloud-cuckoo land.

It is difficult to find a single independent observer outside this House who can support this ludicrous proposition. The motion alleges that the offer documentation failed to make full disclosure of the position of the strategic partners. Sadly, the facts utterly fail to support this allegation. This position was made clear in the main prospectus and the mini-prospectus.

The mini-prospectus was distributed to all of the 1.2 million people who registered an interest in purchasing shares. It stated:

Comsource, KPN Telecom and Telia have agreed not to sell any of their shares for a period of 6 months from the completion of the Offers, but will be free to sell their Shares thereafter by way of a stock market offering or otherwise. In addition, each of Comsource, KPN Telecom and Telia have agreed not to acquire any additional Shares for a period of 18 months from the completion of the Offers, provided that KPN Telecom is not restricted from increasing its shareholding in the Company to a level not exceeding 29.9%.

The offer documentation went beyond fully disclosing the position of the strategic partners. It also indicated the influence that decisions made by the strategic partners could have on share price developments. The offer documentation did so in the context of setting out fairly the risks associated with investment in the Eircom stock. The prospectus contained a chapter on risks which was flagged in the contents on page 2.

The mini-prospectus also contains the following statement addressed to all potential investors in the company under the heading "Risks" which states:

You should carefully consider the risks described below and the information in the Prospectus before purchasing Shares. The value of your Shares may be adversely affected by general market conditions and/or the possibility of further stock market offerings of the Shares by, among others, KPN Telecom and Telia. Furthermore, there can be no assurance that the Shares will trade in the stock market subsequent to the Offers at or above the price at which those Shares are sold in the Offers by the Ministers. In addition, if any of the risks summarised below actually occur, the Company's business, financial condition or results of operations could be materially adversely affected and the trading price of its Shares could decline.

The mini-prospectus goes on the set out the risks: increasing competition, which is happening; the entrance of a third mobile phone operator, which will happen; the company's changing regulatory environment, which will also happen; the consequences of the company failing to successfully implement its transformation programme; rapidly changing technologies; the possibility of a decline in the company's revenues, profitability and growth rate; a slowing of growth in the Irish telecommunications market; the fact that the company's investments in new business areas and markets could require substantial capital; the company's computer systems; the need to hire and retain skilled personnel; the fact that the company may be influenced by significant shareholders whose interests may not be aligned with those of shareholders; the possibility that an adverse decision in legal proceedings could require the company to pay damages or fines; the fact that the company is dependent on its continuing good relationship with its employees and their trade unions; and health risks, including those involving mobile telephones.

This is a comprehensive and sober list of risk factors associated with investing in Eircom which demolishes the motion's argument regarding lack of disclosure by the selling shareholder. It must also be recognised that all publicity material issued in connection with the sale stated that share values could go down as well as up.

The prospectus dealing with the sale of shares in Eircom was cleared by the New York, London and Dublin Stock Exchanges in advance of the issue of the document in mid June 1999. This involved an arduous process of clearance of texts lasting over a period of months. All of the exchanges involved have testing standards in terms of the representation of all material relevant to a company being floated.

In relation to the second allegation contained in the motion, the decision of KPN to sell its stake is that company's decision alone. With that stake potentially about to come to the market, it would be wrong to say anything that might be damaging to the interests of Eircom shareholders or to KPN at this time. KPN has stated publicly that its decision to sell has come about as a result of its strategy to focus more on mobile telecommunications and its need to fund this strategic shift. The only point I want to make at this stage is that there was little point in floating Eircom only to have an immediate takeover of that company in the aftermath of flotation.

In relation to the third allegation contained in the motion, the prospectus and the price range, which was set prior to the flotation, were agreed by the Government and the company. The final price of £3.07 was within this price range. The prospectus, in its totality, is the responsibility of the board. The prospectus contained a price range and that price range was approved by the board.

The balance sheet of the company at the time of the flotation was very strong. The price set by the Government for Eircom at the flotation date was set on the basis of what the market was prepared to pay and based on the advice of expert advisers.

The pricing of the shares in July 1999 involved balancing the need for a fair price for taxpayers and the need for a fair return for retail and institutional investors. Criticism was expressed in the immediate aftermath of the flotation from certain quarters that the price of Eircom shares was set too low by the Government. In particular, it is worth remembering that the institutional offer was no fewer than 16 times over-subscribed, even at the top of the price range.

The views of those commentators, many of whom are the most respected and reputable journalists in the State, is best expressed by a quotation from the press immediately after flotation, "the obligation of the State as owner – since the State is the guardian of the public finances – was to sell Telecom at the highest price the market would bear."

The Government could have chosen to float the company at a higher price than it did, but it chose not to do so. It received advice from one of the joint global co-ordinators to the offering, Merrill Lynch, to float the shares at £3.27. Merrill Lynch has since been appointed advisers by Eircom and is now advising it.

As the House knows, the launch price was £3.07. In the immediate aftermath of the flotation the shares rose by 20%. The share has traded well above flotation price most of the time since the flotation. The share price has been below the issue price on only 38 days out of 233 days since the launch.

One commentator, Colm Rapple, wrote after the flotation that the company was sold at 20% below its market value, which represents a loss of almost £700 million. Many commentators believed that the Government struck the right balance. An editorial in The Irish Times declared “The Government appears to have pitched the flotation price (£3.07) at precisely the right level: anything less and it would have been vulnerable to the charge that the Company was being sold off too cheaply.”

In the first three months of this year, the share price was never below the issue price and it reached a high of £3.78 on a number of occasions in January, February and March 2000, a premium of 23% on the flotation price. I cannot tell people when to buy or sell shares, they are the masters and mistresses of that. I was not called to Dáil Éireann to speak about why the share price was 23% higher than the flotation price during the first three months of this year.

The potential returns to Eircom investors have been available against the background of a market which, at best, has been sluggish or in decline since the flotation. It is worth remembering that sentiment in the stock markets has turned against European telecommunications stocks in recent months as high technology companies in general have suffered sharp share price declines. A leading European telecommunications index has fallen by 35% since 6 March. British Telecom, Deutsche Telekom and France Telecom are currently 45%, 41% and 35%, respectively, of their share price highs in 2000.

This motion is not about the fundamentals underlying the Eircom flotation. This debate could not have taken place on 195 of the 233 days since the shares were floated. The motion has been put forward without regard to the interest of the shareholders in the company. It seeks to use current market conditions for cynical ends.

I wish to return to the question posed by Deputy Yates's mad-cap theory. He appears to believe the report compiled by merchant bankers, ABN Amro, for the company was suppressed in some way. This report suggested a lower flotation price. We did not commission this report, it was commissioned by Eircom.

It was commissioned by Alfie Kane. The Minister refused today to give me a copy of that report.

I did not interrupt the Deputy, even at his daftest. At the time, while not formally released, the report received widespread media coverage. Instead of pursuing breathlessly in Enid Blyton-type mode a Famous Five mystery, Deputy Yates would have been better employed extracting press cuttings from that period. If he did, he would discover the full scale of that coverage.

Following a cursory look through the cuttings, I have been able to establish that Business & Finance, The Sunday Business Post, the Irish Independent and The Sunday Tribune covered ABN Amro's concerns in the weeks leading up to the flotation. That is hardly the stuff of conspiracy and secret files.

Deputy Yates questioned me on ABN Amro's report, which he is entitled to do. As it was commissioned by Eircom, it is its property and it refused us the right to release it under the Free dom of Information Act. I asked someone in the Department to telephone Eircom this afternoon to ask if we could release the report now, but Eircom said no, it is its property and it does not wish to release it. We cannot release the report as it is not ours.

There are many forces at work behind a flotation. A company would like a low flotation price as it would not have to work as hard or justify fat share options later. I am playing this game with my two hands tied behind my back as I have received advice that temperance and prudence should inform what one would say on this.

ABN Amro issued a report to Eircom in May, which was widely commented on in the newspapers to which I referred, and on 3 September it said Eircom shares, at £4.20, were undervalued. It said it retained a positive long-term stance in the company, but Eircom shares were undervalued at the price it quoted in September 1999. It advised people to purchase and to purchase again. One pays one's money and takes one's chance on the advice offered by economic commentators at a time.

I have faith in Eircom, its workers and its future. That is not to say what any person should do in this regard. It would be good if Members re-enforced their faith in that company and I am proud to do that.

Many people invested in Eircom shares. Some invested in them for a gamble and others invested for the long-term. Those who invested for a gamble had the opportunity to sell their shares and many of them did. Up to the end of October they had to sell at what was the best price if they took a particular route, but early this year they could dictate the price at which they wanted to sell their shares. For a considerable number of days at that time the price of the shares rose to 4.70 or 4.80. There was ample opportunity then for those who invested in the shares for a gamble to sell their shares and make more than 20% profit on their investment.

One should look at the situation today. Today I did an analysis of the breakup value of Eircom, its essential ingredients and what the value would be. There is the mobile network, Eircell, the infrastructure, the fixed lines, ISDNs and the Internet with the ISPs and multi-media. Yesterday or the day before, France Telecom took over Orange and paid 6,741 per customer. In the last report Eircell had 1,049,000 customers. That places a value on Eircell alone at today's pricing of £5.57 billion. The New York Stock Exchange today had a market capitalisation on Eircom of $6.658 billion, which is, within £100,000, equivalent to the value of Eircell on its own. Eircom has 243,000 Internet customers. The sale value ranges from $2,120 to $6,167, the higher range being paid if they are customers of KOL or some other major company. The sale value of the minor ones is over $2,000 per customer, amounting to £430 million, which is well over the market capitalisation value.

That is not taking into account the 1.58 million customers on fixed line or the 152,000 ISDN customers. In fixed line I include all the exchanges throughout the country. If that was available at £2 billion – 40% of the total value of Eircell – I would go out of my way to get a consortium together to buy it. That would put Eircom valuation at £8 billion, with a breakup value of 4.80. That is not taking into account the astonishing growth in the telecommunications market here. The present price should not be considered as the maximum, a price at which people sell off shares they have kept in the longer term. From the values in the marketplace, the breakup value is a minimum of 4.80. Instead of valuing the infrastructure at £2 billion, some people would value it at £6 billion plus, which would add another 2.42 to the actual breakup value of Eircom. Even today the market has accepted the price. At the close of business in London this afternoon it was valued at 3.39, a significant increase from this morning at 3.07. This shows the fluctuations that can occur even in a stock of this nature.

I cannot understand why Eircom has been undersold by people in that company. The institutional investors own only 0.1% of the stock. What is going on? A share option will be put in place in September. The lower the value of the share the greater value it will be to the executives who get their share options. It would be cynical of me to think there would be a relationship between maintaining lower share prices and the share option scheme. One wonders about the underselling that is taking place. There is also the question of the institutional investors. Why do institutions not invest in Eircom? Normally they look at the overall company, the direction in which it is going and its management. If those fundamentals are sound they will invest in it. Obviously there is some fundamental which needs to be addressed and questioned.

Certainly in this day and age, the confidence and ability of Eircom to develop and increase in value is huge and it must be allowed to realise that potential. This defensiveness of Eircom is unfortunate at a time when we need to develop our telecommunications system. We have lived through social exclusion and pockets of poverty, but the opportunity is here now for everyone to have access to the Internet, to delete the digital divide and not allow it come into place.

In the past few days a glossy brochure from NTL was delivered to my house. It apologised for the work that would be carried out on the road because it was going to deliver fibre to my door so that I could get from it digital television, rapid Internet access and telephone lines. Why have I not got that type of letter from Eircom? Why is it taking Eircom so long to go onto the fibre route given that the company has resources? Eircom borrowings were £188 million at the last report. On a company that has a value of £6.6 billion market capitalisation, why has it not borrowed if it considers the share price is too low to do a rights issue? Why has it not invested in putting fibre into place in every home in the country so that it gets to the market before companies such as NTL, owned by France Telecom which recently bought Orange? Why is Eircom lagging behind? That is an issue that needs to be addressed.

There is the question of unbundling the local loop. It is important if copper wires are going into every house they should be accessible at a price to any Telecom operator who is prepared to pay an economic price for them. There is no reason there should be a shut-out because that does not do this country any good. It prevents and stops progress. That is being done in such a way at times that people feel they are protecting Eircom. Eircom is not being protected. The greater the number of people using Telecom's facilities the better for Eircom. Eircom is the number one company here. The greater the market, the greater the potential for Eircom to capitalise on that market. I do not know whether it is stunting it or whether Eircom has any part in seeking not to unbundle the local loop but I would like to see that happening in the near future.

The value of Eircom is about two and a half times the revenue. Young people going out to buy houses have to borrow up to four times their salary, although it is not desirable from a credit point of view. A company that is valued at two and a half times the revenue seems to be an undervalued company.

Eircom is a great buy and has great value and great potential. I want to see Eircom, its management and its board of directors take some initiative and drive that company to its full potential.

Go raibh maith agat. Eachtra an-tábhachtach i stair na tíre seo ab ea príobháidiú Telecom Éireann. Nuair a díoladh na scaireanna le muintir na hÉireann bhí sé de dhualgas ar an Aire an tsuim airgid ba mhó a fháil don stát chiste agus chomh maith leis sin úinéaracht scaireanna a leathnú i measc an phobail. An cheist is tábhachtaí i ndeireadh na dála ná ar éirigh leis an Aire an dá chuspóir a bhaint amach. Cáineann an rún atá os ár gcomhair anocht an tAire as ucht eolas tábhachtach i leith na scaireanna a cheilt ó na daoine a cheannaigh iad.

In the general principles of the initial public offering of shares in Telecom Éireann, published by the Minister for Public Enterprise, Deputy O'Rourke, on 7 May 1999, section 1 is headed: "Objectives of the Offer". Section 1 stated that the objectives of the flotation were to maximise the financial return to the Exchequer and to promote wider share ownership in the State. I understand that the Minister for Public Enterprise, Deputy O'Rourke, came in with a price for the shares to the Irish retail investor which was between the Merrill Lynch higher price and the lower price of the Telecom Éireann advisers. Mr. Alfie Kane, chief executive of Éircom, suggested on "Morning Ireland" on Wednesday of last week that the Telecom Éireann share price was overvalued. Subhead E1 of the 1999 Estimates of the Department of Public Enterprise deals with the fees and expenses related to the sale of shares in Telecom Éireann. This shows an original Estimate of £40 million. However, by the end of the year, a Supplementary Estimate of £40 million was required. This brought the total requirement to £80 million.

The factors giving rise to the requirement for an additional £40 million were stated as being that the value of the company increased significantly and so did the percentage fees to the global co-ordinators. A sum of £57.4 million was the estimated cost, including VAT, of Merrill Lynch International and AIB Capital Markets, and these were the joint global co-ordinators. The fact that those offering an interest increased significantly had a similar impact on the fees and this was a further reason put forward regarding the need for the Supplementary Estimate of £40 million. The final reason the Supplementary Estimate was required was that the level of interest in the initial public offering far surpassed expectations, and this had the impact of demand-led costs.

There are differing views as to whether the Minister maximised the financial return to the Exchequer. I wish to leave this to one side for the moment and deal with the second objective of the flotation – to promote wider share ownership in the State. The basic question is whether the Minister has succeeded in relation to the second objective of the initial public offering of shares of Telecom Éireann. My recollection is that 1.2 million people registered an interest in buying shares and that finally there were half a million investors in the shares.

There are very valuable lessons to be learned from what happened in the interim approximately 233 trading days. Borrowing to buy shares is not to be advised, particularly, when the loan is large in relation to the income of the borrower. There were those who borrowed against the background of selling early when they assessed that the share price had peaked. In general, these people have done well. Those who borrowed with no strategic plans to sell or hold their shares are presently suffering a loss. I do not intend to speculate as to the future value of Éircom shares in the short, medium or long-term. That is a matter for the experts on the Stock Exchange. What is sure is that stock market forecasting is just that. Unexpected events, national and international, can upset the apple cart. What is certainly clear to everyone at this stage is that there is no guaranteed return from buying or selling shares. Every investment is a gamble.

The motion before us tonight condemns the failure of the Government and the Minister for Public Enterprise to fully and adequately convey to potential purchasers of Telecom Éireann shares the likelihood of KPN and Telia, or Comsource, would sell their share holdings at the earliest possible date in view of the reluctance of the Government to increase their shareholding to beyond 33%. This is an extremely serious alle gation which implies that information critical to the future price of the shares was concealed from potential investors.

That is not true.

The Minister admitted it.

The mini-prospectus which was forwarded on behalf of the Government to the 1.2 million who registered an interest in the Telecom Éireann flotation stated that Comsource, KPN and Telia, had agreed not to sell any of their shares for a period of six months from the completion of the offers but would be free to sell their shares thereafter by way of a stock market offering or otherwise. In addition, Comsource, KPN and Telia, had agreed not to acquire any additional shares for a period of 18 months from the completion of the offers, provided that KPN Telecom was not restricted from increasing shareholding in the company to a level not exceeding 29.9%.

Deputy Yates's allegation is a serious one. Evidence is required to show that the Minister was in possession of further relevant information in regard to the likelihood of KPN and Telia selling their shareholding in the short-term following the six-month period after the completion of the offers. The Minister has an obligation to disclose all relevant information of which she had definite knowledge.

The Fine Gael motion further condemns the lack of transparency of the view of Telecom Éireann management as to the real value of the shares at the time of the IPO. The motion goes on to state that both these issues may result in significant losses for many individual shareholders who were not aware of these factors at the time of their purchase. The Minister for Public Enterprise, Deputy O'Rourke, is quoted as saying that the board of Telecom Éireann agreed on the flotation price of the company's shares before they were launched on the market last year. The Fine Gael motion makes the point that transparency was lacking in regard to the view of Telecom Éireann management.

It is incumbent on the Minister for Public Enterprise to put in context and to provide full information regarding the view of Telecom Éireann's advisers regarding the share price for the IPO as well as the views of the board and management of Telecom Éireann. Let us clarify these issues once and for all and let Telecom Éireann, now Eircom, get on with its business as a privately-owned telecommunications company.

There are issues which we must reflect upon in the whole area of privatisation. The interests of our citizens collectively must be our first and foremost concern. As a modern and highly effective economy, we need to have the best possible communications system so that we can maximise economic growth and the creation of well-paid employment while providing the best quality system at the lowest possible price for domestic use. The future direction of communications technology remains a matter for conjecture. We can only plan for the future on the basis of present knowledge. It is probably too early to have a definitive analysis on whether privatisation was in the national interest. In the year up to end March pre-tax profits rose by almost 18 per cent to £265 million but the 3,500 voluntary job losses have eroded the profits. The social consequences of the job losses are another negative that must be taken into account when considering the overall analysis. Whether the Minister for Public Enterprise maximised the return to the Exchequer is, to some extent, a matter of conjecture. Advice and consultancy costs amounted to £80 million. That is the figure we were given last year in the 1999 Estimates for her Department. This is a very large sum of money and there is need to analyse this expenditure to establish whether it represents value for money and what mistakes were made that could be avoided in the future.

Another issue often lost sight of is the right of citizens to know what was done with the £4.7 million which the Exchequer received, less expenses, from the sale of Telecom. Privatisation can become a fashion rather than something that is in the overall national interest. The electorate, particularly those who bought shares in Telecom, are entitled to know what the money they invested, together with other money invested by private investors, has achieved.

I was pleased to hear that Deputy Ardagh will receive digital television in the future. While there is a certain amount of knowledge regarding communications and information technology, what does the future hold? Where are we heading in terms of communications, broadcasting, the Internet and so on? There is a school of thought that says we will see a convergence of these means of communication and there will be one receiver for all these services. Deputy Ardagh said he was surprised Telecom Éireann did not do something similar but, at the end of the day, we are talking about two separate things. His colleague, the Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands, has effectively stalled Committee Stage of the broadcasting Bill. We are awaiting her position and the publication of new amendments.

The reason digital television in the context of digital terrestrial television is not moving forward can be laid fairly and squarely at the feet of the Minister who is in conflict with RTE regarding ownership of the broadcasting infrastructure. NTL provides its signal by way of cable and MMDS in the main. Interestingly, I heard recently it has 600,000 customers which is approximately half of the potential market for digital television. It can be provided through cable and MMDS. Digital terrestrial is the signal that goes through the air and will be provided in the first instance to the four existing television stations though there will be extra stations provided to them. Those who will operate digital ter restrial television will be able to sell other multiplexes or other channels to the private sector. However, the potential that exists is being eaten up against a background of further subscribers to cable and MMDS television.

The other means of broadcasting, satellite television, is not as yet a very large factor here. Deputy Ardagh could ask the Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands to move the digital terrestrial television agenda ahead. It is more important to rural rather than urban areas where there is cable and so on as, if it succeeds – we hope it does – it will bring greater choice to those areas. In the view of many of those who know, the convergence of broadcasting, telephony and the Internet will be a reality. Obviously views differ on when exactly that will happen.

Part of the difficulty that arose in regard to Digico, the company that was to have been set up under the broadcasting Bill to operate what is at present Teilifís Éireann's broadcasting infrastructure, was that initially up to 40% of the shareholding was for RTE, that was to be carried out on the basis of an evaluation of its infrastructure and 60% was to go elsewhere. An asset should, as this should, remain in public ownership. In Britain the network was sold off but there may be potential in relation to that infrastructure that we may not be aware of because the technologies to exploit it are not readily visible now.

The flotation of the telecom shares was something new. If information was withheld which would be relevant in a significant way to the future price of the shares, it should be provided. If we could see the ABN report which the Minister said is the property of Eircom we might have more information on what happened and why the share price was set.

Debate adjourned.
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