Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 10 Oct 2000

Vol. 523 No. 4

Order of Business.

The Tánaiste

The Order of Business today shall be as follows: No. 23, motion re referral to Joint Committee of Freedom of Information Act, 1997 (Prescribed Bodies) (No. 3) Regulations 2000; No. 24 Motion re Referral to Joint Committee of Approval of terms of Agreement establishing an Advisory Centre on World Trade Organisation law; No. 25, motion regarding Fourth Protocol to the Treaty of Amsterdam, a proposal for a Council Regulation – EC – in the mutual enforcement of judgments and rights of access to children; No 8, National Treasury Management Agency (Amendment) Bill, 2000 – Order for Second Stage and Second Stage; No. 44, Aviation Regulation Bill, 2000 [Seanad] – Second Stage, resumed.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders that (1) Nos. 23 and 24, shall be decided without debate, (2) the proceedings of No. 25, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion within 60 minutes and the following arrangements shall apply: (i) the opening speech of a Minister and the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party shall not exceed ten minutes in each case; (ii) the speech of each other Member called upon shall not exceed five minutes; (iii) Members may share time; and (iv) a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a speech in reply which shall not exceed five minutes, and (3) Private Members' Business shall be No. 67, Courts Bill, 2000 – Second Stage. The proceedings thereon, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 8.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 11 October 2000.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There are three proposals to be put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with Nos. 23 and 24 agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 25 agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with Private Members' Business agreed? Agreed.

Mr. J. Bruton

I assume the Tánaiste is aware that a Member of the House who is a supporter of the Government has refused to appear before a tribunal established by the House and that his case is being referred to the Director of Public Prosecutions. Does the Tánaiste agree it is important that Members be seen to act together to express our support for the tribunal and our condemnation of any Member who fails to co-operate with a duly appointed tribunal? Does she agree that the House should pass such a resolution, if necessary without debate, because I am sure there would be no disagreement in condemning Deputy Lawlor's behaviour?

Mr. Quinn

In view of the extraordinary contempt Deputy Lawlor has displayed to a tribunal of inquiry established unanimously by this House, does the Tánaiste agree it is time for this Deputy to offer his resignation forthwith? Does she agree with Deputy Bruton that we should pass a resolution to that effect unanimously and without debate? The example being set by Deputy Lawlor to every citizen is unparalleled.

Mr. J. Bruton

It is deplorable.

Mr. Quinn

The integrity of this House and this republic depends on resolute action now and not equivocation. He must resign now.

The Tánaiste

As the Deputies have said, this tribunal was established with the unanimous support of all parties, including Deputy Lawlor. It is the desire of every Member that every citizen would fully co-operate with that tribunal, which has been funded by the taxpayers. I very much regret what has happened and I share the views expressed. However, clearly this is a matter for the tribunal and, from what Deputy Bruton said, for the Director of Public Prosecutions. It is not a matter for me or this House. I regret that a Member of the House is not prepared to co-operate with a tribunal established by the Members of this House.

Mr. J. Bruton

I ask the Tánaiste—

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I would prefer if we did not continue this line. It has been stated by the Ceann Comhairle and me on many occasions that matters before a tribunal—

Mr. Shatter

It is a matter of public concern.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

—should be dealt with by the tribunal. This issue is before a tribunal.

Mr. J. Bruton

I do not wish to come into conflict with the Chair on this matter. Matters affecting the tribunal's legal jurisdiction come within the tribunal's competence and that of the courts. Nevertheless, does the Tánaiste agree we have a separate responsibility, as Members of the House, to set standards for the behaviour of Members and that this House must express its total disapproval and disapprobation of the behaviour of a Member of the House in showing contempt for a tribunal set up by this House with the support of the Deputy concerned?

Mr. Quinn

I ask the Tánaiste, on behalf of every Member of the House and every elected politician in the country, to facilitate the alteration of the order of the House later today to allow for the passage of a resolution without debate calling on Deputy Lawlor either to comply with the call by the tribunal to appear before it or immediately resign his seat so as not to bring further disgrace on politics and on democracy. We are united in this. The reputation of every Member of the House is at stake. If we cannot give example to our citizens, why should they follow? I ask that a motion be passed without debate calling on Deputy Lawlor to comply with the request of the tribunal or instantly resign his seat.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

In the light of Standing Order 56, such a motion would not be in order. I remind Deputies that the subject matter of this issue relates to a sitting tribunal established by the Houses under the relevant Acts. Under Standing Order 56 "a matter should not be raised in such an overt manner so that it appears to be an attempt by the Oireachtas to encroach on the functions of the courts or a judicial tribunal". We will not debate this matter. It is not appropriate on the Order of Business. I will allow the Tánaiste to make a brief comment.

Mr. J. Bruton

While I fully understand your position, Sir, the Fine Gael Party will be tabling a motion in the Committee on Procedure and Privileges concerning the position of Deputy Lawlor, of which we take a very serious view. I expect the Fianna Fáil and Progressive Democrats members of the committee will support that motion, as I presume the Labour Party will.

The Tánaiste

Legal issues are involved and everyone will understand my reluctance in particular to deal with that matter. However, that may be the appropriate forum.

Mr. Shatter

Will the Government continue to accept the support of Deputy Lawlor?

Mr. Quinn

You were well prepared to give us your interpretation of Standing Order 56. It is not my intention or the intention of the Labour Party to interfere with the jurisdiction of the courts or the operation of a tribunal. On the contrary, we wish to facilitate their operation and not interfere or obstruct. It will be on the heads of Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats as to how they respond to the request that a resolution be passed without debate that Deputy Lawlor either goes to the tribunal or leaves the House.

Mr. J. Bruton

When Deputy Olivia Mitchell raises the shortage of transport in Dublin, which leaves young people stranded and in danger late at night, on the Adjournment of the House this evening, will the Tánaiste, who in the past has taken a sincere if fruitless interest in this matter, ensure that serious and solid answers are given to the concerns expressed?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That does not arise on the Order of Business.

Mr. J. Bruton

I ask the Tánaiste to ensure something is done about the taxi issue.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): The Tánaiste took the last Order of Business of the last session of the Dáil and joined with other Deputies in condemning Garda leaks of the report on the tragic death of John Carthy. The spirit of her reply was that the report should be laid before the Dáil and an opportunity given to discuss it either in a select committee or in the Dáil itself. Three months later why has the Garda report of this tragic event not been published? When will it be published and when will the Dáil be given an opportunity, on behalf of the grieving family, its neighbours and all the people who are concerned about this incident, to discuss it?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Was a promise made, Tánaiste?

The Tánaiste

I made that commitment. I understand from the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform that the report is to be referred to the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights. It will be up to it to decide.

Mr. Howlin

When?

Deputy Higgins (Dublin West) rose.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We cannot debate the matter now.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): For the sake of clarity, will the Tánaiste indicate when the report will be referred to the joint committee? That is a reasonable question which comes within the terms of the Standing Order.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We cannot debate the matter now.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): It relates to the ordering of Dáil business which comes within the terms of the Standing Order governing the Order of Business. Will the Tánaiste indicate when the report into the tragic death of John Carthy will be available to the joint committee?

The Tánaiste

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform will speak to the Attorney General later today and perhaps will be able to clarify the matter at that stage.

Mr. G. Mitchell

In view of the fact that the current generation, unlike previous generations, tend to leave their cars behind when they go for a drink and find it difficult to find a taxi afterwards – I understand a court decision will be made on Friday – will the Road Traffic (Amendment) Bill be brought forward for discussion next week to enable the concerns of Members about late night transport and the related taxi issue to be aired?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I remind the Tánaiste that this subject will be debated later tonight in Private Members' time.

The Tánaiste

Deputy Mitchell is correct, a court decision is due on Friday. The Government decision of last November would have facilitated a further 3,000 taxis in the Dublin area. I very much regret that they have not been brought on stream because of litigation. The Bill to which the Deputy referred will be debated this session. I am not certain the two matters are the same.

Mr. Howlin

Last Thursday on the Order of Business the Taoiseach undertook to provide, following sufficient consideration, for the Minister for Education and Science to make a statement to the House on the Government's reaction to the High Court decision on the rights of children with autism. When will that statement be made?

The Tánaiste

This matter was discussed at the Government meeting today. I understand the Minister will answer questions tomorrow on the matter.

Mr. Howlin

The Taoiseach gave an undertaking last Thursday to provide for a statement by the Minister. Will this be subsumed into questions on the matter?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Tánaiste has dealt with the matter.

Mr. Howlin

This is an important issue. The Standing Order—

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I appreciate that, but the Tánaiste has given a reply on the matter.

Mr. Howlin

Will the Tánaiste consider looking at proper procedure to allow full ventilation of this important issue?

The Tánaiste

That is a reasonable request. Should that remain necessary following questions tomorrow, as it may well do, the Whips could discuss the matter.

Mr. Howlin

I thank the Tánaiste.

Mr. Shatter

In the past eight weeks two families in my constituency and that of my colleague, Deputy Olivia Mitchell, have been bereaved as two young men lost their lives on Dublin streets. Has the Government proposals of any nature to restore order to the streets of Dublin late at night and early in the morning—

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That matter does not arise now.

Mr. Shatter

—and to ensure a visible presence of gardaí to provide young people on their way home from social activities with the protection to which they are entitled?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy's colleague, Deputy Mitchell, will raise the matter on the Adjournment tonight.

Mr. Shatter

Does the Government have proposals of this nature?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is totally out of order.

Mr. Shatter

I am raising the issue of law and order, the Garda Síochána and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform doing his job, which he is abysmally failing to do. Young people's lives are at risk. It is a disgrace the way the Government is failing to address this issue.

Mr. Wall

What contact has the Government had with the Israeli and Lebanese authorities concerning the grave situation in that region? Is the Government satisfied in relation to the safety of all our Defence Forces members in the region?

Mr. Roche

On the same matter, will the revulsion of the Irish people at the extraordinary behaviour of the Israeli army be brought to the attention of the Israeli authorities by the Government? Sixty people were murdered for protesting on the streets of what they regarded as their own state. I hope the revulsion which is widely felt will be transmitted to the Israeli authorities.

The Tánaiste

I will make sure the Deputies' views are brought to the attention of the Minister for Foreign Affairs who is in London with the Taoiseach.

Mr. Higgins

(Mayo): There are several pirate radio stations throughout the country flouting the law and operating with total impugnity. Attention was drawn to the need to update the outdated legislation dealing with pirate radio stations by the Director of Telecommunications Regulation when she addressed the Joint Committee on Public Enterprise and Transport on 6 April. It seems nothing has happened in the meantime. What is the story with regard to the Government's so-called get tough policy in order to put the people concerned out of business?

The Tánaiste

I understand the Minister is studying the comments made at the joint committee.

Mr. R. Bruton

They must be doing a thesis.

Mr. J. Bruton

I wish to ask the Tánaiste two questions about promised legislation. There are 21 Bills in section B, the heads of which have been agreed and the text is being drafted, in respect of 20 of which an indicative date is given as to when the Bill might be presented. There is one exception, the Central Bank Bill, the heads of which have been drafted and approved by Cabinet, in respect of which it is stated that it is not possible to indicate at this stage when it will be presented. Will the Tánaiste enlighten the House as to why this is the case and whether she has anything to do with it? Will the Company Law (Consolidation) Bill, included in section C, the heads of which have not yet been approved by Cabinet, deal with the problem which seems to be holding her up in publishing the reports on the inquiries which she required to be conducted at considerable taxpayers' expense into the affairs of various companies? Is she holding these back for some purpose and, if so, what is the purpose? Is there a legal impediment to her publishing the reports and, if so, what is the legal impediment, or is it the case that the Tánaiste wants to tantalise everybody by being the only person in the House who knows all this information and is not yet willing to share it with the public who paid for it?

Mr. Rabbitte

It is a terrible burden.

Mr. J. Bruton

People are becoming increasingly suspicious in this House – I hate to say this – of the Tánaiste's motives in this matter.

The Tánaiste

The Central Bank Bill deals with very complex issues to do with foreign trusts. It is the complexity of the legislation which has made it impossible to give a precise date, but it will be done as quickly—

Mr. J. Bruton

What complexity?

The Tánaiste

It is very complex legislation dealing with foreign trusts. I am not a parliamentary draftsperson, neither is Deputy Bruton.

Mr. Rabbitte

There is no problem in having a foreign trust in this country. There is no complexity about it.

The Tánaiste

As Deputy Bruton is aware, the Company Law (Consolidation) Bill has nothing whatsoever to do with inquiries. Nobody in this House can break the law and commit a criminal act, which is what the Deputy seems to be asking me to do. I am prohibited from publishing the reports in question. It would be a criminal offence to reveal information contained in them. Two of the reports, those relating to the IIB and Ansbacher, have been presented to Mr. Justice Costello and the inspectors. Others are being completed. Two inquiries into the NIB are before the High Court. There are High Court inspectors who report to the High Court, not to me. I presume they will be published. It is wrong to say that they have cost an enormous amount of taxpayers' money – in comparison with other inquiries they have cost relatively little. With the best will in the world and notwithstanding the outstanding work done by the authorised officer, it has not been possible to have reports published and brought to finality in a way that they can be brought into the public domain. That will happen in the appropriate forum as quickly as possible.

Ms McManus

Is the Tánaiste aware that there is still a serious shortage of nurses in Dublin hospitals?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

A question appropriate to the Order of Business, please.

Ms McManus

My question is about promised legislation. Despite the plundering by the Minister for Health and Children of Third World countries to bring in skilled nurses we still have a problem. The Nursing Bill has been on the legislative programme for some time. Since a new initiative is needed and the Bill would assist in that regard, will the Tánaiste indicate when it will be published? We were promised that the Bill would be published in late 1999. We were then promised it would not be published before late 1999. In a further legislative programme we were promised it would be published in the middle of 2000. We were then promised it would be pub lished in late 2000. In the most recent legislative programme we have been told it is not to be expected before the middle of 2001. Will the Tánaiste say when the Bill will be introduced to the House and when we can start to deal with the crisis in nursing, which is affecting people's lives?

The Tánaiste

Unfortunately, I cannot be precise; I know no more than the Deputy. The heads of the Bill are in preparation. My advice is the same as the Deputy's, namely that it will be introduced in 2001.

Mr. S. Ryan

What about the Minister for Health and Children? He is responsible for nursing.

Ms McManus

This is a crisis. Nurses are involved in saving people's lives and there are not enough of them in the Dublin hospitals.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I call Deputy Michael Higgins. Deputy McManus, I ask you to resume your seat.

Ms McManus

Urgent action is required on this matter.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I ask Deputy McManus to resume her seat. We are moving on with the Order of Business. We have spent a long time on this issue.

Ms McManus

There is a need for the speedy introduction of the Nursing Bill before—

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I ask Deputy McManus to give way to her colleague.

Mr. M. Higgins

Will the Tánaiste make time available today or, failing that, not later than tomorrow to discuss the deteriorating situation in the Middle East? I understand the Minister for Foreign Affairs has attended a meeting in Luxembourg with his European counterparts. It would appear that a very limited mandate was given to Mr. Solana on his visit to the region. Most people are appalled at the loss of life, including the murder of a child. It was an appalling shooting.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

This is not a matter for the Order of Business.

Mr. M. Higgins

It is. It is a matter of great urgency. In a few minutes the House will be asked to agree to a motion by the UN Security Council, yet there has been a flouting of Security Council resolutions in this instance. I ask the Tánaiste to make time available, today or tomorrow, to discuss this matter.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It is not appropriate to ask for time on the Order of Business on the basis that any Deputy could ask for time to be made available to discuss any issue. The pre- cedent in the House is that this is a matter for the Whips.

Mr. M. Higgins

This matter is urgent. People are being murdered in crossfire. We are on the verge of a major conflict in the Middle East. A diplomatic initiative is required. It is appalling.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

The request by Deputy Michael Higgins is reasonable. We should know where we stand on this matter.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Whips discuss such matters and seek agreement.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

A constructive debate could be useful.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It is a matter for the Whips.

Mr. Stagg

It may be difficult for the Whips to agree. Perhaps the Tánaiste could intervene to request them to arrange for a debate. That would not be unusual.

The Tánaiste

We have agreed the Order of Business for today. However, it would be worthwhile if the Whips discussed the matter with a view to possibly arranging a debate for tomorrow.

Mr. Barrett

Will the Tánaiste indicate if the Government has scrapped its decentralisation programme? Does she agree that this a most important matter of forward planning and will she make a statement outlining to the House the reasons it has been scrapped?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is not relevant to the Order of Business. We must move on. A number of Deputies are offering. I ask Deputies to ask questions appropriate to the Order of Business and we will try to include everybody.

Mr. Howlin

When will the work permits Bill be introduced? It is within the Tánaiste's ministerial remit. When will we have a structured mechanism to allow for the issuing of work permits? Will it be accompanied by an appropriate decision following dialogue with the Tánaiste's colleague, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, to allow the families of people granted work permits to come to this country?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is not appropriate to the Order of Business.

Mr. Howlin

It is a scandal that we are inviting doctors and nurses into the country, yet they cannot bring their children and spouses. Will the Tánaiste please respond to that point?

The Tánaiste

The Deputy is aware that there is no legislation in this area. It is being done on an administrative basis, which has been the case for years.

Mr. Farrelly

It is not being done.

The Tánaiste

Yes it is. There is no legislation. It is being done on an administrative basis. However, I agree it is a priority to have legislation in this area. I am discussing the matter with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, especially with regard to the issues around family members. We have made progress and will continue to do so.

Mr. Penrose

Has the Government received the recommendations of the report commissioned by Teagasc for the ESRI in relation to a review of the future number of agriculture training colleges? Is the Government going to accept the emasculation and decimation of the agriculture training facilities for young farmers throughout the country?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I have already ruled that this is a matter for Teagasc and not for this House.

Mr. Penrose

The report is a disgrace and should be thrown into the bin. It seeks to turn out the lights on rural Ireland.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Penrose, I ask you to give way to your colleague, Deputy Gilmore.

Mr. Gilmore

The report of the commission on the private rented housing sector will require legislation. Will the Tánaiste indicate if the Government intends to introduce legislation in this area?

The Tánaiste

The Government has discussed the report. I am not fully certain that legislation is required, but if it is it will be introduced.

Mr. Gormley

Will the Tánaiste indicate why there is still no sign of the greenhouse gas abatement strategy and when will it be published? Why has the Environmental Protection Agency Bill, which was promised this year, been deferred until next year? Does this not indicate that environmental protection is a very low priority for the Government?

The Tánaiste

The Environmental Protection Agency Bill is due to be introduced in the middle of 2001. The greenhouse gas abatement strategy was discussed recently. I am not certain when it will be published and I will communicate with the Deputy.

Dr. Upton

A single BSE infected animal can contaminate up to 116 tonnes of meat and potentially infect 400,000 people. Will the Tánaiste indicate if there is any proposed legislation to protect the Irish consumer from the risk of imported contaminated meat? Will she confirm that there is full co-operation on the BSE problem between the Food Safety Authority and the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development?

The Tánaiste

The Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development assures me I can confirm that there is such full co-operation. I understand that legislation provides full protection in this area, but if there are any deficiencies perhaps we can address them in the future.

Mr. Rabbitte

With regard to the Companies (Consolidation) Bill, the Tánaiste told Deputy John Bruton that she has discovered there are legal impediments to publishing her various studies. Why did she not know that when in the dog days of Christmas 1997 in full page interviews she promised to reveal the terrible secrets she had discovered?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That does not arise on the Order of Business.

Mr. Rabbitte

On promised legislation, has the Government abandoned plans for a single financial regulator or is there a meeting of minds yet between the Tánaiste and the Minister for Finance?

The Tánaiste

It was never the intention to publish preliminary inquiries. It is certainly the intention to finalise all the reports.

Mr. Rabbitte

We have had several interviews.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Allow the Tánaiste to respond without interruption. I call Deputy Broughan.

Mr. J. Bruton

These reports are more valuable to the Tánaiste in anticipation than in publication.

Mrs. Owen

She told us we would be shocked by the outcome of the findings.

The Tánaiste

The affidavit that went to the court last year spoke volumes about what is involved. It is regrettable that people are tying to make fun of it or trying to apply motives, as Deputy Bruton sought to do a while ago. We have not abandoned plans to establish a financial regulator. I hope we will be in a position to publish legislation soon.

Mrs. Owen

Has agreement been reached?

Mr. Rabbitte

Who wrote them?

The Tánaiste

It is an ill wind.

Mr. Rabbitte

The Minister for Finance is having a bad run.

Mr. Broughan

Since carer's benefit is due to be introduced before the end of the month what is the time frame for the introduction of the carer's leave legislation? On the jobs initiative, the Tánaiste is probably aware that all over the country the first tranche of jobs initiative workers who man many community projects are coming to the end of their three term in December. Is the Tánaiste prepared to come into the House and make a statement on the likely future of those workers and the projects in which they are engaged?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The first question is in order.

The Tánaiste

In reply to the second question, I have made many statements in this House. The carer's leave Bill will be published this session.

Mr. Naughten

When will the transport Bill to establish a rail infrastructure procurement agency be published? Will the Tánaiste allow time for the Minister for Public Enterprise to come before the House to apologise to the Galway supporters who were marooned in County Kildare last Saturday and could not get to the All-Ireland final?