Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

The Order of Business today shall be as follows: No. 27a, motion re Vocational Education (Amendment) Bill, 2000; No. 27b, technical motion re second Further Revised Estimate – Vote 32; No. 58, Statements on the European Council meeting, Gothenburg; No. 59, Statements on the Nice Referendum (Resumed); No. 60, Agriculture Appeals Bill, 2001 [Seanad] – Second Stage (Resumed); No. 61, Vocational Education (Amendment) Bill, 2000 – Order for Report and Report and Final Stages; No. 10, Irish National Petroleum Corporation Limited Bill, 2001 – Second Stage (Resumed) and Subsequent Stages, in accordance with an order of the Dáil of 20 June 2001.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that: (1) the Dáil shall sit later than 4.45 p.m. today and business shall be interrupted not later than 10 p.m., the sitting shall be suspended from 1.30 p.m. to 2.30 p.m. and from 6.30 p.m. to 7 p.m.; (2) Nos. 27a and 27b shall be decided without debate and in the case of No. 27b, any division demanded thereon shall be taken forthwith; (3) the proceedings of No. 58, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion after 70 minutes and statements shall be confined to the following Members, who shall be called upon in the following sequence, and the following arrangements shall apply; (i) the statement of the Taoiseach and the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party shall not exceed 20 minutes in each case; and (ii) a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a statement in reply which will not exceed ten minutes; (4) the resumed proceedings on No. 59 shall, if not previously concluded, adjourn after one hour; (5) the proceedings on the resumed Second Stage of No. 60 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 4.30 p.m.; No. 60 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 4.30 p.m.; Report and Final Stages of No.61 shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 6.30 p.m. by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Education and Science; (7 ) the Dáil shall sit tomorrow at 10.30 a.m. and shall adjourn not later than 4 p.m.; there shall be no Order of Business, i.e. within the meaning of Standing Order 26 (2) and (3), and accordingly the following business shall be transacted in the following order: No. 1 – Sex Offenders Bill, 2000 – Amendments from the Seanad; No. 62 – Motor Vehicle (Duties and Licences) Bill, 2001 – Order for Report and Report and Final Stages; Electoral (Amendment) Bill, 2000 [Seanad] – Second Stage; (8) the proceedings on No.1, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 11.30 a.m. tomorrow and any amendments from the Seanad not disposed of shall be decided by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments to the Seanad amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and (9) the Report and Final Stages of No. 62, shall be taken tomorrow and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 12.30 p.m. by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for the Environment and Local Government.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are nine proposals to be put to the House. The first is the proposal on the late sitting. Is that agreed?

Mr. Noonan

I am opposing this proposal. The Fine Gael Party wants the Minister for Foreign Affairs and the Taoiseach to answer questions after the Gothenburg statements this morning. This Government is now so divided that the Taoiseach is relying on the three musketeers to support him in the House. Cabinet Ministers do not attend anymore and we have all the applicants for any future vacancy lined up for interview in the second row.

A Deputy

The would-bes.

Mr. Noonan

It is unreal that the Gothenburg Summit should be dismissed by way of formal statements and the Opposition is not given any opportunity to hold the relevant Minister and the Taoiseach to account here in the House and to ask the Taoiseach where does the Government now stand on the key European issues. From public statements of Ministers and junior Ministers, there is no leadership, no coherence, no credibility and there is no possibility of this Government leading us forward in a manner which deals adequately with the major European questions.

Mr. Quinn

The House is being asked to provide extra time on this first proposal, but extra time for what? I made the request two days ago that the traditional format of reporting back on the summits of the European Council should in this instance be changed because of the significance of the summit coming immediately after the referendum. There should be provision, first and foremost, for the eurosceptics in the Fianna Fáil Party to be able to come out of hiding and in this forum articulate their eurosceptical views and to be countered very effectively by Minister of State, Deputy Tom Kitt.

Mr. J. Mitchell

Come out, Deputy Kitt.

Mr. Quinn

There should be space for parties other than the three main parties to express their views. There should be space for independent Deputies to express their views on this critical summit. There should be space and time for Deputies in the Labour Party and in the Fine Gael Party who wish to express their views. There should be questions and answers as has been the case in the past. That request was communicated to the Taoiseach when he was here on Tuesday. I understood, and perhaps the Minister for Foreign Affairs can correct me if I am wrong, that what was proffered informally between the two of them was the possibility of a debate in the relevant committee, as was the case before. But we have not been here before and a matter of this importance requires for it to be debated and questioned and argued here in this House in plenary session where the full attention of the fourth estate can be focused in upon what is being said. It is totally unacceptable for this matter to be dealt with in such a way where we get a series of statements.

I say to you, Sir, that you will have to look at the way in which you interpret Standing Orders if on the basis of a debate, you rule out questions from individual Deputies two days in advance because it anticipates debate when there will be no debate, there will be a series of statements. Colleagues who put down legitimate questions arising from the outcome of the Gothenburg Summit were ruled out of order because of your narrow interpretation of—

An Ceann Comhairle

Standing Order 34 is very clear. The Chair's interpretation is quite consistent in this matter.

Mr. Quinn

I am respectfully suggesting to you, Sir, and to your colleagues who assist you so professionally—

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputy wants to change Standing Order 34, it is very clear. The Chair's interpretation is quite consistent in this matter.

Mr. Quinn

I am respectfully suggesting to you, Sir, and to your colleagues who assist you so professionally—

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputy wants to change Standing Order 34, the Deputy has the power to do that.

Mr. Quinn

I am saying, Sir, and the Committee on Procedure and Privilege will in due course debate this, that the word "statements" is quite different to the word "debate". Ruling out parliamentary questions because they anticipate debate is totally erroneous in my view.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should not challenge the Chair. The Chair's interpretation has been quite consistent on this matter and very clear.

Mr. Quinn

I would never challenge the Chair, you know that.

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputy wants a change, the Deputy has the power to do that with the reform committee.

Mr. Quinn

I am simply saying, Sir, that in addition to the reasons that I stated for opposing this Order of Business, I believe, with all due respect, that the word "statements" and the—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair has no intention of changing its decision.

Mr. Quinn

Maybe it is time we should review that.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is up to Members to change the Standing Order if they wish that change. It is not up to the Chair. The Chair has no power to change Standing Orders.

Mr. Quinn

The Chair has every power to change its interpretation of Standing Orders.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair has been consistent down the years in relation to this matter. The Chair has no intention, and let me make this quite clear, of changing the interpretation. The Chair's interpretation is the correct one. It is up to the House to change the rule if it so wishes. Members should not avoid changing the rule if they wish to change it.

Mr. Quinn

All the more reason then, Sir, for a robust opposition to this proposed set of statements confined to a limited number of speakers in this House, without any possibility of holding to account the Government that is now clearly in shambles for what happened in Gothenburg and how it proposes to deal with it.

Mr. Belton

Unprecedented.

Mr. Sargent

The Green Party also objects to the current proposal before the House in regard to the limited late sitting. There is no doubt that there is a need for a question and answer session on Gothenburg and if it needs to take longer than is provided for, then let us talk about giving it more time. There is already a precedent for this. We had question and answer sessions about the foot and mouth crisis. We now have an outbreak of foot in mouth disease in the Government. There is now even greater need for question and answer sessions. On the basis of these statements, questions were disallowed from Deputy Gormley and myself and from many other Deputies on the Gothenburg Summit and on the outcome of the Nice referendum. It is a sham to say that these statements will substitute for answering those questions. There needs to be a clear debate, particularly given President Romano Prodi's statement that we were being misled as a people by this Government and the main Opposition parties in saying that enlargement depended on the Nice treaty. Clearly, legally that is not the case. We need clarification. It is the greatest misleading of this House and the people of this country since the foundation of the State. There has been unanimity on the part of the larger parties to mislead the people.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for the late sitting agreed to?

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): I wish to make a point of order. This is outrageous.

Question put: "That the late sitting be agreed to."

Tá

Ahern, Bertie.Ahern, Michael.Ahern, Noel.Ardagh, Seán.Blaney, Harry.Brady, Johnny.Brady, Martin.Brennan, Matt.Brennan, Séamus.Briscoe, Ben.Browne, John (Wexford).Byrne, Hugh.Carey, Pat.Collins, Michael.Cooper-Flynn, Beverley.Coughlan, Mary.Cowen, Brian.Daly, Brendan.Dennehy, John.Doherty, Seán.Ellis, John.Fahey, Frank.Fleming, Seán.Flood, Chris.Gildea, Thomas.Hanafin, Mary.Harney, Mary.Haughey, Seán.Healy-Rae, Jackie.Jacob, Joe.Keaveney, Cecilia.Kelleher, Billy.Kenneally, Brendan.

Killeen, Tony.Kirk, Séamus.Kitt, Michael P.Kitt, Tom.Lenihan, Conor.McCreevy, Charlie.McDaid, James.McGennis, Marian.McGuinness, John J.Martin, Micheál.Moffatt, Thomas.Molloy, Robert.Moloney, John.Moynihan, Donal.Ó Cuív, Éamon.O'Donnell, Liz.O'Flynn, Noel.O'Hanlon, Rory.O'Keeffe, Ned.O'Malley, Desmond.O'Rourke, Mary.Roche, Dick.Ryan, Eoin.Smith, Brendan.Smith, Michael.Treacy, Noel.Wade, Eddie.Wallace, Dan.Wallace, Mary.Walsh, Joe.Woods, Michael.Wright, G. V.

Níl

Allen, Bernard.Barnes, Monica.Bell, Michael.Belton, Louis J.Boylan, Andrew.Bradford, Paul.Broughan, Thomas P.Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).Burke, Ulick.Connaughton, Paul.Currie, Austin.De Rossa, Proinsias.Deasy, Austin.Deenihan, Jimmy.Durkan, Bernard.Enright, Thomas.Finucane, Michael.Fitzgerald, Frances.Gilmore, Éamon.Higgins, Jim.Higgins, Joe.Higgins, Michael.McCormack, Pádraic.McDowell, Derek.McGinley, Dinny.

McGrath, Paul.McManus, Liz.Mitchell, Gay.Mitchell, Jim.Mitchell, Olivia.Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.Neville, Dan.Noonan, Michael.O'Keeffe, Jim.O'Shea, Brian.O'Sullivan, Jan.Owen, Nora.Penrose, William.Perry, John.Quinn, Ruairí.Rabbitte, Pat.Reynolds, Gerard.Ring, Michael.Ryan, Seán.Sargent, Trevor.Shatter, Alan.Shortall, Róisín.Stagg, Emmet.Stanton, David.Timmins, Billy.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies S. Brennan and Briscoe; Níl, Deputies Stagg and Bradford.

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

The second proposal is the proposal for dealing with items 27f2>a and 27f2>b, Motion re Vocational Education (Amendment) Bill, 2000, and the Estimates. Is that agreed?

Mr. Sargent

It is incredible that we can just take that vote and move on as if nothing happened. Essentially we are talking about an Order of Business in the face of grossly misleading—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is only entitled to speak if he is opposing this proposal.

Mr. Sargent

I do not think it is possible to support an Order of Business in the light of what is essentially—

An Ceann Comhairle

This is not the Order of Business; this is a proposal for dealing with two items under the Order of Business.

Mr. Sargent

I oppose it because this is undemocratic.

An Ceann Comhairle

I shall put the question: "That the proposal for dealing with items 27f2>a and 27f2>b, Motion re Vocational Education (Amendment) Bill, 2000, and the Estimates be agreed to."

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the third proposal for dealing with item 58, Statements on the European Council Meeting at Gothenburg, agreed?

Mr. Gormley

No.

Mr. Noonan

There have been innumerable precedents in this House where, when a Taoiseach or a Minister makes a statement, an opportunity is given to the Opposition to question the Taoiseach or Minister. On this occasion it is very appropriate that the Opposition would ask questions after the Taoiseach makes his statement on Gothenburg. There is no coherence in Government policy. There is absolute confusion now as to what the Taoiseach intends doing in respect of ratification of the Nice treaty and what his policy is towards enlargement in Europe. We have discordant voices coming from the Minister for Finance who accompanied him to Gothenburg. The Minister of State, Deputy Kitt, takes a diametrically opposed view to that of the Minister for Finance. We have the passing remarks of the Minister, Deputy de Valera, and we have the contortionist efforts of Minister of State, Deputy Ó Cuív. In circumstances where the Taoiseach claims to be willing to be accountable to the House, it is reasonable that on this occasion more than any other, he would allow us to ask questions and he would answer them as fully as possible.

The Fine Gael Whip is available for any discussions with the Government Whip to come to an appropriate arrangement so that after statements are concluded, we can ask questions. After the Gothenburg statements are concluded, the Order of Business shows that the debate on Nice will continue. We can give up some time on that debate to accommodate questions instead and there will be no loss of progress on the Government's legislative timetable if he agrees to proceed on that basis.

This is profoundly unsatisfactory. It is no wonder that the people voted "No" when they see the manner in which we treat serious issues here. It is no wonder that they rebel against the advice of the main political parties when those parties are put in such an ineffective position in this House by the Taoiseach forcing through statements without making himself accountable with the effect that the key questions cannot be answered.

Mr. Quinn

I will not say all that I said before. However, having heard what has been said here with conviction, is the Taoiseach now prepared to change the Order of Business to work with the proposal suggested by Deputy Noonan to take part if not all of the hour allocated to the ongoing discussion on Nice as provided for today? That is not to say that matter should end today, but it could be scheduled for another time. That extra hour could be allocated to other parties and individuals and to both wings of Fianna Fáil, including an opportunity for Minister of State, Deputy Ó Cuív, to come in as a Deputy or a citizen or whatever reinvention of himself he chooses, to explain to this House how he was able to advise "Yes" and vote "No". We have the time for all those things. The country is watching us. Are we to have the sort of debate and listening process which has been promised by so many Ministers?

If we are to have that debate and listening process, today is the day to start and this is the place to do it. There is an hour which can be allocated and the rest of the Government's legislative programme for today will not be affected in any way. I urge the Taoiseach to accept the proposal and let the Whips allocate the time accordingly. Otherwise, we will just have a farce and we may as well fax our statements to each other and give the time to the completion of parliamentary debate because that, in effect, is what will happen. I ask the Taoiseach to respond and to consider a reasonable request.

Mr. Gormley

This proposal is entirely unacceptable to the Green Party, Sinn Féin, the Socialists and the Independents. The Government must remember that 54% of the Irish people voted "No". The parties in this House who represent that "No" vote are being excluded from this debate. How can that be called democracy? Is that what the Taoiseach calls democracy? This is the same Taoiseach who said at Gothenburg that the Nice treaty was only about enlargement. Yet Mr. Prodi has come out today and told the truth of what it was about. Of course the Taoiseach does not want debate. He wants to stonewall on the issue. He does not want to reveal the contradictions in his own party on this matter. That is why he is trying to curtail this debate. I can tell him that if he is going to try to stop us from speaking, we will stop him from speaking when he tries here today.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): I wish to raise a point of order.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Higgins, on a point of order.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): Yesterday, the Chair disallowed questions which I had put down to the Taoiseach—

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not a point of order. The Deputy should make a point of order.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): Yesterday, the carpet was pulled from under me on the Gothenburg question. Today, I am being gagged by the Government on the same issue, which I was not allowed to deal with yesterday because of today's statements. I am being condemned to silence by the Government.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should come to his point of order.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): I am asking you, A Cheann Comhairle, to allow democracy to rule. Even at this late stage, let the Government make time available to the Greens, the Socialists and the others and provide time for questions as well.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

An Taoiseach, without interruption.

The Taoiseach

May I make just a few points? Some months ago I was asked about this procedure which has operated unchanged here for 30 years with regard to statements. It has remained unchanged even though people from all sides of the House have sought change over the years. I certainly did so when in opposition and was refused by the Rainbow Coalition Government at all times. Last Christmas when I was asked about this, I said that it was, perhaps, unsatisfactory and I would be prepared to look at the system. I was then asked to arrange for a debate at the Foreign Affairs Committee and the European Affairs Committee and I provided for that. I do not wish to comment on those meetings or on the number of people who attended, but I did provide the facility which was requested.

Within recent days, we have had foreign affairs issues in my question time, including preparation for Gothenburg. The Minister for Foreign Affairs has also answered questions on the issue. He spent two and a half hours yesterday on the Foreign Affairs Estimate and I understand he is meeting today with the chairperson and others on the European Affairs Committee to discuss possible changes with regard to that committee. If people want further questions at some other committee, we will certainly look at that. However, there is an established practice of statements by the Leaders immediately after European Council meetings and that is what is taking place today.

I was asked last week to continue the Nice treaty debate and there was a big argument that we were trying to close it down. I agreed to the request. I have also said we are moving as quickly as we can to a forum on Europe in which all the political parties will have their full input. I will again outline the views of the Government today. Those views will be consistent and will remain so.

Question put: "That the proposal for dealing with item 58 – Statements on the Euro Summit in Gothenburg – be agreed to."

Tá

Kenneally, Brendan.Killeen, Tony.Kirk, Séamus.Kitt, Michael P.Kitt, Tom.Lenihan, Conor.McCreevy, Charlie.McDaid, James.McGennis, Marian.McGuinness, John J.Martin, Micheál.Moffatt, Thomas.Molloy, Robert.Moloney, John.Moynihan, Donal.Ó Cuív, Éamon.O'Donnell, Liz.O'Flynn, Noel.O'Hanlon, Rory.O'Keeffe, Ned.O'Rourke, Mary.Roche, Dick.Ryan, Eoin.Smith, Brendan.Smith, Michael.Treacy, Noel.Wade, Eddie.Wallace, Dan.Wallace, Mary.Woods, Michael.Wright, G. V.

Níl

Allen, Bernard.Barnes, Monica.Bell, Michael.Belton, Louis J.Boylan, Andrew.Bradford, Paul.Broughan, Thomas P.Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).Burke, Ulick.Connaughton, Paul.Currie, Austin.De Rossa, Proinsias.Deasy, Austin.Durkan, Bernard.Finucane, Michael.Fitzgerald, Frances.Gilmore, Éamon.Gormley, John.Higgins, Jim.Higgins, Joe.Higgins, Michael.Howlin, Brendan.McCormack, Pádraic.McDowell, Derek.McGinley, Dinny.

McGrath, Paul.McManus, Liz.Mitchell, Gay.Mitchell, Jim.Mitchell, Olivia.Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.Naughten, Denis.Neville, Dan.Noonan, Michael.O'Keeffe, Jim.O'Shea, Brian.O'Sullivan, Jan.Owen, Nora.Penrose, William.Perry, John.Quinn, Ruairí.Rabbitte, Pat.Ring, Michael.Ryan, Seán.Sargent, Trevor.Shatter, Alan.Shortall, Róisín.Stagg, Emmet.Stanton, David.Timmins, Billy.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies S. Brennan and Briscoe; Níl, Deputies Bradford and Stagg.

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

The fourth proposal is the proposal for dealing with item 59, resumed, statements on the Nice Referendum. Is that agreed?

Mr. Sargent

Again we are looking at an item on which there are only statements. Will the Leas-Cheann Comhairle allow the Taoiseach articulate why he is refusing once again to give leadership when there is clearly a demand for questions and answers on the outcomes of the Nice treaty referendum and the Gothenburg Summit? The majority of this House, and of the Irish people, desire leadership in this regard and want a substantial debate – not only statements – on the result of the referendum on the Nice treaty.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is Deputy Sargent opposing the proposal?

Mr. Sargent

I am.

The Taoiseach

I would love to answer the Deputy. The desire for a debate is precisely why we are establishing a forum on Europe.

Mr. Gormley

We want answers.

Mr. Sargent

The people's parliament—

The Taoiseach

The last thing Deputy Gormley wants is answers because he does not agree with any answer he receives.

Mr. Sargent

—got an answer from President Prodi.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Quinn

The Taoiseach should, at least, listen to the request. While there may be very constructive dialogue in the various committees, it does not receive attention from the fourth estate. The coverage this issue requires does not exist. It may be a reflection on us or the editors from Montrose or wherever who decide what to report from the House, but the demand for a debate in this House while in plenary session is to maximise publicity.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. G. Mitchell

There is a task force on European communications that I used to chair, and the Minister of State, Deputy Tom Kitt, before me. Will the Taoiseach state what has happened to that task force and why is it not proceeding? A lot of money was spent setting it up when it was shifted out of the Department of the Taoiseach. This issue must be examined.

Question put: "That the proposal for dealing with item No. 59, Resumed – Statements on Nice Treaty – be agreed to".

Tá

Ahern, Bertie.Ahern, Michael.Ahern, Noel.Ardagh, Seán.Blaney, Harry.Brady, Johnny.Brady, Martin.Brennan, Matt.Brennan, Séamus.Briscoe, Ben.Browne, John (Wexford).Byrne, Hugh.Carey, Pat.Collins, Michael.Cooper-Flynn, Beverley.Coughlan, Mary.Cowen, Brian.Cullen, Martin.Daly, Brendan.Dennehy, John.Doherty, Seán.Ellis, John.Fahey, Frank.Fleming, Seán.Flood, Chris.Gildea, Thomas.Hanafin, Mary.Harney, Mary.Haughey, Seán.Healy-Rae, Jackie.Jacob, Joe.Keaveney, Cecilia.

Kelleher, Billy.Kenneally, Brendan.Killeen, Tony.Kirk, Séamus.Kitt, Michael P.Kitt, Tom.Lenihan, Conor.McCreevy, Charlie.McDaid, James.McGennis, Marian.McGuinness, John J.Martin, Micheál.Moffatt, Thomas.Molloy, Robert.Moloney, John.Moynihan, Donal.Ó Cuív, Éamon.O'Donnell, Liz.O'Flynn, Noel.O'Keeffe, Ned.O'Rourke, Mary.Roche, Dick.Ryan, Eoin.Smith, Brendan.Smith, Michael.Treacy, Noel.Wade, Eddie.Wallace, Dan.Wallace, Mary.Woods, Michael.Wright, G. V.

Níl

Allen, Bernard.Barnes, Monica.Bell, Michael.Belton, Louis J.Boylan, Andrew.Bradford, Paul.Broughan, Thomas P.Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).Burke, Ulick.Carey, Donal.Connaughton, Paul.Currie, Austin.De Rossa, Proinsias.Deasy, Austin.Durkan, Bernard.Finucane, Michael.Fitzgerald, Frances.Gilmore, Éamon.Gormley, John.Higgins, Jim.Higgins, Joe.Higgins, Michael.Howlin, Brendan.McCormack, Pádraic.McDowell, Derek.

McGinley, Dinny.McGrath, Paul.McManus, Liz.Mitchell, Gay.Mitchell, Jim.Mitchell, Olivia.Naughten, Denis.Neville, Dan.Noonan, Michael.O'Keeffe, Jim.O'Shea, Brian.O'Sullivan, Jan.Owen, Nora.Penrose, William.Perry, John.Quinn, Ruairí.Rabbitte, Pat.Ring, Michael.Ryan, Seán.Sargent, Trevor.Shortall, Róisín.Stagg, Emmet.Stanton, David.Timmins, Billy.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies S. Brennan and Briscoe; Níl, Deputies Bradford and Stagg.

Question declared carried.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with item 60 agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with item 61 agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for the sitting and business of the Dáil tomorrow agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with amendments from the Seanad in regard to the Sex Offenders Bill, 2000, tomorrow agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with the Report and Final Stages of the Motor Vehicle (Duties and Licences) Bill, 2001, tomorrow agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Quinn

May I clarify a point in relation to item 7? My understanding is that there will be no guillotine on Second Stage of the Electoral (Amendment) Bill. Is that correct?

The Taoiseach

That is correct.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We will now have leaders' questions.

Mr. Noonan

The Taoiseach was in Scotland yesterday trying to persuade the Scottish Parliament that it should look to Ireland as a model of good government. While he had his back turned the crisis in his Government deepened. He now leads an Administration that is divided on Europe, on health service funding, on asylum and immigration policy and on local government reform. Having lost control over his Cabinet, he now appears to be losing control of his backbenchers also.

The Taoiseach has licensed this rebellion by his weak leadership. Does he agree he is leading a lame duck Administration which does not have the capacity to deal with the key issues facing the Irish people, such as the deteriorating health service, the housing crisis, worsening traffic gridlock and, in particular, the crisis on European policy and the emerging crisis in Northern Ireland?

Mr. Quinn

Next Tuesday, 26 June, we will celebrate four failed years of this Administration. Does the Taoiseach agree the open revolt of backbenchers while he was away in relation to local government matters and the fact that he can bow to the wishes of four Deputies who are outside the coalition Government yet is incapable of bowing to the wishes of four Deputies who are an intrinsic part of the coalition Government, with respect to the right of asylum seekers being permitted to work once they are six months or longer in this country, is an indication of the disarray in this Administration? Does he not think it is time to go to the Phoenix Park and ask the President for a dissolution of the Dáil as he is no longer capable of giving this Parliament or the nation the leadership it so desperately needs?

The Taoiseach

I can assure the Deputies, as I did last week, that we will proceed to deal with the aftermath of the Nice referendum. There are important issues to be dealt with and the forum on Europe has to be established. President Prodi will be in Ireland for the next few days and I look forward to assuring him, as I did last weekend, of our strategy to deal with this issue. I am sure others will join us in that strategy.

I am glad members of my parliamentary party can have views on issues.

Mr. Quinn

On the double salary.

The Taoiseach

It is good that so many people listen when members of my party express their views.

Mr. Quinn

The Taoiseach can hit the road now.

The Taoiseach

We do not have to fear people expressing their views. That is why they are elected to this House. There are many Members of the House whose views are never heard. Local government is an important issue and we are probably carrying out the most fundamental reform in that area ever initiated in this House. I am glad we are doing that and we will continue on that course.

With regard to the Government, I had almost forgotten the relevant date and I thank Deputy Quinn for reminding me of it. As we reach the end of our fourth year in office, it is worth recalling that we have created more than 300,000 new jobs—

Mr. Howlin

One thousand jobs were lost last week.

The Taoiseach

—more than halving the unemployment rate to 3.6%. We have increased the workforce to almost 1.8 million.

Ms McManus

What about the patients on trolleys?

Mr. Howlin

Tell that to the people of Wexford.

The Taoiseach

We have introduced a national development plan charting Ireland's future economic success. We have doubled the amount of money spent on health and initiated a complete review of the health service.

Ms McManus

What about the long queues?

The Taoiseach

We re-established the ceasefires of the paramilitary organisations in the North and—

Mr. G. Mitchell

When will the Taoiseach refloat the Lusitania?

The Taoiseach

—as Deputy Noonan knows, there is a difficult situation there over the next few weeks but we will continue to work on it. In all our budgets we have managed to put more money in people's pockets and generally make them far happier and we will continue to do that.

I promise to do as I am constitutionally obliged and to take Deputy Quinn's advice in 12 months.

Mr. Noonan

If one envisages government as a marathon, I put it to the Taoiseach that this Government has now hit the wall and will make little progress in future. The Taoiseach's lack of leadership, his ambiguity in dealing with problems and his propensity to duck for cover when there is a difficult issue are coming back to haunt him. He has little capacity left to lead this Administration forward in a manner which will deal with the key issues. Is it not time to step aside, go to the Phoenix Park and hold an election at the first possible date?

The Taoiseach

I thank the Deputy for his concern but I do not intend to take his advice. This Administration will continue. It is as united an Administration—

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

It is united on one thing, holding onto power.

The Taoiseach

—as I have ever dealt with.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Rabbitte

United colours of Benetton.

The Taoiseach

I recall serving in an Administration with Deputy Quinn and my biggest concern was holding onto my head because people were going around with baskets looking for heads. That does not happen in this Administration.

Mr. G. Mitchell

You were all dead already.

The Taoiseach

This Administration will continue to successfully implement its programme for Government in a coherent manner.

Mr. Quinn

As we approach the deadline of 1 July, a deadline nobody wants but one which is determined by First Minister Trimble as essential if he is to maintain the support of his party, statements were made today by representatives of Sinn Féin, speaking or purporting to speak either on behalf of the Republican leadership or some other nuanced code for the combined leadership of Sinn Féin and the IRA, that the IRA would not bow to a demand for decommissioning from either the Unionist Party or David Trimble. Does the Taoiseach agree the demand for decommissioning comes from the democratically expressed will of an over-riding majority of the Irish people, expressed in two referenda in May 1998, and that the demand for decommissioning is not coming from one section of the political landscape in Northern Ireland but from every person on the island who voted in such overwhelming terms in those referenda? Does he share my view that the people who purport to turn this into a Northern Irish confrontation between representatives of Sinn Féin and the IRA on the one hand and representatives of the Unionist Party on the other are not listening to the democratically expressed view of Irish people on all parts of this island? Using his authority will the Taoiseach ask the leadership of Sinn Féin, who are the people who have access to the people with guns – as the Taoiseach said so clearly in this House on Tuesday – to bear in mind that this is not a demand coming from David Trimble but a demand expressed democratically and simultaneously on both parts of this island for the first time since 1918?

Mr. Noonan

Will the Taoiseach at an early date brief the Opposition on the present state of negotiations lest, through any lack of information on our part, we would say something which might create a difficulty for the Taoiseach's negotiating position?

The Taoiseach

I will arrange that as soon as we get through some important meetings today and tomorrow. As soon as they are completed, the two Governments will have a clear position.

On Deputy Quinn's point, we are in a dilemma, for one reason or another. As I spelt out here the other day, while Mr. Trimble set a date, which clearly is always unhelpful, it is no different to the date which was set anyway because we said that this issue had to be dealt with before the marching season, which is well nigh ready to start as we can see from the tensions in Northern Ireland in a number of communities.

There has been a number of difficult days in Northern Ireland and I thank those who have been involved in trying to cool the tensions in the various front line positions where these tensions have been evident. Some of these issues have got quite a good deal of publicity while others have not, but a number of people have worked extremely hard to lessen those tensions.

The stated position of the two Governments and all of the parties, in reply to Deputy Quinn, is that the Good Friday Agreement will be fully implemented. It is the one issue on which everybody agrees. To deal with that, all of the parties have stated that there are four issues with which they want dealt comprehensively. They have different views on, and different ways of, implementing them and there are different nuances and interpretations, but there are four issues.

On policing, it is quite clear that the only way of seeking agreement is by sticking as closely as possible to the Patten report. Going short of the Patten report or beyond the Patton report will create difficulties, as I see it.

Demilitarisation is an important issue to try to reduce the security infrastructure in Northern Ireland, but that has been achieved to quite a degree in the past three years. We are unlikely to see any further developments on that until we see substantive progress on decommissioning and the institutions cannot have security of tenure unless we also deal with the outstanding issues.

Therefore, we come back to the issue of an understanding on decommissioning on which we can make progress. What the Irish Government is trying to do is make sure we can build on the stated position of 6 May 2000, that arms will be put beyond use in a verifiable way, presumably under the control of General John de Chastelain, as chairperson of the Independent Commission on Decommissioning, to the satisfaction of the public. It is correct to say that the public voted for that.

Some people are trying to say that decommissioning did not form a part of the Good Friday Agreement. I would refer them to what was stated in the Good Friday Agreement on decom missioning. Decommissioning is in the Agreement and it clearly means one thing, that we were to set up a commission to deal with the issue.

I know that imposing deadlines is always unhelpful in Northern Ireland, but the reality is that if the two Governments are to succeed in making sure the will of the people on 22 May 1998 is adhered to, that means decommissioning is one of the issues which must be dealt with. I ask all concerned to make sure that over these coming days they help to create the circumstances where we can do that. They know well how they can do that.

I want to answer another question which has been raised outside the House because we are coming to important negotiation days on these issues, that is, that the decommissioning did not happen as per the 6 May 2000 deadline because progress was not made on policing and on demilitarisation. The Irish Government's position is that we are ready to try to resolve that issue. We are ready to try to complete the agenda on policing and on demilitarisation and if we can achieve that, it should solve the problem. However, statements made outside of this House that we cannot make any progress because of what happened in May or June 2000 are wrong.

What is important is that people have stated that they are prepared to deal with the issue of decommissioning, and I welcome that. I understand they are not prepared to make progress until we deal with the issues of policing and demilitarisation. Having spoken to the Secretary of State, Dr. John Reid, last night and to the Prime Minister Mr. Blair on Monday, I can say the two Governments are ready to deal with these issues. Therefore, I hope people get down to serious negotiations and try to assist the two Governments in helping the parties achieve what they wish, that is, full implementation of the Good Friday Agreement. If we do not get that we will face a real crisis.

Mr. Quinn

Does the Taoiseach share the view that an understandable tolerance was extended from the various political parties in this State and from the London and Dublin Governments to Sinn Féin following the Omagh atrocity, in support their desire to ensure that there would not be a split in the republican movement and a resurgence of support for either Republican Sinn Féin in the ballot box or for the Continuity IRA? Does he share the view that the outcome of the most recent elections in Northern Ireland, which saw Sinn Féin win four seats in Westminster and significantly increase its seats right across the 26 district councils in Northern Ireland, and the failure of Republican Sinn Féin to manifest any evidence of electoral support, negates the pleas made in private or in subtext or in the nuances of the code of what constitutes political progress and dialogue, that Sinn Féin needs to maintain the presence of the IRA or that decommissioning might be seen to be premature against that background? If the Taoiseach shares that analysis, can he assure the House that when he next meets the leadership of the Republican movement – we know Sinn Féin and the IRA are two sides of the one coin as the Taoiseach has said frequently in this House – he will make it clear, with all of the authority he can muster on behalf of all of the democrats in this Assembly and all of the citizens in this State, that the tolerance which has been extended by us in encouraging Sinn Féin down the democratic path will come to an end if the Good Friday Agreement is sabotaged by its intransigence?

The Taoiseach

Certainly I share those sentiments. We must find a way of dealing with all of the outstanding issues, one of which is decommissioning. Let us not forget the other issues which must be dealt with to achieve a comprehensive agreement.

As I have said continually and as the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Cowen, has said, we expect the Republican movement to play its role in finding a resolution to this issue. Even last night the movement said it was prepared to find a resolution to the decommissioning issue but not in this or that circumstance. The only circumstances in which we and the British Government are asking them to resolve this issue of decommissioning is in the context of the full implementation of the Agreement.

Mr. Quinn

Hear, hear.

The Taoiseach

It is not being asked to do it in any other way. Therefore, the negotiating position could not be more clear, it is to deal with the outstanding issues together. It is not that they are related because they are not. I do not like relating policing with arms—

Mr. Quinn

They are interconnected.

The Taoiseach

—but they are interconnected. We are asking these people to negotiate all of these issues together in order that the will of the people, as on 22 May 1998 and as per the Good Friday Agreement which has world-wide support, is implemented. That is what we will be seeking to do but I emphasis that we cannot do that without people being prepared to come to the negotiating table in a meaningful way, and that is the current dilemma.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That concludes Leaders' Questions.

Mr. Rabbitte

During Committee Stage of the Industrial Designs Bill last night, I had the opportunity to check with the Chairman whether it was the case that the Minister of State, Deputy Tom Kitt, had sought a time slot for the Protection of Employees (Part-time Workers) Bill, 2000, as advised, perhaps unwittingly, by the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment yesterday morning.

However, there is no sign of the Bill being ros tered for Committee Stage. Will the Taoiseach take steps to ensure Committee Stage is taken? The Minister of State, Deputy Tom Kitt, is on his side in the debate on the EU and I ask the Taoiseach to encourage him to bring the Bill to Committee Stage as soon as possible.

The Taoiseach

The Tánaiste accepts that the information she gave was incorrect. The Minister of State, Deputy Tom Kitt, has asked the parliamentary council to accord priority to the Bill. The Bill was published last December and passed Second Stage in the Dáil on 14 February. Since then the ICTU wrote to the Minister of State with further detailed observations and it was necessary to forward these to the parliamentary council for clarification on the legal issues involved and the points raised. On receipt of this, Committee Stage will be taken as a matter of urgency with a view to enacting the legislation.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We are almost two hours on the Order of Business. I intend to move the Order of Business proper at 12.15 p.m. If Members are brief with their questions I will try and get through them all.

Mr. Rabbitte

The changes made to the Order of Business earlier this year are worthwhile and I fully support them.

Mr. Higgins

(Mayo): On promised legislation and based on the figures and the scenario outlined by the Minister for Public Enterprise, it appears there is a real danger that Aer Lingus could go into liquidation.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

A question on the Order of Business, please.

Mr. Higgins

(Mayo): What is the position on legislation for the company? Is it to be the Eircom option of an IPO, the car boot sale suggested by the Minister, a strategic partnership or is it to remain in State ownership until such time as it becomes viable again?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Higgins, you are denying your colleagues the opportunity to ask appropriate questions on the Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

The Bill is awaiting Second Stage in the Dáil.

Mr. Stagg

Arising from the length of time the Order of Business has taken, I calculate that there will not be enough time to debate some of the items ordered. Given that there will not be any time for the Agriculture Appeals Bill and only approximately ten minutes for the Vocational Education (Amendment) Bill, what arrangements will be made to address this? Will there be a new order?

The Taoiseach

There will not be a new order.

Mr. Timmins

In the budget the Minister for Finance outlined the details of a rent a room scheme whereby an individual or family could earn up to £6,000 in rental income without it being taken into consideration for social welfare benefits. I have been trying to ascertain if that income is reckonable for medical card qualifications but I have been unable to get a reply.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That does not arise on the Order of Business.

Mr. Timmins

I have been unable to get a response from the Minister for Health and Children. Will the Taoiseach clarify the position?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I call Deputy Durkan.

Mr. Durkan

After spending a couple of days in the sin bin I seek your assistance, Sir, on how I can bring back into order the series of questions which were the cause of my expulsion from the House, given that ample precedents have been set and which were applicable up to approximately two weeks ago.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Durkan, you know you cannot submit questions that anticipate a debate in a given week. That is why your questions were ruled out of order but there is no reason you cannot submit them for next week, assuming that no relevant debates are planned.

Mr. Durkan

There are at least two precedents where questions on topics were submitted in the same week there was debate on those topics in the House.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That does not arise on the Order of Business.

Ms O'Sullivan

Under the Statute of Limitations (Amendment) Act, the extended time period during which certain victims of child abuse could initiate civil legal action expires today. The Residential Institutions (Redress) Bill, though published, has not been debated in either House. Those taking action under this legislation when passed will not be able to take civil legal action and in view of this will the Taoiseach give an undertaking that the Government will provide an extended period of time during which it will not plead the Statute of Limitations in defence in these matters?

Dáil Éireann debate - Thursday, 21 Jun 2001

Order of Business.

A Deputy

Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 21 Jun 2001