John Deasy
Question:50 Mr. Deasy asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the cost to his Department in 2001 and 2002 for the deportation of asylum seekers; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [23754/02]
Other Questions. - Deportation Orders.
Eamon Gilmore
Question:88 Mr. Gilmore asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the number of occasions over the past two years on which chartered aircraft have been hired to deport persons from this country; the destination in relation to each case; the number of persons deported; the number of gardaí involved; the cost in each case; his views on whether this is the best use of Garda resources; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [23702/02]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 50 and 88 together.
The deportation costs which I am supplying refer to the deportation of either illegal immigrants, persons refused refugee status in the State or persons whose applications for asylum have been transferred to another country under the Dublin Convention. The vast majority of the removals involved persons who were refused refugee status in the State.
The number of persons deported in 2001, at a total cost of £921,114.28, €1,169,573.88, was 365. In 2002, up to and including 18 November 2002, the number deported was 484, at a total cost of €1,696,438.92, £1,336,054.22.
The cost of the deportations in 2002 includes the cost of the chartered flight to Algeria in January and two chartered flights to Nigeria in March and November. There were no other chartered flights in either 2001 or 2002. Information in relation to the overall cost of all deportations in 2001 and 2002, in so far as the human resources cost to the Garda Síochána is concerned, is not readily available.
The first aircraft was chartered to facilitate the deportation of two Algerian persons to Algeria on 9 January 2002. There were five escorting members of the Garda Síochána. The total cost to the State of chartering the aircraft was €23,495, £18,500, while the Garda escort costs associated with the deportations were €714, £562.
The second aircraft was chartered to facilitate the deportation of six Nigerian persons to Nigeria on 28 March 2002. There were 20 escorting members of the Garda Síochána. The cost to the State of chartering the aircraft was €190,000, while the Garda escort costs associated with the deportations were €7,671.
The third aircraft was chartered with the intention of deporting 20 Nigerian nationals but this number was not possible due to court proceedings in relation to some of the intended deportees. Twelve persons were deported to Nigeria on 14 November 2002. There were 35 escorting members of the Garda Síochána. The cost to the State of chartering the aircraft was €151,500, while the Garda escort costs were €14,361.
It should be borne in mind that in evaluating the cost of a charter flight for the purpose of deporting persons to their country of origin, the cost of the continued presence of persons who are the subject of deportation orders in the State has to be taken into account. These costs include social welfare, direct provision and detention costs in certain cases. The use of chartered flights is the only viable option in certain cases where there is no alternative available, either because of the disruptive behaviour of the persons being deported or other genuine concerns of the airlines who have to look after passenger safety.
In some instances, the possibilities of using scheduled flights on commercial airlines for deportations has become difficult given the disruptive behaviour of some deportees. This has caused distress to other passengers on board and considerable inconvenience to the airline. If it is not possible to enforce deportation orders as a result of disruptive behaviour of deportees, there will be two main outcomes. First, it will send a clear signal that deportation can be avoided by simply being disruptive and, second, disruptive behaviour by deportees on scheduled flights will become the norm, leading to concerns for the safety of passengers and staff on aircraft and causing further difficulties for the Garda in the already problematic task of enforcing deportation orders.
I have just been doing the figures. Approximately €3,000 apiece is a hefty one-way ticket – even disregarding Garda overtime. Excepting the safety issue – it is a lot of cash. How many more flights does the Minister envisage this year?
We must return to the root cause of why people are coming to Ireland. It has been discussed in the context of the naturalisation issue. Does the Minister have plans to look at the issue and the reason people are coming here to have children? Is he planning to change it and debate it in the Oireachtas?
The Deputy will appreciate that a judgment of the Supreme Court on the issue – on appeal from the High Court – is pending and I do not want to say anything that would be seen to be an attempt to move the Supreme Court in one direction or another. In relation to the naturalisation issue, it is the intention of the Government – as set out in the programme for Government – to take some action, depending on what is needed, once we have the Supreme Court's definitive judgment on the issue. The Government will also consult the Opposition parties as to the appropriate response – whether constitutional or sub-constitutional. Until I am in a position to advise the Deputies opposite on the implications of the forthcoming judgment, I cannot help on the matter.
These deportations are expensive and it occurred to me that – putting some of the themes of today's Question Time together – we may be in a position to use non-Garda security staff to enforce order on aeroplanes rather than using gardaí. I do not know how many more of these flights are contemplated but there are no circumstances under which I will be browbeaten into abandoning these flights. If people get the message from the Government that one will not be deported if one kicks up a fuss, the system will implode. Any credibility our system has depends on the willingness of the State to enforce the laws of the land.
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle:
I must remind the House that supplementary questions and answers on these questions are limited to one minute.
I hope the Minister will consult this side of the House in relation to his penchant for charter flights to various corners of the globe.
I did not say that.
We might be able to do it much cheaper. We would be able to employ new gardaí for the cost for each individual – I understand it is between €10,000 and €15,000 for each deportee. The Minister may as well send them on a pleasure cruise. This is not a cost effective way of dealing with the matter and it should be revisited because the ratio of three gardaí to each asylum seeker deported leaves much to be desired. Does the Minister think this is the best use of Garda resources in dealing with the matter?
Of course it is not the best use of Garda resources. The Garda Síochána is here to maintain the law in this country and unfortunately part of that law is immigration law. If the Garda national immigration bureau is to conduct its business effectively, it must make it clear that when all due process, judicial appeals, reviews and ad misercordiam pleas have been entertained and dealt with by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, this State is willing to enforce its law. I assure the Deputy that the result would be a massive unwillingness to co-operate with our law. I want to see people who are subject to deportation orders voluntarily quitting the State. The Deputy refers to the cost of €3,000 per person but if one thinks in terms of scheduled flights from Ireland to Nigeria, that is not a vastly inflated cost.
Might the Government jet be used?
Where stands the agreement reached with our partners on the Dublin Convention regarding asylum seekers?
As I testified before the Joint Committee on European Affairs, the Dublin Convention is of limited practical effect. We have had less than 100 transactions inward and outward under the convention in any given year. In some years we have actually received more people under the convention than we have removed to other states. That is remarkable for a state which is located geographically where it is because virtually every person entering the State is passing through a Dublin Convention country to get here. There are evidential problems and I propose to bring to Cabinet new laws which will make it less possible to evade the consequences of the Dublin Convention.
Could the Government jet be used to reduce the costs of these deportations and perhaps combine flights.
Deputy Costello already said that.
I am grateful to the Deputy for his witticisms.
Borrowed witticisms.
I am serious about this – I will enforce it and I will not be brow-beaten into abandoning enforcement of the law because Deputies opposite would be the first to say the law was developing into a shambles.
Nobody is suggesting that.
I appreciate that Deputy Deasy and his colleagues have some modicum of common sense on this issue but, unfortunately, the other pieces of the shattered mosaic that is our Opposition are not so sensible.
We agree with the Minister. They should be put on the next flight out.