Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 14 May 2003

Vol. 566 No. 4

Leaders' Questions.

Mr. Kenny

This day last year the Taoiseach participated in a television debate prior to the general election. In the course of that debate he said that street violence is a very small aspect of crime. He said that if returned to Government, Fianna Fáil would eliminate waiting lists within two years and recruit a further 2000 gardaí. Let us look at what has happened one year on. The education building programme has been cut by €88 million. The national drugs funding strategy has been cut by €7 million. Government funding for FÁS and community employment schemes has been cut by €86 million. The first-time buyers' grant has been abolished and overseas aid has been cut by approximately €40 million.

How can the Taoiseach come into this House one year on, a year after he sent a letter, with the imprimatur of the Minister for Finance, to the leaders of the parties saying that no cuts were planned in public expenditure in secret or by any other means when we now have cutback after cutback, waiting lists increasing and the decimation of public services, which is far from what we were told? At the current rate of Garda recruitment, it would be 40 years before 2,000 extra gardaí are on the streets. Public crime has increased from 45 incidents per day in 1996 to 117 per day now. Hospital waiting lists have increased by 4,300 between June and September last year and the Government and the Minister for Health and Children have not published any figures since then. I could give other examples, as can others. Will the Taoiseach not now admit, one year on in his second term of office, that the letter sent out and what he said in a television debate this day last year was the biggest political lie ever perpetrated on the Irish people in the last decade?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy must withdraw the word "lie".

(Interruptions).

Mr. Kenny

I am referring, Sir, to the letter sent by the Minister for Finance which stated that no cutbacks were planned in secret or in private.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will have to withdraw the word "lie".

Mr. Hayes

What would you call it?

(Interruptions).

Mr. Kenny

I am referring to the letter that was sent out by the Minister for Finance and what the Taoiseach said last year in a television debate.

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, Deputy, withdraw the word "lie".

Mr. Kenny

The Taoiseach said last year that he would recruit 2,000 extra gardaí—

An Ceann Comhairle

The word "lie" is unparliamentary, Deputy, and we do not allow it.

Mr. Kenny

—he would eliminate waiting lists within two years and so on.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have asked the Deputy to withdraw the word "lie".

Mr. Hayes

The highest inflation rate in Europe.

Mr. Kenny

If it is helpful I will say it was the greatest ever deceit perpetrated upon the Irish public.

Mr. Durkan

Would that be a good word?

An Ceann Comhairle

I would prefer the Deputy to withdraw it—

Mr. Kenny

I withdraw the word "lie", a Cheann Comhairle, and replace it with the greatest deception ever perpetrated on the Irish public.

The Taoiseach

I will deal with some of the matters raised by Deputy Kenny and thank him for the opportunity a year on to remind people of what we said. In 2002 the economies of the world drifted back substantially.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow the Taoiseach to continue without interruption, please.

The Taoiseach

That is unlikely because they always interrupt a Cheann Comhairle. However, as our economy dropped back from 12% to 2%, I said that if re-elected we would continue to have a stable economy here and we would continue to put money into welfare, as we have done. We increased the social welfare budget by 6% and put €550 million into the social exclusion fund. We said we would continue to maintain the economic growth of this country. Other than China in the first quarter—

Mr. G. Mitchell

What about the health service?

The Taoiseach

—this country has continued to have the highest growth rate. We have continued to invest money across the board. There has been a 7% increase in funding of the public services. Spending on education has been increased this year by 12%—

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

The only one the Taoiseach is deceiving is himself.

Mr. Howlin

That is last year's speech.

An Ceann Comhairle

Only Deputy Kenny is entitled to ask a supplementary question.

The Taoiseach

We have put €1 billion extra into the health service and last year an extra 180,000 patients were treated in the Dublin hospitals alone. The in-patient waiting list is down to 18,000. We have continued to implement the national development plan and Ireland has the highest number, pro rata, of houses being built anywhere—

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow the Taoiseach to reply.

The Taoiseach

We have continued to maintain, sustain and expand a range of services. Even in a difficult international economic climate, this Government, united in its purpose, has negotiated a sustained programme and continued to keep unemployment low.

(Interruptions.)

The Taoiseach

It is good for people that this Government was elected because it would have been a disaster if anybody else had been in Government.

Mr. Kenny

I have listened to this type of reply for a number of months. Just a year ago the Taoiseach told the public, in a formal television debate to put himself forward for re-election, that he would eliminate waiting lists within two years, recruit 2,000 extra gardaí and deal with the other issues referred to in the programme for Government. The Taoiseach did not mention the 10,000 people waiting for elective day surgery. There are 1,900 people waiting in Beaumont, 1,900 waiting in Letterkenny and 800 in Limerick.

The Taoiseach has failed the test of commitment to politics and to live up to the promises he made so solemnly last year. He has let down the integrity of politics and ruined, for many young people, the aspiration of ever owning a house. A clinical nurse said last week in Tallaght Hospital: "In the 1980s, Charlie Haughey closed beds and bought shirts; this is 2003 and Bertie Ahern is closing beds and buying jets". These are the words of a senior clinical nurse and they epitomise what the population thinks about this Government. The end is not yet here but it is nigh.

The Taoiseach

In reply to Deputy Kenny and the people he quotes, including the nurses, in the last year we have continued to increase the number of nurses. There are more nurses than ever in the training schools. In the Dublin hospitals alone, there are 6,800 more nurses than there were a few years ago. Over €1 billion has been put into the health service to continue the major capital programme there.

Mr. R. Bruton

What did the Taoiseach get for it?

Mr. Kenny

The Taoiseach is a failure.

The Taoiseach

In the Dublin hospitals alone, 180,000 extra people are being treated. That is a substantial amount of cover.

Mr. Kenny

The Taoiseach failed the test.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy mentioned housing. Almost 60,000 houses have been built, of which 12,000 were affordable housing.

Mr. Stagg

A house costs €400,000.

The Taoiseach

There are far more in the voluntary housing sector.

Ms O. Mitchell

That is a fantasy.

The Taoiseach

These are record figures compared to anything we had previously.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair has stated on many occasions that the Chair cannot allow a situation to develop where any Member on either side of the House is called by the Chair and wishes to make a contribution is prevented from doing so. Every Member of the House is entitled to make a contribution. The Taoiseach is entitled to do it now because he has been called by the Chair. The Chair cannot allow a situation to continue where he or any Member of the House, is frustrated from making a contribution.

Mr. Stagg

The Taoiseach is provoking Members on this side of the House.

Mr. N. Dempsey

Less of the jackboot tactics, Emmet.

The Taoiseach

It is worth noting, and Deputy Kenny acknowledges this, that in terms of economic growth this country, despite international difficulties, is still second only to China, and I am not sure what is happening there in the second quarter because that country has difficulties now. We have maintained people in employment and have a low unemployment rate.

(Interruptions.)

The Taoiseach

We are doing extraordinarily well.

Mr. Stagg

That is a long minute, a Cheann Comhairle. Do you have a clock?

The Taoiseach

In spite of the various views of the Opposition, this country will continue to do well. We will continue to have good economic growth, create jobs, stop emigration and put money into services. If there are any good suggestions from the Opposition, we will take them on board but I have not heard one in the last 12 months.

Mr. Rabbitte

The Taoiseach does not appreciate that he is almost permanently in "comical Ali" mode. There is no sense or reason to what he said. Deputy Kenny raised a number of issues from a single television debate in which the Taoiseach participated. It was the only television debate in which he participated during the election campaign and, for some extraordinary reason, the only one in his six years as Taoiseach. The doorstep interview, the 35 second soundbite, with which the media are so cravenly satisfied is the Taoiseach's standard.

Deputy Kenny raised the deception in the promises advanced by the Taoiseach in that interview. I wish to ask the Taoiseach about a deception that was not promised. I do not recall the Taoiseach, Deputy Noel Dempsey or Fianna Fáil campaigning to reintroduce third level fees. Will the Taoiseach, for the sake of parents whose children will sit examinations in two weeks, lift this uncertainty once and for all? What is the position? The Government is divided. On 16 April, the Tánaiste confirmed in the House that her party opposes the reintroduction of third level fees. She has tatty posters in the third level institutions asserting as much. I read this morning that most of the lads on the backbenches are engaged in what Fianna Fáil is doing these days, bringing both sides of the road with them. Half of them are for it and half of them are against it.

What is the position on third level fees? Young people are about to take their leaving certificate examinations and their parents do not know whether they will have to come up with serious money, after paying tax, to give their children an opportunity to enjoy third level education in an era when our society and economy demand that people have such education. Will the Taoiseach state, at least in respect of the next academic year, the Government's position? As somebody said at our annual conference last weekend: "If there was a kite flying championship in the Olympics, Deputy Noel Dempsey would be the undisputed champion".

Mr. N. Dempsey

Deputy Rabbitte would come second. I am sorry to knock him off his pedestal.

The Taoiseach

I am glad everybody remembers the debate of a year ago so well.

Mr. Rabbitte

It was the only one.

Mr. Kenny

Who could forget it?

The Taoiseach

Deputy Kenny would not want to remember much else about that period. I probably have not taken part in as many debates as Deputy Rabbitte. He spends most of his time sitting in a studio. I have more to do.

Mr. Stagg

Opening pubs.

(Interruptions.)

The Taoiseach

I have done a huge number of interviews in the past year. It is good to move about and see what is happening but now Deputy Rabbitte has decided in his new strategy to neglect ordinary working class people and go for the upper and middle classes. The question asked by the Deputy is consistent with that. The Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Dempsey, has said there is a problem with access to third level for working people and people in the low socio-economic groups. Deputy Rabbitte is saying we should not look at this area.

The Minister has stated that the issue of access has been around for a long time. Nobody is talking about taking away the rights of people on small or moderate incomes or even what would be considered high incomes. However, as the Minister said, there are inconsistencies in a situation where people who have enormous incomes and salaries, earned through shares and other means, do not—

Mr. M. Higgins

Tax them.

Mr. Stagg

Get the money by taxing them.

The Taoiseach

Would Deputies please listen? They should not get benefits from education grants. The review being carried out is examining if the Minister can do something to increase the already high level of participation in third level education and to see if he can give opportunities to those communities where participation in third level is only 5% or less.

Ms Lynch

Yes or no?

The Taoiseach

He has highlighted in his review and in numerous public statements that there are some sections of Irish life where more than 90% of people have access to third level education.

Ms Enright

He has not highlighted it in any review.

Ms Lynch

Yes or no?

The Taoiseach

There are other areas, many represented by me and Deputy Rabbitte – I remind him he also represents some of them – where fewer than 5% of people have access so surely this House should be urging Deputy Noel Dempsey—

Mr. G. Mitchell

That is what we are doing.

The Taoiseach

—to try and finish a review to try to improve the lot of the disadvantaged in Irish society. That is what the Minister is doing and he will be finished in a few weeks.

Mr. M. Higgins

Put the capital into education then.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Rabbitte. Allow him to speak without interruption.

Mr. Rabbitte

Can I ask the Taoiseach what is the answer to the question?

Mr. Stagg

Some hope.

Mr. Rabbitte

Does his Government intend to reintroduce fees for third level education? That is the question. Any of us can give a half-baked sociological treatise. If he wants to put money into primary and pre-school education let him do that. If he wants to raise money from the high rollers whose tax exile he has facilitated he can do that.

Ms McManus

Hear, hear.

Mr. Rabbitte

Let us stick to the question. What parents want to know is whether Deputy Noel Dempsey, with the approval of this Cabinet, is going to reintroduce third level fees. That is the issue. It is a simple question. I would like to say to the Taoiseach that I have never been in a radio or television studio where there is not a second chair and I look forward to the day he agrees to occupy one of them.

Cecilia Keaveney

We would all like to see him.

The Taoiseach

The answer to the question is that there is a review taking place within the Department of Education and Science to see if we can improve the access for people who are on very small incomes, or welfare, who have no access to education, and to see if there are people at the top cycle who could help in that review and contribute to improving the access and other matters as well. It is not looking at people on moderate or good incomes.

Mr. Stagg

They might do it on a voluntary basis.

The Taoiseach

Nobody is talking about bringing in fees for people on moderate or even on what most people would regard as high incomes. It does not make much sense. There are people who have incomes in excess of several hundred thousand euro who get free education and there are others who live on welfare who cannot get access to education.

Mr. G. Mitchell

It is the same with the medical cards.

The Taoiseach

That review will be finished in the next few weeks.

Mr. Ring

They get medical cards.

Mr. Sargent

The Taoiseach earlier talked about a difficult international climate. I want to return to the issue of climate change because the Taoiseach needs to clarify to the Dáil something he said in his last exchange with me on that matter in late April when he said that the Moneypoint plant would be changing to gas generation. Subsequently he wrote to me and included a copy of the Adjournment debate contribution by the Minister for the Environment and Local Government. It seems that the ESB and the Minister are not of that view and would be more inclined to say that there would be no change to gas in Moneypoint. That said, would the Taoiseach agree that at that point he may have inadvertently misled the House?

How is his Government going to respond to the serious findings of the European Environment Agency that Irish emissions in 2001 stood 31% higher than in 1990, well over double the increase legally allowed between 1990 and 2008? Given that Ireland is at the rock bottom of the league, the dirty man of Europe, is it possible for the Government to face reality and recognise its climate change strategy is not working? Will it scrap that strategy and recognise that, in the interest of Irish competitiveness, as IBEC has said, the fine of €1.3 billion on Irish taxpayers and Irish industry, according to the Department of the Environment and Local Government's annual figures, is going to severely dent competitiveness and will open this Government to further ridicule and discredit if it is not prepared to tackle this issue urgently?

The Taoiseach keeps saying he is going to engage in emissions trading, as does the Minister for the Environment and Local Government, Deputy Cullen, who is trying to speak at the same time as me on this question. Are there any other serious plans, apart from emissions trading, which will work because the current plans in regard to the built environment are failing. The Government is putting five times more money into roads than into public transport and is underscoring seriously in delivering on wind energy compared to other EU countries. We can have some impact on all of these issues if the Taoiseach is serious about it. Apart from emissions trading, what is the Government's plan to tackle this serious international issue?

The Taoiseach

As Deputy Sargent correctly states, we had this debate on a previous occasion and I said I would give the additional information which I have now passed on to him. That showed that while the ESB is looking at all other options as to what precisely it is going to do, it is involved in a €200 million programme to take the nitrous oxide and sulphur dioxide out of the Moneypoint plant and to see where it will progress in that area. At the same time it has to be conscious of maintaining security of supply.

Deputy Sargent is correct that our Kyoto emissions growth limitation target of 13% over 1990 levels by the end of this decade reflects our need for development against the 1990 base line, and the need to look at environmental emissions in addressing climate change. It was always expected that our greenhouse gas emissions would increase in the medium term. Preliminary indications are that emissions growth is peaking. Deputy Sargent is aware of those figures and we have published a figure of 31% growth for 2001 which was the last figure. That means we have the furthest to go among EU member states to meet our target. Ten of the 15 states within the EU burden sharing scheme are now off target. Most significantly our emissions growth rate has been considerably slower than our economic growth rate and our performance in decoupling emissions and economic growth is the best in Europe apart from Luxembourg, which has a better record than us.

Mr. Sargent

Total rubbish.

Mr. Coveney

That does not relieve us of our obligations.

The Taoiseach

Emissions per unit of GDP are now 62% of what they were in 1990 compared to 78% for the EU as a whole, and I cite the European figures. Our national climate change strategy set a ten-year policy framework to achieve our target and the Minister for the Environment and Local Government is now reviewing it to intensify its implementation, which he has announced recently in this House. Our progress report on the first year implementation which was published at the end of last year showed measures under way capable of achieving 20% of our target, which is substantial.

Mr. Eamon Ryan

Nonsense.

The Taoiseach

We will be moving forward in a determined way over the rest of these decades with a range of actions at cross-sectoral levels.

Mr. Eamon Ryan

Nonsense.

Mr. Sargent

There are no measures.

The Taoiseach

The strategy also provides for carbon energy taxation which we have agreed to introduce.

Mr. Gormley

When? That is the first ever budget to refer to energy taxation.

Mr. Sargent

Talk is cheap.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Sargent may ask a supplementary question.

The Taoiseach

It has already been referred to in the budget and the Minister made a clear statement about it in the budget. New EU legislation is nearing completion as regards carbon dioxide emissions trading.

Mr. Sargent

It is amazing to listen to the fiction from the Taoiseach.

Mr. Cullen

The fiction is all on the other side of the House.

Mr. Sargent

It is not.

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow Deputy Sargent speak without interruption.

Mr. Sargent

Does the Taoiseach agree that a couple of the things he has said are not tenable? We have not decoupled economic growth from growth in greenhouse gas emissions. The European Environment Agency has stated that in black and white. I would like the Taoiseach to agree that the European Environment Agency knows what it is talking about. Would he agree also that we have not peaked by all the indications? We are continuing to grow our greenhouse gas emissions, in accelerating terms.

I would ask for a scrapping of the climate change strategy. What is the Taoiseach going to do to address the clear failure of the strategy to date? Is he, for example, going to amend the national development plan in any sense, based on the predictions for climate change and the stated fallout from that climate change in terms of various difficulties including water scarcity, difficulties with farming, storm damage or floods, or is he simply going to buy waders to replace the wellingtons that served him so well when he was standing in the floods in Drumcondra? Will he give waders to everyone in the country if he is going to be so blasé about the whole issue.

The Taoiseach

I was certainly not being blasé, and I apologise to Deputy Sargent if he thought that. I was merely quoting the position as outlined by Commissioner Wallstrom. I gave the figures for Ireland, stating that we were over the baseline, and outlined the difficulties. I reported factually that our emissions growth has been at a considerably lower rate than our economic growth.

Mr. Eamon Ryan

We are the worst performer.

An Ceann Comhairle

Mr. Ryan is not the leader of the Green Party. He will have to find another way to ask his question. Only Deputy Sargent, who is the leader of the party, is permitted to ask questions.

The Taoiseach

Our performance in decoupling emissions and economic growth has been the best in the European Union apart from that of Luxembourg. Emissions per unit of GDP are at 62% of the 1990 level compared with 78% for the EU as a whole. I did not claim that the problem was resolved but gave the factual position. Deputy Sargent asked what we are doing. The Minister and his officials have been engaged, not only with the Environmental Protection Agency but with all sectors, obviously including the ESB and the energy sector, as well as the IBEC and the farmers, in work on the issue. We are aware of our responsibilities and our position after the first year, and we will continue to deal with that. No one is failing to acknowledge the issue. I gave Deputy Sargent information on nitrous and sulphur oxide and said that the €200 million investment in Moneypoint is significant. That is continuing and represents major progress in dealing with the issue.