Order of Business.

The Tánaiste

It is proposed to take No. 8a, Finance Bill 2006 — allocation of time motion for Select Committee; No. 8b, Finance Bill 2006 — Financial Resolutions; No. 1a, Teaching Council (Amendment) Bill 2006 — Order for Second Stage and Second and Subsequent Stages; No. 14, Air Navigation (Eurocontrol) Bill 2005 [Seanad] — Second Stage (Resumed); and No. 1, Building Control Bill 2005 — Second Stage (Resumed).

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that: (1) Nos. 8a and 8b shall be decided without debate, and in the case of No. 8b, Financial Resolutions, Nos. 1 to 42, shall be moved together and decided by one question which shall be put from the Chair; (2) the proceedings on No. 1a shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after one hour 35 minutes and the following arrangements shall apply: (i) the proceedings on Second Stage shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 65 minutes; the speeches shall be confined to a Minister or Minister of State and to the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party, the Labour Party and the Technical Group, who shall be called upon in that order and who may share their time, and shall not exceed 15 minutes in each case; and a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a speech in reply which shall not exceed five minutes; (ii) the proceedings on Committee and Remaining Stages shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 30 minutes by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, with regard to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Education and Science.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There are two proposals to put to the House. Are the proposals for dealing with Nos. 8a and 8b without debate agreed?

Ms Burton

I object to the fact that the Government proposes to rush through a fairly complex Finance Bill in less than 15 hours debate over three days on Committee Stage. This time includes our one opportunity, according to the Minister, to discuss a 1,000 page report on tax breaks. It is also a Bill that proposes to extend tax breaks significantly, not just to hospitals but to psychiatric institutions and mental care centres. The Dáil cannot do its job unless we are given a full opportunity to tease out the costs and benefits of the Minister's proposal for the health service. I am glad the Tánaiste is present as she has issued a directive to the Health Service Executive that, for example, in the case of a number of hospitals like Connolly Hospital in Blanchardstown, land is to be given for private hospital development. If such a development costs €100 million, tax breaks of €42 million will be received courtesy of the taxpayer. This will all be done without any debate on the cost or benefit to the State.

As the time given for debate is inadequate, will the Government rethink its position on it? It is outrageous that we are supposed to hold the Minister for Finance to account but we have almost no time to do so or debate important issues because of the way the Committee Stage is structured.

Mr. Bruton

I join Deputy Burton in saying that although the procedures used are time-worn — the procedures in these Houses have probably been the same since Adam was a boy — they are inadequate for dealing with tax issues. Tax reliefs are effectively the same as public spending. We devote much time in committees and the Houses to debating Estimates and how we spend money. The same amount of money is being devoted in tax reliefs of one type or another. Recent reports showed that spending in tax reliefs dwarfed that of five Departments, yet there is a cursory examination of them.

I congratulate the Minister for Finance for having the review, but having carried it out he has failed to reform the way in which the Dáil scrutinises the decisions underpinning the issue. He is pushing ahead with new tax reliefs without taking the lessons that were clearly set out in the review, that proper evaluation of new or extended reliefs must be made before taxpayers' money is committed. While the Tánaiste may indicate that these are the practices which have been used for many years, this does not mean they are adequate. We now have the benefit of three volumes of analysis of tax reliefs. We are not using this new information to put in place proper systems and scrutiny.

Mr. Boyle

I support the call for more time to be made available on Committee Stage for consideration of the Finance Bill, especially in light of the three volume review on tax reliefs this year. The time is needed, along with Report Stage in the House, to examine a variety of issues, including the evasion of responsibility by the Government of large areas of public expenditure. One of these was reported during the week when Department of Finance correspondents questioned whether the Health Service Executive should be the body responsible for spending the huge health budget.

On those grounds a set of circumstances have come about which have not existed in previous years. These demand, particularly in light of budget announcements by the Minister for Finance, that the budgetary process be reviewed. This Finance Bill should be subject to the greatest amount of consideration possible and more than we have given it in previous years.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I also make a request for additional time for the Committee Stage debate. The reports regarding tax reliefs which have recently been presented and the decision of the Minister on the back of same in his introduction of the Finance Bill before the House indicate a requirement for a searching analysis in terms of the reliefs he intends to drop, those he is perpetuating and others which are being extended. There is much to be addressed on some of those in the latter category, even without any cost benefit analysis or indication of the cost to the Exchequer. There is a unique element in this year's deliberations on the Finance Bill and, accordingly, additional time is required for Members to play their function properly of scrutinising and making the Minister accountable. I urge that additional time be provided, with an option to structure the time on Committee Stage.

The Tánaiste

The time being proposed by the Government includes from 12 noon to 8 p.m. on Tuesday, 21 February, with two short breaks; 11 a.m. to 8 p.m. on Wednesday, 22 February, with two short breaks; and 11 a.m. to 1.30 p.m. on Thursday, 23 February. That is a considerable amount of time and we are not in a position to give any more.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with No. 1a agreed to?

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Without seeking to delay the progress of the Order of Business, I object in principle to the guillotine applying to the Teaching Council (Amendment) Bill 2006. Whatever time is required will be met by the respective parties and individual Deputies who wish to participate. The 30-minute period to which Report and Final Stages are restricted is inadequate. We should leave the debate open and allow for full participation as Deputies wish to avail of it.

The Tánaiste

This is a small technical Bill which would give the Minister the power to make regulations governing the first election of members of the council.

Mr. Kenny

In response to a question from Deputy Rabbitte yesterday, the Taoiseach stated his intention to bring forward new proposals regarding the rights of MPs elected for Northern Ireland to speak in the Oireachtas. On the previous occasion when the Taoiseach brought forward a proposal in this regard, a serious disagreement occurred between Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats within Government, proving that those parties do not agree on all matters. On the next occasion the Taoiseach puts forward such a proposal, will it be a Government proposal as distinct from an individual party proposal? When will this be?

The Government yesterday discussed a range of options on caring for the elderly. It was reported today that this was with a view to bringing the matter to social partnership talks. Deputy Bruton, among others, has made the point on many occasions that the only people not consulted about social partnership are the Members in this House, all parties and none. Given that everybody here would have their own views regarding options on care for the elderly and the changing demographics of the country, would the Tánaiste think it appropriate for the Government to bring forward its views here or produce a Green Paper for discussion? Everybody, from all parties and none, could then give their views. This could then be brought to social partnership talks rather than having a scenario where the Government discusses the matter but makes no decision and we then hear about various aspects of the matter on the news without anybody in the House being consulted. Everybody here clearly has their own views on the matter.

The Tánaiste

With regard to representatives from Northern Ireland having access to committees in Leinster House, the Taoiseach has sought to get consensus among all parties. He has been acting in this capacity as leader of the largest party. It has not yet been possible to reach agreement on the matter.

Over the past 12 months, as the Deputy is aware, there has been a report by Mercer on the issue of care for the elderly, especially relating to long-term funding of continuing care. There has also been the O'Shea report on nursing home subventions. These were published some time ago. There have also been ESRI reports and, over recent months, an interdepartmental committee has examined the issues and produced proposals for the Government. We will make decisions in this area. It is not a matter for others to do so. There was a commitment in Sustaining Progress to examine the issues and the greater the buy-in from the wider society the better.

I would welcome a debate in this House. There is no question of not wanting one. The discussion the Government had yesterday was of a preliminary nature. As the Deputy has acknowledged, those in the population who are over 65 now represent an age-dependency percentage of 18%, and this will double over the next 20 years so there are major issues with which we must deal. We would welcome the views of everybody in the House on the matter. Perhaps we can find a forum in due course, such as the Joint Committee on Health and Children, where we could debate some of these issues.

Mr. Rabbitte

The latest issue of The Irish Times reports that an attitude survey prepared by the ESRI was presented to Cabinet. Will the Tánaiste cause that document to be laid before the House or put into the library? I do not recall an ESRI document being prepared for Government and not presented to the House or published independently. Will the Tánaiste clarify that?

I will ask the Tánaiste about the trolley watch figures in what used to be her and my local hospital in Tallaght. On 3 January there were 18 patients but on Tuesday there were 75, some accommodated in makeshift care outside the hospital proper. Can the Tánaiste say whether any alleviation is in sight for the people oppressed in such conditions, and for the hard-working staff unable to cope with the situation?

Did the Tánaiste hear the interview with the Government Chief Whip this morning, where he said the Government was unable to appoint a Minister of State last week because of the Tánaiste's absence?

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

It was the Tánaiste's fault.

Mr. Rabbitte

As this is a Government decision, he seemed to signal that the Tánaiste and the Progressive Democrats were the cause of the cruel deception of Deputy Haughey. Many people are upset about it. I call on the Tánaiste to take the opportunity to say whether the Government Chief Whip is correct in allowing it to be inferred that the Tánaiste and Progressive Democrats were responsible.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

Again.

The Tánaiste

On the article in The Irish Times this morning, the Government did not have any such report at Cabinet yesterday nor did it discuss public opinion polls on housing. I do not know where the report came from but it certainly was not on the agenda yesterday, nor did any such document form part of any discussion. I know the piece was written by a reputable journalist but it did not reflect reality.

Mr. Kenny

It was a Fianna Fáil leak, then.

Mr. Rabbitte

I cannot believe The Irish Times would be inaccurate.

The Tánaiste

On Tallaght Hospital, the head of the National Hospitals Office, Mr. John O'Brien, has been in discussions with Tallaght Hospital on issues there as a result of both the process mapping that was done of the hospital and its procedures and policies. The hospital had very high levels of elective admissions this week, as it happens. Over a two-hour period it seems the numbers on the trolleys could be reduced by 45 people. I do not know why that could not have happened earlier and there is no excuse for it. I spoke to Mr. John O'Brien yesterday and he is holding a number of meetings with the management of the hospital on that issue.

I heard the Chief Whip's comments this morning. I was available by telephone although I was not at the Cabinet meeting, being in Canada. The Chief Whip informs me it was a matter of courtesy in a partnership Government. A decision like that was not going to be made in my absence.

Mr. Stagg

He did not say that on the wireless.

Mr. Kenny

That does not happen in New Zealand.

Mr. Sargent

As the Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children is present, can she let me know, given that my request under Standing Order 31 was not accepted, the date she proposes to publish and implement the cancer strategy in light of the urgency of the matter?

On the newly published Planning and Development (Strategic Infrastructure) Bill, will the Tánaiste make available the advice of the Attorney General given that hidden away in section 31, referring to environmental impact assessment regulations, it states that "any regulation made thereunder in relation to environmental impact assessment shall not apply to anything done under an order made under this Act". Given that the Government has worn a path to the European Court of Justice for all the various transgressions it has made, does she not think it quite out of order that the environmental impact assessment regulations would not apply to this legislation? This legislation will be on a hiding to nothing if it throws out the EU regulations in that manner. Alternatively, having discovered the issue, will the Government withdraw the Bill?

Mr. Cowen

We will not withdraw the Bill.

The Tánaiste

The report on the cancer strategy has just been submitted to the Department of Health and Children. I am reading the report and I will make decisions on it very soon. I will have to go to the Government on the policy issues.

The critical infrastructure Bill will be published later today and Deputy Sargent should wait to see it before he comments.

Mr. Sargent

It is here.

The Tánaiste

We will certainly not withdraw the Bill.

Mr. Sargent

Does the Tánaiste not think it is out of order?

Mr. Boyle

Can we have the advice of the Attorney General? The Government is making up its own rules.

Mr. J. Higgins

Has the Tánaiste used her office as Minister for Health and Children to arrange counselling for the Fianna Fáil family? There are troubling signs of dysfunction this morning. Certain members of the family are hoping Dick Cheney might invite the Taoiseach on his next duck hunt. I warn the Members opposite of what might happen if things get out of hand.

I will ask about the Abbotstown sports campus development authority Bill. Could the Tánaiste be more precise than the Taoiseach usually is?

I did not get much change from the Taoiseach yesterday when I asked about the 130,000 construction workers being illegally denied pension rights by criminality among construction bosses. Is the Tánaiste concerned about this? Does she intend to bring forward legislation to ensure every construction worker gets their pension entitlement?

The Tánaiste

The Abbotstown sports campus development authority Bill will be published in this session.

The Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment is considering strengthening employment legislation and regulations in the area of pension rights.

What is the Minister talking about? I read what I thought was a hysterical story in a tabloid this morning that traces of cocaine had been found in the toilet beside the Dáil. Was the Minister for Finance in there recently?

Mr. Cowen

Another attempt at humour.

Mr. Stanton

Is the Government running out of legislation? The Dáil was suspended yesterday because the Government seemed to run out of business.

We are expected to prepare our work on this in a few hours. It is a shambles.

Ms O’Sullivan

I concur with Deputy Stanton on a Bill for a register of persons considered unsafe to work with children. We have been raising this matter for years but are continually told it is not possible to give any indication on its publication. It is important legislation in terms of child protection.

He is going rapidly south.

Mr. B. Lenihan

A northside Minister uses public transport.

The Tánaiste

That Bill will be published later this year.

Mr. Cowen

The Deputy played the role of Brutus himself a couple of times but it did not work for him.

Mr. Durkan

Easy now.

Was that the missing €56 million?

The Tánaiste

No money has gone missing.

Ms Burton

It is unaccounted for.

Mr. Crawford

I want to raise the dropped Bill on the advertising of alcohol, an issue I spoke on last December. At the time, the Taoiseach said it was dropped because big business had agreed to co-operate. However, last year, we saw 400 deaths and the numbers killed since the beginning of this year has been equally catastrophic. When will the Bill on the sale of alcohol be brought before the House so we can at least discuss this issue?

We were promised, 18 months ago, that an enforcement of fines Bill would be introduced but a date has not yet been set. Does the Tánaiste accept it is a complete waste of money to pay people to stay in jail when fines could be lifted by instalment?

When will the health Bill be introduced so we can discuss aspects of the health service which I personally experienced some weeks ago? First-hand experience is somewhat different to observing matters from the stars.

We were promised the report on Mr. Walsh and Monaghan General Hospital would be completed within eight weeks and published in January. When will that report be available?

The Tánaiste

On the sale of alcohol, the Deputy is aware the Government entered into voluntary agreements and if the voluntary code works, legislation may not be needed. If it does not work, we will bring forward legislation.

Regarding fines, it is not possible to give an indication at this stage.

Several health Bills are being brought forward this year. We all belong to families who have interfaced with the health services and it would be wrong to assume otherwise.

I understand we will receive the report of the inquiry into the death of Patrick Walsh at the end of March or beginning of April.

Mr. Boyle

I have two questions on the Government's legislative programme. I believe the Government has appointed a former member of the Dáil press gallery to the chair of Comhairle. Should the Government not also put the Comhairle (Amendment) Bill 2004 before the House, given that we need to process it in advance of such an appointment?

With regard to the Planning and Development (Strategic Infrastructure) Bill 2006, is it the Government's intention to bring parallel legislation, the "Poolbeg incinerator no decision until after the general election Bill", given the situation in terms of the Tánaiste's Cabinet colleague, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform?

Mr. Stagg

That will be legislation on getting rid of the Minister, Deputy McDowell.

Mr. Boyle

Can the Tánaiste explain why this Bill is being published, given that it will allow a second domestic waste incinerator to be fast-tracked in Ringaskiddy in my constituency, while the legislation seems to exclude a delay but not a stopping of a similar facility in her colleague's constituency?

The Tánaiste

The Comhairle Bill was published and I understand it has been ordered for Second Stage. With regard to the second matter raised, any existing projects are not included in the legislation.

Mr. Kenny

In respect of what the Tánaiste said about the care of the elderly and her wish that there be a full debate here, will the Government publish the interdepartmental report on the elderly so that when the debate takes place it will be properly and fully informed?

A year ago yesterday, the Supreme Court ruled that long-stay nursing home charges were illegal for public beds. On 11 May, the Tánaiste announced that a private sector company would handle the repayment of charges to the 20,000 people involved. Nine months later not a single cent has been repaid. Last week we were informed that the private sector wanted between €30 million and €50 million to manage the repayment system. When will we see the promised legislation and why has it been delayed? Is she still insisting that a private sector firm handles the repayment scheme? I make that last point for a very good reason. When the Tánaiste announced that an ex gratia payment of €2,000 would be made as an interim measure to those concerned, the HSE and the public service paid 11,000 people. If the HSE is capable of paying out €22 million to 11,000 people, why is the Tánaiste insisting that a private sector company — two of which have submitted tenders for between €30 million and €50 million — be used to make the remainder of the payments? Is the HSE and the public service incapable, having paid 11,000 people already, of paying the remainder? It should be borne in mind that many of those involved do not have time on their side.

The Tánaiste

The legislation will be to hand in this session, as I have already stated. It has proved to be extraordinarily complex legislation for two reasons. First, there are legal issues around wards of court and second, around the private accounts of those in institutional care and whether the institutions are agents of them. The Comptroller and Auditor General will have things to say about that. That has involved very complex issues that have taken longer to resolve than anyone anticipated.

With regard to the charges, up to 70,000 people are involved, 40,000 or 50,000 of whom are dead. The PIAB was established by this House a number of years ago and has outsourced all of its administration to a company based in Cork. Last year the board made 20,000 payments, for an average of €30 per payment. There is no doubt the health service administration could do the job, but it would completely clog up the system for years. The administration would have to handle a volume of cases as high as 70,000, check the records to determine how long people were in institutions and so forth. That is very different to paying everybody €2,000. If everybody was to be paid the same amount, it would not be such a big issue, but clearly if one has to go through each case, try to establish how much each person is owed and apply interest, it becomes a mammoth task. That is why we sought outside assistance but clearly we are not going to pay large sums for that. If it cannot be done for a reasonable amount, then it will have to be done internally. However, the PIAB model is a good one and has worked extraordinarily well, with 20,000 claims paid in one year, using the outsourcing model with a company in Cork.

Ms Lynch

Is the Tánaiste aware, as Minister for Health and Children, that the number of children diagnosed with diabetes in Cork has doubled over a very short period of time and is now 207? There is now no diabetes nurse in Cork University Hospital, when there should be three. There is a part-time endocrinologist, access to a part-time social worker and part-time dietician. Some of the children are as young as 18 months——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Does the Deputy have a question on promised legislation?

Ms Lynch

I do. The Health Bill refers to the registration system in respect of services for children, older people and people with disabilities. It clearly covers the subject I am raising. Parents in Cork have children as young as 18 months with diabetes. One can only imagine the trauma of having to inject one's child and having no one to telephone to ask for advice when one cannot stabilise the child's condition. That is what is happening, not to mention the fact that there are 37 people on trolleys in two Cork city hospitals. Despite this, we were told by the Taoiseach yesterday, in the Tánaiste's absence, that we have an excellent health service. Will the Tánaiste do anything about the chronic situation for children with diabetes in Cork city?

The Tánaiste

This is more appropriate to a parliamentary question. There is no specific legislation relating to the issues in Cork.

Ms Lynch

I submitted a parliamentary question, was told that the Tánaiste could not answer it because it is now the responsibility of the Health Service Executive and I still have not got an answer.

Mr. McCormack

When will the Pharmacy Bill and the proposals for dealing with care of the elderly come before the Dáil for debate?

The Tánaiste

With regard to care of the elderly, I did not respond to Deputy Kenny's earlier question. When the Government finishes its deliberations on the interdepartmental report, we will make it available. The Pharmacy Bill ——

Mr. McCormack

Will that be in this session?

The Tánaiste

Yes, hopefully. There are two pharmacy Bills, one dealing with fitness to practice issues and the other with premises and service issues, both of which will be before the House this year, I hope. With regard to care of the elderly, there are a number of issues involved. Obviously the Repayments Bill will be brought forward fairly soon in this session.

An issue causing concern nationwide is fuel storage capacity. When will the National Oil Reserves Agency Bill, which has also been talked about for some time, be brought before the House?

I, like many other Deputies, submitted a parliamentary question to the Tánaiste last week about expenditure in some areas of the Department of Health and Children. I received a reply to the effect that my question had been referred for reply to the Health Service Executive but I did not ask the question of the Health Service Executive. I asked the question of the Minister and her Department, for which she is responsible. When the Tánaiste was in Opposition, she reminded the Government of the day, on a daily basis, of the responsibility of Ministers for every cent of expenditure under their control.

Dáil Éireann debate - Thursday, 16 Feb 2006

Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 16 Feb 2006