The report of the Business Committee of last week has been circulated and will be taken as read. Is the proposal for dealing with today's business agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with Wednesday's business agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with Thursday's business agreed to?
An tOrd Gnó - Order of Business
On Thursday's business, I wish to record again my objection to the very truncated debate that will take place on Covid-19. My colleague has already raised a very significant issue regarding indemnity. The fact is that the total allocation per Deputy is a sum of 54 seconds to discuss probably the most significant vaccination programme ever to take place in this State. We will now have a void in terms of the House sitting before the vaccination programme commences to allow anyone to throw out any information they may want to throw out without any vehicle to ask questions of the Government. The vaccination programme that has been published was published after the closing time for the submission of parliamentary questions. The Chief Whip has said the Minister will not answer questions in the House on Thursday night. The reality is that Dr. Ronan Glynn has come out publicly and stated that there are legitimate questions, yet Members of this House have no mechanism to ask any question of the Minister or hold the Government to account on any issue relating to this vaccination programme in advance of it commencing at the end of this year or early next year.
I again plead with the Taoiseach to facilitate a full and open debate on this issue here on Friday and for the Minister for Health to take legitimate questions from Members of this House on the issue of indemnity to the seven companies and perhaps more. The fact that we do not have a unique identifier will have huge implications for the implementation of that indemnity. There is also the fact that we do not have a no-fault compensation scheme and many other issues on which we all need clarity before this House rises for the Christmas recess.
I, too, am very concerned about this lack of debate and lack of discussion of the vaccine programme. I asked the Taoiseach about this some time ago and he dismissed me, as Deputy Connolly said, with a "get real". I am asking him to get real. The Rural Independent Group has 6.5 minutes to contribute to the debate on Thursday. Is that all we can get? Is that the meagre amount of time the Government is prepared to give us in a debate on this very serious issue? A no-fault compensation scheme is not even being discussed. The Taoiseach said he discussed it today at Cabinet and he is looking at some other report. This is farcical in the extreme, and that is why people out there are concerned. People such as Dr. Ronan Glynn are saying questions need to be answered. May we get any answers in here? Are we not supposed to be representatives of the people? Will we have any meaningful debate on the roll-out of this vaccine, which may well have commenced before we come back here on 13 January? It is a disgrace and, like everything else about the way the Government has handled Covid, so illogical. This is hiding from the Parliament and hiding from accountability. We are entitled to ask questions here and hold the Government to account. It is shameful. Six and a half minutes is an insult to the democratic process. To think that we could discuss this serious issue in six and a half minutes per group - there are six in our group - is a sham and a scam.
As the Ceann Comhairle will be aware, I objected at the Business Committee to the short amount of time available for the debate on the vaccine. I will add to the points that have already been made. This is a huge undertaking, and People Before Profit is very pleased that we have, or hope to have very soon, vaccines available. We have no doubt about their importance in trying to combat the pandemic, but significant measures need to be put in place to make this vaccine roll-out campaign a success. We need a major public health education campaign about the importance of vaccines and the roles they have played in the past. We need to address the huge deficit we have in our public health teams, which will be a part of the roll-out.
I had a very alarming conversation with one of our public health doctors who described in grim detail the lack of IT, the lack of a vaccine register, the chronic understaffing of our public health teams and the lack of integration of those teams with the rest of our health system. Because of the lack of resourcing and staffing of our public health teams, we will have to co-ordinate many different moving parts in a fragmented system to try to develop what should be a cohesive and integrated vaccine campaign.
There are therefore very many reasons to be concerned. There is also the issue of intellectual property rights in respect of the global roll-out of this vaccine to poor countries. If they do not get the vaccine, it could potentially undermine the efficacy of the vaccine everywhere. There are a lot of issues, more than I can enunciate in the short time available to me. We need a longer debate on this. The amount of time available to the small parties is ridiculous and unacceptable.
I agree with the other Deputies on vaccines. There should be more time for debate. There should be a questions and answers session as well in order that we can raise the issues we want. We should sit on Friday to facilitate that.
We should be doing the same with regard to Brexit. I raised the issue on the Order of Business last week. We want these issues to be dealt with in questions-and-answers format. Time has been allocated on Thursday evening for questions and answers, but it is more for statements and speeches. That is not what we need on Brexit. What we need are questions and answers. There is a range of issues that need to be raised. There are questions to be asked about the UK land bridge, what will happen in fisheries and whether there will be a deal. We have heard from the Government in terms of the supports it will give to businesses such as those in the agrifood sector in the case of a no-deal Brexit and that is welcome, but we have not heard anything about what supports will be provided to help low-income and medium-income households to cope with increased food prices. A national audit of Brexit readiness has been published in the UK. When will our national audit of Brexit readiness be published? There is a range of questions on this issue to which we want answers and scrutiny. I ask that the provision for statements on Brexit be amended to the questions-and-answers format we have been requesting. The House should sit on Friday to allocate more time to the issues of vaccines and Brexit.
The Labour Party too registered its dissent on the lack of time that has been allocated and the lack of a questions-and-answers session on Thursday. I put it to the Taoiseach - the Chief Whip, Deputy Chambers, is aware of it - that the Labour Party has put forward a proposal under Standing Orders to have a questions-and-answers session on the vaccine every week for the foreseeable future and at least until early in the new year. If that were agreed to, it would satisfy many of the concerns on this side of the House given the gravity and importance of the success of the vaccine programme.
There are serious issues relating to the vaccine and there are serious issues relating to trust and transparency. The comments of the Taoiseach in personalising things when a person such as me asks a Leaders' Question, the opportunity for which only comes up on a circular basis, are not helpful. I do not take it personally, but the thing is that the Taoiseach is ignoring the facts I raised and my colleagues are raising relating to the serious issues of how we get people to take the vaccination in sufficient numbers. We cannot do that if there is no trust. Trust is based on transparency and facts. I, as a Deputy, have absolutely no facts relating to the indemnity except that it is open-ended and is being given to at least six companies. That number is rising.
Only today, the Taoiseach has looked at the Meenan report. It has been on his desk for months. He has not told us for how long it has been sitting there, when it was completed, why it has not been published or why he has not acted on it. If he wishes for us to work with him and he wishes us to encourage people to take the vaccine, he should stop the snide comments, the joking and putting people down and let us deal with the issues and the facts.
I note that the record of the meeting of the Business Committee last Thursday indicates that almost all members of the Opposition who were present dissented on the issue of no time being allocated for questions on Brexit and the vaccine issue. Today at short notice we have been advised that the debates relating to the Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement that were scheduled have been pulled back. That has been welcomed by all members of the Opposition. It has saved two hours from the schedule today on the Government side and that is fine. I think the way to deal with the concerns that have been expressed is for the statements that are proposed for Thursday evening on the Covid-19 task force, the issue of vaccinations and Brexit to be taken on Friday. I propose that we now schedule a sitting for Friday and allow more time. The proposal for Thursday's business allocates 145 minutes each to Brexit and the Covid-19 task force. Instead, there should be two 220-minute debates, with time set aside for questions, and that business should be taken on Friday. The Government is packing everything into Thursday night. The Dáil is currently scheduled to sit until midnight on Thursday, but it will probably go on until 1 a.m. I suggest to the Taoiseach and the Chief Whip that the wise thing to do would be to take both sets of statements on Friday with a bit more time allocated to them and provision for questions and answers such that we can wrap up properly for the Christmas period having done our job effectively.
First of all, I point out to the House that at no stage have I got personal on this issue.
The Taoiseach has done so.
I certainly have not. Through the Chair, I did not interrupt anybody.
The Taoiseach should tell the truth.
The least Deputies are entitled to is the courtesy of being allowed to make our points. Perhaps the most important thing we could do today is to agree to de-politicise the entire vaccine issue. Brian MacCraith, the chairman of the high-level task force in relation to the vaccination programme, will appear tomorrow before the Joint Committee on Health. The central theme of the strategy that will be launched today by the Minister for Health, Deputy Donnelly, along with the Chief Medical Officer, the head of the HSE and the head of the task force is transparency, openness and also the principle of informed consent on behalf of citizens. Nothing will be hidden here in terms of the development of the vaccine or the issues pertaining to it. It is all about open transparency. In many ways, the personnel involved at the highest level are open to answering questions from anybody in whatever forum or forums. That is an important point I have to make today. It is not doing justice to the work that is being put into this. The strategy in terms of rolling out the vaccine was endorsed by Cabinet today for the first time. It is a comprehensive strategy. Likewise, the implementation plan is comprehensive.
I have referenced the indemnity issue on a number of occasions in the House. It was necessary and the advanced purchasing was necessary in terms of giving the firepower, if one likes, to develop the vaccines. This is a collective public welfare and well-being issue not just here, but across Europe and globally. What Deputies are witnessing is unique collaboration between the private sector, through the pharmaceutical companies, and the State. Governments do not produce vaccines. They do not have the manufacturing capacity to produce vaccines. That collaboration has resulted in an extraordinary acceleration of the vaccine development process through co-ordination and open books and so on in terms of the data, as well as the fact that the regulatory authorities have watched this from the very beginning so that they are in a position to make a decision more speedily than perhaps they would ordinarily have done. That has all been well documented and published. The only objective here is to get a safe vaccine available as quickly as possible. That is the only agenda. What other agenda could there be?
Then why can we not have a debate on it?
What other agenda could there be but to do that? In terms of holding a debate, as I stated, tomorrow the Joint Committee on Health will be dealing with the issue of vaccination. It is now expected that the European Medicines Agency will have an extraordinary general meeting on 21 December. That may bring forward the conditional market authorisation of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine. That means administration could start at some stage after that. I do not have a specific timeline here. The House will return in January. I have no issue at all, by the way, if the Dáil wishes to come back for any length of time it wishes. This issue is not going away in the first two weeks of January. I can assure the House of that. The Moderna vaccine is currently pencilled in for a hearing by the European Medicines Agency on 12 January.
As far as the Government is concerned, on Friday there is a meeting of the North-South Ministerial Council. It is an important meeting that is being held virtually and will involve quite a lot of Ministers. That is something that should go ahead, in my view. It is the second such meeting since the restoration of the Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly, so quite a number of Ministers will not be available, including the Minister for Health, Deputy Donnelly.
The bottom line is that the Government cannot facilitate the request for the House to sit on Friday.
Yes. On Brexit, I have to point out that there was a fairly extensive debate on Brexit in the context of the Withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union (Consequential Provisions) Bill 2020. That involved various Departments and areas and several Ministers came before the House over a two-week period.
A Deputy
Matters have changed since then.
I thank the Taoiseach for his comprehensive explanation.
Question put: "That the proposal for dealing with Thursday's business be agreed to."
The Dáil divided: Tá, 25; Níl, 20; Staon, 0.
Tá
- Browne, James.
- Bruton, Richard.
- Burke, Colm.
- Calleary, Dara.
- Carey, Joe.
- Carroll MacNeill, Jennifer.
- Chambers, Jack.
- Collins, Niall.
- Devlin, Cormac.
- Dillon, Alan.
- Farrell, Alan.
- Foley, Norma.
- Grealish, Noel.
- Griffin, Brendan.
- Haughey, Seán.
- Higgins, Emer.
- Martin, Micheál.
- Matthews, Steven.
- McAuliffe, Paul.
- Murphy, Eoghan.
- Murphy, Verona.
- Noonan, Malcolm.
- O'Brien, Darragh.
- Ó Cathasaigh, Marc.
- Richmond, Neale.
Níl
- Andrews, Chris.
- Boyd Barrett, Richard.
- Clarke, Sorca.
- Conway-Walsh, Rose.
- Doherty, Pearse.
- Gannon, Gary.
- Harkin, Marian.
- Kelly, Alan.
- Kenny, Martin.
- Mac Lochlainn, Pádraig.
- McDonald, Mary Lou.
- McGrath, Mattie.
- Mitchell, Denise.
- Naughten, Denis.
- O'Callaghan, Cian.
- O'Donoghue, Richard.
- Ó Broin, Eoin.
- Pringle, Thomas.
- Smith, Duncan.
- Ward, Mark.
Staon
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Brendan Griffin and Jack Chambers; Níl, Deputies Mattie McGrath and Richard O'Donoghue.
Question declared carried.
Last week, we had the very welcome news of an agreement on the Irish protocol. While we still need to see the detail and how it will be implemented in practice, such progress is important for everyone on the island. From speaking to people in Brussels this morning, it appears that there has been movement over the past 24 hours, at least in principle, on the level playing field and governance, providing some level of optimism that a deal might still be possible. However, given the shortness of time, if there is not an agreement by the end of the week, it is unlikely that the ratification process will happen this year. Could the Taoiseach give us an update on progress in the talks? Does he have a view on the possible extension of the transition period or the provisional application of the treaty until ratification can take place in January?
I thank Deputy McDonald for raising the issue. I agree that the news last week of a conclusion to the negotiations on the protocol and the withdrawal agreement was very good news. Both sides deserve commendation in terms of the constructive way that they engaged. The indications were good prior to signing off on that agreement which was important in terms of the experience on the post-Brexit island of Ireland. The fact that both sides are still in negotiations is a good sign. It gives me greater hope than I had last week that a resolution can potentially be found to the very difficult and challenging issue of a level playing field and fisheries and a dispute resolution mechanism to deal with that. It is important that both sides get it right and that they concentrate on getting a deal. If they can get a deal over the line, subsequent to that, it is a matter for the member states and others then to work out how we deal with that procedurally.
Thanks to the pressure of the German Minister for health, the European Commission has brought forward the approval process for the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine to 21 December. We all hope it will be approved and we are aware that it will then take a day or two for the market authorisation. Does the Taoiseach agree with the Minister for Health, Deputy Donnelly, that there is a strong possibility that we will be in a position in this country to vaccinate some citizens on the priority list before the end of this year?
Yes, we may very well be. It depends on what happens on 21 December. The European Council discussed the matter last week. We made it very clear that there would be no pressure on the European Medicines Agency in making its decision, although we were conscious that the FDA's decision on the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine was coming sooner. Then there are the logistics of transporting the vaccine. There is every possibility now that it may indeed be the case that some people may get vaccinated before the end of the year.
I think all of us across the Chamber can agree that a monumental effort by all staff - teachers, SNAs and others throughout the school community - has gone into keeping schools open throughout the pandemic. I note that today, UNICEF has called for teachers, and I imagine also SNAs, to be prioritised in the roll-out of the vaccine.
In terms of the provisional order in which people will be vaccinated that has just been released, key workers in essential jobs who cannot avoid a high risk of exposure are No. 10 and people working in education are No. 11. How do we differentiate between essential workers and teachers? If possible, could we consider teachers and SNAs as front-line staff in terms of prioritisation for vaccination so that we can continue to keep schools open?
The strategy and sequencing of who gets the vaccine first is a live document. Some of it will depend on the availability, manufacturing and volumes of vaccines that will come into the country at particular stages. As I said yesterday morning, January and February will see limited supplies, relatively speaking, although I hope we should have enough to get all our nursing home residents and staff vaccinated.
I said last week that the national immunisation advisory committee was involved in this decision and it is a body with long-standing experience in immunisation matters with the HSE and the National Public Health Emergency Team, NPHET. As far as possible, we should allow the public health specialists to determine the sequencing. It is based really on the vaccine being particularly effective in preventing ill health from the virus and reducing symptoms. That seems to be its stronger quality. Again, the experts would take questions from the Deputy and others on this.
I raise with the Taoiseach the treatment of Aer Lingus workers by company management. For five months now they have been blocked by management from getting the short-time working payment to which they are entitled. Workers have been providing the relevant UP12 forms to the company with the details of the reduced hours they are on. However, the company has not been forwarding that information accurately to the Department of Social Protection. Instead, continuously and consistently, the company has put the wrong information on the forms, indicating that workers have been doing full hours while they have only been on 50% of total hours. The workers fear there is an attempt effectively to starve them out of the company and replace them with new workers on worse terms and conditions.
The company is in receipt of substantial State money through the temporary Covid-19 wage subsidy scheme, so will the Government intervene immediately to ensure the forms are filled out correctly and workers can get the money they are owed for Christmas or else threaten to freeze the funds?
In terms of any issues between Aer Lingus and employees, we implore all employers to treat their employees properly and fairly. I do not have the specifics of the case and it is not a legislative matter because there is no legislation promised on the matter as outlined. If the Deputy wishes to make a submission to the Government on that, he may do so.
The Taoiseach knows with the rolling out of the vaccine programme that informed consent will be vital. Where older people in nursing homes may have dementia, for example, or where some older people may be unsure if they will avail of the vaccine, will the Taoiseach assure the House that older people will not be told that access to visitors is dependent on them availing of the vaccination programme and that there will be proper informed consent in the administration of the vaccine in nursing homes throughout the country?
I do not know who has suggested that.
Is the Taoiseach going to answer the question?
I am answering it rhetorically. I am slightly concerned that such ideas are being put out there without any source or origin. Nobody is suggesting-----
How are we going to deal with informed consent?
The strategy has a very clear ethical framework governing informed consent and that deals very much with the matters raised by the Deputy. Informed consent is essential and it is an ethical requirement in administering the vaccine. Nobody has suggested that somebody might be denied a visitor because he or she does not want the vaccine. It is outrageous to suggest or imply that. I do not know who said it.
We do not have any other mechanism to raise such matters.
The Deputy knows he does. He is an experienced Deputy.
I have been at this for 18 years.
A company in Tipperary called KB Sports is owned by Mr. Kieran Bergin and it has become involved with online trading and parcel delivery. It has 16 workers and is to employ 17 more. The company has a large number of deliveries to make as it is one of the top 50 online shippers in Ireland. It has hundreds or thousands of deliveries to make.
The company was informed by An Post out of the blue that the final shipping date for Christmas was 14 December. It was not made aware of that date beforehand. The company decided to go with An Post because it wanted to deal with local businesses. We salute all the fir phoist agus mná poist for the work they do, but this is shocking. The company has committed to make deliveries all over world, including to clubs and families, but this cannot be done. There is going to be a huge breach of faith that will be very damaging to that wonderful new company that adapted to the lockdown to help people. This is very serious.
I do not know the details of the case. I do not know if the Deputy has contacted An Post but I suggest he should do so urgently on behalf of the company.
It can do as it likes.
I cannot deal with every individual decision of every semi-State body and its operational decisions.
The final report of the Special Committee on Covid-19 Response recommended a move away from residential care towards care in the community for elderly people. In part, this was based on its interim report but it was also influenced by the Covid-19 nursing homes expert panel report. There are various reports going back to Time to Move on from Congregated Settings - A Strategy for Community Inclusion, a HSE report from 2011. Today, the Sage Advocacy group again called for greater choice to be provided to our elderly people in the care they receive. Will the Government introduce legislation to allow care in the community for people so they will have a meaningful choice rather than being forced into residential care settings?
The Government is disposed, especially with the option in the fair deal scheme, to people having the option of home care-based supports. As the Deputy knows, in the recent budget there was a record allocation to home care packages and interventions in the community. It appears that is having an impact with a better flow in the hospital system and reduced waiting times for people on trolleys compared with this time last year. That is relative to admission rates as well. There is a commitment to look at giving legislative provision for home care.
On 28 December 1972, a bomb that originated in County Fermanagh caused the deaths of Geraldine O'Reilly and Paddy Stanley in Belturbet, County Cavan, while injuring many other people. Unfortunately, nobody has ever been brought to justice for this heinous crime and there has never been a proper or thorough investigation in Northern Ireland into the persons responsible for this activity.
On 10 September, during oral questions to the Minister for Justice, I brought to the attention of the House new information that had come to me through the work of Dr. Edward Burke of the University of Nottingham regarding collusion between British state forces and loyalist paramilitaries in Northern Ireland relating to bombings in the southern Border counties. Will the Taoiseach pursue again with the Northern Ireland and British authorities the need to have proper, full and thorough investigations into the bombing in Belturbet? The least the O'Reilly and Stanley families deserve is the truth and the identity of the reprehensible people who caused the deaths of two young innocent people. It is never too late to get the truth.
Last night "RTÉ Investigates" very powerfully demonstrated the horror, trauma and tragedy of the killings of Geraldine O'Reilly, who was 15, and Paddy Stanley, who was 16, in the Belturbet bombings 48 years ago. Nobody has been convicted. To compound the grief further, the families have suffered further because An Garda Síochána will not disclose the contents of the reports of the investigation to the families because it is still considered live, which is utterly wrong 48 years later. As we know, the Belturbet bombing was later added to the interim report on the Dublin and Monaghan bombings.
I ask the Taoiseach today for a proper and full investigation into this atrocity, the murder of two innocent teenagers. It is never too late to do the right thing and full, open and transparent reports should be made available to the O'Reilly and Stanley families so we can bring peace to their minds.
I thank the Deputies for raising this matter, the murder of two young innocent people in Belturbet in 1972. The victims were two teenagers, Geraldine O'Reilly and Patrick Stanley. It was a reprehensible crime. Deputies Smith and Smyth have been pursuing the matter for quite some time and the Garda investigation remains open. I will pursue the matter with the British authorities and the authorities in Northern Ireland.
I accept the point made by both Deputies that the families involved have been left with no answers. Unfortunately, in recent times we have had a number of cases where families have not gotten closure. This involves the British Government but also the non-State actors who continue to stay silent about what they know. They need to start living up to their obligations in terms of telling people what they know about heinous crimes of this kind. In this particular case I will do everything I possibly can to see if we can get further answers for the families.
Unfortunately we have run out of time so the matter to be raised by Deputy Danny Healy-Rae will be dealt with tomorrow.