JOINT COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS, ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES debate -
Wednesday, 18 Jun 2008

Environmental Matters: Discussion.

Chairman

I welcome the representatives from the Avoca Mine Heritage Group and the Gortmore-Silvermines Environmental Action Group. In particular, I welcome Andy and Marie Merrigan from the Avoca Mine Heritage Group. The joint committee has invited the representatives to this meeting to discuss the Avoca River clean-up and related environmental issues.

Before we begin, I draw everybody's attention to the fact that members of this committee have absolute privilege, but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. The committee cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it. Furthermore, under salient rulings of the Chair, members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House, or an official by name, in such a way as to make or her identifiable.

Ms Marie Merrigan

I am a member of the Avoca Community Development Association. As committee members probably know, the Vale of Avoca is renowned in song and story for the stunning beauty of its landscape and its waters, but it has an equally spectacular dimension in its mine site. A rural industrial heritage of the magnitude of Avoca is unique in Ireland. The Avoca mine has the longest history of continuous ore output anywhere in Ireland. Fortunately, almost 200 acres of mine landscape still survive today.

I am here to appeal for members' support for the preservation of the Avoca mine site, its derelict buildings and its associated disturbed ground. Our group has been working on a mine preservation project for the past 14 years and has done much of the emergency remedial works on the old mine buildings. We have provided photocopies of photographs of two engine houses we have restored. At one stage these houses looked like tree stumps covered in ivy, but they have been completely restored with the help of some grant aid and fund raising. We have also carried out emergency remedial works on all seven engine houses in the valley.

The mine site is in Government ownership. We are working towards providing a themed mine heritage park which would also be a public park for the area. This would benefit the area by helping retain tourists for an extra meal or bed night and provide a leisure facility for local people, something which should be encouraged in this sedentary era.

While the value of industrial heritage is recognised and the mine buildings get some level of respect, the mine landscape is in danger. Its value from the heritage aspect is not realised by many. We know of the value of the site not just because we live there and are aware of its unique history, but because we have visited mine sites abroad. The site has similarities to sites in Cornwall from the technological and geological point of view. We have visited Cornwall frequently. In the 1980s, many mine sites in Cornwall were destroyed by the authorities because they did not realise their heritage value. Today, they all say they regret their actions. We want to get the message across that the Avoca mine site is valuable and if we allow it to be destroyed, we will regret it. Cornwall has learned from its mistakes. We hope Irish people can learn from its mistakes also and protect the Avoca site.

An industrial heritage site of the magnitude of Avoca is unique in Ireland. The Avoca mine has the longest history of continuous ore output anywhere in Ireland and it is fortunate we have an area of mine landscape of this extent that has survived. We should preserve Avoca because its history is different from the history of most small rural settlements. It is a rural industrial history, not an agricultural one. The landscape in Avoca is symbolic of this history. The disturbed mine landscape is the natural setting for the engine houses and green fields would be out of character as their surrounding. The removal of the spoil heaps and associated disturbed mine ground would create a false landscape, which is why we want to try to have the mine landscape preserved.

The fact Avoca is a heritage area is obvious when we compare it to similar sites worldwide. If similar sites to Avoca are heritage areas and are protected, then Avoca is also a heritage area. Destroying the Avoca mine landscape would destroy a heritage site. Mining at Avoca has considerable links with mining at Cornwall, which has been given world heritage status. UNESCO is considering establishing transnational world mine sites, something from which Avoca could benefit, providing we still have a mine site when this project gets under way. We need, therefore, to protect the Avoca mine site.

The site at Avoca should be preserved because mining at Avoca is probably as old as history. No archaeological studies have been undertaken at Avoca, but in the 1980s a mine manager, Edward Barnes, reported that when he first came to Avoca, he saw evidence of mining trials before the use of gunpowder and mechanisation. The site should be protected because it has never had a full archaeological study. Remedial works without proper archaeological work are destroying valuable archaeology.

The Avoca landscape is not just a derelict mine site, but all that remains of what was once a glorious industrial past. It symbolises Avoca's identity as a mining community. Having the site available for transformation from a neglected, abandoned, industrial site into a positive asset — a themed mine heritage park — would make it an integral part of the local community and give the community a sense of pride in its industrial heritage and help ensure the continuity of both the social and physical heritage. In today's global world, retention of individuality is very important. The loss or transformation of the mining environment could be culturally traumatic for a mining community. Destroying the Avoca site would destroy the essence of Avoca's soul.

The Avoca site provides a basis for the development of a derelict site into a themed mine heritage park, where visitors can experience mine heritage at first hand. An economically sustainable unique tourism product would increase the duration of a visitor's stay in Avoca and create a recreational facility for locals. By encouraging economically sustainable forms of recreation, it would make the area a healthier and more attractive place in which to live, thereby encouraging inward investment. Destroying the Avoca site would destroy this potential. Therefore, we should protect the mine site.

The site should also be protected for its geological value and for biotechnology purposes. The mine site contains an area of acidophilic bacteria. Varieties of these bacteria, which accelerate the breakdown of sulphidic minerals, are of considerable interest for the biotechnology area and for the extraction of copper and gold from sulphide ores. These types of studies are being carried out elsewhere and any work carried out in Avoca in the area would have an international dimension.

The landscape should be protected for purposes of mineralogy. The formation of secondary minerals in the oxidising surface of the contaminated land is fertile ground for research mineralogists. Sites contaminated by metalliferous mining over centuries provide locations for the collection of rare mineral species, which in turn give scope for identification and documentation of archaeological mineral processing development.

The landscape should be preserved because the mine spoil heaps are of scientific interest to ecologists. The presence of metals has led to the evolution of plants which differ genetically from those growing on normal soils. They have become metal tolerant and can be used in research on food crops in a world where we have ever increasing food problems. Peregrine falcons are nesting in some of the open pits and these should be protected.

The landscape should be preserved because the mine site provides suitable growing conditions for a wide range of unusual plants. Lichens that colonise the Avoca spoil heaps are rare survivors of extreme conditions. Bare ground is also a habitat in its own right and a variety of insects use it for nesting and for chasing prey. East Avoca mine site has sizeable potential for underground mine heritage trips which can be developed.

We have done a lot of work on the mine site. We have the remains of seven engine houses. They were completely derelict and ivy-covered. We have restored them with Leader funding and matched that funding by fund-raising. This engine house is one of the most spectacular Cornish engine houses anywhere in the world. It is called the Williams engine house. That description of the mine building as being one of the best anywhere in the world is from a Cornish archaeologist who is an expert in Cornish mine sites. We also have a dry stone mineral tramway arch which is the only authentic dry stone mineral tramway arch surviving in these islands. It is a bridge over an unused road but most of them anywhere else were on roads that were used and thus fell to development.

In order to show the committee what the mine site looked like when mining was being undertaken, I have a black and white photograph for examination. We do not know how long mining has been taking place in Avoca but the Greek geographer, Ptolemy, is said to have referred to a river spelled, OBOKA, in 150 AD. He was referring to ore being traded at that time. Modern mining at Avoca started in 1730. Initially the mines were under the ownership of the same companies that owned mines in western England and Wales. In 1830, the Williams family from Cornwall came to Avoca and they brought the Cornish technology, the engine houses, etc., with them. Mining carried on in Avoca until 1982, when the mines closed.

I hope my presentation will persuade the committee to help us preserve our mine site.

Chairman

At this stage I welcome Mr. Michael Leamy and his colleagues who are representing the Gortmore-Silvermines Environmental Action Group and I invite him to make his presentation.

Mr. Michael Leamy

I introduce the members of the delegation, Mr. John Maher, Mr. John Hogan, Mr. Richard O'Brien, Ms Margaret Ryan. I am the chairman of the group. Our committee consists of ten or 11 members, five of whom are here and it has been active for the past 24 years. I thank the members of the committee for asking us to attend and we have been here before. I have copies of our presentation for everyone and it includes reports we commissioned and examples of monthly readings which have been taken in the area. I invite members to take a copy away with them.

Silvermines has been a centre of mining since the Middle Ages with the mining of silver, copper, lead and zinc. Mogul Ireland started mining in the late 1960s and closed down in 1982. The closure left a 139-acre site with mine tailings of a height of 40 feet which contained toxic waste. Since then, we have endured dust blows on a regular basis, the most recent of which was yesterday afternoon at 2 p.m.

Our committee was formed in 1984 by farmers, house owners, residents and other people from the local community. Ms Margaret Ryan is a nurse, for instance. We come from all parts, north, south, east and west around the site. We all live in the area. We have been fighting to have the area cleaned up since then. The area consists of a number of different sites, the primary one being Gortmore. There is another significant site in the rehabilitation project at Garryard where it is proposed to put the toxic waste from the other mine sites and to cap it. This would contain all the toxic waste in one site with Gortmore being the primary site.

Our aim is to make those responsible for this environmental disaster take responsibility for the health and environmental hazards which local people have endured on a daily basis. We have chased the mining company for many years. Three years ago the Government decided to intervene and take responsibility as it believed the mining company was not meeting its obligations under clause K of the mining lease. This was an unprecedented move which some of us believed we would never see happen but we are very grateful that it has happened.

After 24 years our aim is still to see the rehabilitation project completed satisfactorily and as quickly as possible so that our generation and particularly our children's generation can have a clean environment in which to grow up and live in. We do not think this is too much to ask. All we want is to breathe clean air the same as everybody else in the country. We have a lot of young families living in the area because of the Celtic tiger. Many young families have moved into the area. There are three schools within a two-mile radius of the site.

As a result of animal deaths, in 1999 the Government set up an inter-agency group which consisted of personnel from the relevant Departments. The IAG, as it was called, commissioned SRK Consulting to draw up a draft rehabilitation plan. This resulted in the IAG making 39 recommendations, many of which have been implemented but all the toxic mine sites have yet to be rehabilitated. In August 2005 the Government took on responsibility for the clean-up and rehabilitation of all mine sites in the area, committing €10.6 million in funds.

Regarding the status of the work on the sites, as it stands, the only work ongoing is a heritage project. We do not know when the work will begin on cleaning up Gortmore. We are told it is imminent. A letter of intent to sign the contract has been sent to the contractors. We understand insurance issues have arisen in the case of the contractor's insurance. This work will not be as comprehensive as we would wish and there are many questions about the budget. We tried to get assurances from North Tipperary County Council but because of all the issues we are not sure when the work will start, despite the Minister's comments in the Dáil a couple of weeks ago. We do not know when the work will be completed. To date, no physical rehabilitation has taken place. Toxic dust continues to blow off the tailings pond, as recorded by the EPA dust monitors which are read monthly by the county council on behalf of the EPA. Our presentation pack includes an example of the readings and it lists all the different chemicals for which the area is tested. I refer to antimony, which is supposed to be carcinogenic, arsenic and many other things. Many of these materials are carcinogenic and this is worrying.

We are concerned about the long-term effects of this dust on the people living in the area. A report by the EPA in January 1999 deemed the Gortmore site to be a perpetual risk to human health and the environment. It went on to say that it therefore requires a structured, comprehensive, active and continued management. This was stated nine years ago and nothing has changed since. As a direct result of animal deaths in the late 1990s, the Department of Health and Children undertook a blood level testing programme of adults and children in areas where high levels of lead were detected. Some of the adults and children had elevated lead levels in their blood at that stage.

As a result of our concern we raised funds and commissioned a report by Professor R. P. Finnegan concerning led levels in children at Silvermines. We were also concerned about other fugitive dust emissions that were shown to be blowing off the tailings pond on a monthly basis. Professor Finnegan's report confirmed our worst fears. There are three reports. Page 24 of the main report states that there is arsenic present in the fugitive dust emissions in significant amounts at similar synergistic effects to lead in the induction of anaemia, which is an immunosuppressant and is a primary carcinogen. I did not understand the word "synergistic" when I read it. What it means is that if a person is exposed to lead it is a carcinogen. If a person is exposed to lead and arsenic, which are two carcinogens, it doubles the person's chances of getting cancer. A person exposed to three carcinogens triples the chances and four would quadruple the chance. That is what we are living with. At least half a dozen carcinogens have been identified as coming from this site on a daily basis. The report made frightening reading. I ask members to go through the conclusions of our reports when they get them. I do not know whether members have a copy.

I will go through the photographs. The first photograph shows the Gortmore site. There is a bungalow behind the site which is Mr. John Hogan's house. Mr. Hogan's farmland can be seen behind it. Many houses are extremely close to this area. In 1983 or 1984, when we had a bad dust blow, Mr. Hogan's wife was pregnant and they needed to be evacuated from the house. Even though the house was sealed, when they came back there was a quarter of an inch of dust in all the presses. Mr. Hogan's family still live through that every day, as do all our families.

The next photograph is taken from the Magcobar site which is another site looking down on Gortmore. The third photograph was not taken with a shaded lens. That is the colour of the dust blow when it occurs. It is a bright red colour. That is what the site looks like at the moment. There was no doctoring of the pictures. The fourth photograph could have been taken in any desert in the world, but it was not. It is in a little corner of Tipperary within half a mile of all our houses.

When the €10.6 million was committed to the clean up we were assured that Gortmore would be fully rehabilitated by the summer of 2009. The commitment was given that Gortmore would be "frontloaded and prioritised" as it was a health hazard. Recently we were informed that only €2 million would be made available in 2008 with the remaining work to be carried out on a phased basis over three to four years. We have been told that the work on Gortmore will cost between €7 million and €8 million. We can understand a phased basis on some of the other five or six sites that have planning issues and we could understand doing one site at a time on those sites or smaller sites. There is no reason to deal with Gortmore on a phased basis.

Our main concern is the lack of commitment to complete the rehabilitation in as short a timeframe as possible. We would like the budget to be made available for each individual site in the Silvermines clean-up as a standalone project. The rehabilitation of each site should be completed as separate projects. While we can understand working on some sites on a phased basis, there is no logical explanation for dealing with Gortmore on a phased basis. The funding should be provided to complete all the projects taking into account inflation and increased costs.

We believe the existing budget is insufficient. The project timeline should be fully outlined for the complete rehabilitation of Gortmore and the other mining sites. This timeline needs to be adhered to. A more proactive approach needs to be adopted to tendering for the work on the rehabilitation project. There is a concern that complications in this area are not helping the speedy completion of the project with components of the work being done in bite sizes. It is being done piecemeal as we speak. There is talk of treating Gortmore as a three or four-year project. The local authority is overseeing all this work and is distributing the funds. This year it had almost €2 million to spend on Gortmore. It needed to wait to see how much funding it received before it could call in the consultants to provide a tender document to estimate approximately what the €2 million would cover. We do not know how much it will get next year to spend on Gortmore. It will again need to call in its consultants to draw up a tender document for whatever amount it gets. There is considerable duplication. Considerable extra money is being spent that should not need to be spent.

The committee might consider inviting the relevant departmental officials to appear before a future meeting to address our concerns. Approximately five years ago members of the previous committee visited Gortmore although they did not visit any of the other sites. We would like to invite members of the committee to visit in the future when this project is fully operational to see how the money is being used. It is an unprecedented project in the history of the State where the Government is stepping in and carrying out the clean-up. We would appreciate it if the committee would keep a watchful eye on what is going on with all the different phases of the project to ensure it is kept on the move.

We would like to meet the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Ryan, sometime. We have met him before. He has been in our area once or twice, but that is a different story. All we want is a clean environment for ourselves and our children in which to live. We are not asking for any more or less than anybody else in the country is entitled to. We do not believe it is too much to ask. I thank the members for listening to our presentation.

Chairman

Before taking questions and answers, I remind members that officials from the mining division of the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources are also here today. After this phase we will ask them to come in.

Deputy Noel J. Coonan

I welcome both delegations this afternoon. The committee is very concerned about what is happening in both areas. It is somewhat unusual that people from Avoca are seeking to have a mining site restored when in my area we have a few of them that we would like to have taken away altogether. The Avoca issue is very important and I hope the committee will give it due consideration. We will take up those issues with the Department. I am not that au fait with it to the extent that I am with the Silvermines issue.

I have some questions for the Silvermines deputation. Have they been told what the proposed €2 million will do for the rehabilitation of the approximately 150-acre Gortmore site? I understand that the €2 million allocated is not remotely adequate to deal with the problem and that we will end up with an Irish solution to an Irish problem with part of the site rehabilitated and the other part not rehabilitated.

The history of the issue, for those who do not know the area, is that sections of the site become eroded every year. When we visited the area we observed that sections of the grass cover was about to blow away. I am told only the edges of the site will be covered. It is important to clarify that issue.

We were informed prior to the general election that €10.6 million had been allocated and work would be completed satisfactorily. This undertaking was welcomed at the time. However, we are now informed a meagre sum of €2 million has been allocated.

TheGortmore-Silvermines Environmental Action Group was established in November 2002. Residents in the area have endured a dust blow for 24 years. We have experienced an unprecedented economic boom yet money was not spent to address this problem in the good times. Now that we are entering relatively bad times owing to external and other factors, money will not be spent. I seek clarification on this matter.

What information has the Gortmore-Silvermines Environmental Action Group been given regarding the five other sites in the area? I accept that rehabilitating the Garryard site will be difficult. The explanation given by the Department and mining experts, that various licences must be obtained before the other sites can be cleaned up and the toxic material brought to Garryard, makes some sense. What are the proposals for other sites, such as Magcobar, Shalee and Ballygowan?

During my time as a member of the Mid-Western Health Board, major concerns arose about lead poisoning and lead contamination of water supplies and many people in the area had their blood tested. High levels of lead were found in a number people, including, unfortunately, children. Is testing still taking place? What is the role of the Health Service Executive in this regard? Concerns were expressed at the time about the proximity of Silvermines school to the tailings pond.

The Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and local farmers have raised food safety and animal welfare concerns and we know some animals contracted lead poisoning by drinking contaminated water. What information has the deputation been given on these matters?

The problem of dust-blows must give rise to serious food safety concerns. We heard a dust-blow occurred yesterday in the height of the agricultural production season. What safety measures have been introduced to alleviate the concerns of the local community given that local people eat local produce? Are animal welfare concerns being addressed?

According to county council officials, it would cost €25 million to carry out a complete and comprehensive rehabilitation programme of the entire Silvermines area. Has the group received assurances from the Department that this sum will be made available? If so, will it be made available in the lifetime of the current Government? As we heard, local people have been waiting for years to have these issues addressed. I hope my colleagues on the joint committee will support having this problem addressed urgently.

Deputy Liz McManus

I wish the Chairman well in his new role and welcome our guests. As a Deputy from County Wicklow, I am particularly pleased representatives of the Avoca Mine Heritage Group have been able to attend. Our rural industrial heritage tends to be overlooked. Addressing this shortcoming is long overdue because thousands of people were employed in Avoca mines over generations. The closure of the mines in the 1980s was a devastating blow for the area. The television programme, "Ballykissangel", generated considerable interest in the area and Avoca Handweavers has created a focus for tourism. The county has more potential to develop its tourism product and the Avoca mine is an area in which this potential is evident.

I ask members of the deputation to describe its experience of dealing with the Department. The impression I have is that two different views prevail on the issue of the Avoca mine. On the one hand, the Department wants to cover up matters while, on the other, the local community wants to preserve and develop this natural resource in the sense that while it is man made, it is very much growing out of the community. I ask the deputation to comment on the conflict between these two perspectives.

With regard to the development of a plan for maintaining the mining heritage of Avoca, has work been done in this regard? I accept it is unfair to ask local community groups to do too much of this kind of work. Given the considerable good work done already, what would be involved in completing the rural landscape project and how would it be resourced?

On the presentation on Silvermines, there is no doubt a photograph speaks a thousand words. The photographs the Gortmore-Silvermines Environmental Action Group showed are devastating and disturbing. The group indicated it had to commission its own scientific analysis on carcinogenic effects, which is worrying. Will it explain what work has been done by the HSE or Department of Health and Children to analyse the impact of the various sites? Has this work been published?

It seems eminently sensible to do stand alone projects. However, only €2 million has been allocated for the Gortmore project. I presume the group would need the full €10.6 million to complete work on that site.

Deputy Michael Lowry

I also welcome the delegations and thank them for their factual, detailed presentations which take account of the history of the various sites. It is 24 years since I first heard the Silvermines issue being discussed. At that time, when former Deputy John Ryan raised the problem on a radio broadcast, the situation in Silvermines was a national scandal. We attempted for years to have decisions made in respect of where responsibility for the clean-up and rehabilitation of the mine should rest. This was an extremely difficult issue.

The issue of Silvermines is a national embarrassment and disgrace. Those who have suffered are the residents of the area who have experienced many false dawns and been given many false promises. There is extreme anger and frustration that what was considered to be a detailed, overall, funded plan is starting to unravel.

I was under the clear impression that when the Government took responsibility for rehabilitation, the plan would be detailed and costed and the project implemented according to a timescale and provided with sufficient funding. This is not the case. North Tipperary County Council, the lead authority in respect of the implementation of the plan, has communicated directly to public representatives that it is not satisfied it has sufficient resources to carry out the works in the manner in which professionals and specialists have advised. The sum of €2 million available this year is inadequate. This should be understood in the context of what has happened at Silvermines, the danger to the environment and health and the utterances by the Government, the Department and agencies that the issue was a matter of public concern that required immediate attention. In that context, it is simply unacceptable and unsatisfactory that the lead authority is saying it cannot proceed in the manner set down some months ago.

It is seven years since there was all-party agreement on how we would proceed and four since we were told the Department was in a position to proceed. The interagency body was then set up and it has a clearly documented path towards final rehabilitation in this area. There appears to be a lack of co-ordination and urgency at this stage and this concerns the locals in that they feel the issue is slipping down the priority agenda. They feel the consequences for them, as residents, are so serious that they must bring the matter to our attention again.

I welcome the deputations. It is sad they are present because it means we are not doing our job. I have been to the site on numerous occasions. Former Ministers were at the site and members of the Joint Committee on Communications, Energy and Natural Resources were there on a number of occasions. Each time we visit we see the horror of what has happened. Effectively the land has been robbed and raped of its minerals and we are left with the consequences of a lack of regulation and control. We face the consequences of people having profited to a massive extent without having considered the future of the mine, the environment and the health of the locals.

I hope that, as a result of today's meeting, we can pressurise the Department and Minister to take action. The Minister has been at the site and has seen for himself the conditions that obtain. I hope the matter will be prioritised again and that the necessary funds will be made available so the work can be carried out as a matter or urgency.

Deputy Simon Coveney

I welcome both deputations. I confess that, before this meeting and the briefing they gave us, I did not know very much about the Avoca mine site. I obviously knew about the history of mining there. Two very different issues arise this morning and we should not even try to link them. The first concerns a heritage project, the purpose of which is to obtain support for turning a history of mining into a positive heritage experience. I congratulate those on rehabilitating parts of the site with heritage in mind. The work on the engine houses is a case in point. It is clear that considerable commitment and time have been devoted to this work at community level. This committee will certainly consider this and determine how it can support the work, where possible.

The other issue concerns a very significant health risk. I have been to the tailings pond, as it is called locally. The photographs before us do not exaggerate at all. The area in question in Tipperary is like a little piece of desert in the middle of some of the most fertile countryside in Ireland. It is almost a spooky place to walk given the colour of the earth and the lack of vegetation. It is clearly alien to any Irish landscape that any of us knows. This is for a good reason because it is essentially poisoned land. Individuals such as John Hogan are literally living a stone's throw from it and this is why their views, which are reflected by local public representatives of all parties, are so strong and why they are so insistent that priority should be given to cleaning it up.

If this committee can refocus the attention of Government officials and, ultimately, the Minister on the issue, it would be desirable. This is a political decision and a question of prioritising funds to protect the health of people living in the area; it is as simple as that. It was a great hurdle to get the State to take responsibility for cleaning up the site. There was considerable celebration in the area when it did so. It was a victory in itself but it needs to be followed through.

The nonsensical approach of having a drip-feed funding programme that patches up pieces of each site in a piecemeal way over a prolonged period is, apart from anything else, more expensive than needs to be the case. Each time one agrees to spend €1 million or €2 million, one must engage consultants to determine how best it can be spent, and then, when more funding becomes available 18 months later, one must begin the process all over again. Bearing in mind health and financial considerations, what is needed is a plan for a comprehensive job, to be carried out now. The cost is approximately €7 million for the Gortmore site. We should be pushing for this very strongly.

I do not want to reiterate all the points made on Gortmore other than to say the problem is real. Most people in this room have visited the site, some of us on more than one occasion. In some ways, it is unfortunate we are hearing two entirely different presentations today because it is hard to focus on both a heritage project and a very significant health concern at the same time. This committee should make very different recommendations in respect of both projects.

Will Mr. Merrigan state whether there are health concerns associated with the Avoca site arising from waste material from mines? As part of the restoration of the site for heritage purposes, I presume there is some clean-up required at certain points of the site where waste material may have been stored. There is an ecological element to this but one must ask whether the community has health concerns.

My views on the Silvermines site are pretty well known.

Senator Alan Kelly

I welcome both groups. As a Tipperary representative, most of my comments will be on Silvermines. The Avoca project represents an interesting proposition for Fáilte Ireland, with which I am very familiar from a product development point of view. It is potentially a new heritage product. Fáilte Ireland is seeking various projects to support under the product development scheme. The east coast and midlands office should take a significant interest. Has the Avoca Mine Heritage Group considered the various heritage promotion possibilities? As a product designed to promote the history of mining in Ireland, it would be a unique seller for the area and certainly contribute to the development of tourism. Will the delegates comment on this? Are there any health issues associated with the site in Avoca? This is a very simple question but requires clarification.

I welcome the delegates from the Gortmore-Silvermines Environmental Action Group, whom I know quite well. While I am not a member of the committee, I am probably the only Member present whose family worked in the mines at Silvermines and family members still live in the area. For those living in the Gortmore area, there are increased health risks. The carcinogenic elements in the air are five times more prevalent than normal.

The Silvermines problem has been ongoing for 24 years. One legacy for which the committee should strive would be to see through completion of the rehabilitation of the Gortmore site. That would be a great achievement for the committee and the Government. I encourage the committee to work with the action group and visit the site, as familiarisation with the problems encountered would be beneficial.

As late as last night, I spoke with county council officials about the matter. Based on scientific analysis of the site, the rehabilitation project will cost between €21 million and €24 million, not the projected figure of €10.6 million. The Gortmore operation must be frontloaded, given its location and immediacy to residential areas. The project is not just about providing for those living there now but protecting the future of the area. For example, Mr. Michael Leamy and his family of four young children live in the vicinity of the site. The committee has heard of the effects of dust blowing from the former mining site. The problem affects this and future generations.

Several issues have arisen with the funding of €10.6 million and the €2 million committed to the Gortmore operation. Scientific analysis estimates the total cost of the project will come to between €7.5 million and €8 million. The more the scientists investigated the site, the more problems they found.

There is also an issue with how the Gortmore project is being managed and the tendering process. Unless adequate funding and a realistic timeline are provided by the Government for the completion of the project, the final result will be insufficient. Drip-feeding funds to meet clean-up costs and inefficient management of the operation will only lead to more expense in the long run which will have to be taken from the overall budget. That will result in less funding for operations in other areas.

A project with a dedicated timeframe and a realistic and ring-fenced budget must be undertaken to ensure the work will be completed. This will allow North Tipperary County Council, the project leader, to seek tenders for a project instead of piecemeal work year on year. Currently, economies are being lost in the project with moneys being divided here and there. Unless the council knows how much it can spend the following year, it will not know how far it can go with the clean-up work. The idea that value for money is not being considered in the project is crazy, particularly as we are playing with people's lives.

All the sites have similar issues but some have unique problems. The projects need to be broken down and based on the tasks required in each individual area. Given that the project has been ongoing for quarter of a century, priorities need to be identified. If the project is not completed, there is a possibility that some individuals could take the litigation road. This is an issue that public representatives need to address.

I ask that the Gortmore project be frontloaded. I also ask the committee to work with the action group, visit the site and address how the project is being managed. We must question departmental officials to ensure the most efficient practices are being adhered to. Most importantly, Government intervention to secure realistic funding over a realistic timeframe is needed. Funding should be increased to between €21 million and €24 million in order to have the Garryard site for the mine waste facility established. In fairness to the people from Silvermines, they have put up with issues the rest of us would not want to put up with.

Deputy Andrew Doyle

I welcome the two groups from Avoca and Silvermines and thank them for their presentations on the worked-out mining sites in their areas. That is where the similarities end. In the case of Avoca, it is more about a heritage and tourist project, while in the case of Silvermines it is a health and safety issue.

What is the Department's role in the Avoca project? Does the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism have a role? Ms Merrigan outlined the heritage aspect to the Avoca mines and their tourism potential. Has the project been costed? If I am not mistaken, the Glendalough mines were owned by the same company involved in the Avoca mines. While County Wicklow has various film trails for tourists, would it be possible to have a mining trail?

On the health issue, some adits were running into the Avoca River. I understand the Eastern Regional Fisheries Board is in the process of carrying out extensive works to rectify this. There were other health issues in the area in the 1980s because of the siting of a landfill rather than the after-effects of mining.

Having family in-laws in the area, I have an insight into the Silvermines problem. If last year the clean-up works were so important that a sum of €10 million was allocated, what has changed this year that €2 million has been received? Nine years ago the Environmental Protection Agency, an arm of the State, identified a perpetual risk to human and animal health in the area but the works have not yet been completed. Someone is not doing his or her job right if this matter keeps coming back to the committee. That the action group has to make the effort to travel to Dublin to bring it to the committee's attention should be enough for the committee to ensure the works are carried out. It makes no sense to drag it out any longer than is necessary. In the context of health and welfare issues, €10 million is small money.

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government (Deputy Máire Hoctor)

I thank the joint committee for giving me the opportunity to voice my support for the Silvermines Environmental Action Group. I also welcome the Avoca group. I am here on behalf of my local group.

The area for rehabilitation we are discussing is about five miles from my home town of Nenagh, and I am more than familiar with the issue that has been going on since 1985 when the mine closed. In August 2005, following much work on behalf of this action group and officials of the then Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources working together in an admirable partnership, the conclusion, with the assistance of SRK consultants, was that funding was needed. The figure given at the time was €10.6 million. To the credit of the then Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, and his officials the proposal was brought to Cabinet. It was the first time in its history that the State would take responsibility and rehabilitate lands mined by private companies. The lands are still in private ownership. From recollection, some €5.5 million out of the €10.6 million was to be designated towards the Gortmore area alone.

The Minister acted in good faith at the time, given the figures that were returned to him by SRK. We now know, however, that the funding required will greatly exceed €10.6 million. I have spoken to the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Eamon Ryan, on this. As Deputy Coveney, who has left us, said, it was a political decision at the time, as it will be again, to secure additional funding for the complete rehabilitation of this entire area. The €10.6 million given at the time was for the rehabilitation of the entire area. Certainly, questions must be asked as regards the advice given then, because that was the figure the Minister was assured would complete the work. Senator Kelly mentioned that as the digging went deeper other problems arose, which were unforeseen at the time. We are now talking about additional funding being sought for the completion of the site works on all of the areas.

When the €10.6 million was allocated it had never been intended that it should be available from day one. It was to be spent over a period of four to five years, if I recall correctly. The funding was to be rolled out as it was needed, which is not unusual for Departments. By the end of the four to five years it was intended that the €10.6 million would be spent. It is most important that the local authority, which is the agent acting on behalf of the Department, communicates, if it has been in a deficit position, with the Department so its officials can work with it, as well as with the Minister, who will have to seek funding for the future rehabilitation of the entire area. This should be done through a partnership approach. It is very important the three groups work together, namely, the Minister, his officials and the county council, which is the agency here.

I should like clarification from Mr. Michael Leamy and the Gortmore-Silvermines deputation. In my discussions with the county council in January-February this year, I was told some €2.2 million was available for this year and there was a carryover of €1 million, which brought the figure in hand to €3.2 million for the works to be carried out. I was told this at the time by the council and I would like to hear the deputation's response. That was the figure I was given at the time and I do not know whether it has changed since. Not to delay matters, I am committed to bringing members of the council group together. I know the director of services involved. The officials always speak highly of this action group, with which they have worked so closely. The sharing of information was always open and transparent. We want this to continue. We also have the support of the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan. People here today were with him when he visited the site a number of years ago, as a member of this committee. We need to get the people together who make the decisions on this and see that the work is carried out.

I have received an assurance from the Department that the funding available is €3.2 million, which includes the unspent €1 million carryover from last year, and that it will be adequate to commence the works that are supposed to start in July this year. If anyone believes clarification is needed as regards what I have said, I would like to hear from him or her.

Chairman

I ask Mrs. Merrigan to respond to the questions specific to Avoca.

Ms Marie Merrigan

As regards what we hope to do with Avoca and how we are proceeding, we have a round table group comprising representatives from Wicklow County Council, Wicklow Rural Partnership, the GSI and several other agencies that are interested in one aspect or other of the mine heritage project. A feasibility study was done by the firm Howley Harrington. We are submitting it for funding, but have not had any luck, as such, with it. Meanwhile, we are just doing remedial works on the old mine buildings, as they become necessary.

As regards our problems with preserving the mine site, the Minister of State with responsibility for the marine gave funding for a study on the Avoca River catchment area, to clean up the river, and possibly restock it with salmon. The economic benefits to the area from an initiative such as this would be superb. CDM consultants, the group doing the study, gave a presentation in April which we attended. That is when we became concerned about preservation of the mine site, because they said they were going to revegetate it. When we asked what that meant, they said the plan was to cover the mine site with a geo-textile membrane, put soil on it and grow grass. One can see the bleak pictures of the Silvermines site without a blade of grass or anything. In our photographs the amount of recolonisation and revegetation around the Avoca mine site can be seen, where grass does not grow naturally, but gorse, furze bushes, heather, lodgepole pine, birch, etc., does. We cannot understand why they want to grow grass there when there is vegetation that will grow naturally. Why not encourage the natural vegetation to grow more quickly, rather than do this?

Somebody asked about health concerns in Avoca. At that presentation I asked a gentleman from CDM whether he had any evidence of health concerns or people's health having been affected by the mine site. He said he had not. We have photographs of west Avoca and the Wicklow County Council reservoir. I am sure that if there was pollution on the mine site, the council would not have located a reservoir there.

There is a need for sensitivity as regards the mine site in any of the projects where trials are being undertaken. That became a very big issue for us. This is the only drystone mineral tramway arch in these islands. In a project in 1996, where they were running trial cloths on growing grass on the mine site, the natural course of the water was diverted down into the drystone mineral tramway arch. We had to have extensive repairs done to it as a result of that type of attitude to the mine site, which is our whole problem. It is not the case that we do not want anything done, but rather that projects should be sensitive to the heritage, which should be recognised. There are many roadways and walkways around the mine site which were used by the people of Avoca. They are public rights of way because they have been used for generations. I have an article by JB Malone on walkways around the country in a 1967 edition of the Evening Herald in which he writes about the walkway through the Avoca mine site. In the last few years different authorities have been putting up barriers on these roadways. Therefore, we are concerned that they are denying people the right to walk on them. It is a public area in State ownership. We would like to see it turned into a public park to enhance the Avoca area. We cannot understand why these barriers are being put up.

Mr. Andy Merrigan

The vegetation is completely different in Silvermines. We visited the area and as we were going in, we looked at each other's hands and said we were not brain surgeons and should be at home milking cows. We do not have the problem created by wind-blow. The three tailings ponds on the Avoca mine site have all been capped since 1982 and there is now vegetation growing there. The spoil heaps contain iron sulfide and set like cement. A mechanical digger would have problems digging up some of them. Last week I cut silage in a field for a cousin of mine, just on the other side of the fence from the mine site. We do not have a problem with animal health. In terms of human health, almost all the elderly people in the Avoca area live near to the mine site, in which there is a lot of sulphur and acid in the water which affects water quality, but it does not affect human health.

Mr. Michael Leamy

Deputy Coonan mentioned other sites. The heritage project is the only one that can go ahead. It started late last year and will be complete in a few months. We are remediating an old mill house on the Silvermines site and a few similar sites. Nothing can go ahead on the remaining five sites until the Garryard project gets the go-ahead. This will be a toxic mine waste site and it will take a couple of years to go through the strict planning procedure. All the other sites will have to wait for the project at that site to get the go-ahead. There are a couple of other small projects involving the fencing off holes that may already be complete. Gortmore is the only site on which there is no hold up.

Deputy Coonan mentioned the role of the health board, as did Deputy McManus. The health board only carried out one study into lead levels in children and adults in the Silvermines area. The only reason it was done was animals had died from lead poisoning. We know from monthly readings that there is a hell of a lot more than lead coming off it. We were very concerned, but the health board would do nothing for us. As we could not make sense of the monthly readings, we got the professor to come and make sense of them for us. That is when we found out about the synergistic effect which frightened the life out of us.

We believe there are cancer clusters in the area. There are three houses near me in which three women had breast cancer within 12 months of one another, even though they were all in their late 40s. One of them has buried her husband since, who also suffered from cancer. There were many neurological disorders in the area, as well as a high incidence of asthma. We believed there was much more to this than lead, but because animals had died from lead poisoning, the health board only tested for this. It did not test for arsenic, cyanide, antimony or any other substance. There is a role for the health board to carry out a study. We believe we have proved there is a basis for such a study.

Until a couple of years ago, farmers within a four mile radius who sent an animal to any factory in the country had their herd numbers marked and the organs of the animals could not be sold for human consumption. Milk from their cows was also tested on a regular basis for lead. I know that contaminants cannot get into the food chain, but, on the other hand, farmers in the area are being unnecessarily stigmatised. All they want to do is to operate on a level playing field with any other farmer in the country.

The Deputy wondered how much would be covered by the €2 million grant. It will not cover much. Deputy Hoctor said €3.2 million was available for the project this year. From this, money went towards the heritage aspect and administration costs. The local authority official told me that there was less than €2 million for the project at Gortmore, but the total cost is €7.6 million. We have been given no commitment about extra funding, nor has the local authority. Local authority officials wrote to the Department with their revised estimates but have heard nothing.

Deputy McManus wondered how much more it would cost to remediate the Gortmore site completely. It would cost €5.5 million at today's prices. During the testing for lead, the HSE advised locals not to use local vegetables. They were advised to wash vegetables thoroughly, but not to use local produce. The HSE also advised farmers not to graze their lands to bare levels, as their animals would ingest lead from the tailings pond.

Ms Margaret Ryan

All waterways had to be fenced off.

Mr. Michael Leamy

That brings us back to what Deputy Coonan said about animals being poisoned by water from the streams. Deputy Hoctor stated that when the Minister announced the €10.6 million scheme, it would be implemented on a phased basis, which is true. It is occurring at Garryard, where the planning procedure has been put in order and to which waste from the other sites will go. However, we were given an assurance that the project at Gortmore would be finished by the summer of 2009, but it still has not been started. We do not know how much will be spent next year. I was told by council officials that they did not know how much they would get next year. They will have to wait until the budget is announced. Their consultants will then estimate how much of the work the money will cover and will then put it out to tender. This is an ongoing process, but there is no accountability. There is much repetition in the work. The same job is costing money over and over again. I believe I have responded to all questions but my colleagues may wish to add something.

Chairman

Unfortunately, we have run out of time. I thank the witnesses for their contributions. We will suspend briefly to allow the next group of delegates to take their places. After that, we will hear from the departmental officials.

Sitting suspended at 11 a.m. and resumed at 11.05 a.m.