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JOINT COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS, MARINE AND NATURAL RESOURCES debate -
Wednesday, 22 Jun 2005

Energy Review: Presentations.

The joint committee will now hear from a number of groups on the matter of bioenergy. I apologise to everyone concerned for the delay but the joint committee was obliged to deal with a number of items in private session first. The witnesses include Mr. Brian Cassidy who is the senior executive engineer of Cork City Council and Mr. Micheál Lyons, manager of the Cork City Energy Agency; Mr. George McCarthy, Mr. Gerard Egan and Mr. Richard Lowe from Coillte; Dr. Eugene Hendrick and Mr. Joe O'Carroll from the National Council for Forest Research and Development, COFORD; Mr. Bernard Rice from Teagasc; Mr. Simon Dick, the managing director of Clearpower Limited; Ms Barbara Maguire, Mr. Fintan Conway, Mr. John Jackson and Mr. Colm McDonnell from the IFA and Mr. Tom Bruton of Bruton Bioenergy.

I propose the following format: the committee will take the witnesses from Cork City Council first and following their presentation there will be a question and answer session; that COFORD and Coillte will appear next and each will make a separate presentation, followed by a joint question and answer session; that Mr. Bernard Rice of Teagasc and Mr. Simon Dick of Clearpower Limited will each make a separate presentation followed by a joint question and answer session and finally that the IFA and Mr. Tom Bruton of Bruton Bioenergy will make a separate presentation, followed by a joint question and answer session. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I welcome Mr. Cassidy and Mr. Micheál Lyons and again apologise for the delay. I wish to draw everyone's attention to the fact that members of this committee have absolute privilege but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. The committee cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it. Further, under the salient rulings of the Chair, members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Does Mr. Cassidy understand that the presentation should last from five to ten minutes after which the committee members will ask some questions?

Mr. Brian Cassidy

I do. Mr. Michael Lyons will begin the presentation with a brief outline of the environmentally-friendly energy incentives undertaken by Cork City Council in the recent past.

Mr. Micheál Lyons

I hope the committee members received the presentation which we sent by e-mail yesterday. Basically, its first two pages provide an idea of Cork City Council's involvement as a local authority in terms of renewable energy, sustainability and environmental issues over the last number of years, especially since 1998. I do not propose to go through the entire presentation. On its first page, items one to nine give an indication of the various projects undertaken by the agency. The committee members will notice that many of them have been part-funded by European Union programmes. They include a combined heat and power plant, solar power, training and the utilisation of landfill gas. The agency is also involved with our own local authority and its stakeholders within Cork City Council and the Munster region as well as with some important nationwide training projects. In addition an old Victorian waterworks is being refurbished. On its completion, instead of simply having a Cork City Energy Agency, an information agency will be located there which will encompass energy, waste and air pollution. In essence, it will serve as a focal point where the public and interested parties can come for impartial practical information on sustainable issues. My colleague Mr. Brian Cassidy will now discuss the project on biofuels, in which I understand the committee is interested today.

Mr. Cassidy

The background to this project is that Cork City Council was anxious to get involved with using an alternative fuel to diesel. The incentive came in mid-2002 with the instigation of the EU part-funded Miracles project and the city council committed itself to running 5% of its fleet on an alternative fuel to diesel. The project began in February 2003 and we selected rapeseed oil for a number of reasons including its compatibility with diesel to which it has similar properties; minimal requirement for alterations to our vehicle fleet and engines and minimal impact on drivers with a single tank system so they would continue to operate more or less as before. In addition it is an Irish-sourced fuel as the crop is grown here and pressed locally in County Wicklow. It is also environmentally friendly as there is no sulphur, nitrous oxides are reduced and it is CO2-neutral.

In May 2003, we modified one of our fuel dispensing units and bought our first delivery of rapeseed oil which cost €1.1525 per litre, including the oil delivery charge, excise and VAT. At the time, diesel cost us approximately 72 cent per litre. By the end of May 2003, we had converted 17 vehicles to run on rapeseed oil. The company supplying the conversion kits selected the vehicles at a cost per unit of approximately €1,500, or €23,000 in total. Initially, we burned approximately 4,000 litres of rapeseed oil per month. That figure fell as winter approached, because of certain difficulties with the fuel and the engine conversions which are now being overcome.

From the perspective of a fleet operator, some issues arise with the use of the fuel. As the members might be aware, rapeseed oil is not available in commercial filling stations and Cork City Council is obliged to have its own dispensing units. The current excise duty requirements mean that suppliers must have their own bonded warehouses. The Revenue Commissioners insist on this point, which took our supplier by surprise. Bulk tankers specialising in the delivery of rapeseed oil are generally not available. They are not difficult to convert but if an operator uses a bulk carrier to delivers fuel to us, it must then be washed out in order for him or her to continue with his or her usual diesel or food product deliveries.

There are also issues with the fuel's viscosity. When the fuel is cold, it is more viscous than diesel and has a greater resistance to flowing which had a number of consequences over the initial winter period. The engines tend to be sluggish, rather like old petrol engines with manual chokes where, if one started the engine without getting the choke setting right, it tended to chug along until it warmed up. We had similar experiences with rapeseed oil over the first winter. This can be overcome with a two-tank system, which involves starting with diesel and then switching over, preheating the fuel, extending the preheating time or increasing the idling speed of the engine when cold. These are all technical issues which we believe can be overcome with experimentation and action.

From the drivers' perspective, some of our vehicles have a side-exhaust, so when they sit in traffic they tend to smell the burned "chipper" oil. For some drivers, it is unpleasant and some prefer the smell of diesel. This is an issue of conditioning, not simply for the drivers, but probably for all of us over time. We have been conditioned to the smell of diesel, whereas we are not used to the smell of burned rapeseed or cooking oil during the day.

There are some issues regarding the future usage of rapeseed oil in Cork City Council. There is a big difference between the current price we pay for rapeseed oil, which, including transport, delivery, excise duty and VAT is €1.31 per litre and the current price for diesel, at 98c per litre. We also have difficulties maintaining our own dispensing facilities. Many fleets, including our own, operate using fuel cards from commercial petrol and diesel filling stations.

The increased cost of diesel is also an issue. When purchasing vehicles, there is a question as to whether a petrol or diesel-powered vehicle should be purchased. At present, petrol is slightly cheaper in many instances than diesel, so from the perspective of fleet renewal, one might prefer to select petrol if one was replacing a vehicle in the not too distant future. That has implications if one subsequently decides to convert to rapeseed oil, as one cannot convert a petrol-engined vehicle to rapeseed oil. In order to reduce the impact of the "chipper oil" smell, the exhaust tail pipes must be at the rear of vans. Consequently, one will be unable to select a vehicle with its tail pipe at the side, if one wishes to keep one's drivers happy. There is an issue with improving the engine's performance when the fuel is cold. However, that is a technical issue which is being worked on.

The Government can provide assistance to increase the usage of rapeseed oil in a number of ways. It should keep the price of diesel below that of petrol so that fleet operators will continue to opt for diesel engines. It should remove or reduce the VAT and excise duty on rapeseed oil, which could be treated as an agricultural product. It should remove or reduce the VRT on passenger cars fitted with rapeseed oil conversion kits to offset the cost of fitting them. This would be similar to the reduction in VRT secured by Toyota for the Prius model.

VAT on commercial vehicles, which can use biofuels or which have been converted to allow usage of biofuels, should be reduced. VRT on commercial vehicles is €40 so one cannot really do much there. As an alternative to those items, grant assistance could be provided to users who convert vehicles to run on rapeseed oil. The Government could promote a training programme among authorised or selected vehicle dealers and repairers so as to provide certified installation of the kit. This would bring the product more into the public eye and more "upmarket", for the want of a better word. FÁS or FETAC could get involved and possibly provide that training. Vehicles which specialise in the delivery of rapeseed oil should be grant aided. Initially, it will not be profitable for suppliers to deliver rapeseed oil only, so they would need some assistance to overcome that. Private and commercial filling stations which may wish to install rapeseed oil storage and dispensing units should be grant aided. Insurance reduction for vehicles burning rapeseed oil should be promoted. It is safer to transport and store rapeseed oil than either petrol or diesel.

We should send our congratulations to Mr. Michael O'Brien who was the forerunner in all of this as senior engineer in Cork City Council. He had to try to convince members like me until I was taken off the council following the abolition of the dual mandate. He was not pushing an open door and had much difficulty with all the energy projects on which he embarked. Mr. Cassidy will be pleased to know the committee intends to travel to Cork in September to do a number of things, including visiting the water works on the Lee Road. We may have the opportunity to see a few other things if it can be arranged. We thank the delegation for travelling to Dublin and for giving this presentation to the committee.

It is interesting to note the committee has just returned from a much publicised trip to Chile and Argentina. In Argentina, we discovered that they are converting soya oil into fuel. In fact, 5% of all vehicles in Argentina are running on this biofuel. Mr. Cassidy might be able to advise the committee the percentage of vehicles in this country which are running on rapeseed oil.

Mr. Cassidy

To our knowledge, very few vehicles are running on rapeseed oil. It is mostly an individual effort by individuals who buy the cooking oil from the shops——

Is Cork City Council the first local authority to use it?

Mr. Cassidy

We are the first in Ireland but not in Europe.

I thank Mr. Cassidy for his presentation. There is nothing like a practical presentation to give information. Those of us who look at these subjects on an ongoing basis will have been helped by the presentation. A couple of issues come to mind which are not easily clarified by the information we have. For instance, how many hectares of rapeseed oil is required to produce 20,000 or 40,000 litres or how many gallons are produced per acre? Mr. Cassidy referred to the cost and that is an important issue. He also referred to other areas which require further attention, including excise duty. I believe all excise duty must be removed before rapeseed oil becomes viable from the point of view of competition.

This is an excellent exercise but the one thing which worries me is the value of the vehicle. If somebody buys an expensive diesel vehicle, not all manufacturers cover a changeover. I notice some difficulty arose in regard to the modification of the vehicles. As an engine enthusiast, I am familiar with that type of development. In a previous incarnation, I was able to build and rebuild an engine in a short time and I can see where a difficulty might arise. To what extent has it been possible to get assurances on that?

In regard to the viscosity, a resolution has been found in respect of the heating part. However, overuse of the glow plugs will result in another problem in that it will burn them within a very short time. I suggest that other means of heating the fuel are considered without having to hang a bucket of fuel over a fire before one starts out in the morning. It presents an obstacle but I suggest that it might be possible to install a heater. The difference in the viscosity in summer and winter is considerable. At a certain level, even ordinary diesel will freeze in the pipes. I regard that as an issue. The other areas are fairly straightforward. Will Mr. Cassidy indicate how many litres are produced per acre? The transport issues could possibly be resolved.

I am amazed at Deputy Durkan's knowledge of mechanics. I thought I was the only Member of the House who had come up through the mechanical ranks. I will have to challenge the Deputy to an engine building competition.

Mr. Cassidy

We have not investigated crop production and the extraction of rapeseed oil. We see it as being beyond the remit of the project. Our project was to take in an alternative fuel and see how it worked. In respect of the cold, our difficulty is that we are in an urban environment. If we started the engines and went on the highway, we would not have the difficulties we are experiencing because the engine would keep running. Our difficulty is that we start the engine and we hit a traffic light 100 yd. down the road, so the engine will go back to a resting position. It will stall at the traffic light, so we must start it again. That is the difficulty we need to overcome. That is why one of the options was extending the heating time on the glow plugs. Our initial aim is to make this driver-friendly and, as the Deputy suggested, there are many solutions.

Has any manufacturer perfected the use of this energy for diesel engines?

Mr. Cassidy

Many, including the company which supplied us with the conversion kits, will say they have and that it is operating. We have not gone to see its set up or to see anybody else's which is something we plan to do in the near future. Our aim was to get this up and running. I suppose in some senses, we are putting the cart before the horse by getting it up and running and seeing how it panned out.

Was any damage done to vehicles?

Mr. Cassidy

No. We installed a heating system on one truck but the driver did not like the smell of the rapeseed oil so we took him off it.

Was the make of vehicle changed on the basis that some vehicles would be more efficient using the biofuel?

Mr. Cassidy

No. We sent the manufacturer a list of our vehicles and told him to select about 20. He came back with a recommendation on 17, that is, three different types of vans amounting to 17 vehicles. He said those 17 vehicles were the ones they would prefer to deal with.

Did it include the Lord Mayor's vehicle or the city manager's vehicle given that they would set an example to the rest of us in the use of biofuel? For example, the British Prime Minister, Tony Blair, recently ordered everyone in his Cabinet to get a Prius. Approximately seven or eight senior Ministers have gotten out of the big Rovers and so on. I asked the Taoiseach to perhaps go down the same route. I commend Mr. Cassidy and Mr. Lyons on this tremendous initiative for which they deserve great credit. They are setting an example, as Cork often does, for the country. Is the leadership of the council setting an example?

Why is rapeseed oil used? Is it because it is a crop that suits our climate and is sustainable? The chair mentioned soya and so on. What were the options in regard to biofuel?

When we prepare our own report on energy and fiscal changes, if we want to encourage everybody to go these routes, clearly some hard decisions will have to be taken in the area of taxation. If Cork City Council was to continue the way it is proceeding in regard to the whole transport fleet what impact would that have on the city's costs? Has anybody had a look at that issue?

I note that Cork City Council has also dipped its toe in the water in regard to solar energy and combined heat and power. Are these one-off pilot schemes or is it intended that in the solar energy front in the glen that this will be a development that will continue and give an example to the construction industry?

Mr. Cassidy

Mr. Lyons will take the question on solar energy as he is better qualified.

Mr. Lyons

We have been approached by the manufacturer of Prius with regard to the Lord Mayor. I believe, and I am not a Corkman, there is an historic relationship with Ford in Cork so the Lord Mayor in Cork drives a Ford. We are still working on it.

Mr. Cassidy

Both the council and the manager are behind us on the project. They have been supportive all the way in regard to conversion and the supply of finance. The council has given us 100% support on the project.

Has Cork City Council made projections on cost if it were more adventurous?

Mr. Cassidy

The issue for us is that we are on a pilot project with the 17 vehicles. Their useful end of life for us will come in January 2007. We go to tender in mid-2006. This will be an issue for all fleet operators if there is an incentive. For us to go to tender in mid-2006 to replace the fleet in 2007 one of the stipulations we are planning is an option for rapeseed oil conversion. Fleet-wide that would cost approximately €2,500-€3,000 per kit, the total cost of which is approximately €0.75million, which is not something that Cork City Council on its own——

Is Mr. Cassidy a mechanical engineer?

Mr. Cassidy

I am.

In Argentina there was no problem with staffing because of the different climates. Does Mr. Cassidy see a future for the development of this type of energy?

Mr. Cassidy

I do. As an alternative to diesel it is a highly pollutant product when it is combusted. In an urban environment anything than can reduce the SO2 and NO2 outputs——

Did Mr. Cassidy examine whether the warranties were covered in all cases?

Mr. Cassidy

No. We deliberately did not look at warranties. We took it as a risk. The way we approached the project was that we were not going to get a warranty. In any soundings we put out to manufactures the warranties were gone. Those vehicles were bought in 2000 and this was early 2003. Warranties were almost up in any case. For the majority of vehicles that one buys the warranty is never touched.

There are warranties now that extend to vehicles that were manufactured——

Mr. Cassidy

We would give preference to them if that was indicated on a return tender. We would probably have to look at whether that is a cost increasing measure on top of the purchase price.

Mr. Cassidy mentioned also the possibility of petrol versus diesel in terms of commercial fleets or ordinary cars.

Mr. Cassidy

For anybody running a fleet of cars, if petrol becomes cheaper than diesel operators may replace its diesel fleet by a petrol fleet.

There are two differences. In terms of miles per gallon, the diesel goes considerably further and in regard to emissions it is possible to clean to a greater extent. Taking into account the developments in the cleaning area and use of after-burners — which, incidentally, were discovered by the Russians during its rocket programme — which are now used to such an extent that it has combatted the position considerably, can that be done in regard to rapeseed oil also? For example, it might be possible to deal with the smell of frying chips.

Mr. Cassidy

That can be overcome by blending eucalyptus oil into it. At this stage we have not figured out how it is blended in. I doubt if one just throws in the rapeseed oil.

To finish on the mechanical side, Mr. Cassidy said there is a definite use for rapeseed oil to be grown for the purpose of natural energy, and that we as a committee should encourage it.

Mr. Cassidy

I believe that.

Deputy Eamon Ryan has a question on the solar project.

Mr. Lyons

Many of these projects have to start as pilot projects. There is no way that Cork City Council or any local authority will rush into something like this with taxpayers' money. After doing the pilot project one will encounter difficulties and surmount them. We hope that solar or geothermal will become the norm. For example, as a local authority we have our own energy strategy and policy so that for every new building and every major refurbishment we ask at the early planning stage whether there is room for water conservation, what is to be done with waste, a traffic management plan, conservation of energy and renewable energy. In the project in the Glen, which is a refurbishment of social housing, 24 will have hot water part of the time through solar panels. We have much geothermal use in Cork because it suits us. In some places wind energy may suit, while in others bio-crops might suit but it is horses for courses. They start off as pilot projects and hopefully they will become mainstream.

We have seen some of those in Cork. Niall Hegarty was an important Cork City architect who promoted the use of solar and other energies for heating homes.

Since we are reading about chip oil smell, I remember following my colleague, Deputy Gormley, when he was first Lord Mayor of Dublin ten years ago and had a bio-fuel fired car. He went around with the golden chain and the smell of chip oil following after him. I never minded the smell, I thought it was quite nice.

I thought he had a bicycle.

He had a bicycle as well but occasionally he had to revert to the bio-fuel car. What happened in Dublin was that Volvo lost the contract to Volkswagen at that time and thereby lost much publicity. If I was with Ford at present I would be very embarrassed at its inability to provide such a car. I would get it on the job quickly. I agree with Deputy Durkan that the practical reality on the ground is the best way of seeing what is happening and what is possible. What I find remarkable is that after 100 years of investment in the petrol system, the distribution system and taking account of the economies of scale and so on, a pilot project — I pay tribute to Cork City Council for taking the lead — has produced vehicles with little of the learning built up over 100 years, no infrastructure, supply chain and none of the support mechanisms but which, in terms of price are remarkably close. I get the incredible sense, if only we built up some of the distribution system, have some of the standard petrol stations and so on, how close we are to making the transition and how close we have to be because we know oil will run out. We will desperately need a replacement fuel if we are to have the transport that we avail of at present.

The pilot project by Cork City Council is remarkably important, similar to that done by Henry Ford 100 years ago when he started off. They made mistakes but they learned. It was expensive at first but it gets cheaper. Does Cork City Council have storage for its other regular diesel and other equipment?

Mr. Cassidy

We have at present but we are phasing it out.

What other options did Cork Council consider? Did it consider the bio-diesel option and mixing it in, 5% or 2% mix or whatever, to the existing fuel? Rather than having to convert vehicles Cork City Council may have bought in a percentage and blended it in to its existing fuel. I note it has got a landfill gas supply. Did the city council consider a bio-gas option for the conversion of the fleet? Why did it decide on plant oil, which required the conversion?

Mr. Cassidy

With regard to mixing fuels, mixing the fuels without conversion is not recommended. I know of people who are doing so, but from a technical point of view it is not recommended.

I understood it was possible to mix a small amount of ethanol or biodiesel.

Mr. Cassidy

Ethanol is for petrol engines to my knowledge.

What about diesel engines?

Mr. Cassidy

For diesel engines the choices are a plant oil or compressed natural gas, CNG. We have no infrastructure for CNG. It would be very costly to put in such infrastructure because of the compression ratios involved.

As the council has its own diesel storage, would it not have considered a blend of regular diesel and biodiesel?

Mr. Cassidy

We would still have to do the conversion. In doing the conversion we wanted to maximise. Over the first two periods we mixed the diesel with the rapeseed oil to see if it would help with the cold starting and the cold running. However, at the moment we are of the opinion that it has not really affected it. On its own it has not improved matters.

Would the biogas alternative have required condensing equipment?

Mr. Cassidy

With compressed natural gas this is the case. The costs of the storage facility are quite considerable because of the nature of the product that is compressed to a very high pressure. As a compressed material it is then subject to all the regulations that go with high-pressure vessels. It is a different type of operation. The rapeseed oil was selected purely because of its simplicity of use and simplicity — as we initially perceived it — for the drivers. We are still of the opinion that it gives simplicity for the drivers.

While I know many more presentations remain to be given, I would like to ask two more questions. Apart from in the dead of the cold winter, how has it performed in terms of pick up, engine speed etc.? The price to the supplier has increased from 56 cent per litre to 62 cent per litre. Does the council have a choice of suppliers or just one? How is the price negotiated in this regard?

Mr. Cassidy

Negotiation would be the wrong word. While I would not say it is a case of "take it or leave it", that is the quoted price. I believe the prices can be checked on a commodities index website. I forget the name of the website. Approximately a year ago we checked a website to compare the price we were paying to that paid on the market and we found that we were paying the same.

Is the oil seed pressed here?

Mr. Cassidy

It is pressed locally in County Wicklow by Eilish Oils Limited.

Would it be more beneficial to have it pressed closer to the point of use to reduce the transport?

Mr. Cassidy

Hopefully it would reduce the cost of delivery to us. A planning application has been lodged for such a unit in Kildorrery in north County Cork

We must consider those matters with the IFA and the other groups.

When a diesel engine stalls, getting it started again can cause considerable frustration. What was the experience in this regard? Was it necessary to bleed the engine? If such an engine stops at traffic lights in the middle of winter what are the practicalities of re-energising it?

Mr. Cassidy

The problem is simply overcome by keeping a foot on the pedal until the engine warms up. Once the engine is warmed up and the fuel has been heated, it operates exactly the same as a diesel engine.

Is it necessary to rev furiously until——

Mr. Cassidy

No, most of them have rev counters at the moment.

When the members of the committee are in Cork we will look at one of those vehicles.

Would it be idling at approximately 1,000 rpm?

Mr. Cassidy

Yes, it should be brought up to approximately 1,200 rpm when waiting at traffic lights.

While we are considering other very important energy projects, we were interested in the mechanical one, as the committee had not dealt with it previously. While some people would argue this should be a transport matter, we are considering energy in its totality. I thank Mr. Cassidy and Mr. Lyons for appearing before the committee today. I wish them success in their endeavours to introduce more renewable fuels and other energy saving projects. Cork City Council is an example for all the other local authorities in the country, which have yet to embark on alternative energy projects.

I welcome Mr. George McCarthy, Mr. Gerard Egan and Mr. Richard Lowe from Coillte along with Dr. Eugene Hendrick, and Mr. JoeO'Carroll from COFORD. I wish to draw attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before it. The committee cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it. Under the salient rulings of the Chair, members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House, or any official by name in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I ask Mr. McCarty to begin.

Would it be acceptable for Dr. Hendrick to start?

Dr. Eugene Hendrick

On behalf of COFORD, I thank the members of the committee for inviting us to speak about renewable energy today. I would like to start by outlining some of the work COFORD does, as members of the committee may not be full aware of its operations. COFORD is an agency of the Department of Agriculture and Food. We are responsible for the research and development policy for the forestry sector. We fund national forest research and we work very closely with other agencies such as Sustainable Energy Ireland in the area of wood biomass and related areas. COFORD has a council appointed by the Minister for Agriculture and Food, which is representative of most of the stakeholders in the forestry sector. The COFORD chairman, Mr. David Nevins, has asked me to say that he fully endorses and supports our submission today.

I would like to speak about wood biomass and why COFORD is very excited about its potential as a fuel. Unlike oil, wood biomass is a fuel of the future and we feel it has a significant future in Ireland. We have a growing and readily available supply of wood in our forests. There are no technical barriers to the use of wood energy as wood chip or wood pellet; the technologies are well proved. The development of this sector offers very significant business opportunities both nationally as well as for local and rural communities. It will make a significant impact on Ireland's compliance with our Kyoto targets on greenhouse gas emissions. It is a win-win solution for energy policy and economic development. Most importantly with the right mix of policies it can be brought on-stream rapidly. I will now hand over to Mr. Joe O'Carroll, the operations manager of COFORD, who is taking the lead on the issue of the national development of wood biomass.

Mr. Joe O’Carroll

Good afternoon. I will start with a brief introduction to the forest industry in Ireland. Approximately 10% of Ireland is covered in forest, which is about 700,000 hectares. The committee members will be aware of this as they previously discussed the strategic plan that is in place to take forest cover up to 17% by 2030. By any measure, the afforestation programme has been quite successful to date, but it still has a significant way to go to meet the Government's target. One of the main aims of this was to take wood production to a scale where we could have a critical mass, become self sustainable and internationally competitive. The main uses of timber in Ireland are for solid wood, construction, fencing, pallets, packaging and so on. It is also used to produce panel board products such as MDF, OSB, chipboard etc. There is also a significant potential to use certain types of biomass from the forest to produce renewable energy and that is what I want to focus on today.

The forests of Ireland produce just under 3 million cu. m of timber per annum, which is 1 cu. m every 11 seconds. In half an hour, the forests of Ireland will have produced enough timber to fill this room. It is a very significant industry by any measure and a very significant resource. By 2015, as a result of historical growth in afforestation, roundwood production will be just short of 5 million cu. m. We are therefore on an upward projection for production potential. The annual contribution the forest industry makes to GNP, quantified by the work of Dr. Bacon, is over €700 million and will increase along the same trajectory as the roundwood production.

For the potential energy generation from this resource, I will only look at the use of biomass over and above existing markets. I am not talking about competing with any existing markets for the panel board sector. We have a very vibrant panel board sector which is a significant exporter of wood products. In Clonmel, the MBF mill exports approximately 85% of its production. What we are talking about today will not impact on existing users of this raw material. As my colleague Dr. Hendrick pointed out, wood energy is a source of renewable energy. It is also sustainable and can be independently certified as being sustainable through Forest Stewardship Council approval. It is recognised as being carbon-neutral under the documents that go along with the Kyoto Protocol. We are only talking about a domestic resource and not about importing a product. It is a very positive story.

We have a resource that is a solid fuel like coal, which can compete with oil and gas. The technology for converting it to energy is proven technology. If one throws a dart at a map of Ireland, there is a one in ten chance of landing in a forest. No matter where one is, wood biomass can be sourced locally. That is a key issue. There is a potential to displace fuel that we are importing from very significant distances overseas. This is a local resource that can enhance our security of fuel supply and it could be supplied by local farmers or forest owners.

There are a number of ways of converting this material to energy, such as electricity or heat. There is also a prospect of converting this to liquid biofuel, but the technology is still some way off. The proven technologies produce electricity in isolation, heat in isolation or combined heat and power. There is one combined heat and power plant running on biomass called Grainger sawmills, which is based in Enniskeane in County Cork. The potential certainly exists to co-fire some of the existing power plants in Ireland. The peat burning power stations are the obvious locations to co-fire, because the fuel is quite similar to milled peat. However, our preference is to use it for heat only. Approximately 40% of our annual energy demand is in the form of heat. We would like to see the market opened up for woodfuel, both in the co-fired sector and the heat-only sector.

We believe that the strongest case for Government incentive in the wood area is to support the installation of wood biomass boilers to help create the market for this material. We have done some work on that already. We feel that if a capital grant scheme was put in place to support the installation of 100 MW of installed capacity in biomass boilers, we would have 500 boilers around the country. The size would be suitable for heating a hotel, as we are not focusing on the domestic level and we want to get the biggest bang for our buck. Another example would be public buildings. Under the new decentralisation programme, all new buildings should put in biomass boilers where the fuel can be sourced locally instead of relying on imported fossil fuels. There is a strong financial argument for that, as well as a strategic argument.

Such a scheme would displace approximately 130,000 tonnes of imported oil, would use some 200,000 tonnes of woodchip and would displace a very significant amount of CO2 emissions. There would be a payback period to the State of four years in terms of reduced CO2 emissions. Therefore, we believe there is a very strong argument for such a scheme to be introduced.

There are two ways to move forward with wood energy. One is to bring about an opening up of the market in the three peat burning stations to allow market access for biomass. The other way is to look at a capital grant scheme that would support the installation of wood biomass boilers in as many as 500 sites around Ireland over the next three to five years. If that did happen, a grant scheme would not need to exist in perpetuity. We feel that a short, well targeted capital grants scheme over a three to five year period would be sufficient to bring about a critical mass, whereby the sector could be self sustaining after that.

What Mr. O'Carroll is suggesting is that all public buildings be future-proofed for biomass or other renewables. We suggested that last year for broadband delivery. Our consultant will keep a note of that issue. I know that we may want to talk to Dr. Hendrick in the future about carbon accounting, but we will not do it today. I know he has done much work in that area.

I thank the Chairman for inviting us to attend today. I propose to give the committee the perspective of Coillte on wood biomass energy. This presentation will look at existing uses of energy in the forest industry, the increasing scale of wood use and the issues arising from that.

We are dealing specifically with what is in the forest and what comes out of the sawmills. We are not talking about construction waste or demolition waste. On a European scale, the diagram shows Ireland's renewable energy targets for 2010 and what we have to achieve. We have moved from a being a society which used coal and peat as domestic fuels to one which uses oil and gas. From a wood biomass perspective, sawdust and chip are used in the wood processing industry. Fuel wood can be used to produce electricity by firing it on its own or co-firing it for combined heat and power or for heat only. COFORD agrees that the advantages of fuel wood are more obvious in the combined heat and power and heat areas. We carried out a joint project with Edenderry Power on co-firing in which our wood chip was mixed with peat, which was found to work quite well in the company's power plant. The issue is economies of scale. While a supply is available, it is not being obtained in a cohesive manner at present.

The sources of wood biomass supply are sawmill residues, small diameter roundwood and forest residues. Coillte's estimate, which does not contradict anything COFORD has said, is that 139,000 cu. m of forest and sawmill residues are available. The supply will rise to 1.139 million cu. m in 2015. 1.384 million cu. m in 2020 and 3.289 million cu. m in 2030, which projections are based on a continued afforestation programme of 15,000 hectares which we believe is feasible in the private sector. Coillte itself is only marginally involved in the expansion of its estate. While we replant and restock any of the areas we clear fell, the greatest volume of future supply for the sawmill industry or energy market will come from the private sector. It is an opportunity I am sure the IFA will address later on. The graph circulated to members outlines the potential residue balance assuming the industry grows with the available supply. As the supply grows, the industry grows. While there is excess capacity, it is not currently exploited. Our assumptions are based on the current rate of achievement in the programme of 15,000 hectares per annum. The Government strategy target is 20,000 hectares per annum. The figures relate to the island of Ireland not just the republic. In Europe, especially Finland and Sweden, potential and actual production depend on when private landowners want or do not want to harvest timber. It does not come on stream on an annual basis at a regular rate.

Of sawmill residue, 70% is wood chip, which product is supplied to the processing sector. In our sawmill's case it goes to Warehouser in Clonmel, Masonite in Carrick-on-Shannon and, to a lesser degree, Finsa in Scarriff. Bark is supplied to the horticultural business or for panel boards or boiler fuel while sawdust is sold to processing plants or exported. Residue availability is affected by simple economics and price. Many mills have agreements with processing plants to supply clean chip. Many mills are considering the development of their own combined heat and power plants or wood pellet projects. The prices products from the sawmill get ex-yard are as follows; chips, €23 per wet tonne; sawdust, €7 per wet tonne and bark, €14 per wet tonne.

Forest residues are produced where we thin or clear fell an area and have what we call the "lop and top". This refers to the branches and tops of trees which are below merchantable material standards as well as broken bits and pieces. There is potential to produce 150,000 cu. m of wet, green fuel wood in this process. The current paying capability for energy is approximately €25 while the cost of harvesting and transporting residue is between €30 and €35 per cu. m. It is in this area that there is a technology gap. If one is simply felling for fuel wood, one must fell a tree, leave it in place for up to a year and then bring in technology to chip it. It is a long process as the wood must be permitted to dry to approximately 20 to 25 degrees of moisture. The other issue with residue supply involves the removal of "lop and top" which degrades a site from a future crop point of view. While there is potential in this area, a balance must be struck. One cannot take away all of the lop-and-top material if one is to avoid having to introduce other fertilizers to promote the crop. There is also the issue of extraction.

I turn now to the potential of private forests. It is estimated that there are 290,000 hectares of young plantation in Ireland, which has the potential to constitute a significant source of energy. The cost of harvesting and chipping, however, is excessive, which is where the issue of technology comes in. At issue is whether to provide a subsidy for harvesting and processing or to support production with capital grants which provide institutions with funding to develop capacity. While there is no doubt that opportunity exists, something is needed to generate usage, which is not to say this is a chicken and egg scenario.

There is a lack of tradition of using wood in Ireland. In Austria, logs are cut every year to a certain length and stacked outside houses for use and 80% of wood biomass is used for domestic heating. There is no market in Ireland for district heating as there is in other countries nor are there market support mechanisms to offset capital cost. Coillte considers these to be issues which must be addressed if we want to encourage the use of wood as an alternative source of energy. The volume of available wood over and above current demand is limited but that would change if there were incentives. One would get people bringing in technology to utilise it.

Wood has the potential to contribute to the national energy requirements according as the current plantations develop and if the Government strategy on forestry continues; in other words, if there is Government support for a continuation of the effort to reach the target of 20,000 hectares. As Mr. Hendrick and Mr.O'Carroll stated, there are other benefits. Wood is carbon neutral and can be replaced.

There are 12,000 forest owners. In Europe where there is no market a farmer will not harvest his timber. There is a need to create that market, whether it is for energy purposes or to encourage farmers to utilise the thinnings and manage their crops in the long term.

Wood biomass cannot compete economically with fossil fuels at current oil and gas prices but that is changing. If oil goes to €60 or €70 a barrel then one would certainly be looking at wood as an alternative. It is important that whatever incentive is put in place we do not distort the sector, in so far as there is a good balance at present. We supply some 80% of the product going into the processing industry. If one were to put large subsidies behind energy then the supply to the panel board mills could be at risk. We can keep everything in balance if we take a longer-term view of the development of the energy market. In countries like Finland where the energy aspect kicks in, it is at the end of the chain. It has the lowest paying capability of any product along the value chain.

In the immediate term, the commercial development of wood directly from the forest is limited. One could say there is 250,000 thousand tonnes of residue available, that is scattered all over the country. The average size of a clear fell is about 8 to 10 hectares. One would get approximately 150 tonnes off each site. One has all the attendant logistical problems of getting it from A to B to C and getting into a form where it is of value. However, it still presents an opportunity. If the market is there, it will be driven differently. The combined heat and power option is best where the sawmill brings in the log and gets sawn timber and residues. The latter can be used to heat a plant, make pellets or whatever.

We are heating our new headquarters in Newtownmountkennedy with pellets. Balcas, which is located on the Border in Enniskillen is one of our major customers, and it has developed a pellet making plant. In Cork, South Western Services, SWS, has a combined heat and power plant at Graingers sawmill. Developments are taking place in this sector but the big issue is how to generate interest in it. In the medium to long term there are opportunities.

I thank Mr. McCarthy for his informative presentation.

I thank Mr. O'Carroll for his presentation. He stated there was a four-year payback on these medium, industrial, office or hotel boilers. On what CO2 price per tonne is that estimate based? What is the current price on the European market for CO2?

Mr. O’Carroll

The figure I quoted for the four-year payback was based on €17 per tonne but the cost is now €20 per tonne and rising. The price was less than €10 per tonne in January so it has risen fairly dramatically and faster than most experts were predicting.

I stop smiling every time I hear that because it is not good news for some people I know. Mr. O'Carroll stated that to avail of capital grant support he wants to concentrate on 100 MW of capacity. Why is he so conservative? Why is there such a remarkably short payback? Are we not applying that on domestic wood chip and the whole range of different capital grants where nationally, if the CO2 reductions are similar, it would give us a reduction we need because we will be paying nationally for carbon? It would develop an industry here with jobs and substitute for imported fuel. How could the State lose by investing in kick-starting such technologies in more than just 100 MW installations? Why are we being so conservative?

Mr. O’Carroll

In the immediate short term, there will be a constraint on the amount of material available, certainly over the next three to five years. The volume of available material will increase and there is also the possibility to look at short-rotation coppice to further increase the amount of biomass available. The choice of 100 MW is based on using approximately 300,000 tonnes of wood chip. We believe that is what is realistically available in the short term. The 100 MW limit is really constrained by the raw material. I totally accept Deputy Ryan's point. We should be aiming for much larger amounts of renewable energy from biomass in the medium to long term.

When we were looking at the issue of waste in Dublin city there was a significant volume of construction and demolition waste and there was also a significant amount of waste wood, including pallets. Do Mr. O'Carroll's figures include that type of material as a possible source?

Mr. O’Carroll

They do. There are some segregation issues around the potential contamination of waste wood that must be addressed. I have only factored in the clean percentage of that construction and demolition waste.

Wind is one source of renewable energy electricity generation supplies, but as it is variable we need a backup renewable which would provide a base-load power plant. Coillte has stated that gasification, CHP options such as small-scale gasification from pellet to gas to a small turbine and a combined heat output is possible. Why is this not being pushed, given the technology that has been developed in Austria and elsewhere?

Mr. O’Carroll

Combined heat and power is an option and we would not discourage people from doing that. In terms of electricity I mentioned there is the potential to co-fire the existing peat burning stations which would not involve capital expenditure. We could do that in the morning if certain other issues were addressed. We are not being negative about the potential to produce electricity but we believe small-scale, localised, heat-only operations are the most efficient in terms of energy generation efficiency. Another important factor is that the material can be sourced locally. If one goes for larger installations, one is looking at drawing biomass over a greater distance. I hope that answers Deputy Ryan's question.

I have a few questions for Coillte. How can Austria provide 80% of its heat capacity from wood pellet? I would not imagine it is a case of people stocking logs outside their doors. Are they doing lop and top of their forests or do they use residues for such wood pellet production? How are they getting over the transport cost issue?

The nature of Austrian forestry is slightly different. It is basically privately owned by farmers who own their own wood lots. It is a cultural thing. They harvest enough timber to heat their houses on an annual basis. They cut it into 2.5 foot lengths, split it and dry it.

That is similar to what is done to turf in this country.

Yes. It is a cultural practice.

Austria has a significant manufacturing industry and a need for electricity for both industry and urban domestic use. How are these markets being supplied?

Through the chain. The industrial market would be supplied through residues from the saw-milling sector or other processing sectors. They have a considerable resource.

On the new plantations that are being sown, is Coillte favouring locations that are easily accessed to reduce the transportation cost of residues? Why does the residue estimate for this year amount to zero given that there must be a significant amount of lopping and topping taking place. In Edenderry, for example, is the main problem with co-firing the fact that Bord na Móna has contracts with peat suppliers? Can this be changed? Perhaps the representatives of COFORD can answer the question?

We are no longer in the business of expanding plantations, except on a very marginal scale.

Does Coillte regulate the grant system?

No. What was the Deputy's second question?

How is it there are no residues at present?

We were examining whether there was a market for residues in 2005 and whether we had any harvested. The answer is no. There are sites from which one could take some lop and top at present if there were a market for it.

Are wood pellets not being exported by companies such as Balcas? Wood is cheaper than oil at present.

Balcas has just entered the market with its wood pellets. It is using clean chip to produce wood pellets. It is a domestic product rather than a commercial one.

Even woodchip for heating is cheaper than oil at present.

I was trying to say that it is a chicken and egg scenario. How do we create the market? As Joe O'Carroll and Dr. Eugene Hendrick were saying, if local authorities or the OPW committed to having wood biomass boilers or burners, it would be a start.

If there were a market, what would the figure be for residues?

Is the Deputy talking about forest residues?

My estimate is that there would probably be 150,000 green tonnes per year.

Is there a problem with Bord na Móna's contracts with peat suppliers in Edenderry?

The project in Edenderry worked. Perhaps Mr. Richard Lowe will elaborate on it.

Mr. Richard Lowe

I was involved with the project in Edenderry. We supplied pulp wood which we chipped on site. The sawmills worked with us supplying sawdust. As the Deputy will be aware, sawdust is constituted very similarly to peat and works in the system very easily. The chips were new to the power plant and the authorities were afraid it would not work out. However, the plant had a Finnish production manager who had worked in Finnish peat-burning stations. He had encountered chips before and the trial proceeded very successfully. Therefore, there is potential for co-firing. There are other benefits pertaining to sulphur.

Can contractual problems prevent the scheme from operating?

Mr. Lowe

There is a contract.

I thank the delegates for their comprehensive submission. It was very interesting. I have been waiting for years to have this kind of conversation but the Chairman will be glad to know I will not speak for too long.

Within the industry, co-firing is probably regarded as the most economically viable method or production, notwithstanding the lack of continued supply or doubts thereon. What is the position on the development of prototype willows, which have a ready market and which can be harvested regularly?

The delegates referred to 15 tonnes of residue per acre.

There are 50 tonnes of residue per hectare on the forest.

I calculated that the yield for a new forest would be approximately 15 tonnes per acre.

No. A new forest would be thinned every five years. Depending on the production capacity of the individual site, one would get approximately 50 tonnes of product every five years, which goes towards energy or pulpwood.

The degree to which it can be extracted by intensive labour or by mechanical means also has a bearing on its viability.

A number of experiments are taking place on willow, which, when harvested, is dried, reduced and chipped. It appears to present a worthwhile prospect. I do not yet know the extent to which this is the case.

In the power station in Allenwood, which was demolished many years ago, co-firing was tried. Interestingly, that power station had developed a method of carbon extraction. It was undertaken by a firm called Irish Ceca, which exported the carbon. It was quite possible to eliminate carbon emissions completely from the plant. Have the delegates evaluated whether this system could be used at other plants to reduce carbon emissions?

I am familiar with the European concept of harvesting and storing wood, which is used as a fence to block the wind in the winter. This would be a very useful practice in this country. Over the years, I have argued that we need more forestry of an evergreen nature to provide shelter in the winter. We do not have much shelter in this country. By comparison with the other countries the delegates mentioned, we have no shelter; the wind would blow one all over the place. Five or ten miles from Loop Head, for example, the few trees in the area are bending over. I was born in the west where there were virtually no trees on high ground. They were blown away and the remaining ones were all bent over. I am strongly of the opinion that there is a need for careful and strategic planting of shelter-providing trees, from which wood could also be harvested. I will refer to this again at another time. Some trees are much better at trapping carbon dioxide than others. Will the delegates refer to this?

On the use of co-firing in the domestic market, I do not understand why the average household could not use a burner in conjunction with oil or some other source such that, in the event of there being a difficulty with one source, one could revert to the other. For example, I have a system at home that allows me to burn solid fuel and oil or gas at the same time. It is a bit more expensive to install but it can be done.

The delegation referred to commercial viability quite often. Having had occasion to read up on this recently, I believe it is the main issue. The point made by Deputy Eamon Ryan on the availability of alternative fuels and how their price compares with that of oil is good. They may not be so viable at present but when the price of oil reaches $60 or $70 per barrel, the scene will change. I have considered this issue and tried to work out a solution. I worry about the oil companies in this regard. In the 1970s, some houses were built with no chimneys because everyone thought there would be sufficient oil and gas to provide heat in the future. In the late 1970s this policy had to be reviewed and grants provided for households, in one part of the country in particular, to ensure provision was made for the burning of solid fuel. To what extent can the unpredictability of the oil companies which are having a field day be visualised? The further oil prices go up the happier they are. Is it possible to make them unhappy?

My last point is about the economics of the use of burners in domestic dwellings. How will this develop?

I remind my party colleague, Deputy Durkan, that oil now costs €60 a barrel.

I have a question for Mr. McCarthy. In any forest around the country, whether owned by Coillte or otherwise, one will find a great many logs, heavily knotted together, in which the sawmills are obviously not interested. They may have been lying there for years. Are they included in the equation when quantifying amounts or are they classified as thinnings? In the past week I have spoken to a person who wants to approach Coillte to purchase such logs because he wants to make wood briquettes. He has shown me several photographs of such material which has been lying on the ground for a long time. Will Mr. McCarthy please comment on this?

Members of the delegation may share questions between them. For the sake of clarification, will someone indicate which is the best thinnings programme? Is it the first, second or third or a combination? Which gives the best yield?

Reference was made to the management of extraction and infrastructure. I presume this concerns the provision of roads in order that extraction may be managed. Should we return to a system of ringfencing and guaranteeing investment for private growers of timber if we are serious about using this product as a source of energy?

Mr. O’Carroll

I will attempt to group some of the issues together.

In the normal management regime for a typical coniferous forest we are looking at a rotation of 40 years. One will thin the forest for the first time within 15 or 20 years, removing about 50 cu. m. of material, generally small in diameter, which is currently used only in the panel board sector and which is ideal for energy generation. Coillte has contractual arrangements in place with the sector. It owns about 50% of the country's forests. The other 50% have largely been planted in the past 15 years and are now reaching first thinning stage. They are owned by small forest owners and farm foresters. Units are typically around eight heactares in size. It is the market for the first thinnings of these plantations that we are trying to stimulate through the promotion of wood energy, while allowing Coillte to continue to supply very large volumes of material to the panel board sector.

With regard to concerns about security of supply, the forestry sector has always got its act together anytime there has been an indication that the market will develop. The volumes about which we are talking are relatively small. One Clonmel based centre uses 650,000 tonnes of material per annum. The ESB uses a similar tonnage. Therefore, the volumes about which we are talking will not significantly stretch the sector. There is a learning curve but I am confident the required level can be achieved. As all of the necessary harvesting technology is availble, we honestly do not see security of supply being an issue.

The price of wood biomass is competitive. At about €50 a tonne, including delivery, the price is less than half that of oil. The difficulty lies in the upfront capital cost of a wood biomass boiler as opposed to an oil boiler. The difference is largely due to economies of scale. Oil burner manufacturers have a significant lead but we are trying to make up ground. That is why we are suggesting the introduction of a short-term capital grants scheme over the next five years to stimulate market demand.

In response to Deputy Durkan the willow certainly has potential. In getting all our ducks in the appropriate order we want to see market pull for the resource before we go about increasing it. The aim of the first Government intervention should be to create a market and ensure the necessary boiler numbers. Then, by all means, in future interventions one could look at supporting short rotation copses or the willow plantations to which the Deputy referred. I hope I have touched on most of the issues raised.

What about domestic wood burners?

Mr. O’Carroll

The price of wood biomass compared to oil or gas tends to be more competitive the larger the scale. The capital cost of installing a wood biomass system in a domestic dwelling is significantly greater than either the cost of an oil or gas system and the payback period is much longer. One of the reasons for this is that in a domestic dwelling heat is not generated all year round. We are, therefore, looking at hotels, hospitals and other sites where there is a demand for heat throughout the year. That is why we suggest such premises should be given priority over domestic dwellings. For domestic users there is a very big gap to bridge.

Is there a difference in terms of efficiency between a wood burner and burning logs in a fireplace? What are the comparisons, given that different types of wood generate significantly different levels of heat?

Mr. O’Carroll

In the case of an open fire, the energy efficiency rating is 10% to 15%. For any of the modern boilers, the figure is in excess of 80%. Modern wood biomass boilers are even more advanced than conventional oil and gas boilers which are being installed in 90% of the housing stock. This has been clearly demonstrated through their installation in Coillte headquarters as referred to by Mr. McCarthy.

Is there any difference in terms of efficiency in a wood burner between, say, an ash tree and a sycamore, oak or conifer which does not burn as quick?

I am struck by the Deputy's knowledge of trees. I am amazed and delighted. He has hidden talents.

I am sorry.

Should we have a fixed feed-in pricing system for the provision of wood pellets or supplies? I take the point that conversion should take place in large industries, given that capital costs would be relatively low. Given the review of the Kyoto Protocol in 2012, the proposed 60% or 70% reduction in CO2 emissions and that the price of oil is €60 a barrel and rising, why should we wait another day before throwing the kitchen sink at this issue?

Mr. O’Carroll

All we can do is make suggestions. It is not up to COFORD to make the final decisions. However, above all other organisations, we have been heavily championing this cause in recent years. We strongly favour the introduction of support mechanisms. We have looked at those areas where the best return can be achieved for the Exchequer. This can be achieved by introducing a targeted capital grants scheme for the installations to which we have referred, largely because there is a year round demand for heat which will yield the maximum return per euro in terms of the energy to be generated.

What Deputy Ryan said about providing support in producing the raw material is one way of looking at the issue. The Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources has already made an announcement about a feed-in price for the provision of electricity derived from biomass.

I do not know whether Dr. Hendrick has anything to say but we have to finish this session as there are others waiting and I am watching the time. We must vacate the room by a certain time. Some Opposition members must also go and attack the Government. I have to ensure they will be out on time to allow them to do so.

I am awaiting an answer on energy conversion.

I know that. I will come back to Mr. O'Carroll. Dr. Hendrick indicated he wished to make one further important point.

Dr. Hendrick

With regard to the supply of raw materials in Austria, it is important to point out that the wood pellet market has taken off there in the past decade. Compared to a decade ago the amount of pellets being used in Austria is unbelievable. They have become one of the main fuels, particularly in the domestic sector.

How many jobs does the wood pellet industry support in Austria?

Dr. Hendrick

I do not know but presume it is significant, given the scale of use.

Mr. Lowe

With regard to Senator Finucane's question about large knotty trees, Coillte is always interested in new business propositions. If the Senator provides me with details of any individual he may have in mind, I will contact him or her afterwards. It is interesting that the Senator raised this issue because last year we co-operated with a new customer in using large, heavy knot logs for making shavings for horses. We constantly seek new opportunities for these materials. We would, therefore, be interested in this area.

While people may believe some trees have been left behind in forests, they have a valuable purpose in nature conservation, for example, in terms of insects and birds. Every part of the forest is well utilised.

The Chairman and members of the joint committee are welcome to visit our demonstration wood burning facility in Newtownmountkennedy. Supported by Sustainable Energy Ireland, it heats an area of 22,000 sq. ft. with wood pellets.

Where is the facility?

Mr. Lowe

Newtownmountkennedy, near Bray.

Perhaps we will invite all the members of the press who were so anxious to follow us to Chile and Argentina to join us. If there are no further questions, the consultant assisting the joint committee on the energy module will contact Coillte. Alternatively, Mr. O'Carroll or one of his colleagues may send additional information to our consultant.

Mr. O’Carroll

On the final point, there is no significant difference in the calorific value across species. The most important variable to measure and control is moisture content. However, where moisture content is similar, there is no significant difference in calorific value between hard and soft woods, although the value is slightly higher in the former.

There is a major difference. For instance, if one were to put on a fire wood from a sycamore, oak or Lombardy poplar, a tree widely grown in Austria because it achieves rapid growth, the fire would go out. However, ash, even green ash, will ignite immediately because its firing rate is much higher. There must be some difference, of which I am not aware, in the conversion from soft wet woods to a burning material.

Mr. O’Carroll

In terms of calorific value, the difference is marginal. Perhaps other factors related to tannins and so on come into play.

I refer to the process of drying out the wood.

Mr. O’Carroll

When moisture content is equivalent, there is no significant difference.

Converting a tonne of green wet wood to oven dry wood results in reduction to about 40%.

I thank the delegation for appearing before the joint committee. It is deeply appreciated. We may wish to discuss another issue with Dr. Hendrick. We will suspend before taking the other four presentations together, followed by questions and answers. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Sitting suspended at 5.25 p.m. and resumed at 5.30 p.m.

I welcome Mr. Bernard Rice from Teagasc; Mr. Simon Dick, managing director of Clearpower Limited; Ms Barbara Maguire, Mr. Fintan Conway, Mr. John Jackson and Mr. Colm McDonald from the IFA and Mr. Tom Bruton of Bruton Bioenergy.

I represent the Irish Bioenergy Association.

I apologise to the delegates for keeping them waiting for so long. I draw their attention and that of members to the fact that while members of the joint committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee which cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it. Furthermore, under the salient rulings of the Chair, members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

We have read the presentations the delegates sent in advance of the meeting.

Mr. Bernard Rice

I will start by answering some of the questions asked earlier. It should be possible to get 5,000 miles per acre of rapeseed, roughly 100 gallons at 50 miles to the gallon.

Five thousand miles per acre.

Mr. Rice

Yes.

I am convinced.

Mr. Rice

There is no reason a fleet could not be run on a 5% mix of biodiesel and ordinary diesel with no modification of engines and without compromising warranties as long as the biodiesel was produced to EU standards. The warranties would stand because the fuel complies with EN590, the mineral diesel specification at that level. If the figure exceeds 5%, it becomes an issue.

There was a reference to miscanthus. There has been a development in Britain, although it is in an experimental phase here. In County Limerick one farmer is growing 20 acres. It is viable after three years. Many call it elephant grass. Is it feasible? I have received inquiries from a man who believes he is getting very little information from any source on it.

Mr. Rice

It is one of the energy crops that has potential. It fits into the same category as willows. It is a perennial crop that takes two or three years and some expense to establish. There is then a return every year with very little expense. As it would cost €2,500 per hectare to establish, assistance would be necessary.

Is there an establishment grant?

Mr. Rice

No. There was confusion earlier. Biodiesel is processed oil which has had the viscosity removed in order that it will run in almost any engine whereas vegetable oil, still being viscous, requires engine modification or blending at a low level in mineral diesel before it is acceptable as fuel.

The transport biofuels directive, particularly the preamble to it, sets out where we are going with transport fuels in the next 20 years, what we will use when we must replace petrol and diesel and the role biofuels will play. A target has been set for a 23% substitution of petrol and diesel by other fuels by 2020; the three picked out were biofuels, natural gas and hydrogen.

The 8% target for biofuels can be translated into hectares of crop production. It would take between 12,000 and 40,000 hectares of biofuels to achieve 1% substitution. Therefore, we are talking about between 100,000 and 300,000 hectares, which is significant in Irish terms, as the IFA would agree. On a day when we are concerned about 30,000 hectares of beet, here is potential for hundreds of thousands of hectares of a crop for which there is a definite market. It must be considered seriously in the long term.

The directive sets out targets and requires countries to report on progress annually. The first progress report of the Irish Government set out proposals for excise relief on 6 million litres of vegetable oil which would be useful in getting five or six small projects off the ground. The remaining excise relief proposed for 1 million litres of biodiesel and 1 million litres of bioethanol, however, is meaningless. One viable plant would need 40 times that amount. A total of 250 hectares of beet would produce the necessary 1 million litres of bioethanol. Therefore, it is of no significance. Something must be done before we get into bioethanol production on any worthwhile scale.

There will always be the problem that biofuels will be that bit dearer than their mineral equivalents. Projects that are likely to take off in the next few years will involve a cheap feedstock, enjoy market support such as excise relief or have an alternative revenue stream within them.

In my submission I have listed biofuel projects, solid and liquid, that could be considered. I will deal with four of them: vegetable oil, ethanol, straw and willow. There are small projects producing vegetable oil and running modified engines on it. There are at least three groups working on substantial projects with biodiesel. Some are saying that if they do not get excise relief, they will make the fuel and export it. If the Government goes to Brussels in two years and says it cannot produce any more liquid biofuels and achieve its targets, while at the same time someone is producing and exporting it, it could be embarrassing.

Where are the projects located?

Mr. Rice

One group which includes a renderer, people involved in waste oil collection and a farming co-operative in County Wexford is seeking planning permission in New Ross. Another is located in Kildorrery in north County Cork while a third group of renderers is looking at a tallow project in the mid-west.

As we do not have the names of the companies involved, will Mr. Rice send them to the clerk to the committee?

Mr. Rice

I will.

Vegetable oil can be used in modified engines. Projects in this area are going well. Biofuel can be produced not only from rapeseed oil but also from recovered vegetable oils collected from the catering industry as well as beef tallow from the rendering industry. Beef tallow is an interesting item because approximately 40,000 tonnes is used as heating fuel within the rendering industry. However, this will be banned because tallow has been reclassified as a waste material. The temperatures in the boilers in which it is used are not sufficient. It will, therefore, be phased out and become a waste product again if an alternative use is not found for it. Biodiesel is the one possible use I can see.

In the submission to the joint committee I include details of the cost of biodiesel and vegetable oil. They need full excise relief to be economically viable. Since I compiled those details, the price of diesel has increased and the economics will have improved somewhat. However, they still need full excise relief to be viable.

Ethanol is a topical subject with the debate centred on the future of sugar beet-growing. If we want to get an ethanol industry off the ground, either wheat or sugar beet must be used. Ethanol can be used in a 5% blend with petrol. At a reasonable scale, such processing would be just about viable. However, it must be done on a large scale. To achieve our 2% substitution target, the first step on the transport biofuels directive ladder, we will need approximately 30,000 hectares of sugar beet or approximately 40,000 hectares of wheat to be grown. It would also need full excise relief and a substantial investor per motor interest. For whatever reason, while people are queuing up to get into the biodiesel business, it has been more difficult to create an interest in ethanol use. If the excise relief issue was clarified, it would be a big help. As of now, there are few people examining ethanol production.

Much has been said about wood residues. Straw is now becoming a waste product. Ireland produces approximately 1 million tonnes of straw per year. The animal industry that uses most of that straw is now taking less. The mushroom-growing industry is also tending to take less. As a selling product, a farmer will not receive much for straw. Given that grain growers are already in difficulty with grain prices, another outlet for straw is badly needed. I hope that as the wood industry develops in terms of wood fuel use, straw will be able to piggyback on it. However, it is not as good a material as wood to burn. Such matters as the use of straw pellets in boilers must be examined in coming years as we must find an energy outlet for straw.

Apart from using willow trees as a biofuel, the growing site can be used also as a disposal site for certain effluents that cannot be disposed of on grassland or feed or food crops. In the north sewage sludge from municipal authorities is being tested. In the south several projects use brewery effluents on willows. These effluents have a low nutrient content but a high biochemical oxygen demand, BOD, and, therefore, can be classified as pollutants. This is one method of disposing of it. A gate fee is given to the willow producer to help make the overall project viable as it is still difficult to make growing willows for fuel financially viable.

I have a deep interest in this issue. I hope the joint committee's contribution will help in some way.

Mr. Rice

It would be a great help if the Government gave us a statement of intent. While Government initiatives have been taken, we appreciate excise relief is important as well as establishment grants for boilers and energy crops. However, if they only come in dribs and drabs from different Departments, they will not make a great impact. A statement from the Government outlining the direction of biofuel development and the steps that will be taken will bring clarification and give those involved greater confidence. There is much uncertainty among farmers and others involved in the industry. I am not sure what the future holds for them.

I thank Mr. Rice for his presentation. Committee members will have a similar view on some of the issues he raised.

Mr. Simon Dick

The three items I wish to cover are the emerging biomass industry, specifically the opportunities for wood energy in Ireland, and what the State can do to support early growth. I am probably alone in that I am approaching the issue from a private limited company's perspective. Clearpower is involved in the industry and I will be able to comment at first hand on the points raised by the previous speaker.

We install heating systems, supply wood fuels and recycle organic waste nutrients through the energy crops we have established. We are generating a business sector in this newly emerging market. It is beginning to happen, presenting great opportunities for the country. As we are copying much of what has happened in other countries, we are not reinventing the wheel, meaning it is a low risk venture. The growing climate Ireland enjoys for ten months of the year versus six to eight months in the rest of Europe gives us a great opportunity.

We are also exporting fuels. A point was raised about the Balcas project. It exports 98% of its pellets, of which it produces 50,000 tonnes every year. The ethanol projects have had first hand experience with the biodiesel projects. Those involved are talking about using Ireland as a growing base and exporting from it.

Fossil fuel substitution is what people are talking about now. It is gathering momentum. Recently there have been significant fossil fuel price increases and ongoing volatility in the market. Previously, when renewables were examined, they were only seen as a cross to bear, an extra cost on industry. Now, with oil costing $60 a barrel, one can see how volatile the market has become. Governments, the people and companies are becoming concerned about security of supply. Ireland imports 90% of its energy requirements in the form of fossil fuels. If we remain reliant on volatile and expensive imports, competitiveness issues will emerge. Coupled with the market driver, there is legal pressure from the European Union with targets and directives to increase the share of renewable energy sources. There has been the RES-E directive. Next year there will probably be an RES-H heat and cooling directive to increase share. There are building directives exerting legal pressure in that area and there are also the Kyoto obligations to reduce carbon emissions.

As soon as one mentions renewable energy in Ireland people think of electricity and windfarms. Electricity is an important part of the overall solution but it is only minor compared to heating and transport. Heating represents 40% of our primary energy requirement, engine fuel for transport represents 35% and electricity 25%. If we are to focus on wind it needs to be on large areas.

Ireland imports 90% of its requirements in the form of fossil fuels, which amounted to €7 billion in 2003 — €2.4 billion of that is for heating. It is a significant market. The biomass carbon-neutral fuel is growing in share across Europe. It solves the security of supply issues, it is homegrown and can be controlled as it does not have to go through multiple hands. It is on demand unlike some other renewables where one has to wait for the sun to shine or the wind to blow. This is like a fuel in the sense that it is there and one can turn it on and off. The conversion technology is well advanced and the economics well proven. There is nothing new here.

Wood represents 90% of biomass. Worldwide, in terms of land-based biomass wood is approximately 90%. Chips and pellets are now commercially attractive in the heating market. There has been some confusion here about conversion efficiencies for power and heat. In a power station like Edenderry Power the energy from the wood resource is converted into power at approximately 30% efficiency. Modern wood boilers such as the one the joint committee will see on the screen are high-tech, fully automated, have low emissions and require low maintenance. The conversion efficiency is approximately 90% due in part to their dual burn chambers. The joint committee will also see there is an ash box, the ash in which weighs no more than approximately 1% of the incoming fuel. It is a very efficient burn. That particular system is a Heizomat boiler. We installed two last month, one in the RDS supplying space and hot water heating for the main RDS building and the kitchen behind. We also supplied one to a pig farmer who was annoyed with his oil bill. He felt he could halve his bill so purchased one of these through us.

EU standards now exist for the fuel, the equipment and its installation. Any new fuel, like that for motor cars, must be validated by those standards as must the chips, the pellets and the equipment. The other attractive thing about wood fuel is price stability and security of supply. With control over the growing cycle, as COFORD, Coillte and the IFA will confirm, we can guarantee long-term prices for users of this fuel. We can sign a five year deal with a user at a given price because we have control over the growing cycle.

As Mr. O'Carroll pointed out earlier the nub of the issue of wood energy for heating is that the fuel is about half the price but the equipment is twice or three times the cost. I heard one plumber refer to it as 'high-flying hours'. The boiler needs to be in use all the time to get a payback on the extra capital. For hotels, leisure centres, hospitals and prisons which have high hot water loads every day the payback is very quick. According to our model paybacks it can be less than a year in some cases, where a wood boiler can be used to take part of the load so that it is operating all the time and a fossil fuel boiler takes the peak loads at different times. In industrial and commercial markets they can be modelled together.

On the question of carbon fines, wood is carbon neutral and is not impacted on by carbon taxes. We are already well over our 1990 carbon levels and for organisations involved in carbon trading the cost is approximately €20 per tonne at the moment.

Can Mr. Dick summarise what he believes the Government should do?

Mr. Dick

In terms of fuel we are exposed but have in biomass an annually replenished raw material. The economic argument to convert from fossil fuels makes sense. The conversion technology and economics are well proven — nothing is being reinvented. The heating market is our largest energy sector and we can have a quick win in terms of increasing the share of renewable energy. There are none of the complications there are in the electricity sector such as regulations, monopoly providers and AER competitions. We are starting to create an attractive new industry sector delivering jobs, improved competitiveness and important rural growth which will help reduce CO2 emissions.

Our experience of being in the market convinces us the market will look after itself once the supply chains are established. The Government will not need to commit itself to a long-term support programme but it does need to take proactive steps to introduce catalysts to get the industry off the ground. We suggest support of 50% via a fiscal, tax-based or grant-based mechanism for capital expenditure in small scale commercial or industrial heating systems in the range 100 KW to 5 MW, for a total of 200 MW of new capacity. Deputy Eamonn Ryan will be pleased that I have doubled the initial amount. These medium sized installations will deliver the supply chains and the comfort necessary for the second wave of the market to come in on its own, including operators on the domestic scale, which will not need the same supports.

SEI, the Government organisation working with the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources could pass as fit project development companies which would then access funds from the Department to develop the projects, of which some 600 are involved. The UK has a good model for this in the Clear Skies programme so we are not reinventing the wheel. The evidence there is that it is not a difficult programme to administer. We calculate the cost to the Government at €30 million spread over five years — €6 million per annum. The benefits accruing would be that 200 megawatts of new capacity could deliver €28 million per annum. That would be in rural areas, creating new jobs and diversification opportunities for farmers. We are currently paying €40 per megawatt hour for our oil and that it is low at the moment. That is €56 million per annum that we would not have to spend on imports.

The fines of €20 per tonne for CO2 emissions would amount to somewhere between €7 million and €12 million in savings, depending on whether one is substituting electricity or gas. It is like putting up €7 million and getting back much more in various ways.

We feel there needs to be an active programme to kickstart the market. A number of new private investors and companies are emerging so the market is there. We are only copying what has happened in other countries and we have the raw material. Perhaps the Government could follow what Forfás did for energy efficient lightbulbs with its publically funded marketing campaign and training for installers to get the accreditation to the new standards. It is not rocket science but it is a great opportunity.

Could Mr. Dick provide the clerk or our consultant with the name of the website for Clear Skies? If the joint committee needs any more information we or our consultant will be in touch. I thank Mr. Dick for his presentation.

Ms Barbara Maguire

The IFA does not have a renewable energy committee so we propose to divide our ten minute slot into two of five minutes. Mr. Colm McDonnell is a representative of the national grain committee and Mr. John J. Jackson, who will be dealing with wood energy, is the chairman of the IFA farm forestry committee .

Under our organisational review we will soon have a new renewables project group set up.

We are all familiar with the Common Agricultural Policy. Maybe we should now have a common energy policy and the IFA might address that in its presentation. Arising from our visit to Greece two years ago, it was suggested that a common energy policy be formulated. We included that in our report; Prime Minister Blair may have read it on our website. I must supply Deputy Eamon Ryan with a copy of the report from the Fifth Interparliamentary Assembly in Athens.

Mr. John J. Jackson

I thank the committee for the invitation to appear before it. I will try to be brief in outlining the potential for wood energy in Ireland.

There is a question as to whether Ireland is facing an energy crisis because of the rising energy costs here. Does Ireland have an Achilles' heel in its development as a nation because of its dependency on outside energy? The country imports €7 billion worth of fossil fuels annually. The country is haemorrhaging billions of euro because of its addiction to fossil fuels. This is a non-renewable form of energy that is not very clean. With oil prices hitting record highs this week, wood energy is something that can replace these fossil fuels. Wood energy is a renewable and clean form of energy. A smoking ban has been introduced and it would be good to bring in a fossil fuel ban. That will be a long time in the future.

Wood energy initiatives are evident in Scandinavia. Denmark and Austria brought in wood energy development associations during the oil crisis in the 1970s. That kick-started the industry in those countries, which have a proven track record of best practice and price. Finland is currently producing 20% of its energy from wood. This will increase to 30% by 2010, five years from now. Ireland could follow best practice in Europe.

I will discuss the benefits of wood energy. Forests already exist in Ireland and a promotional forestry programme will add perhaps 500,000 hectares of forestry up to 2030. A good and established afforestation programme is already evident. Farmers want to diversify into forestry as an energy crop that is environmentally friendly.

When thinnings are extracted from forests, best practice is being followed for managing the crop, and value is being added. Crops can be pruned and shaped. The I-beam of the ceiling of the new security gates at Leinster House show the changes that can come about, with beams of timber being used instead of steel beams. Steel rose 60% in price last year in Ireland. Much energy is expended to produce it. Timber as a low energy crop can be used for manufacturing and for wood energy. It has a very low cost and is friendly to the environment. Producing timber leaves a small environmental footprint. Many positives exist with timber.

Ireland has the best growth rate of timber in Europe. I met an Irish man working for an Austrian forestry company who believed that Irish forestry has growth rates that can only be dreamed about in Austria. This is a national asset. The characteristics, strengths, know-how and technology exist in Ireland, but a more aggressive afforestation programme is needed. A strategy for wood energy is also needed.

On climate change, with the introduction of the Kyoto Protocol, everybody knows the fines that the country could face. Growing the country's own timber means there would be security of supply. A mosaic of farmed forest will exist throughout Ireland. Timber supply would be local and easily accessed by end users.

With regard to rural development, people would work in the forests, extracting and chipping the material. The farmers and communities can form producer groups. The end product is employment. If an oil tanker is brought in, a money is paid to the oil company and little employment or import substitution is created.

Farmers have a raw material to extract. The first or second thinnings are low value and can be transformed into wood energy. A market exists in Ireland and will persist as long as energy prices rise. I have a map detailing the different sawmills and processing plants in Ireland. An alternate market exists for small diameter timber. This will encourage better forest management. If a forest is opened and the first and second thinnings are extracted, good quality end product is then within reach. Many energy-producing areas in Ireland lack mills and incentives should be put in place for these. Timber should be used at source, either for wood energy or added value, rather than hauling it long distances. As much timber is being produced, huge potential exists for creating more jobs in rural Ireland with native material.

With regard to wood as an energy source, farm forestry can be used on a small scale in stoves, boilers, etc. A member of the IFA is currently installing a wood gasifier. He is harvesting his first thinnings, leaving them to sit on the edge of the wood to dry for a few months and he will then bring them in bulk into a boiler that works from gas and heat emissions. He intends to heat his new bed and breakfast premises and two other houses through this one system. The boiler is loaded once a week and is functioning well. The IFA has not visited the system yet but it intends to organise field trips to it. Wood energy will develop in this manner.

On the medium scale, much potential exists for Government buildings, schools, hotels and offices to be supplied with wood chip. On a large scale, combined heating power plants are ideally suited for sawmills. Residue can be used to dry timber and for combined heat and power. A possibility exists of including forestry material to burn alongside peat in peat power stations. Timber is a more environmentally friendly product than peat.

Tradition is one of the barriers to wood energy. Ireland's forest cover decreased at one point to 1% but is now up to 10%. The country has lost much tradition and culture regarding timber, but best practice abroad can be looked at. There are currently between 10,000 and 12,000 farm foresters in Ireland. Every year, groups of these farmers take study trips throughout Europe, paying their own way to study best practice in other countries. Farm foresters are willing to grow the industry and a belief exists in it.

More policy and structure is needed. Government policy has failed with regard to the amount spent on renewable energy. The country has high potential to use wind power and there are great growth rates for timber, but the percentage of energy use taken up by renewables is not good. On a scale of one to ten, the country would score very low. A more aggressive stance must be taken on wood energy. Bord na Móna could open its peat-burning stations for co-firing along with timber, providing a huge market for the product. Financial support is needed to start this for a few years. This has happened in Scandinavia and there is no reason it cannot happen here.

With regard to the use of renewable energy, some people in positions of power are slow to switch to this energy. I participated in the Donegal energy forum two years ago and although most of the people involved talked about renewable energy, there were not enough representatives from the main energy users, such as the ESB, the oil companies, etc. Representatives from these users should be included in discussion about a renewable wood energy policy for Ireland.

Clear targets need to be set for wood energy. Within the IFA, many members wish to diversify into forestry. A huge land bank is not being used productively. An aggressive afforestation programme must come about, as well as an aggressive wood energy programme. This would be a clean, green home-grown source of energy. Tax incentives or rebates are needed for domestic users. Capital grants are needed for medium scale installations such as hotels, guesthouses, hospitals, Government buildings, etc. As far as capital grants for harvesting are concerned, we need people who can convert our first or second thinnings into woodchip and who are able to supply the large co-firing plants.

I thank the members for their attention. We have strengths in this country which are not being harnessed sufficiently. As I stated earlier, we need an aggressive afforestation programme and a wood energy strategy. It must be put in place quickly and must be done on a planned basis. We know our forest output over the years. To date, our renewable record is not good.

I thank Mr. Jackson. This committee has been considering its energy modules for many months and is coming to the end of its public hearings. Hopefully, its report will be helpful in the area of renewable resources and by offering suggestions and proposals to the Oireachtas and the Department as to the way forward. The vein running through today's session is that all the witnesses appear to be in agreement in respect of renewable resources. I thank Mr. Jackson again for his presentation. Will Mr. McDonnell give the presentation on biofuels?

Mr. Colm McDonnell

The presentation focuses on the production of the grains and rapeseeds used in these biofuels. I represent the tillage farmers of the country and we can grow rape as successfully as our counterparts in any other country. A member earlier asked what one gets from a tonne of rape. A tonne of rapeseed will produce approximately 360 litres of rape oil. A measure of winter oilseed rape will produce 1.8 tonnes of rapeseed or 648 litres of rape oil. There is much talk of using sugar beet to produce ethanol at present. A tonne of sugar beet will produce 100 litres of ethanol.

It will produce 100 litres.

Mr. McDonnell

Yes. A measure will produce 22 tonnes, which converts to 2,200 litres of ethanol per acre. Wheat will also produce approximately 300 litres of ethanol per tonne or, at four tonnes per acre, almost 1,200 litres of ethanol per acre. Hence we can produce as much as any other country in Europe. However, the cost is a prohibitive factor. The current cost of beet is approximately €50 per tonne. The price of wheat would need to be a minimum of approximately €140 per tonne and rape would need to be approximately €240 to €250 per tonne.

Is that the commercial value?

Mr. McDonnell

Yes. There is a extractor plant in operation in Wexford, which was started approximately 18 months ago by a group of farmers. It is a dry plant in that it squeezes the oil out. It is running fairly successfully but it needs the rebate on oil in order to be economic.

The rebate on excise duty.

Mr. McDonnell

Yes. It is in operation and I have driven a car for three or four months that runs on rape oil. It starts without any problems. It uses a mixed fuel — 15% diesel and the remainder rape oil. I do not know whether the guarantees work. It is approximately 15% more economic than diesel.

Is Mr McDonnell not tempted to toss in an extra 4% or 5% to see what would happen? Is it already premixed?

Mr. McDonnell

The diesel is included for starting purposes. In the milling industry, rape oil is generally dried down to a moisture content of 9%. In this case, however, it is dried down to a moisture content of 7%, which makes a tremendous difference to the manner in which the product coming out of the mill is handled. Perhaps that is why it starts so easily. I do not know.

For the record, can Mr. McDonnell give us the IFA recommendations in respect of the renewable resources?

Mr. McDonnell

The IFA maintains that the question is relevant to the Kyoto Protocol. Greenhouse gas emissions from beet are 45% of those from fossil fuel alternatives, while those for wheat are 33%.

The IFA has made a number of recommendations in its presentation. Are we reading the same document?

Mr. McDonnell

I thought the committee already had this information so I did not wish to read through it.

We have the document, which will be on the record, but can Mr. McDonnell give us a synopsis of the IFA's points? The IFA has made a number of points to the Government in its presentation.

Mr. McDonnell

The IFA is stating that it has the land bank to produce rape and the other energy products, if needed. The land bank is there if the will exists for industry to use them. Irish farmers will produce them as efficiently their counterparts in any other country. That is our basic point. The same applies to the grain sector. We can produce rape oil and the necessary goods for the production of biofuels in Ireland.

Is it possible to do so without subsidy?

Mr. McDonnell

As far as I am aware, the product cannot be produced without subsidy. We can produce grain at the price I quoted.

The committee will return to this matter.

Mr. McDonnell

I am not sure whether that is economical for the industry.

That is fine.

We can check this issue with other European countries. I know that soya oil is produced in Argentina and I do not believe the farmers there receive any Government subsidies.

The Chairman wishes to return to Argentina.

I will bring the press back with me.

The Chairman will return with the press.

Basically, the IFA has made a number of recommendations regarding the land which is now available for growing rapeseed oil. We will leave the question of timber aside because Mr. Jackson has covered it.

Mr. McDonnell

I wish to say something about willows. As a crop, willows have been slow to take off. Farmers will not grow it because it is not economic. The plant in Derry has been mentioned.

They have a one year cycle. They grow eight feet in one year and have a fast-growing cycle.

Members may ask some questions following Mr. Bruton's presentation. We will go directly to Deputy Durkan after that. I thank Mr. McDonnell for his attendance and presentation.

I will be brief and will skip straight to the pertinent points. I am here to represent the Irish Bioenergy Association. We have approximately 70 paid-up members, many of whom are present today. We welcome the formation of a national energy policy, which has been lacking for many years.

An energy policy is not necessarily an electricity policy. Perhaps I am speaking to the converted but, in Ireland and at EU level, the focus of 99% of policy is on electricity generation. The distinction is important because we see our media, our Ministers and the public using the terms "electricity" and "energy" interchangeably. Even now, we hear people in the media refer to the all-island energy market when they mean an electricity market. The distinction is important because, as Mr. Dick and other contributors have pointed out, a maximum of 33% of our energy use is in the form of electricity, while another 33% is in thermal and transport energy. It is important to provide targets and a policy for thermal energy in Ireland. At present, there are few targets and little policy in this area. We have poor targets and policy for transport energy and we would welcome the development of both in those energy sectors.

I wish to refer to the EU biomass action plan. This was an industry survey conducted by the directorate general of transport and energy earlier this year. It took well over 500 verified submissions from bioenergy contributors and experts across Europe and took five proposals from Ireland. I will summarise the top five proposals sent in at EU and national levels. The top proposal related to fiscal measures for bioenergy and the most commonly encountered recommendation was to provide a carbon credits mechanism that would support thermal transport and electrical energy generated from biomass. The second proposal was standardisation for bioenergy products. This would ensure quality and reliability of fuels and equipment across the EU. That is very important for a developing market and would create confidence in it. Rapid implementation of the renewable energy heat directive at EU level was a high priority for the industry. The two other important points were to raise awareness about bioenergy and amend CAP regulations to support bioenergy products.

At national level, five of the top recommendations, amalgamated from across the European Union in addition to the preceding five measures, were to fully and swiftly implement EU directives on energy at national level. The second most important measure was to provide a long-term stable vision and regulatory environment for the bioenergy industry. We heard frequent reference to willow, which has a four year establishment cycle. Most bioenergy projects have a minimum one-year lead time, so one is considering a very large capital investment and a long lead-in time. The projects require a very long-term stable economic environment in which to work.

The third proposal at national level is to provide preferential tax treatment for bioenergy, something about which we heard much today. We wish to reinforce the notion that we would like tax breaks for bioenergy products, whether they be biodiesel, renewable heat supply or solid biofuels. We certainly lament the non-implementation of the carbon tax initiative last year. The fourth recommendation was to simplify administration procedures. The majority of organisations and businesses in the industry are small, with limited resources, and they find increasingly large and costly hurdles placed in their way in the form of administration.

The last major recommendation was to increase awareness of bioenergy. Again, SMEs do not have marketing and advertising budgets. It is seen as the Government's role to promote it. That is a summary of the EU biomass action plan and we endorse its recommendations. I thank the committee for inviting us and ask it to choose biomass for heat, transport, security, stability of price, rural development, jobs and carbon reduction.

Has the Irish Bioenergy Association thought out the long-term stable vision and regulatory mechanisms to which Mr. Bruton refers? Has it developed a model or does it have a number of proposals or suggestions?

Our members participated in the bioenergy strategy group — run by the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources — during the past 12 to 18 months, at meetings of which many mechanisms were discussed to support bioenergy products.

Will Mr. Bruton send us that information because the committee might be assisted if it knew about proposed tax treatments, measures, etc.? We have another month or two to work on this but that information would be helpful to us when we are completing our report.

The delegation has had to wait for some time and I would like to have a long conversation with it but that is not possible. Perhaps we might meet it again at a later date.

The question of willow and the growing cycle arose. There is a new willow which can grow 8 ft. in a year. It is quite a formidable tree but it must be in a certain climate. Much water is required. Somebody said earlier that one can dispose of various effluents in this area, which may be so. Heating from biomass in pig farming was mentioned. I presume that gas is the most efficient use of the conversion of the bioproduct.

It was stated that straw is almost a thing of the past because of bedding habits and so on. There is a possibility that we may return to those bedding habits again because of the smell factor, particularly in tourism areas and in terms of the potential for pollution. I wonder about research done on the possibility of drying out some of that material to a much greater extent and using the fuel available.

There are various ways in which one can contribute to conservation. For example, building a 10,000 gallon tank adjacent to an ordinary house in order to take the water off the roof has huge potential in terms of reducing the refinement and treatment of water. The latter could be beneficial to the household and to the economy.

The production of biofuels is rendered more economic when one removes excise. The degree to which one replaces imports — this has a much wider impact — must be taken into account. Will Mr. Bruton comment on that? The issue for the agricultural producer is the extent to which it is commercially viable without subsidy. I am not certain about that just yet. For example, many comparisons were made with the Carlow sugar factory and the potential for the production of bioethanol. The latter is not viable unless all excise is removed. The next part of the equation is the degree to which it will replace the existing enterprise per acre on farms, otherwise it will not be viable from a production point of view. I would like confirmation of that. Professor Hayes in the University of Limerick has commented on that general area.

We spend our time criticising the people of Brazil and Argentina, some of whom the Chairman met recently. We criticise them for the destruction of the rain forests and the serious damage caused to the environment. We do not seem to recognise we can compensate them to leave the rain forests as they are. We can also grow trees here which has already been mentioned. To what extent can we grow trees that have a compensatory factor so far as emissions are concerned, with particular reference to carbon? For example, I have been trying to get this information for years and nobody can tell me how many thousands of trees have to be grown of a particular variety to offset the emissions from a modern car that has all the after burners and so on put into it. There has to be somebody somewhere who can provide this information. I have tried to get it by tabling parliamentary questions, inquiring at the Department of Agriculture and Food and so on. I am glad to know the information is about to be made available.

There were a number of references to the suitability of the Irish climate for forestry purposes. The growing cycle is much longer here than elsewhere. If one speaks with a timber merchant and compares the quality of the timber grown in Denmark, Norway or Finland, for some unknown reason, perhaps because of the shorter growing season and the drier climate and hotter summers, it is of a much higher quality. In terms of drying, the costs of drying corn are well known. The costs of drying any product are relative. The trees grown in Denmark, Finland or Denmark will require a different treatment from the trees grown in Allenwood which used to be part of my constituency. I thank the groups for the information they have given us which is well researched. They know their subject and I compliment them.

Mr. Jackson

I will answer a few of the questions. On the issue of tax breaks, how can the forestry end of the industry survive without subsidies? If a farmer has been asked to take his land out of production permanently and establish a forest, which they are being asked to do, they need a premium per acre so there has to be a subsidy. Once that forest is up at 25 or 30 years, it is generating an income for the farmer and he is under obligation to replant. That forest is replanted again and it is there permanently. To initially get the forest established the afforestation grant and subsidies are available. Once one plants a forest one gets no income from the land for 15 to 20 years for forest thinning and then it is only a marginal income.

I agree with the Deputy in regard to the Brazilian farmers and the destruction they are causing to the rain forests. They are planting a good deal of beet which is in competition with our farmers. Is it right that some commercial forestry barons in Brazil, Argentina and so on can plant thousands upon thousands of acres of beet in cattle ranches and rain forested areas while we in the EU trade with that competition?

Sitka spruce, which is one of the fantastic trees of Ireland and is ideally suited to the Irish condition, is a great locker of carbon. It is one of the most efficient. The carbon is locked in that material until it is burned and released or until the wood disintegrates. It is a fantastic grower. The strength of——

What happens if it is dried before it is processed?

Mr. Jackson

The carbon is locked in the timber. Perhaps our technical expert can answer that question. Yesterday I was in my forest school and I first lifted the side branches. It is an 11 year-old forestry plantation, the growth level of which is frightening and I was cutting off the side branches. When the timber swells over the years it will be knot-free, high quality, well-strengthened timber. I refer again to the security gate. If one looks at the ceiling one will see small diameter timber glulam together in place of steel beams. The future is there in timber. During the past ten years timber framed housing here has increased from 1% to 25% of the new housing stock. We are not using enough Irish timber but the percentage of Irish timber being used is increasing. As technology increases and as we follow best practice throughout Europe we have the timber here and the technology to use the Irish timber. Twenty years ago when the timber was not being treated there were many stories concerning Irish timber. Today we are competing on a world scale and doing it better. We have all the standards, procedures and so on in place.

Thank you Mr. Jackson.

Mr. Rice

On the first point about the piggery and whether one would be better off getting energy from bio-gas rather than from installing a boiler, the answer is probably "No". Up to now it has been difficult to justify the economics of using a bio-gas plant to just produce methane and some energy.

Does it not have a dual purpose? It is drying and heating the material, which I accept takes energy, but is not the environmental nature of the end product beneficial?

Mr. Rice

In terms of the environment yes, but that is not leaving any shillings in the man's pocket.

I take the point.

Mr. Rice

That situation may change. If he puts up a digester and if there are some local food wastes for which somebody is prepared to pay a gate fee to dispose of, that is a different proposition. The problems being looked at in agriculture are whether there are health risks to the animals if they spread the digesta from food waste on land. If that can be got around and a reasonable set of rules are introduced to allow the digesta to be spread on land that would change the economics. On the issue of straightforward slurry to bio-gas, there is no benefit except the energy to pay for the capital cost. It is hard to——

It will not stand up.

Like the Chairman I apologise in the sense that we do not have the time. This is a hugely significant and important area as we are talking about the future of Irish agriculture, the future of heating, energy and so on. We should be in the main Chamber rather than here. The presentations are significant. I suggest, Chairman, that we ensure that the overheads are included in an appendix to any report we produce so that they go on the record in that way as well as what is said here. What the delegation has said is important for many people, the future of this country, the economy, the environment and society. I will have to limit myself to a couple of precise questions on the issue of specific support changes.

Given the alternatives between bioethanol, biodiesel or whatever variety, and mixing it in or else producing plant oil on a fuel-oil basis — it may need a change of Government to do this and a different attitude — would Mr. Rice concentrate his resources on a bio-fuel support system which was biased towards providing a 5% mix of bioethanol, biodiesel or whatever? Would that be better placed to locate our incentives rather than opting for plant oil?

Mr. Rice

One would really like to try to move with both because what will happen is that vegetable oil bio-diesel will move first. In fact it is already moving. It has a definite upper limit as to how far it can go whereas ethanol is harder to get off the ground but its potential in the long run is much greater. We need to try to run with both. We are making some progress on the vegetable oil. We need to get a bio-diesel plant off the ground and as soon as possible, but it will take a little longer. We need to get at least one bioethanol plant going.

As a layman, when one looks at the return on bioethanol from sugar beet at 4,500 litres per hectare versus wheat at 3,000 litres per hectare does that mean sugar beet is potentially a better bet than wheat?

Mr. Rice

No. It will boil down to cost per litre rather than per hectare. If one were tagging on to an existing beet factory, then it might be more economic to go with beet. If one was starting with a greenfield situation, it would probably be more economic to go with wheat.

We have one factory left. Has Mr. Rice done any calculations on the level of fuel used as an input to get that output? In other words, in fertiliser and level of oil used, has Mr. Rice done an equation in that energy account, as it were?

Mr. Rice

Those figures are available. They are less attractive for ethanol than for biodiesel but the measure people use nowadays, more so than a straight energy balance, is well to wheel greenhouse gas. In that light, ethanol much improves because a 5% blend of ethanol with petrol much improves the combustion efficiency of the blend, so it come up a lot on that score.

Even with the fossil fuel inputs in fertilisers, pesticides and so on.

Mr. Rice

Yes.

Mr. Dick seemed to indicate that, to a certain extent, we should concentrate our support mechanisms on industrial commercial boiler applications. If I understood him correctly, he said the domestic end of it would kick start itself. Why is that not happening given that wood pellets are cheaper than fuel at present? Why does it not need a kick start? Would an ordinary plumber — the fellow who will install one's gas fired boiler — be able to install a wood fired boiler? Is there much training involved?

Mr. Dick

I will answer the second question first. I refer to the two systems we installed last month. Three German engineers from the boiler manufacturer were over and following approximately four hours of training, the local plumber grasped all that he needed to know about fitting the boiler. Basically, there is flow and return hot water. Everything that happens after the fire box is very similar to oil or gas so from the plumber's perspective, it is very straightforward. Maintaining and installing the actual boiler is a little more complicated but we have two engineers trained up in that and they spent three days on it. It is relatively straightforward.

Plumbers are well used to training themselves up on new products as they come on stream. Their industry is moving and they must keep up with the times so they train themselves. There are initiatives underway. I believe there is a renewal energy academy which is supported by Sustainable Energy Ireland and it was put in place to train the plumbers.

I return to the Deputy's first question on the initial focus on the industrial and commercial applications. That is where we see the quickest pay back in terms of the commercial attractiveness where an application might be running for 80% or 90% of the year delivering its full heat load. The larger applications will tend to put in place the local supply chains so a local farmer will get interested if he thinks he can supply 300 or 400 tonnes per year to an application. However, a small house might only use only two or three tonnes of chip. To kick start the market, we believe the commercial industrial area is probably the most attractive.

Could a local farmer produce chip? Does one not need some sort of technology to dry it out? Can a local farmer produce it on the farm?

Mr. Dick

We installed 150 acres of willow in 2000. Our first harvest was in February and we dried down the chip on drying floors. We also chipped spruce and pine and dried it down on the same drying floors. One leaves the timber down for one year and then one chips it up in standard hand fed chippers. The fuel wood chip has an EU standard. Most of the chippers in Ireland are used by tree surgeons and it is really for volume reduction and one gets long stringy bits in the chip. It is only to reduce the volume and produce mulch whereas the fuel wood chip has an EU standard and produces something a little like an Oxo cube. The chippers produce these standard chips. It is a very straightforward process.

Are there many private foresters, small farmers or otherwise? Perhaps there is not an accurate figure. Mr. Jackson said that in some places, lovely new timber is being created where people are doing the thinning properly. Are some farmers with small allotments of 2 or 5 hectares, and who have got forestry grants, not doing proper thinning and processing? To a certain extent, would moving towards lopping and topping more effectively to produce this fuel have an aside benefit in terms of getting the better product wood about which Mr. Jackson spoke, particularly on private sector rather than on Coillte lands?

Mr. Jackson

Managing one's forest is a very expensive job so there are grants available to do that work. That work will add tremendous value to one's growing crop. There are many progressive farmers who are well in tune with it. Teagasc is running courses on how to add value inside one's plantation.

How would Mr. Jackson respond to nutrient loss to which Coillte referred?

Mr. Jackson

People look at a clearfell situation. Looking over the hedge, one sees all this debris lying about and it looks like a bomb site but, in fact, lop and top, the odd stump and deformed branch is nutrient lying there for the next crop. It is put into rows. If one plants young trees on both sides of the row, one will see the trees growing much faster than trees which are not beside that nutrient base. One talks about the environment but if one looks at the clearfell situation, one will see all the wild grass and flowers growing there. It is a fantastic, open biodiverse area. One sees the largest mammal in this country, the red deer, grazing on that untarnished and unpolluted material.

If one takes that reside out to turn it into pellets or chips, is one loosing some of the nutrients in there?

Mr. Jackson

One can take out one's first thinnings and one's first narrow diameter woods. Some of it will go to the pellet and board mill but much of the deformed stuff can go for wood energy. It all depends on the site. If the site demands that the lop and top, branches and brash are left, they can be left but there are also many very fertile sites from which one can remove that.

Ms Maguire

In regard to nutrients, we envisage the energy being harvested through whole tree chipping. The trees would be cut off at the stump. One would leave the trees in the forest for perhaps six to nine months to dry out before one would chip them. At that stage, they would have lost their needles so the nutrients from the needles would be left. One is leaving more behind than one is taking. That would help the nutrient balance.

Many small areas have been granted aided but some farmers planted off their own bat before grants came in. The big cost with harvesting is getting the machinery on to the site and transport costs. All our panel board mills are in the south so for farmers in the north west or other such areas, it might be more economic for them to produce chips. They would be able to do the thinning. Given transport costs, they may not have been encouraged to thin before. If they have an alternative local market and can produce chip for a local building, then those farmers will have the opportunity to manage their crops to their full potential.

What specific support measures would Mr. Bruton like introduced? Has BioEnergy come up with any measures — for example, 200 MW of support for capital grant? What is BioEnergy looking for?

We do not have a very evolved policy. However, we are looking for across the board recognition for the energy products BioEnergy can deliver. We are looking for an instrument which recognises heat energy as well as electricity energy. The most commonly suggested form would be carbon credits. We would appreciate rapid implementation of the Kyoto Protocol via the EPA as the enforcing body in Ireland, whereby we could have a system to apply and sell carbon credits generated by bioenergy projects. Currently this market is neither established nor nationally regulated.

We would also welcome the introduction of the long-mooted carbon tax which would see bioenergy products favoured over and above fossil fuel equivalents. Many specific measures related to the individual bioenergy products could be implemented, such as full and unrestricted excise relief for liquid biofuels products, without any two-year caveat or restricted volumes.

There are many schemes which we could recommend to the joint committee but we certainly support the implementation of a boiler capital grant scheme to kick-start the nascent wood energy industry. As has been pointed out many times today, there is a chicken and egg scenario where nobody will supply products until a boiler agrees to buy the energy and there is a certain amount of room to provide financial aid to that market. We would also appreciate an industry-wide awareness and information campaign on energy in general and also on bioenergy because many of the people in the industries are SMEs, small and medium businesses, and do not have the resources to promote energy products. We find our products and projects are a hard sell because of a lack of awareness and confidence on the part of the general public. I cannot be any more specific about measures.

I have a question because I have been looking for this information for many years. I refer to the number of trees needed to be grown in order to counter the emissions. I am conscious of the sitka spruce being the main variety used and the western red cedar being a very close second. My other question is to do with a comparison in terms of energy efficiency and from an environmental point of view of conversion from the raw material to energy, for instance, raw wood in the open fire versus wood chip in a burner. My final point is about road transport generally. Little thought is given to aerodynamics and its effect on the use of energy. I do not wish to start an argument about people who drive SUVs which require great energy to propel. However studies in Austria and in some countries of central Europe, have shown the degree of resistance created by vehicles which are not aerodynamically well designed. Can the learned delegation provide any information on this matter? Four by four vehicles make a big difference.

Mr. Dick

I will answer the Deputy's question on efficiencies in terms of wood chip versus the open fire. The open fire is not an efficient combustion chamber because draughts come from all directions and most of the energy goes up the chimney. COFORD, the National Council for Forest Research and Development, referred to 15% waste and I have heard of 20%. It has been measured in various ways. A combustion chamber within a wood chip or wood pellet boiler is a standardised process and fuel which is well controlled. In terms of aerodynamics, many car and vehicle manufacturers quote miles per gallon. They must have put a lot of effort into working on aerodynamics in air tunnels in order to improve the miles per gallon rating but I am not an expert in that area.

I have a query about emissions. For instance, a man in my area was fined €1,000 last week for burning cuttings so I presume he was damaging the environment. Why was he fined?

Mr. Jackson

He may not just have been burning cuttings but also rubbish. On the question about road transport, this material can be grown in rural Ireland. It can cause damage to minor roads when it is being harvested. However, timber is a high energy material with a good end use. Our road system will need to be upgraded to carry these loads.

I note in Germany and other places that roads have been upgraded. It will cost money to do this but the timber can be grown in clustered areas. It will help solve the road transport problems if lorry design includes aluminium, low weight bodies. Much work is being done on this problem and standards are being upgraded all the time.

Our technical advisor, Ms Maguire and I were in Brussels earlier this year to talk to the Directorate General for the environment and to the Directorate General for agriculture on the problems in the afforestation programme caused by cutbacks in funding. We had good meetings with both Directorates General, two two-hour meetings. Before the meetings I was worried about Ireland's record of afforestation. During those meetings, they only laid one hard punch on us, in my view, which was that Ireland does not have a wood energy strategy. This was the only question we could not counter and we had to agree with them. We discussed the afforestation programme which includes planting of diverse species such as broadleaf, conifers and the type of afforestation being carried out.

I remind the Chairman not to forget the trees for the exhaust. How many thousand trees must be grown to counter the environmental impact of a modern car?

Does Deputy Durkan wish me to recall a witness?

Yes. It might be a good idea. I have been trying to get this information all my life and I hope I will not be disappointed now.

I thank the delegation for staying on. Deputy Durkan must have the information.

Dr. Hendricks

COFORD has produced a newsletter which sets out the different sequestration rates for carbon for different species. I will send that information to Deputy Durkan and I will supply all the details he has requested.

I request a copy to be sent to the clerk of the committee.

I thank everyone who made presentations today. This has been a light-hearted day because the committee has often had difficult days involving robust meetings with groups. I thank Mr. Rice, Mr. Dick, Mr. Jackson, Mr. McDonnell, Ms Maguire and Mr. Bruton and all the other groups who made presentations today. It was a long day but the committee has been given a flavour of and an understanding of what needs to be done if alternative energy sources are to be developed more rapidly. The committee now has a good idea of what direction it should take. There will be more public hearings and the committee will then make recommendations which will add value to the process. It will issue a number of recommendations which hopefully will be adopted by Government when formulating policy on all forms of energy.

We must be careful with energy. Mr. Bruton has informed the committee on the fact that there are different types of energy and of which it should be mindful.

I suggest that the committee invite the regulator to attend to discuss the matter of increased energy prices on foot of projections issued in recent days which may have a serious impact on electricity prices.

The Deputy's request will be granted. The committee will ask the regulator to appear before it.

I suggest it should be the regulators, plural.

Under the provisions of the Act through which it was established, the regulator will appear before the committee next Wednesday, subject to availability.

The joint committee adjourned at 7 p.m. sine die.

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