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JOINT COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS, NATURAL RESOURCES AND AGRICULTURE debate -
Tuesday, 25 Oct 2011

Priority Issues: Discussion with Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine

I welcome the Secretary General, Mr. Tom Moran, and his officials. This is the first official opportunity Mr. Moran has had to address the committee. I apologise for the delay in commencing this part of the meeting. We were engaged in clearing a backlog in respect of the scrutiny of EU proposals. There was a certain amount of discussion regarding the matter and this meant that the previous part of the meeting took longer than anticipated.

I advise that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in respect of a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I call on Mr. Moran to make his opening statement.

Mr. Tom Moran

The Chairman need not worry about the delay as we are delighted to be here anyway. He is also correct that it is my first time before this new committee. I wish him and his new committee every success and the Department will naturally be as helpful and co-operative as it has been in the past. I will introduce the people accompanying me and I have brought a fairly hefty team with me. Mr. Kevin Smyth is the assistant secretary in charge of single payment and Portlaoise and forestry operations. Mr. Philip Carroll is the assistant secretary in charge of our human resources management services function, as well as our animal health and welfare. Mr. Tony Burke is the assistant secretary in charge of our finances and environmental payment systems based in Wexford. Mr. Paul Dillon is head of corporate affairs and Ms Ann Derwin is our chief economist.

This follows from the meetings between the committee and the Minister for the Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Coveney, and the Minister of State, Deputy McEntee, who provided a comprehensive overview of the policy priorities within the Department and the current state of the agriculture, food and the marine sectors. As I gather that is what the committee wants to consider, I will explain how the Department operates in the formulation and implementation of policy objectives as well as in achieving operational targets.

The newly named Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine is a multifunctional organisation which provides a wide range of services directly and through specialist State agencies operating under its aegis. The Department has a wide and diverse customer base which includes farmers, taxpayers, consumers, food processors and other commercial operators, those involved in sea fishing, forestry, bio-energy, research as well as diverse EU institutions, other State bodies and special interest groups. The Department will shortly publish a new statement of strategy, and our mission statement is "To lead the sustainable development of the agri-food and marine sector and to optimise its contribution to national development and the natural environment".

Within this there are four high-level goals, the first of which is the agri-food and marine policy, development and trade. This is "Progressing, in collaboration with relevant sectors and State bodies, the further development of the agri-food and marine sector, including the achievement of Food Harvest 2020 targets." The second goal is food safety, animal health and welfare, as well as plant health, which is "Maintaining the highest standards of food safety, consumer protection, animal health and welfare and plant health." The third goal is the rural and marine economy and environment, which takes in "Promoting economic, social and environmentally sustainable farming, fishing and forestry." The fourth goal is the effective delivery of schemes and services, which "Further enhance our human and technological capabilities to provide effective and responsive services for all clients, and to also deliver public service reform."

Over recent years, this Department has worked with the Department of Finance and, more recently, the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to improve financial reporting. The intention is to show a clearer alignment between resources voted by the Oireachtas and the outputs achieved for these resources. Last year, we participated in a pilot programme to more closely align the goals of the Department into four programmes which formed the basis of our 2011 Estimates. Our new strategy statement is now aligned to these four goals, which have a greater focus on performance and delivery. Each year, the Vote, subheads and administrative costs are allocated on a programme basis and each programme identifies outputs and outcomes which it expects to achieve in the year in question. As Accounting Officer, I then report annually to the Oireachtas on the outcomes achieved.

Three corporate policy documents, with common themes of competitiveness, innovation, sustainability and quality service, underpin the mission statement. These are the Programme for Government 2011 to 2016, the national recovery plan and the Food Harvest 2020 report. A key element of the work in the Department will be to ensure the full implementation of the Food Harvest 2020 report. As the Minister has already pointed out, this document was drawn up by key stakeholders in the agri-food sector last year and was endorsed by the previous Government. It was clearly driven by the Department, as is very evident, and it has been fully embraced by the current Government, with the Minister chairing the high level implementation group. A further report entitled Food Harvest: Milestones for Success was produced in July and it sets out the significant progress made in the first year as well as elaborating on the path ahead and interim milestones to our 2020 goals.

The Department's priorities are to pursue the implementation of the programme for Government, Food Harvest and the Milestones for Success reportto maximise the contribution of the sector to the national export-led economic recovery. It will also optimise the development of the agri-food and marine sector, ensure the maintenance of the highest standards in food safety and consumer protection, seek to implement further efficiencies and improvements in service delivery in the context of budgetary constraints, steer a successful EU presidency during the first six months of 2013 and work collaboratively with other member states to maintain a supportive and well resourced Common Agricultural Policy and Common Fisheries Policy. Addressing these priorities will be challenging in the current climate and at a minimum will require strategic re-prioritisation of resources.

The committee might like to know a little about the structure of the Department. My role as Secretary General of the Department is clearly defined in the Ministers and Secretaries Act and the Public Services Management Act. My job is effectively similar to that of the CEO of a large organisation but working within the parameters of that legislation. On an operational level, the staff ultimately report to me as the Accounting Officer and the management advisory committee, MAC. There are eight members of this committee, comprised of assistant secretaries, the chief veterinary officer and the chief inspector. That committee meets on a fortnightly basis and periodically meets in a different formation with Ministers. That is now on a quarterly basis but can be more often as issues require it.

This level of close co-operation and commitment between officials and Ministers is no more than one would expect. In my experience it has always been excellent in the Department. The recent example of the Food Harvest 2020 report was born out of the work of the Department's management advisory committee, and the Department facilitated the industry in drawing up the report. It drove it fairly hard and it was endorsed by the previous and current Governments. The Minister, Deputy Coveney, has taken a hands-on approach towards the implementation of the recommendations as evidenced by the publication of the recent Milestones for Success document.

It is a big Department and has been engaged in major reorganisation at all levels. This has been facilitated by changes in the way Department schemes are managed, reductions in disease levels, advanced use of information technology and by a programme of internal reviews of business units, including major reviews of the local office network. As a result of this reorganisation, the Department has been able to reduce its staffing levels from 4,800 in 2005 to some 3,600 currently, a reduction of 25%. The cost of running the Department has fallen substantially since 2008 by some €60 million or approximately 20%. Staff are located in the six major offices in Dublin, Cavan, Portlaoise, Backweston near Celbridge, Clonakilty and Johnstown Castle, as well as in a wide geographical spread of regional offices, laboratories and other premises.

Over the coming years, further changes will continue as the local office reorganisation programme evolves, operations are consolidated to improve efficiency, service delivery and further budgetary constraints are introduced following the comprehensive expenditure review.

The Department has been undergoing major changes in its operating environment in recent years, mainly due to the impact of the single farm payment, the benefits derived from a substantial investment in IT, significant reductions in disease incidence and the ongoing implementation of internal reviews of the structure and staffing of key business units of the Department. That is an ongoing dynamic. In 2009, when the decision was taken to rationalise local offices, the Department had 58 offices providing services to our clients and analysis then showed that this number of offices was not sustainable. The analysis also showed that these local offices were carrying a surplus of more than 400 staff when resource availability was compared to business activity. I stress it is not that the staff were at the time doing nothing or redundant. It is that the change in the nature of the way in which we were working, and the IT capacity and the shift in disease activity, allowed us to do this.

It was decided to move towards a network of 16 offices evenly spread throughout the country, the key advantage being that any customer could visit any office in the network and not only the parent or county office, thus providing enhanced coverage of the country from fewer locations. This decision was facilitated by technological processes within the Department and by the national roads infrastructure.

Since 20 May last, local services are now being provided to our customers from 16 enhanced offices: Castlebar, Cavan, Clonakilty, Cork city, Drumshambo, Enniscorthy, Galway, Naas, Navan, Limerick, Raphoe, Roscommon town, Tipperary town, Tralee, Tullamore and Waterford city. Each enhanced office has a full complement of skilled staff across the full spectrum of business activities.

Staff numbers continue to decline in the Department's local offices. Since July 2009 there has been a reduction of 300 local office staff through retirement without replacement and redeployment across the Department and, indeed, into the wider public service where there are particular needs which we were trying to meet. The reductions in offices and staff are already yielding savings in the order of some €20 million for 2011 and when fully implemented and operational, will yield savings in the region of €30 million each year while continuing to provide an effective and efficient level of service.

Departmental expenditure is a topical issue. The gross Vote for 2011 is €1.647 billion. In 2008, this figure was €2.1 billion. In addition, the Department is responsible for administering EU funds of just under €1.3 billion on the single farm payment, which is €1.2 billion, and market supports such as intervention and export refunds. This latter expenditure takes place outside of the Department's Vote. Total gross Exchequer and EU estimated expenditure in 2011 will be €2.9 billion. The structure and the make-up of the Department must handle, control and operate expenditure of the guts of €3 billion.

There is a list of semi-State agencies which all operate in their various areas. Twelve in all, they come within the aegis of the Department. I will not read them out, but they are included in the script in front of the committee. As the members will see, there is a wide range of semi-State bodies which reflect the reach and spread of the Department.

I will elaborate on the Department's operational environment. On the economic environment, the global recession and downturn in the Irish economy has brought a new set of challenges. The current constraints on public finances, including the commitments and responsibilities under the ED-IMF programme, will apply for the next few years. Consequently, to achieve the most effective outcomes, the Department must target its reduced resources at key priorities. Greater collaboration with other agencies will also help to position the agrifood, fisheries and forestry sector as a strategic component of the export-led growth.

The public service reform programme envisages a smaller, leaner, more integrated and technology driven Civil Service. This citizen focused service will operate with a reduced cost base and with fewer staff. Achieving these intended results will mean that the working environment for all staff of the Department will change. The transformation programme will mean more flexible work practices, continued redeployment arrangements, delivery of targeted quality services with fewer resources and reconfiguration of services and structures.

As I mentioned earlier, previous experience has demonstrated the capacity of this Department and its staff to deal effectively with challenges and pressures. Recognising that there is, and has always been, a genuine commitment to productivity and change, management in the Department will foster this capability by improving its own leadership and communication skills, by facilitating more structured on the job development and ensuring greater responsiveness and personal interaction with staff. Management will also take whatever further steps are necessary to effect the cultural and organisational changes recommended under the Organisational Review Programme, ORP.

The effective implementation of Food Harvest 2020 and Milestones for Success, which was published this summer, is core to the future development of the sector. The compelling vision of these reports is the belief in the underlying growth potential of the sector and the need to realise the targets set through a co-ordinated and collaborative response from Government-State agencies and a parallel commercial commitment from industry. There are over 40 key actions in Milestones for Success to be completed this year and these are good examples of a co-ordinated interagency approach.

The EU and international context is crucial. The national strategic direction of the Department is influenced by international developments, global trading patterns and EU policy. Issues such as world population growth and increasing affluence in emerging economies offer significant growth potential for the sector. On the other hand, the increased volatility of international commodity prices and supply shocks in scarce resources can endanger market stability, cause uncertainty and threaten growth for European farmers and fishermen. It is important that the EU 2020 Strategy and the reform of the Common Agricultural Policy, CAP, and the Common Fisheries Policy, CFP, reflect these issues. In that context, the Department is working to ensure a properly resourced CAP and CFP which will underpin a sustainable and profitable European agricultural, fisheries and food production base in harmony with environmental best practice.

The environment is the catch-all global context in which we operate. The global challenges of food security, climate change, biodiversity and conservation of scarce resources - oil, soil, water, fish stocks, etc. - have influenced our relationship with the environment. The result is a growing consumer concern for the protection of the environment, interest in the provision of public goods, and demand for food products which can be verified as being ethically and sustainably produced. Furthermore, rising global food demand affords growth potential for the Irish food and drinks industry. Realising the potential opportunities and meeting the challenges involved are central to our policy response and to the future direction of the agrifood and marine sector.

The interaction with the EU is crucial in all of this also. The committee will appreciate that the Department has many dealings with the European Commission, Ministers and officials of other member states and, increasingly, the European Parliament. As well as officials' and Ministers' attendance at Commission and Council meetings, we also have a team of officials from the Department in the Irish permanent representation in Brussels. To strengthen our trade and policy links with certain areas, we also have agriculture attachés in the embassies of London, Paris, Berlin, Rome, Warsaw, Geneva and Washington. These are staff from the Department who are seconded to the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade for the duration but who work on agriculture and food.

The Lisbon treaty introduced significant changes in legislative procedures in the area of agriculture and fisheries. The European Parliament now has full co-decision powers with the Council on most legislative matters in these areas. This has an impact on how the Department conducts its business. I am aware that the committee and both Houses have also received additional powers under the treaty with the introduction of the "subsidiarity check" provisions. I am also aware that consideration of EU matters will now be a standing item on the agenda for the committee with which we will be delighted to co-operate.

Proposals are generally published by the Commission following consultation and are adopted by the Council and the Parliament. At Council level, the proposal is considered by expert officials from each member state and at Parliament level, by the Committee on Agriculture and Rural Development. My Department's officials in the permanent representation in Brussels maintain constant contact with Irish MEPs on proposals of importance to Ireland and they, along with senior officials from Dublin, provide regular briefings for MEPs on key issues. A proposal must be agreed by the Council and the Parliament before it can be enacted.

When the proposal is initially published, my officials submit the proposal along with an explanatory note to the committee. I or my officials are happy to meet with the committee at any time to discuss any aspect of a proposal.

In general, I feel that we work well at European level. We have an excellent reputation in that particular arena. An example of this is on CAP reform. For up to two years prior to the legal proposals emerging from the Commission, we have been active lobbying the Commission and seeking allies in other member states and in the Parliament. The formal negotiations have now begun. In fact, last week's session in the Council in Luxembourg was the first formal session on the new CAP. They will continue at least until 2013. It is possible that the Irish Presidency in the first half of 2013 will have a key role in this process. We will continue to commit a huge amount of effort to influencing the shape of the final agreement, both through the formal negotiation and through informal contacts. We very much welcome the enhanced role the committee will play in this process, and we will be happy to support it in any way we can.

There are a number of points to be made with regard to the Common Agricultural Policy and the Common Fisheries Policy, but I will not go into them in great detail. We have set out the key points with regard to the CAP as bullet points in our written presentation. With regard to fisheries, we have spelled out the key issues in greater textual detail. I know these were discussed at length with the Ministers when they were here. We will be delighted to provide any details that are required.

The last issue is that of payments. The Department is very conscious of the importance of getting direct payments processed and paid to farmers as quickly as possible, and we devote considerable resources to this task. Members will have seen recent media reports of severe disallowances suffered by some member states for failing to have proper mapping and measuring systems. This underlines the importance of receiving accurate material from the participating farmers in the first instance. An important publication that the committee probably receives, AgriFacts, recently gave a fairly graphic list of the disallowances, as they are called, that were suffered by other member states, mostly due to this. Thankfully, on that occasion we did not feature. However, it was noticeable that Sweden, for example, appeared right at the top, with a disallowance of €76 million based specifically on mapping issues.

The single farm payments began issuing directly to farmers' bank accounts on Monday, 17 October. These advance payments, worth in excess of €487 million, are initially issuing to almost 101,000 farmers whose applications are cleared for payment at this stage. Further ongoing payments will continue to issue as individual cases are cleared. The payments are issuing six weeks ahead of the payment date laid down in the governing EU regulations, directly as a result of the case the Minister made to the Commissioner earlier this year to allow earlier payment. This is the earliest date that could be agreed because it is the start of the EU financial year.

It is important to note that payments will continue to be made under the single farm payment scheme as applications are cleared for payment. We always encourage farmers who have outstanding correspondence with the Department to respond immediately in order that their applications can be cleared. Additional payments will continue to be made up to 1 December, when the 50% balancing payments are scheduled to commence issuing. I am confident that by the year end, the vast bulk of single farm payments will have been paid, with a total value of more than €1.2 billion.

Payments under the disadvantaged areas scheme also continue to issue as cases are confirmed eligible. While DAS payments only started issuing five weeks ago, more than €185 million has already been paid to more than 84,000 farmers, and the necessary arrangements are in place to ensure the remaining payments issue as soon as possible. There are numerous other schemes, all of which are equally important, and we place a high priority on dealing with these efficiently.

On food safety, I will explain the relationship between the Department and the Food Safety Authority of Ireland, whose representatives attended a meeting of the committee recently. The Department operates under a service contract with the FSAI. This arrangement started in 2000 and is subject to audit by the FSAI. The sectors included in the contract - basically, all our product areas - are listed in the written presentation. The Department, along with the Department of Health, is examining legislation to consider how the list can be extended to include animal feed.

The State has invested heavily over the years in food safety controls and infrastructure. The establishment of the FSAI provided an independent, science-based oversight of food safety controls, and this, together with the successful animal disease eradication programmes, our sophisticated animal traceability systems and a sustainable approach to production of food has led to our current position of being able to provide a very high level of reassurance to consumers at home and abroad, which is crucial due to our dependence on exports.

I am sorry that this has taken a little longer than I would have liked. To wrap up, the Department is a very large one with a huge reach and spread of activities. It is deep into a reorganisation that continues to make it more efficient and better adjusted to the demands and the resources available. We regard that reorganisation as an ongoing project and we have a strong reputation for our ability to reform. As well as doing that, we continue to carry out our day-to-day activities, and we have been benchmarked at a very high level against other member states in terms of the way we pay and the standards we maintain.

The challenges ahead include driving through the recommendations of Food Harvest 2020, which is a key element of our national recovery. We also need to protect what we already have under the CAP and the CFP and adapt these policies in a positive way for the sustainable development of our agrifood and fisheries sectors. We need to maintain our international reputation for high standards of food safety and similar standards for animal health and welfare. That is a sine qua non for an exporting country such as Ireland. We have invested in that and we cannot take chances with it. We are fully engaged in the process of making difficult adjustments in our costs and spending, as is every other Department, and that process continues.

I thank Mr. Moran. He need not worry about his presentation being lengthy. As there are so many new members, the overview was necessary and helpful. He has given a fair overview of how the Department works and how it interacts with other agencies and the Government.

I welcome the Secretary General and the officials from the Department. I thank the officials in nearly all of the offices I deal with as a public representative for their courtesy at all times when we contact them. That should be acknowledged because we contact them regularly and they try to facilitate us as far as possible in dealing with requests from constituents as a matter of priority.

Mr. Moran gave an overview of the Department. There are a whole raft of issues that we could deal with. He touched on the importance of the upcoming negotiations on the Common Agricultural Policy over the next year and a half or so. Since the legislative proposals were launched on 12 October, one of the issues is the use of 2014 as a reference year, although farmers may have to have an entitlement in 2011. I would like to hear what the officials think about this and perhaps explore it a little further.

Mr. Moran also touched on the issue of food safety. The Department of Health and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine are examining further legislative proposals on animal feed. I ask him to expand on what he sees coming down the tracks in that regard.

Any discussion with senior officials in the Department will deal with the ongoing issues with regard to payments. I know the Department is striving hard to get payments out to farmers, but some are still held up. There are a number of mapping issues, which are dealt with by the digitisation section. How many applications are still outstanding and how many farmers are still unpaid? How many land parcels are being digitised this year compared with last year or the year before? If Mr. Moran has those figures to hand, it would be useful.

With regard to the TB eradication scheme, it appears that throughout the country, especially in my own area, there is a re-emergence of TB in areas that were completely clear for ten, 15 or 20 years. Good animal husbandry is maintained by farmers, but still it seems to be coming back. I know the scheme is administratively heavy and hugely costly for the Department. Could Mr. Moran give figures in this regard, if they are to hand? What strides are being made?

I know that the number of staff in the Department has been reduced from 4,800 to 3,600, which represents a 25% decrease. Budgetary issues will be discussed over the next six to eight weeks, including the setting out of priorities. It is important the most vulnerable farmers are protected in any discussions that take place.

In the discussions we have had with various farmers organisations there are always rumours about hidden costs or costs which could be pared back or better used in the Department. There was a recent suggestion that some technical and veterinary officials in the Department are being paid as much as €80 an hour. I ask for clarification on whether that is true. It is important for the reputation of the Department and the Houses of the Oireachtas to put that rumour to bed.

My colleague, Deputy Barry, has done a lot of work. I ask the delegates to comment on the beet industry post-2015 and the new legislative proposals.

I welcome the delegates and thank them for presenting a clear outline of what they do.

I have observed a number of points, one of which is the single farm payment. Senator O'Neill, Deputy Deering and I have not received our single farm payments. If that is representative of who is in the room something must be happening, namely, digitisation. I spoke to a woman in the single farm payment unit who was extremely helpful and co-operative. I could not say enough about her.

The situation is odd because the lands where the anomalies are occurring are those for which applications have been submitted for nearly 20 years since the scheme began. The scheme has not become larger or smaller, yet we are having issues with digitisation last year and this year. The levels involved are 0.1 or 0.2 of a hectare. It is creating an administrative burden for the Department and a headache for me. These problems should not arise. There was no change in my case. Other cases are similar.

People are coming into my office and asking me what is happening. There are too many cases for comfort. Will the same problem happen next year? We need to sort it out for once and for all. I was not aware of the problem until I telephoned the Department the day after payments were issued. I would have loved to have known about it last April or May when the problem could have been sorted out with no hassle. It is too late now, especially for a home farm which has never been touched or altered.

On the comments of Deputy Moynihan on sugar, I know the Minister is highly supportive of the reintroduction of the sugar industry and I hope the Department officials are equally enthusiastic. It seems like a back flip to exit the industry and return to it. The delegates mentioned it in their comments and referred to the supply of stocks and scarce resources. Sugar is scarce and is keeping many food ingredient companies out of Ireland. It is hoped we will be back in the sugar industry by 2020.

In order to progress, we must make sure our productive land is producing at its full potential. I would be grateful if we tackled future obstacles head-on. Dairygold, one of the largest co-operatives, is in China this week. Does the Department have the resources and people to look at that market? It is enormous and its potential is huge. Does the Department have anybody dedicated to emerging markets?

I wish to raise one small issue which was not mentioned. I am a tillage farmer and one problem we have faced for many years is the drop in organic matter content in soil. It is linked to the single farm payment. If levels fall under 2% or 3% one will face rectification actions to sort it out. However, 60% of the greenhouse gas emissions in tillage farming emerged from fertilisers we buy and put on our crops.

In this country a lot of sludge emanates from local authorities and is going into waste rather than fertilisers, which is where it should be used. It is an area that is becoming more complex every year. I have spoken to many people involved in it. It is important because we need organic matter on our lands and it can be dealt with safely. The situation should not be over complicated.

I thank delegates for the briefing. It was informative and gave new members a good idea of the structure and management within the Department.

I have some questions. With the budget approaching and Votes being decided over the next a number of weeks, there will be a lot of discussion on what budget will be allocated to the Department and where savings can be made, irrespective of what will happen with capital allowances, in current expenditure.

The Secretary General mentioned staffing levels have reduced from 4,800 in 2005 to 3,600 now. Can he provide a breakdown on the numbers of permanent, part-time and contract workers? We will discuss the issue as improvements in technology, such as mapping and digitisation, mean the system can go live and we can make savings within the Department.

As part of the budget negotiations and the ongoing CAP review, I strongly suggest that whatever manner in which the Department or Minister makes a decision on future payments to farmers a good, effective and working balance should be struck between productive and non-productive farmers. The term "non-productive" is unfortunate and is heard far too often.

Some farmers have very strong food production units but others have limited options available to them. I would be very supportive of allowing such farmers to continue to remain on the land with some element of dignity. They can still provide a valuable rural resource, particularly in western regions. Such farmers could avail of disadvantaged payments. In many cases the issue is the maintenance of the suckler herd premium. In the short term, budget decisions, and in the longer term, CAP, will provide support.

On the €1.6 billion in funding, can the Department provide a breakdown of current and capital expenditure? Fisheries fall under the remit of the Department. It is a difficult and contentious area and is technical in nature. Not many officers are involved in it. There are a number of elements in fisheries and the CFP is a discussion for a later date.

One responsibility which comes directly under the control of the Department is the management of the fishery harbour centres throughout the country. There has been major capital investment in many centres in recent years. Their use needs to be diversified. They are strategic national assets which are well placed throughout the country, and each has great potential, not just for fisheries but for marine leisure and commercial activity to support rural economies.

I live in Castletownbere and the officials from the Department who are based there have been extremely proactive in recent times in the context of promoting the area. I am sure that is replicated in other coastal areas. The Department should give further support to these staff, particularly in the context of the potential with regard to the offshore mineral and oil and gas exploration industries. The potential in the context of marine leisure activities remains under-utilised. The ports to which I refer could prove extremely useful in the context of promoting an increase in activity in the marine leisure area.

Like previous speakers, I congratulate the Department on the co-operation of its officials with elected Members. If officials are not in a position to provide assistance, they indicate that. However, they always go out of their way to provide assistance - which is extremely welcome - and long may that continue.

I welcome Mr. Moran and thank him for his presentation. I also welcome his officials.

Farming has been the good news story for the past few years. Prior to that it was not seen as an occupation in which to become involved. We were dependent on the property sector in the early years of the previous decade. At that time, being involved in property was seen as sexy. Matters have moved on. In that context, we must be careful that we do not kill the goose that lays the golden egg. Agriculture in general and the agrifood sector in particular have the potential to get the economy up and running again in the coming years.

We are facing into a difficult budget and we must ensure that the cutbacks which will be implemented will not have a serious impact. Some form of stimulus must be put in place. Will Mr. Moran indicate what type of stimulus he would envisage being necessary in the context of ensuring, from the point of view of agriculture, that we remain on the road on which we are currently travelling?

With regard to the type of efficiencies the Department is seeking to secure, Deputy Moynihan referred earlier to technical staff. Are all of the staff in the Department involved in the ongoing efficiency review? I have heard rumours - and that is all they are - that some staff have not been asked to offer their opinions in respect of the cutbacks that will be required. Will Mr. Moran comment on that?

Reform of the CAP will be the major issue to be dealt with in the coming 12 to 18 months. I am glad we will try to keep what we already have at the very least. Within the context of the CAP, the issue of bureaucracy must be addressed. Most farmers want to get on with their business and the less paperwork they are obliged to complete the better. I accept that it is necessary to create a paper trail in respect of payments received from Brussels. However, we must ensure that the system in this regard becomes increasingly efficient as time progresses so that we might proceed with the work we hope to do.

After the reform of the CAP, Food Harvest 2020 is probably the most important issue with which we will be obliged to deal in the coming years. Will Mr. Moran indicate how he sees Food Harvest 2020 tying in with where matters stand at present and with potential cutbacks? What is his view on the super-levy which might come into play in the new year? There is great enthusiasm in Ireland for increased production, be it that relating to milk, grain or whatever. We need to encourage rather than obstruct such enthusiasm.

I have had a particular bugbear with regard to Teagasc in recent years. I stand open to correction but there appears to be a great deal of duplication in the work the Department does and that done by Teagasc. In the main, it appears to be a form-filling operation. As is the case with departmental officials, those who work for Teagasc assist farmers in completing forms relating to single farm payments, AEOS payments or whatever. Such form-filling appears to be Teagasc's main purpose and its advisory role appears to have become secondary. What is in store for Teagasc in the next five or ten years?

Like Deputy Harrington, I thank the staff of the Department for their assistance and co-operation. As the Deputy indicated, they have not been found wanting.

A large number of the questions I wished to put have already been asked. I concur with other members with regard to the staff of the Department. I have yet to come across an official who is anything other than helpful. On occasion, the information with which members come forward can be quite complicated and we require assistance in respect of navigating our way through it.

Members are sometimes approached by farmers who have applied for single farm payments and who indicate that they submitted their documentation a number of months previously. Is there a way to alter the system whereby it would not be at the last minute that applicants would discover that there is a problem with their applications in the context of maps, digitisation or whatever? We always encourage farmers who have outstanding correspondence from the Department to respond immediately so that their claims can be cleared for payment. That is perfectly understandable. I have been approached by individuals who indicated that they were not aware of something for three months, six months or whatever. It is sometimes the case that they ask us to do something on their behalf which they will not do themselves.

Mr. Moran referred to the savings in respect of office closure. We all understand that savings must be made. I live in Mayo and the offices in Claremorris and Ballina were closed. For a period it seemed to farmers and members of the public that the staff in those offices continued to work there. Farmers were obliged to travel to the office in Castlebar but their files had to be transferred to Ballina. That was an extremely cumbersome system. Have the difficulties in this regard been resolved? I presume the position which obtains in other counties in this regard is similar.

This is not the occasion on which to discuss the budget in great detail. However, we discussed the issue of spending for 2012 with the Minister and the Minister of State. What is the position with regard to payments not made before 31 December next? In other words, will moneys due this year but not paid until 2012 be included under next year's budget? Is there an element of sleight of hand taking place in this regard? In general, we are seeking a stimulus in respect of jobs, supports, and so on. However, such a stimulus is already in place in the agriculture sector. We must ensure that the various schemes will not be impacted upon in the context of the figures to which I refer and the way they are constructed for future years.

Has the Department considered working with the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources with regard to the development of an agri-energy or farm-energy policy? The committee also has responsibility in the area of communications, energy and natural resources and it may be giving consideration to this matter. I am of the view that both Departments have a role in the context of the development of a policy relating to biomass, biofuels and anaerobic digestion. In effect, what we need to do is to try to make every farm self-sufficient when it comes to energy needs. This is feasible and technically possible.

I feel obliged to refer to sheep tagging. A resolution must be found in respect of this matter as soon as possible. There must be a slightly different approach to that taken with cattle, because the nature of sheep is different and some practical solutions are required. I note payments still are outstanding from one or two 2010 schemes, especially in respect of the rural environment protection scheme, REPS, and the agri-environment options scheme, AEOS. Will this affect people's entitlement to payments in 2011 or 2012? Will this year's payments automatically be held up if the others have not been concluded?

My next point pertains both to forestry policy and wider discussions on our obligations to meet greenhouse gas emissions targets in parallel with trying, through the Food Harvest 2020 strategy, to increase the output of the agrifood production sector. I contend Ireland is in a unique position whereby it produces food in a manner that is at least as efficient as anywhere else from a carbon point of view. This point must be put into the argument to defend our expansion. This joint committee's predecessor, as well as the former Joint Committee on Climate Change and Energy Security, on which I was rapporteur on forestry, discussed using forestry as part of the land-use calculation for carbon mitigation measures.

Finally, I wish to raise something about which I am aware, albeit not very knowledgeable, namely, the commonage framework plans that are being revisited. The old REP schemes were perceived as being a method of compensating people for the impact of destocking and this was the only aspect of REPS that ever was perceived as a compensation measure. As the AEO schemes are somewhat less and are measures-driven, has the Department views or policies or a direction in which it intends to head with regard to these framework plans and the continuation of payments to people in the affected areas, such as Natura sites and others?

Mr. Tom Moran

I thank the Chairman and will begin by welcoming members' comments. I appreciate them because we work in a very large and physically spread-out Department and do our best to have a good relationship with all our clients and in particular with members of a joint committee such as this. Consequently, it is heartening, not so much for me as for the people at the coalface, to hear such compliments and I will make sure they are passed back to the relevant people. I will try to deal with the questions as they arose and hopefully will not omit too many of them. In respect of the specific question on the Common Agricultural Policy, CAP, pertaining to the reference year of 2014, that was and remains an issue. The CAP documents that were leaked before the actual publication of the proposals made clear that 2014 would be the date and considerable work was done behind the scenes to try to alleviate this. I believe we were fairly successful in doing this, with one or two other member states in particular, because the tying-in of a 2014 reference year with a point in 2011 goes a certain degree towards alleviating the concerns that underlay Deputy Moynihan's question. However, I caution members that a long road lies ahead before the end of this CAP negotiation. As members are aware, the strong likelihood and general view is that for better or for worse, this issue will land on Ireland's Presidency in the first half of 2013, as well as the fishing reform incidentally. There is a long way to go between now and then and it is unclear how this particular issue will develop. Consequently, wise people would not take any speculative action in that regard. However, the linking-in of 2014 as a reference year with 2011 would provide some linkage to current practice.

As for the point I mentioned on food safety, I was referring to the fact that under the existing food safety legislation regarding the Food Safety Authority of Ireland, FSAI, we contract the Department's food safety work to that authority. Therefore, it audits what we do as a Department, which is an excellent idea, and reports objectively to the Oireachtas through the Minister for Health. This provides a double lock to one's food safety system and it is something we have used abroad to open markets when we experienced difficulties. It is not simply the Department's controllers who state that Ireland's food safety is top dollar but an objective external authority also audits this and reports separately to the Minister for Health. The only area the authority does not have within its remit at present is feed but we are making arrangements to extend coverage of feed right back onto the farm. It looks as though legislative change will be required to do this but even in anticipation of that, we are considering the idea of a protocol of a working arrangement to ensure the authority has a much more comprehensive role and I believe that would work.

The issue of payments ran through a number of the questions and I will try to bunch them together. For example, a rough breakdown of the 20,000 outstanding single farm payment people shows it involves approximately 10,000 over-claims and 3,000 inspections that must be done, as well as approximately 500 deaths, unfortunately, and 6,500 cases involving digitisation. We have been obliged to carry out approximately 31,000 remapping exercises this year, as opposed to 71,000 last year. In a good question, Deputy Barry suggested this should be static and should remain the same after one first enters the system if there has been no change. While this might appear to be the case and I understand the reason people might say that, it is highly dynamic because the nature of farms tends to change with buildings, roads and even with the growth of scrub and so on. In addition, however, over the years the interpretation of what constitutes eligible land also has been honed and revised by the Commission on an ongoing basis. Consequently, member states have been obliged to ensure the mapping system, which ultimately is submitted by the farmers as the mapping comes in from the applicants for payment, must reflect the reality on the ground. A major issue arose last year when we were obliged to conduct 71,000 mapping exercises. We were obliged to do this to make absolutely sure that our land parcel identification system, LPIS, was fully up to scratch and would hold water against any criticism. I referred earlier to the risks that always are present in respect of disallowances and so on. It is a dynamic and while we try to do it as quickly and as well as we can, it is a two-way process. It comprises a submission from a farmer that the farm in question has been adjusted in some way. In particular, during the time when there was much building activity, sites were being sold and so on, such activities would have affected the typography of farms and therefore the eligible lands. Moreover, not only one's single payment but even one's REPS and environmental payments are linked into one's LPI system.

I may not necessarily answer questions in the order I received them but will try to be thematic. On the important question on staff numbers and the local office area, the reduction of 1,200 staff primarily involves full-time staff and we must continue to reduce numbers. Under the employment control frameworks, we must reach 3,411 by 2014, which means we have a further 160 to go. The staff reductions have mainly involved full-time staff. Deputy Moynihan mentioned the sugar beet issue. I believe the Minister has been clear on the position in respect of sugar beet. The removal of Ireland's sugar beet industry took place in a context. On countless occasions the Minister and I have outlined that context to this and the previous incarnation of this committee, involving the combination of the WTO arrangement, an EU international agreement, reform of the sugar regime and a buy-out package that was offered to the participants, including industry and farmers.

Leaving that aside, there was still the quota system. Our quota was renounced as part of that process. As the Deputies have mentioned, the new proposals provide for the ending of the quota system, a position that Ireland supports. Only last week at the Agriculture and Fisheries Council, the Minister, Deputy Coveney, set out the position - that we support the ending of sugar quotas. That therefore opens up the question of the feasibility or otherwise of the re-emergence of a sugar industry in Ireland. We have looked at two very good feasibility studies that have been submitted. There are a number of contingencies involved in those. One of the key contingencies is the projected price of sugar, which will be a determinant of where the economics of this will fall. As far as the Department is concerned the framework will involve support for the ending of the sugar regime with quotas. That therefore would leave member states free to produce without quotas as it will be with milk after 2015. Therefore, it becomes a commercial matter of the viability of a sugar producing plant. That will stand or fall on the projected economics of price and availability of raw material and the price at which that can be produced and so on, which are commercial matters. If we have a sugar industry - clearly nobody will claim to be against something that can work - it will be a matter for the proponents to ensure that it stands and holds water.

I have taken note of the questions and some of the specific questions are very relevant, for example, when there are minor changes in single payment why people cannot be told earlier. That is something I will review with the key people involved. I know we do it as soon as we can but I take the point that the earlier people know the better. Deputy Barry mentioned very small adjustments - 0.1% of a change. If one were devising a scheme, one might regard that as a perfectly acceptable way to run a scheme. Unfortunately this is done under the sharp watchful eye and searchlight of the Commission and its auditors, and is also based on the experience of other member states. One of the biggest risks is that the Commission will disallow and will insist a particular area is not eligible or that a map does not coincide with the actuality on the ground for a particular reason even if it is small. We will come across much of that as the other member states that are dealing with that kind of disallowance try to argue.

I was at a Council of Ministers meeting in Sweden when it held the Presidency. As is often the case, we visited a farm which is a very useful part of it. The farmer pointed out a lovely field with trees and said that the land was not eligible under single payment. A non-specialist would wonder why not, given that it was part of his farm. However, it was not eligible because the tree cover was too extensive according to the criteria being applied. It is a very difficult strict issue. The entire basis of the single payment is a fund and a quantity of eligible land. When that is translated down to individual level, I can see how it could become a difficulty for an individual if, for example, the furze or the scrub is too overgrown and it is not eligible agriculture land. Therefore, it is disallowed and adjustments need to be made on the mapping.

One Deputy - Deputy Barry I believe - said he hoped the enthusiasm of the officials matches the enthusiasm of the Minister. As he knows at the moment we are blessed with two very enthusiastic Ministers on a range of areas and he can rest assured that the enthusiasm of the officials is as strong in all these areas, including in the area of sugar as I mentioned earlier.

I could not agree more that productive land should be fully used. As has been said in all contributions here, agriculture will be a key element in the country's recovery. The enthusiastic Department team we have are all very pleased that there has been such a resurgence in agriculture here, which is back to its rightful place. It is very heartening to work in such a situation and it demands from us a quid pro quo in terms of drive and enthusiasm which we can give. Part and parcel of that is that we must use the resources the country has to the optimum. Food demand is increasing as the world population increases. We have the capacity to produce and it goes without saying that we should maximise the output from that land. We would describe it as sustainable intensification. However, as Deputy Deering said, that does not mean we should lose sight of farmers and producers who are in different circumstances. The schemes we have in place and the policy orientation outlined by the Minister have made it very clear that those areas and farmers also must be taken into account. He is right to highlight the need for balance between those.

As everybody else seems to be going to China, I am delighted that Dairygold is also. We have paid great attention to China as have all other countries owing to its growth in food consumption. We have identified it as a key growth market for our products. The Chinese agriculture Minister came here shortly after the change of Government. We brought him around the country and gave him a very good exposé of what we can do. On the Saturday morning at the end of the week we signed a memorandum of understanding. The key point was that not only did he see the capacity we had and our ability to supply some of the product China needs in the future, but he was also extremely impressed with the controls and the systems. China has had its issues in the very recent past with food safety. For example, it had a melamine contamination in baby food and with other products. As the Chinese do not take chances with that they come to people like us who stand over our products. When we invest in food safety, with departmental officials wandering through factories and farms inspecting all sorts of details, it is not because we want to control and check. It is because with 80% of our product going to export markets we must do that and stay ahead of the posse. It is heartening a country such as China is recognising it.

China is very important and Bord Bia has a presence there albeit not as significant as we would like. We work very well and closely with our embassy in China. The Minister has already announced that he will travel to China as part of a delegation - we met the Chinese Ambassador this week in the Department. China is getting considerable attention. It has potential for our milk and meat. We are trying to reopen the market for beef and we are involved in serious exchange of documentation. I have been to China a few times on business and my experience is that there is much exchange of documentation on scientific fact and then they make a decision over which we can stand. A considerable amount goes on behind the scenes before we can do business. I agree with the comments made on the decline in the use of organic fertiliser. The Department takes a strong view that the productive use of organic fertiliser should be pushed. Perhaps I should not say this given the weather we experienced yesterday but the Ministers for the Environment, Community and Local Government and Agriculture, Food and the Marine recently agreed to extend the spreading period for slurry to benefit of farmers. I thought about this yesterday while stuck in the rain for four hours trying to leave the city. The blue sky today is a change. It is recognised that organic fertiliser is a resource that should be used. I accept the point made both on that issue and sludge.

Is there any hope that the extension to the slurry spreading season will be further extended given the recent bad weather? Members have been receiving many telephone calls on this issue today.

Mr. Tom Moran

I can imagine that is the case but this is not a matter for me to decide. A two week extension has been provided until the end of October.

In Northern Ireland the extension is open-ended.

Mr. Tom Moran

Decisions on this matter are for the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government and, as such, I will leave the issue with him.

It is on the Minister's desk.

Mr. Tom Moran

I will leave it where it belongs.

We have noted members' useful comments on the budget, its breakdown, the figures, the manner in which the Department operates it and so forth. We can provide the relevant figures if necessary. The expenditure review process was a detailed, bottom-up examination of everything the Department does and all heads of division were involved. It was a highly meticulous exercise in which we went through every budget line and sought the views of all of the players involved. The heads of division also dealt directly with their own divisions. All of the hard questions were asked. The process was undertaken to identify how best to manage a considerably diminished and diminishing budget in the context of driving forward an expansionist and developmental policy, as set out in the 2020 strategy. This a difficult challenge which the Minister and Government will face in the coming weeks. Every stone was looked under as part of the expenditure review process and, as members will be aware, it has now reached a particular stage. The Minister outlined to the joint committee the balance he wishes to strike between developmental matters, disadvantaged areas and so forth. I will leave the issue at that.

On the specifics of the budget and the breakdown of the €1.6 billion allocation, capital expenditure amounted to €269 million, while current expenditure amounted to €1.37 billion. The former is, therefore, a substantial proportion of the overall departmental budget.

I could not agree more with Deputy Harrington's view on making greater use of the harbour asset in the context of sea fisheries. He makes an excellent point. All six fishery harbours which fall within the remit of the Department have benefited from significant investment. Killybegs, for example, received substantial investment in recent years. The key is to leverage this investment and ensure the assets are best used not only for fishing, but whatever other commercial activity and development best suits. A group established to report on other activities or works that could be provided at Killybegs to obtain the best value from the asset is due to report soon.

A number of references were made to the way in which we stimulate the agricultural economy. The 2020 process is a plan developed and driven by the industry in conjunction with the Department, which took a behind-the-scenes role and provided a large amount of the relevant material. It is constrained by the fact that it has been developed for a period during which substantial Exchequer resources will not be available. It is heartening that much of the work was done by the industry and its various sectors, all of which have been bought into the process. Where recommendations - the report makes 291 of them - are made that the Department is to fund, they have been taken into account by the Minister, including in respect of the budget. Such recommendations have been made, for example, in the area of research and development, the dissemination of best practice, improvements in efficiencies at farm level and so forth. One of the questions asked about Teagasc put a finger on that point, so to speak. The secret to an effective organisation such as Teagasc is to ensure not only that it is up to speed and engaging in best practice in primary and applied research and working with the various players in the industry but also that the dissemination process is such as to maximise efficiencies at farm level.

We have in place a system of dairy discussion groups, as they are known and of which members will be aware. We are satisfied that this is an excellent means of increasing output and efficiency at farm level. We have examined how such systems operate in other countries. We are receiving phenomenal feedback on the groups, including monetary measurements on the gain in profitability at farm level experienced by participants. We must pay great attention to the dissemination of best practice.

Deputy Deering asked an excellent and pertinent question on milk. Expanding milk output by 50% by 2020 following the end of quotas in 2015 raises the issue of the soft landing on milk. Members will be familiar with the issue as it has been discussed at various levels in the Oireachtas. A key aspect of this discussion is how one gets from the current position to meeting the 2020 objective. As Deputy Deering knows better than anyone else present, one does not switch on milk overnight. I have to be careful on this issue because there are farmers who are bent on expanding output when quotas end, especially given that milk prices are hovering around 33 or 34 cent per litre. We do not want such farmers to suffer a serious belt by being hit with a super-levy in the years leading up to the ending of quotas as this would mean they would start off the expansionary post-quota period with a huge bill around their necks. If we send out the wrong message to farmers that the current approach will change, they may take the foot off the pedal and lash away which would get them into difficulty.

All of us have a responsibility to try to negotiate this issue. We continue to make a serious case at European Union level with the Commissioner and other member states on the possibility of enhancing the soft landing approach, under which milk output is increasing by 1% per annum in the years leading up to the ending of quotas. Overall, we would have secured an increase of approximately 9%. We are still negotiating and only last week had a bilateral meeting with the German Minister on the issue. We are still trying to fight to secure an adjustment to the fat content levy. While I do not like to state the obvious, this means that if someone delivers a certain quantity of milk, an adjustment is made to reflect the fat level in the delivery, thus changing the delivery figure. We are trying to secure an adjustment to this mechanism which would provide us with a further increase in quota. It is proving well-nigh impossible to get any movement on this issue. The Minister raised the issue with his French counterpart in Paris and the German Minister in Luxembourg. Why did we raise it with France and Germany? If the Commission does not have France and Germany behind it on this point, there will be no movement. It does not want to open the health check package. The Chairman will be aware of this point. There are a number of member states which hit the quota last year, including Cyprus, Austria, Denmark and the Netherlands, and Germany was 0.7% under its quota. The others paid a super levy. We did not, although that was only by the skin of our teeth. Denmark, the Netherlands and Ireland are particularly driving some kind of adjustment.

To summarise, the Minister is doing everything possible to see if that can be achieved one way or another. In the absence of action, the quota system applies rigidly, and those who go over it will have to pay a substantial levy of 28 cent per litre. It is a sensitive enough issue.

I know there was a butterfat adjustment. Was that discussed at the Council meeting last week or on the margins?

Mr. Tom Moran

It was discussed at a bilateral meeting.

There was some information to the effect that the reduction in the super levy of 28 cent per litre might be considered. I presume that is also a non-runner.

Mr. Tom Moran

It is a non-runner.

The only available option is the butterfat adjustment.

Mr. Tom Moran

Currently the only option that seems in any way possible - there is no indication anything is coming - is a butterfat adjustment. I would not advise a producer to base any delivery pattern on an adjustment to the super levy process. There is no give on the other options, including the reduction of the levy, increasing the overall quota or applying a European flexi-milk idea that would work if some countries did not meet the quota. The European milk output last year was approximately 6% below quota, which is unfortunate. That is a battle we are continuing to fight but it is laced with caution.

The bureaucracy theme ran through a number of comments. We are very strong advocates for a simplification process at EU level, as well as national schemes. We do not want schemes and their control to be made more complex. Some of our underlying criticisms of some of the new CAP proposals relate very much to the fact that they will make matters very complex and difficult to control and administer. Farmers will find them difficult to operate. We agree with members and we have allied ourselves with a range of countries with regard to simplification, and we do not believe the Commission proposals will aid further simplification; in certain areas it seems to go in the opposite direction.

The idea of flexibility is high on our priority list and a member state should have a certain amount of flexibility to manage the single payment system to suit that state's needs. Although it is not fundamental, a factor is that if the flexibility exists, the process can be simpler and more suited to the conditions applying in a country.

I am not sure that there is duplication between Teagasc and the Department. The Department does not get involved in form filling, and in reality it is a matter for the farmer. If a farmer chooses to get advice from Teagasc or agriculture consultants about filling in forms and so on, that will ultimately be a matter for the farmer. As part of the expenditure review we are considering the idea of ensuring that where services, locations and facilities can be shared, we are open to Teagasc suggestions. We have had discussions in that respect.

The issue of payments is pertinent. Members know the Exchequer works on a year-by-year basis so if payments are not made in a particular year, there is no such thing as carrying over to the next year. There are Votes for each year. If any Department has a liability in a year that is carried over, the budget negotiations for the following year must reflect it. That is not the case for EU funding and if a single payment is not paid in 2011, it can still be paid in 2012, although there is a date in June by which it must be paid in the following year. The idea of carrying over does not apply.

The Chairman asked some pertinent questions and made some very useful comments. The energy policy is one of the priorities in the Department and we have a small willow and miscanthus scheme, which has a relatively small number of hectares involved. That should be pursued, not just with willow and miscanthus but with a wider contribution of farming to energy. That links very much to forestry as a sequestration means and how that should be reflected in the carbon debate. The Chairman put it very well in terms of carbon efficiency in the production.

In Ireland we are working very hard with partners abroad and even beyond the EU to ensure the debate on climate change is not taken apart from the debate on food. The world population is growing and there is an increasing demand for food. Aside from this there is a very valid debate on climate change. Those debates are not separate and must mingle; if we produce food efficiently from a carbon perspective, which we do, that should be reflected. The Department, along with Bord Bia, has been quite a way ahead in this respect, and we are measuring carbon coming from food production. Ultimately, that carbon efficiency and sustainability of the product will be a big selling point for consumers, especially those in Europe. It used to be the case that quality and some level of safety was all that was required but that is taken as read if there is a sophisticated marketing approach. Food quality must be correct and food safety must be top-notch. Sustainability will become equally valid. We are looking to get a badge of carbon-efficient and sustainable production as a food-producing country with a drive towards 2020.

I take on board the points made by the Chairman. There was a suggestion that there should be a different approach to sheep tagging, which has been a difficult enough area. We got a derogation for sheep going directly to slaughter and most animals may therefore continue without electronic tagging. We are continuing to work with various organisations to finalise the arrangements for fatteners but we must arrive soon at a solution as the risk is that we could find ourselves in breach of EU legislation with the attendant consequences I mentioned. It is too important a sector to take those kinds of risks. I understand the specific point made and there was some reference to it in some of the journals this week.

With regard to outstanding agri-environmental options scheme payments, it is a complicated scheme that is very different to the rural environmental protection scheme, REPS. The word "options" is in the title because participants work off a menu and take various options rather than taking a whole-farm REPS approach. It is and has been complicated. We are making very good progress on getting out the payments for 2010, which relate to a small period of the first months of 2010 and a relatively small amount of money overall. We have reverted to people with queries and once they have been answered we will be able to move forward with the rest of the payments. We hope to make the balancing payment for 2010 and the first payment for 2011 before the end of this year. It is a more substantial payment. We are making very good progress.

It has been a difficult scheme to drive and I appreciate the comments made. Our staff are working flat out on it. It is sometimes classified as being a simple digitisation problem but that is not the case. There is a digitisation issue, particularly when people were allowed to divide a parcel of land in the application for certain grasslands and so on. It was a new issue for us and meant we had to reconcile the maps for single payments with those for AEOS and therein lies the difficulty. We have had to go back to people and try to get a more accurate reflection of the land.

Where capital expenditure has arisen and an applicant has to submit receipts it is essential that we receive them, but we are not receiving them as quickly as we would like. We cannot pay people until that is the case. We have asked farmers to submit their receipts for capital expenditure and make sure they are correct. I understand approximately 6,000 farmers are involved with capital investment under AEOS, which slows the system down. It is in everybody's interests that the system is speeded up.

I have some very useful information from people who are experts which I will kick myself for not using. Deputy Barry asked a question on organic matter. Soil surveys show that Ireland is well within the compliance rates for organic matter. The nitrates review in 2010 made adjustments for those who want to utilise more organic manure and cereals. We are talking to the EU about simplifying the rules on spreading sludge. Unless I have left anything obvious out, I suggest we take the points that have been made and revert to the committee.

I thank Mr. Moran. Senator O'Neill had to speak in the Seanad.

I apologise for leaving during the presentation.

Mr. Tom Moran

That is no problem.

It is hard to arrive in the middle of a meeting and start asking questions. The presentation touched on the budget. Is it true that approximately €350 million is to be taken out of the agriculture budget this year?

Mr. Tom Moran

Yes.

The percentage seems higher than for any other Department. At a time when agriculture is doing well and driving the economy we should enhance agri-schemes. When the Secretary General meets the Department of Finance he should emphasise the importance of keeping money in the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine rather than taking a higher percentage cut than other Departments.

Mr. Moran dealt with payments. A couple of farmers have been in contact with me, one of whom was digitised last year which held up his payment. He was inspected this year and there is no problem, yet he has been told he will have to wait six weeks for payment. The maps are the exact same, therefore I cannot see why there cannot be a fast track system.

If there is no problem why does it take six weeks to issue a payment? I know somebody has to make a report but I presume that could be done within a week. The person concerned feels hard done by because he was held up last year and will be again this year.

Mr. Tom Moran

They are separate things. Digitisation is carried out to ensure the accuracy of the map in regard to the database. The person to whom Senator O'Neill referred, along with 70,000 others, would have been digitised last year. The selection of people for inspection is based on risk assessment. There is a complicated means of choosing the percentage of the overall number of recipients which are inspected, which involves local inspections where somebody carries out 17 different measures or whatever applies to a particular person's farm to ensure he or she is compliant.

I understand 3,000 farms are inspected. We try to do it as fast as we can but it takes a certain amount of time to carry out the work involved. It is fairly complicated to carry out an inspection and then report on it. If we can speed up the process we will. I can guarantee the committee that farmers are not being delayed unduly.

The farmer to whom I referred was held up last year due to digitisation. This year he has had an inspection and the inspector said there was no problem in terms of the 17 measures to be complied with. I cannot see why a report cannot be issued and a button pressed, which is all that is needed. It should be done within a week or two rather than six weeks. I have had inspections and I know what they involve and how long they take. I ask Mr. Moran not to forget to fight with the Department of Finance.

Mr. Tom Moran

Far be it from me to fight with that eminent Department. The points made on the importance of agriculture and the need to continue to invest in it are made continuously by us and the Minister.

I thank the Secretary General and officials for attending the meeting. The Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine is the relevant line Department for, as the Secretary General said, restoring one of our key natural resources and economic drivers to its rightful position which was unfortunately overlooked. We have to be mindful of that.

The role of the committee is to monitor and assist in any way it can, whether as an intermediary between other Departments and line Ministers. The Department was the first to issue us with a list of contact names and numbers for the many different relevant sections, which is appreciated. It is very a important Department and it is important for the industry that it is seen to be doing its job correctly. We will meet the officials again.

The joint committee adjourned at 5 p.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 8 November 2011.
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