Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 1 Mar 1928

Vol. 10 No. 8

JOINT COMMITTEE ON SEANAD. - MESSAGE FROM THE DAIL.

CATHAOIRLEACH

Dáil Eireann has passed the following Resolution:—

"That the Dáil concurs with the Seanad in their Resolution communicated to the Dáil on the 15th day of February: That it is expedient that a Joint Committee consisting of five members of the Dáil and five members of the Seanad, with the Chairman of each House ex officio, be set up to consider and report on the changes, if any, necessary in the constitution and powers of, and methods of election to Seanad Eireann."

Having regard to the terms of the Resolution, namely, "That it is expedient," etc., and it having been adopted in the same form by the Dáil and sent back in that form, I think it would be more prudent, though perhaps not absolutely necessary, that a formal resolution for the setting up of such a Committee be moved. Accordingly I call on Senator O'Farrell.

Mr. O'FARRELL

I formally move:—

"That a Joint Committee of both Houses be set up to consider and report on the changes, if any, necessary in the constitution and powers of, and methods of election to Seanad Eireann.

Mr. BENNETT

I second the motion.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. O'FARRELL

I move:—

"That Senators Bennett, Douglas, Jameson, O'Hanlon and O'Farrell, with the Cathaoirleach, ex officio, be appointed to serve on such Committee."

I am moving these names, but, of course, quite obviously they are open to amendment. I take it that, seeing that we have such an assembly of backwoodsmen, if I may so term them, here to-day we have plenty of material for selecting a representative Committee. But, at all events, those are the names that I put forward.

Sir T. ESMONDE

I second the motion.

Dr. GOGARTY

It is open to one to propose another list?

CATHAOIRLEACH

It undoubtedly is. I feel very strongly on this matter, but, of course, after all, it is a matter for the House. I would like to mention this, that you cannot move a different Committee, or the substitution of another name, without either deleting the names of the members, or deleting a particular name to make room for the particular candidate proposed. I am afraid that that would inevitably lead to a rather unpleasant discussion as to the merits and demerits of different Senators inter se, and in view of the very responsible and momentous duties which this Committee will have to discharge, I do think that, unless there is some substantial ground of objection to any of the names that Senator O'Farrell has put forward, and which, if I may say so, seem to me to have been put forward with great fairness and with great regard to the different interests concerned, it would be a much more useful proceeding if we could adopt his resolution.

Dr. GOGARTY

It really comes to this, that on account of the rule which made it invidious for anybody to propose other names the House loses its liberty.

CATHAOIRLEACH

I cannot prevent you from moving an amendment.

Dr. GOGARTY

I was going to suggest Senators Bennett, Jameson——

CATHAOIRLEACH

If there is going to be a controversy raised about the personnel of the Committee, I would suggest to the House that the wisest and most dignified course would be to have a ballot, and let each Senator vote for five names, the five who receive the highest number to be placed on the Committee.

Mrs. WYSE POWER

A ballot of the whole House.

Mr. HOOPER

I suggest that this matter should be referred to the Committee of Selection.

CATHAOIRLEACH

I think not. It is too important. I think the House would not like to let it out of their own hands. I think each Senator is entitled to voice his views, if he wants to do so, in the selection of a Committee. This may determine for all time, at least for a considerable number of years, the fate and the future of our House.

Mr. HOOPER

The Committee of Selection might select these names, or it might not.

CATHAOIRLEACH

We do not get any further. The Committee would select each name, they would come back to us, and it would be open to any Senator to move an amendment.

Mr. HOOPER

But any list that came forward would have the authority of the Committee of Selection behind it, and it would have very much more weight with members of the House than any name that would be proposed by an individual Senator.

CATHAOIRLEACH

I think you are a bit sanguine.

Mr. HOOPER

It seems natural that names coming from a Committee of Selection would carry more weight.

Colonel MOORE

I suggest that as one list has been read out, if any Senator wishes to read out another one, he should have the right to do so.

CATHAOIRLEACH

I said so from the very start. I only suggested that Senators might consider that it would be wiser, if there is going to be a controversy about the names of Senators to act on the Committee, and be the simplest and the fairest course to all concerned, to take a ballot, each Senator voting for five names.

Dr. GOGARTY

I am perfectly agreeable to that, because if the invidious duty is thrust on me of naming a person I would have to show my objection to a person on the other list. The ladies of the House are not represented on this list. If I want to nominate a lady I have to brand with a stigma a person who would come off the list. That is the only reason I have a list. I only want to get one person changed, and I had to dilute the list before I deleted it.

Mr. McLOUGHLIN

I suggest that Senator O'Farrell's motion should be put to the House. If it is lost we can have a ballot.

CATHAOIRLEACH

I am afraid I could not do that, because on that motion I could not prevent another Senator moving an amendment to substitute A for B.

Mr. HOOPER

Might I point out that this motion is a departure from the usual practice of the House?

CATHAOIRLEACH

No, the House has never given up the right of making a selection.

Mr. HOOPER

I quite understand that there is no objection to it on the ground of order, but the practice of the House has been for the Committee of Selection to choose the names to go on committees of this kind.

CATHAOIRLEACH

That is not the practice in the case of Joint Committees.

Sir THOMAS ESMONDE

I seconded this proposal because the names seemed to be admirably chosen, and I took it that the motion would go through as a matter of course. At the same time, Senator Gogarty is perfectly right in his contention, in which you, sir, supported him, that the House has always reserved to itself the right to appoint these Committees, and particularly in the case of a Joint Committee. It is no derogation from the operations of the Committee of Selection. That Committee acts in the usual way. Despite the existence of the Committee of Selection, naturally the House has a right to decide on whom it shall appoint on Committees. That is particularly so in the case of a Joint Committee. The House is quite justified in insisting on its rights. There is no reason, supposing we feel we should appoint others than the names mentioned, why we should not discuss them frankly, amicably and without any controversy. At the same time, might I say that the suggestion made by you, sir, appears to me to be a very obvious way out of the difficulty. If the House chooses to ballot for five names then it is settled that the five that get the largest number of votes will be selected. There is no question of referring the matter to the Committee of Selection, to make speeches or institute invidious comparisons. I think, if the House agrees, that your suggestion was an admirable one.

Dr. GOGARTY

In order not to take up the time of the House, I withdraw my suggestion.

CATHAOIRLEACH

Does the House agree to adopt the suggestion I made?

Mr. McLOUGHLIN

Certainly not, as we might have the names of Senators put on who would not act.

CATHAOIRLEACH

I do not think there is very much in that point, for this reason, that if any Senator who was selected as a result of the ballot declined to act it would be open to the House to appoint a substitute.

Mr. McLOUGHLIN

And have another election. I submit that Senator O'Farrell's motion should be put to the House.

On a show of hands it was decided to put the motion to the House.

Mr. O'FARRELL

I am sorry there was so much discussion about the matter, as I think we are really making ourselves appear childish in discussing in such detail a matter of this kind. Notwithstanding its unpleasantness, I suggest that it is better to accept an amendment.

Motion put and declared carried.

CATHAOIRLEACH

I congratulate the House, as I think they have taken the dignified and proper course. This is a Committee the members of which will have to give constant attendance and will require to be men of training and experience.