Turf Development Bill, 1953—Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. Lemass)

The main purpose of this Bill is to increase the amount that may be advanced to Bord na Móna to carry out the development programme which they have undertaken. Under the existing legislation, there is a limit of £8,270,000 to such advances and it is proposed to raise that limit to £14,000,000.

The other provisions of the Bill are designed (1) to make additional provision for the board's housing schemes; (2) to provide for the making of a contract of service with the managing director of the board, and (3) to provide for the introduction of pension schemes for the board's staff and whole-time members. Senators are probably aware that Bord na Móna were directed to undertake schemes for the development of bogs for fuel, each designed to achieve a target of 1,000,000 tons per year production at the end of a ten-year period. The first programme, which was launched in 1946, is due to reach that level of production in 1956. The additional funds are required for the completion of that programme. The estimate of cost originally prepared has, of course, proved to be inaccurate by reason of the higher cost of materials and the higher wage rates now prevailing and also because a greater degree of mechanisation has been found practicable than was contemplated when the scheme was being prepared.

For the second development programme, the provision in the 1950 Act only covered initial expenditure. It was fully recognised that new legislation to raise the limit of advances would be required before that programme would be brought to its full development stage. Originally, that programme was also designed to secure an annual production of 1,000,000 tons of sod turf by 1960 but it has been modified in the meantime and the aim now is to secure an annual production of 2,250,000 tons of milled peat by that year for the power stations which are being built by the E.S.B. in the vicinity of the board's bogs.

Of the additional provision which this Bill proposes to make, a sum of £1,480,000 is required for the first development programme and the balance of £4,250,000 to complete the provision required for the second programme.

The board has been constructing houses for its workers and it was entitled to draw, and was drawing, from the Central Fund grants towards the cost of these houses. Under the 1950 Act, however, the grants were limited to £180 per house but it was intended that they should be supplemented by grants of £400 per house from the Transition Development Fund. As it happened, that fund was wound up before the board were able to avail of its provisions and this Bill is designed to authorise the board to receive grants of £570 per house in respect of every house built by it—that is, those already built as well as those yet to be built—which is adequate, with some assistance from the board's own funds, to enable these houses to be let to their workers at reasonable rents.

As regards the provisions of the Bill which relate to the board's own organisation, there are two things to be said. The present managing director of the board is an officer of the Department of Industry and Commerce who, however, has been seconded almost continuously to Bord na Móna for this work since 1934. The view is that the time has come to regularise his position, to establish him permanently as managing director of the board and to enter into a contract of service with him in the normal way.

The view is also held that the time has come when it is desirable to have pension provisions for the board's permanent staff and for the managing director of the board. The board is now a large organisation which is operating successfully on a project which is of great national importance and it is desirable that its permanent staff should feel that security in respect of the future which the establishment of a pension scheme will give.

So far as the managing director is concerned, the provisions of the Bill are permissive. A scheme may be prepared and brought into operation, subject to its being submitted to both Houses of the Oireachtas. So far as the other members of the board are concerned, the Bill proposes to make it mandatory on the board to prepare such a scheme and to submit it to the Minister for Industry and Commerce who, subject to the concurrence of the Minister for Finance, may approve of it and submit it to the Oireachtas.

The position as regards the work of Bord na Móna is that the production under the first development plan is proceeding in accordance with expectations. The quantity of sod turf produced from the bogs developed under that plan last year was 568,000 tons. It will be, it is anticipated, substantially larger this year and there is no reason to think that an annual output of 1,000,000 tons will not be realised by 1956.

In the case of the second development plan, it is, of course, to be understood that none of these bogs is yet in production, but the development work on the bogs is proceeding satisfactorily and again there is no reason to anticipate that the production anticipated will not, in fact, be achieved. The board is now in the position that its operations are yielding a profit. The board had to take over certain debts due to the State by its predecessor, the Turf Development Board, and these debts, on the transfer date, amounted to £434,561. By 1st April, 1952, that debt had been reduced to £261,713 and it was then arranged that the sum outstanding would be funded and repaid by means of half-yearly annuities over a period of 25 years. The first of these annuities was paid on 1st October, 1952.

Under the legislation which established it, the board was exempted from the obligation to pay interest on advances made prior to 21st June, 1951. That exemption from interest charges has now expired and the board is liable, since 1st April, 1952, for interest upon all advances made to it. Interest payments amounting to £109,042 have already been made. The board was not merely able to meet these charges and effect payment of the annuity for the wiping out of the inherited debt and make reasonable appropriations to depreciation and other reserves, but also to announce a reduction in the price of its product early this year, which would probably, in any event, have been necessitated by reason of the fall in coal prices about that time.

The board is also engaged in the production of peat moss. Its experience in that regard was that the market which it had opened in the United States of America was proving less remunerative than it originally was, mainly due to higher shipping freights and to growing competition from continental countries who, in the board's opinion, must be selling at less than production cost in their desire to get dollars by any means, or are enjoying the advantage of lower shipping freights than are possible here. However, against the difficulties in the dollar market for peat moss litter, the home market is expanding very rapidly and also markets in the Six-County area and in Britain, and there is every expectation that the board's output and sales of peat moss litter this year will be higher than in previous years and will continue to grow as the market expands.

The importance of the work of Bord na Móna in providing fuel for power stations is perhaps best emphasised by the fact that the maximum development from water power which is now thought to be possible in this country will provide about 1,000,000,000 units annually which is less than our present consumption. The plans of the E.S.B. made in conjunction with Bord na Móna involve the establishment of a number of new power stations using either sod or milled peat and coming into production to meet the growth in the demand between now and 1960, being adequate, but no more than adequate, by that year to meet the anticipated consumption. It is, however, not easy to expedite the rate of development of bogs for fuel production. A period of three years is normally required for draining a bog before production can start at all and the development of the bog from that on must be carried out in accordance with its characteristics. There is no means by which the output from a bog could be increased beyond that which the board has planned because of these characteristics of the work.

With these new power stations, however, coupled with the water power stations which are being constructed or planned and the existing installed generating capacity of the board, it is anticipated that output will keep ahead of demand, even though one would prefer to see a wider margin during the period between now and 1960. The board has not yet attempted to make plans for the period after 1960 in view of possible technical developments which may take place during that period. It is necessary for the E.S.B. to have its construction programme settled more or less five years ahead, so that before the beginning of 1955 consideration of the programme after 1960 will have to be undertaken.

So far as the board's housing is concerned, it has constructed to date 366 houses and has let most of these to its employees. The aim of the board is to have houses to spare in each area if it can. The idea is that suitable workers can be attracted to permanent employment in the board's service in these areas if housing accommodation can be offered to them, and for that reason the board has aimed at keeping its housing programme in advance of its actual allocation of tenancies. In some cases local authorities have pressed the board to transfer to the board's houses workers employed by the board at present occupying county council houses, but the board have resisted that pressure believing that there is no reason why they should provide houses for workers who are already comfortably housed in the locality of their employment.

The idea behind the board's housing schemes is that they should make facilities available which will attract workers into the area in which there is employment. The county councils have, of course, been reluctant themselves to provide houses solely for the board's employees because of the fact that most of these bog schemes are estimated to have a life of about 25 years and the normal provision for financing county council housing schemes requires a longer period for the repayment of the loans. There are at present 104 houses under construction.

The board is maintaining an experimental station at Droichead Nua, County Kildare, a station at which all problems connected with the production and utilisation of turf are investigated and from which close contact is maintained with developments in other countries of interest to it. Its aim has been, of course, to mechanise the work completely and it has already made considerable progress in that direction. Through mechanisation economies in manpower are possible and the work becomes more attractive to those engaged in it. Drainage operations have been almost completely mechanised and work is constantly proceeding at the experimental station in the design and construction of experimental machines of various types to cope with the problems which are experienced on the board's bogs. The station has given particular attention to methods of securing the most economic and efficient utilisation of turf for industrial purposes. A number of Irish manufacturers have, as a result of cooperation with the board, succeeded in introducing domestic turf-burning appliances which are not only highly efficient but attractive in design and finish.

Recently the station has designed a special method of burning turf in industrial installations and several factories have installed it. Those factories which installed it have confirmed the board's belief that not only have these installations secured a high degree of combustion efficiency but also have made possible a saving in fuel costs as compared with installations using coal or oil. That achievement is one on which, I think, the board and its staff deserve to be congratulated.

The economic advantage to the country of Bord na Móna's activities is obvious. The social advantage should be equally obvious. As a result of the board's work and the decision to develop the peat resources of the country for fuel production, employment has been introduced into areas of the country where the need for it was greatest and where other economic activities did not seem likely to succeed. When the full programme of the board and the associated programme of the E.S.B. have been completed, it will have produced very considerable results in the social circumstances of many of the areas of the country, midland and western, which at one time seemed to offer difficult problems.

The effect should also be to encourage what is the Government's desire, the decentralisation of industry, and the availability not merely of electric power but of cheap fuel where electric power is not suitable in the bog areas, should in the course of time tend to attract new industrial activities there. The work of the board has secured universal approval and for that reason I can with some confidence recommend this Bill to the Seanad.

Business suspended at 6 p.m. and resumed at 7 p.m.

Mr. Baxter

This is a measure which is acceptable to every side of the House and every Party in the country and so it is easy to debate. For myself, I welcome this measure. I think the proposals which it contains in regard to provision for housing for the staff and provision for the future of the employees in regard to superannuation are to be welcomed. They will give a sense of security to the people employed in this scheme in regard to the superannuation which, I think, is of the utmost importance because the morale of people working in a scheme like this is something which it is essential to maintain.

There are times when we hear the sound of our own voices and when we listen to the voices of our opponents and we feel disposed to be rather depressed about our own achievements and our hopes for the future. Yet I think it is only mere justice to us on both sides of the House to say that we have certain achievements to our credit and to the country's credit which it is time we would all speak of with pride.

I know I cannot say it of the Minister specifically, but there were days when the effort of Mr. McGilligan, as Minister for Finance, in the Shannon scheme was something which was decried. We know that there was very little notice taken of the first sugar-beet factory erected by the late Deputy Paddy Hogan when he was Minister for Agriculture, and we know that there has been considerable criticism of the efforts to develop our peat resources. I have had the privilege of being in opposition, I might say, when all those efforts were being made, and I am glad to be able to say that to each of those in their day I gave my ardent support. I think it is of importance to us and to our future that we would try to visualise the significance of each particular development in a new field from the national point of view and make what contribution we can in our discussions to ensure that that development will be along healthy lines, to be critical in such a way as will ensure that good will come from our criticism of it, but that we wish it well and will do what we can to give it the measure of support which public men ought to give to every new effort when we are satisfied that the country as a whole is going to benefit therefrom.

When the Minister was here on a previous occasion with legislation for Bord na Móna I felt in the position of being able to give it my support and to express certain views in regard to this development which to my mind were of some significance. The ramifications of Bord na Móna to-day are very considerable and their effects on the life of the country are of great significance. The Minister's successor in office in the last Government carried on the work that had been started by Mr. Lemass, and it does not matter what change may come about in the Government of the country, the development of our peat resources is something which has been embarked upon on a national scale and from which we can retreat only by admitting incapacity on our part to do the things every good nationalist must do in his country if it is going to make progress.

I have seen the work of Bord na Móna on a number of occasions. I saw it in its early life and somewhat later and I have seen it quite recently. I welcome the developments that are taking place and I have been glad to see them. It would be a helpful thing if those members of the Oireachtas who have not yet had the privilege of seeing the work being done on the extensive bogs now in possession of Bord na Móna could see it.

The houses which have been erected down there are very attractive. They are a considerable addition from the point of view of building up family life in close proximity to the source of employment. In so far as this Bill will make provision for additional housing I am all in favour of it. Men ought to live as closely as possible, or reasonably close, to their work. I do not want to build houses in the middle of the bog. That would not be wise and it is not being done. The plan devised and executed there is very good indeed.

Obviously it is essential in a big organisation like Bord na Móna to make provision for the future of the employees. It is not an easy thing to get men to go into the heart of a bog and start the sort of development which had to be undertaken down there. Bogs are all right for those of us who spend a few weeks in midsummer in them and go off then to various activities on the farm. They can be very attractive places, very friendly places; but when you have to build up a personnel who have to live most of their lives on the bogs it is not always so attractive. They are remote from civilisation. The wild birds may pass from one point to another but in the heart of a bog where these men work they are not as near to the amenities of life that many people say are essential to the rural community if we are to keep the rural community where they are. Those amenities are not available to these people so something must be done to ensure that you will keep the sort of people you want in an organisation like that.

The development of this organisation demands a type of pioneer which it is not always easy to buy. To a certain extent, this is pioneering work. If you are to have trained personnel, it is not good enough to train them and then permit them to go away into other occupations when they reach the stage where their knowledge, capacity and executive ability should be available. That is a very important aspect of this measure.

With regard to the whole general problem of the development of electricity from our peat resources, with regard to the problems of the sale of electricity by the E.S.B. and the other problem which is part of it, which the Minister dealt with elsewhere a week or so ago—the utilisation of peat for the growing of grass—I want to suggest to the Minister, inasmuch as all these three activities are under his direct control, that the time has come —I said something like this in the debate on the legislation for the grass meal project at Bangor Erris, but I want to expand a little on it now—in my opinion, from the overall point of view of the best utilisation of our resources, when some authority, some commission, some body should be got together to study the utilisation of these resources anew.

If you discuss this with Bord na Móna and the people who have the task of developing electricity from peat, they have one point of view. It may very well be that if you talk to the people in the E.S.B. they have a slightly different point of view about the utilisation of peat for power resources. There is, however, a new development of the utmost importance, perhaps more important to the country's future than the development of electricity from peat, and that is what Comhlucht Siúicre Éireann have started beyond Ballyforan, between Roscommon and Galway. It is clear to anyone who has gone there and to people who make an effort to study the proper utilisation of soil resources, that there are possibilities for the cultivation of our peat soils that we have not dreamed of in the past. My view is that we have reached such a stage of development now that the whole situation ought to be considered anew.

Obviously, there are contracts between the E.S.B. and Bord na Móna. The people in the E.S.B. have the responsibility to sell power, to sell light and heat. They are concerned, as we are all concerned, about the price at present and the cost in the future. We are concerned about the cost to-day and it is not inconsiderable in any home. In fact, many of us think it is rather too high. We hear complaints about the cost. I have been told elsewhere—and the Minister has told us too, I think—that the electricity being developed to-day from peat is costing less than what is developed from imported fuel. That is very welcome news indeed. If the cost of electricity can be brought down, so much the better. The aim should be to bring it down.

It is most important for all of us to realise that many services in this country cost too much to-day. While it may be a very meritorious thing to try to provide employment, the aim must not be to provide employment at any cost. If the service is too expensive, it may indeed have the effect of denying the possibility of employment in another field. Because one service may be too expensive, the possibilities of providing employment in another field may be denied. From that angle, therefore, the cost of electricity is, in the first instance, the intimate concern of the E.S.B. Definitely, there should be a linking-up of these two bodies. Here again, however, in surveying our electricity needs and the possibility of supplying these needs out of our peat resources, you cannot leave aside consideration of the possibility of the development of our peat resources for new purposes. From what I have seen of the developments that are taking place under Comhlucht Siúicre Éireann, I think that perhaps these are to-day coming to the point where they may be of even greater importance to the nation than the development of electricity from peat. I hope I do not shock the Minister or the people in Bord na Móna or the enthusiasts or pioneers who did so much to get this going.

It is true that power in every country is a terribly essential service. Power commands, controls, orders the way of life of the civilised world. But there is something which is all important, which creates power and which we in this island can never lose sight of: I refer to the possibility of the power to produce more food here.

In our recent developments here in peat I see possibilities of producing immense quantities of food that we have not dreamed of heretofore. My view is that before we go much further in extending the area to Bord na Móna for the development of power we ought to set up a body of people to study how the nation will best be served. I do not know. As I see it, the problem of providing food for the world is going to be a much more difficult and complicated job than the problem of providing power. I think it will be possible to provide power when it will not be possible to provide food. Perhaps I may put it in another way. It may very well be that from an acre of peat, the resources of which would be properly developed, you could provide much more power. You could provide yourself with something which, when exchanged, would buy something that would create much more power than the development of these resources directly in the form of electricity.

I am convinced, as I said, that the food resources of the world are not going to be equal to or adequate for the needs for the world's population in the future. Because of that, I urge the Minister, now that a certain stage of development has been reached and before he goes very much further, to study this aspect of the problem. I do not want to cramp or hamper anything that Bord na Móna visualises as being its responsibility and its need to provide the power for our electricity authority in the future but it seems to me that our most immediate need is the proper utilisation of the surface resources of the country. I have no hesitation whatever in saying that future generations will praise the foresight of the man who will see the necessity now, before we go too far in any particular direction, of trying to get such a balance in our total economy as will ensure the best development, from the point of view of the future of the nation, with the resources that are available to us.

The Minister said in Athlone, or outside it, that there were 1,000,000 acres of peat which could be turned into good soil. I think there are much more. You have a very strange problem in this country from the point of view of the area of land available for distribution. You have the problem of congestion in the West—and that is where you have your peat resources. Somebody may say: "When the bog has supplied the power you will have what remains and we can turn that into good and fruitful soil." I should hope that will be done. The Minister may recall what I said on a previous occasion when another Bill of his was under consideration in this House. I was on the Kildare bogs within the past few weeks. I was rather surprised to see how much of the bog is still left. If we must wait until we cut the top turf away, and wait for the cutting that is left to make farms, then I fear that new generations will be dead before that point is reached. That is what struck me about it. I do not want to see that happen. I have the feeling that before that time comes we will have new and probably unheard sources of power available to us and at our disposal.

I think that the biggest job before us at the present time in this country is to see whether we can get another 1,000,000 or 2,000,000 acres of land. We talk about winning back that part of the Province of Ulster which we have lost but we can win here, within our own territory, millions of acres of land for our own people. I saw grass growing on the bogs outside Ballyforan last week and no grass in the County Cavan is as good as it from the point of view of its fruitfulness. An immense and expensive task of reclamation was undertaken there but I submit that that task represented buying new land and buying it with Irish labour, with Irish resources within our own country and with our own currency. When you think of the other problem that confronts you and the cost involved in taking 200 or 300 acres somewhere in Leinster and exchanging with a 200-acre man in Connaught; bringing him up to Westmeath, Louth, Dublin or County Meath and then trying to distribute his 200 acres in Connaught amongst 30 or 40 ten-acre men down there, you cannot but realise the truth of what I say. You see the vast expenditure which is involved in establishing a few new homes or building up a few of the old ones. I suggest to the Minister for Industry and Commerce that there is an immense problem there to be tackled.

The Minister has never pretended to know much about agriculture. I should say that externally he is interested in it and I am quite satisfied that he could make himself up on it very well, if he gave it a little attention, and, as I have said before, it would not do the country any harm, if he did. We would perhaps get a better balance in our economy.

It is of the utmost importance that he should do so and what I am speaking of is not just something that strikes me because I am enthusiastic about the project the Minister has put before us. I speak of it because of my knowledge of soils and of what soils can do with proper treatment and management and because I am convinced there is a vast scope and immense possibilities for ourselves there, if we have the courage to face them. I urge this type of development because it is something like this a country wants to-day to capture its imagination, to turn its mind a little away from itself and perhaps a little away from the narrow stream into which we have tended to drift, to the country's detriment and not to our own advantage.

I urge very strongly that the best interests of Bord na Móna, of the E.S.B. and, above all, of the people of the nation will be served by giving attention to the point of view I have expressed. I am absolutely convinced that I am not alone in this opinion. There are not many people in the country who have interested themselves in this, but there are people of some authority and with some knowledge who are satisfied that such a survey as this is now urgent and that if it were tackled by the Minister, we would get a new picture, a new plan of an approach to the development of this nation's resources. Even to-day, I believe we are on the way, through the development of our peat resources, to influencing the climate of this country. The drainage which has taken place and which must take place as a result of development under Bord na Móna and other bodies will do a great deal to dispel the "mists that do be on the bogs" and I hope we will make an effort to dispel these elsewhere, too.

Mr. Hawkins

The development of the peat resources of this country was one of the main planks of the old Sinn Féin policy and it was only natural that, when Fianna Fáil became the Government of the country in 1932, they should take immediate steps to set up an organisation charged with the undertaking of the development of such resources. As Senator Baxter stated, these suggestions were received with grave doubts, and with more than doubts in many cases, as to their desirability or their chances of success, but, despite that opposition, the board then set up and the Bill we now have before us must satisfy each and every one of us that the confidence the Minister then had that the work which he charged this body with doing could be done has been justified. We have the proof to-day in the great development work that has been carried out over a number of years. It is true that the war years intervened and that the board's activities had to be directed not to the purposes for which it was set up but rather towards the winning, or helping in the winning, of a sufficient supply of fuel for home and factory use.

When we look back at the progress that has been made and find that the Bill before us makes provision for an additional sum of something like £15,000,000 for future development work and for guaranteeing to the workers engaged in this very important industry a certain sense of security, it is gratifying to those of us who supported these projects at the time. The board undertook the erection of houses and this has proved very beneficial in attracting workers to the remote parts of the country where these works are carried out. As time went on, the proposal came before this and the other House that the E.S.B. should be charged with the setting up of generating stations and Bord na Móna with the provision of fuel in the shape of turf. There were also grave doubts expressed then, and, when the Bill came before this House, we had questions asked from all sides as to the advisability of the project, as to whether there had been tests, whether it had been proved a success elsewhere and so forth. Now that the project has been gone ahead with, we find that not alone has it lived up to expectations but has surpassed the expectations even of those who were most enthusiastic about it.

Some months ago, we had here another Bill making provision for generating electricity from milled peat and we had further questions as to what steps had been taken to ensure that, if the work was undertaken, it would be a success. While all these questions were being asked, the board went forward with their projects and we are all glad to see that they have all been successful.

Senator Baxter referred to the scheme carried out by the Irish Sugar Company in Gowla, outside Ballyforan, and I think the Sugar Company, and particularly the manager, deserve the best praise the country can give. They have undertaken a project which may prove to be even more beneficial to the country than that carried out to date by Bord na Móna. It is because of the confidence the Minister and the Government had in the development of these resources that this scheme is possible at all. We all hope it will meet with every success.

While there is no provision in regard to it in this Bill I want to thank the Minister for announcing the proposal to erect a generating station in the West of Ireland. Here we have a large area of bog which has been found suitable and it is proposed to fire the station by hand-won turf. This will give much-needed employment to our people there. It is a type of work which deserves the most serious consideration and the Minister has the best wishes of all sections and classes of the people of the district in his decision to have the generating station situated there. In order that the scheme may be a success, however, the people in the district are very anxious that the drainage and other necessary preparatory work, together with the erection of the station, should be undertaken as early as possible.

Professor Johnston

I should like to make a few scattered remarks about the policy involved in this Bord na Móna Bill. I think we may well congratulate the Minister and all concerned on the success of the activities of Bord na Móna, but I think we must also agree with the general point of view of Senator Baxter that the development of our peat resources should be pursued within the framework of some overall view of the economy of the country as a whole. We must bear in mind that Bord na Móna is competing with other economic activities for scarce resources of capital and labour and that it is in the national interest that the most effective use should be made of all our available resources, human and other.

From that point of view I welcome especially the fact that many of these Bord na Móna enterprises are likely to be situated in the congested districts. I think I heard the Minister state that it is intended to place some of them, at any rate, in areas which hitherto have been known for congestion and have been for many generations centres of depression. In that case they will make a real contribution to the employment of people who hitherto have had to migrate to other countries in order to obtain a livelihood.

It also happens that some of these Bord na Móna enterprises are situated in the Midlands and near very good agricultural districts. The Bog of Allen is surrounded by good quality agricultural land and, to my own personal knowledge, it has happened that Bord na Móna has attracted away to their enterprises labour which might conceivably have been doing a better job for the country though not perhaps for themselves if they had continued working as agricultural labourers. In other words, there has been an intensified scarcity of agricultural labour in certain parts of the Midlands because of the attractions of work on the bog carried on by Bord na Móna. I rather think that the rate of wages paid is a real attraction to these people because in spite of the substantial increase in the wages of agricultural labourers, the wages and other amenities of work on the bogs are definitely better and more valuable than wages associated with agricultural labour.

I do not know how far it is possible to guarantee continuity of employment for a uniform volume of labour in these Bord na Móna enterprises throughout the whole 12 months of the year. From a social point of view it is very desirable that it should be possible to guarantee such continuity of labour and such reasonably civilised conditions of living as will enable them to develop into an organised and happy community of rural workers. I believe you have there the possibilities of developing a highly desirable form of communal life and it should be something which will enrich the lives of people taking part in the work on the bogs and also add to the variety and interest of the lives of the farmers and others living in the immediate neighbourhood of the Bord na Móna enterprises.

The Minister mentioned that the expected life of any given Bord na Móna enterprise was a matter of perhaps 25 years. Therefore, any houses that are built to accommodate the workers might reasonably expect to be no longer needed when the bog is exhausted. But surely it is the case that when all the turf that we want or that is available has been exploited, what is left behind will be in many cases the makings of quite good agricultural land. Some of the best land in the country is what people call cut-away bog. I should be very much surprised if such land has not got the makings of first-class agricultural land, even after the peat has been removed. That being so, I think it would be possible to continue these colonies of workers in the houses that have been built, no longer, perhaps, after 25 years, as cutters of turf but as exploiters of the new agricultural land that has been created.

Senator Baxter expressed the view that there is competition between the possible use of bogland for growing grass by the Sugar Company and for cutting turf by Bord na Móna. At the moment we have such a tremendous amount of available land for either the Sugar Company to experiment on or Bord na Móna to cut turf on that there is no real danger of exhausting that resource in the foreseeable future. Therefore, so far as that is concerned the two can go ahead and each will find a place where they can usefully operate.

With regard to the production of peat mould from the bog, I know a case where a certain farmer had been a grain farmer until the last of his workers went off to work for Bord na Móna; then he had to content himself with being a grass farmer on an intensive scale. He went in for the modern technique of growing grasses and preserving them in the form of silage and fed 30 or 40 cattle in sheds in the winter with the produce of his intensive summer production and conservation of grasses.

The one necessary thing which any person feeding cattle in houses must have is something to absorb the animal manure and in the ordinary way that is straw. However, another of the Minister's enterprises provided an alternative market for straw, so that this farmer had some difficulty in acquiring straw in competition with that industrial enterprise in Athy. He did not have it on his own farm, because, as I said, the last of his workers went off to work for Bord na Móna and he was in a serious difficulty in trying to acquire the means of bedding the animals, 30 or 40 of which he was feeding in the sheds all winter. He would have liked to substitute for straw the peat mould produced by Bord na Móna at Kilberry, but on making inquiries he found the price of that commodity was so fantastically high that it was quite uneconomic for him to use peat mould in that particular way.

In a case like that where, owing to one cause or another, including the policy of Bord na Móna, farmers are unable to use straw for making manure, it would be highly desirable that they should let such farmers have peat mould at a price which would enable it to perform the function which normally straw performs, at a price which it would be worth their while to pay. I think that matter requires looking into by all concerned and it is very important that the manure which results from feeding cattle in the winter time should be available in convenient form to be put back into the land for future cultivation.

There is only one other point and that is that this whole business of the maximum advantage to be obtained from our peat resources is largely a question of applied science. I gather that there is some kind of experimental station at Newbridge, but I am not quite certain, from what I heard of the Minister's remarks, whether that implies a chemical research unit into the various possible ways of using our peat resources. For example, I speak as one ignorant of the chemical considerations involved but it is conceivable to me, at any rate, that it might at some stage be more economical to distil the peat on the bogs and pipe the resulting calorific gases from the bogs to places where it would be used instead of laboriously bringing it many miles to the centres of population.

In other words, it might conceivably be possible and even desirable at some stage to treat peat as a source of inflammable gas in the same way and by the same methods as we treat coal in order to produce coal gas. In that case there would result from such distillation various chemical substances, of which I do not even know the names, and it is conceivable that some of those substances might be of considerable industrial and economic importance, I think we should maintain in connection with Bord na Móna's activities a chemical and scientific research unit designed to investigate the possibilities of making the most effective use of our peat resources in one way or another.

Pádraig Ághas

Sa chéad dul síos, ba mhaith liom traoslú don Aire agus é a mholadh mar gheall ar an méid dul chun cinn atá déanta aige i scéal so forbairte na móna.

As ceantar móna mé féin agus b'fhéidir gur fearr a thuigeann mo leithéid an dul chun cinn sin ná daoine nach raibh baint riamh acu le cúrsaí móna.

Is cuimhin liomsa go maith sa bhliain 1932 nuair a bhí móin á dhíol ar 8/- an tonna, ba shuarach an luach saothair sin do na daoine bochta a bhí ag obair ar shábháil na móna. Deireadh na filí go mbídís ag obair fadó ar raol agus breicfeast mar pháigh. Ní mór fairis sin a bhí ag na daoine bochta seo.

Ba thrua iad agus tháinig cuid againn le chéile agus d'iarramar ar an Rialtas teacht i gcabhair orthu. Thánadar. Do chuadar in urrús air go bhfaighidís a dhúbailt sin ar a laghad. Ba mhór an dul chun cinn é sin. Ansan cuireadh na cumainn móna ar bun agus is astu san d'fhás Bord na Móna.

Cheapadar san tar éis tamaill gur ró-mhall mar ghléas an sleán. Dheineadar scrúdú ar an scéal agus cuireadh daoine amach go dtí an Eóraip ar lorg eolais.

Deineadh céim mhór ar aghaidh nuair a cromadh ar mhóin a shábháil le hinnill.

Ina dhiaidh sin chromadar ar aibhléis a ghiniúint le cumhacht na móna. Ach is dóigh liom féin gurb é an dul chun cinn ba mhó ná an beartú a dhein an Aire, monarchana beaga a chur ar bun sna portaigh bheaga.

Má cuirtear na monarchana beaga ar bun is féidir an mhóin d'úsáid go díreach in aice na bportach. Sin é an rud is tábhachtaí ar fad agus is mór an chabhair é sin do na feirmeoirí beaga. In ionad ganntanas beidh siad compordach—agus is mó duine mar sin sna ceantair ina raibh na portaigh bheaga. Beidh siad neamhspleách agus ní bheidh siad ag braith ar dheontais ná aon rud eile. Beidh siad ag tuilleamh airgid lena gcuid oibre féin.

Rud adúirt an Seanadóir Baxter, chuir sé áthas mór orm—faoin rud ar a dtugtar an "cutaway," an athchalla. Is mór an úsáid a baintear as sin thiar mar a bhfuilimse. Chonaic mé an móinfhéar is tiorma agus an féar is fearr atá le fáil san Iarthar ar na portaigh seo, agus barraí breátha prátaí. Chonaic mé leis barraí biatais á mbaint agus á sábháil ar na portaigh seo. Bíonn sé níos tiorma ná sa talamh maith ach ní dóigh liom féin go mbíonn an "content," is é sin an siúcra, chomh tiubh ann. Díolann sé as féin go maith mar bíonn an meáchaint ann.

Anseo agus ansiúd, fiú amháin in áit a bhfuil an mhóin go flúirseach, tá leisce ar na daoine sna hospídéil agus sna scoileanna faoin gCoiste Gairm-Oideachais úsáid a bhaint as móin. In áiteanna nach bhfuil na húdaráis go teann, éiríonn leo an mhóin a chur amach agus an gual a chur ina háit. Is mór an náire é sin. B'fhéidir nach mbaineann sé seo leis an Aire féin ach b'fhéidir go gcuirfeadh sé cogar i gcluais Aire eile gur cheart smacht éigin a bheith ann, d'fhonn go bhféadfaidís an mhóin d'úsáid nuair a bhíonn sí le fáil.

Chuala mé le déanaí go bhfuil rud éigin ag titeam amach in Arm na hÉireann, imeasc saighdiúirí na hÉireann. Chuala mé go bhfuil gual á úsáid acu. Ní bheadh sé ró-dhona dá mbé gual na hÉireann é ach is baol liom, do réir mar a chuala, gur gual é a tugadh thar sáile. Is iontach an scéal é agus is mór an náire é más fíor.

Mr. Lemass

As I understand Senator Baxter's idea it is that a stage may be reached at which the various possible uses of our turf resources will come into conflict and that we should now plan ahead to avoid any such situation. I think Senator Johnston is correct in saying that there is no real danger of a conflict of that kind. A few statistics, I think, may help to settle that. We have about 3,000,000 acres of peat bog in this country. Bord na Móna has secured 80,000 of these and is working on about 50,000 acres. It is true that a large part of that total acreage would be mountain blanket bog of the kind that Bord na Móna could not work with its present methods and it has acquired control over a large number of the areas of deep bog; but nevertheless there is I think sufficient area of bogland available to permit us to say to everybody who has ideas for its use, "go ahead and try them out" without risk that they will come into collision with one another after a time.

I agree with Senator Baxter that the work done at Gowla Bog is of very great significance and holds out the possibility of a very wide area of hitherto derelict land being brought into cultivation. I feel confident from the results already obtained that the sugar company's experts are going to bring about at Gowla the development they anticipate and which I hope will be brought in Mayo through the work of the new grass meal company. That does not really raise any issue so far as the availability of peat for fuel purposes is concerned, because they do not use the peat. It is true that they cultivate it. They drain it, fertilise it and plant and get crops off it, but the peat is still there if ever we should need it for fuel purposes. Bord na Móna uses the peat and will leave behind a cutaway bog which will be either adapted for agricultural cultivation or used for forestry centres.

Senator Johnston is quite right in his view that the working out of the bogs does not necessarily mean an end to employment in those areas. Bord na Móna are confident that as far as the midland bogs are concerned they can be used for agricultural purposes and that the western bogs can be used for afforestation purposes, activities which will give an equivalent amount of permanent employment.

Senator Johnston raised the wider question of Bord na Móna being in competition with the other activities for available resources of capital and labour. That is hardly a problem that arises specifically on this Bill. At some stage it may be necessary to apportion those resources to the most profitable uses, but I do not think that we have reached that stage yet. It is true that Bord na Móna's activity in some districts has created a problem in relation to availability of agricultural labour, but taking the situation as a whole, there is still labour enough to fill the needs of all the undertakings which are now proceeding; and changes are taking place in agriculture which I think will prevent any problem of that kind arising for some time. I mean the increased use of machines in agricultural production which to some extent replace labour and also make possible the payment by agriculture of wages comparable to those obtainable in other employments.

The possibility of using peat as a basis for a chemical industry has recently been the subject of an investigation under a technical assistance project. The investigation was carried out under the auspices of an expert committee and the report of that committee is now being prepared. I understand that I will receive it in the very near future, when it will be published for general information. I remember years ago a very distinguished Irish professor who was interested in the possible use of peat for the production of chemicals telling me that I would live to see the day when I would be passing a law prohibiting people from burning turf because it would have been discovered that it was of much greater value for other purposes. I do not know if we will get to that day in my time, but there are, no doubt, possibilities there. How strong those possibilities are from an economic point of view may be made clear by the report of this Technical Assistance Committee to which I have referred.

It is true that in the case of the bogs which Bord na Móna are working nothing has yet been done to bring into cultivation any part of them. That is because the work has not proceeded far enough. So far as the midland bogs which are being worked for the production of sod peat are concerned, areas will become available in the course of time on which Bord na Móna intend to work either with a view to their development for agricultural uses or for afforestation purposes, and they are already giving attention to that matter; but there is no area available yet because the parts of those bogs from which the turf is being removed are still in use as drying ground.

As far as the western bogs are concerned, from which milled peat is being produced, I understand that the bog will be worked out simultaneously over the whole area. In any event, it is afforestation which is contemplated there, which would require a very substantial acreage before effective work could be done.

Bord na Móna has not got responsibility in connection with hand-won turf, and I am anxious to maintain that situation. During the war when it was necessary to organise the production of hand-won turf on an extensive scale Bord na Móna was conscripted for that purpose. It operated its own hand turf production schemes in County Kildare, and after the war it had passed over to it the various schemes which had previously been operated by the county councils. It was never intended, however, that Bord na Móna should remain in a position in which they would have responsibility in regard to hand-won turf. Its job is the mechanisation of turf production, production of the cheapest possible type of fuel from turf mainly for electricity generating purposes. It was because we recognised that the passing of the fuel scarcity and consequently the reduced demand for hand-won turf would create temporary problems in the areas into which an exceptional degree of prosperity was introduced by wartime conditions that we decided to establish these small electricity stations, to be based upon hand-won turf.

As Senator Hawkins has said, the E.S.B. have been asked repeatedly by me to get ahead with their plans for their erection as quickly as possible, although it is inevitable that it will take a couple of years to get them into operation. The purpose of these plants is primarily to help conditions in those areas. It is recognised that they would not produce electricity as cheaply as the larger stations in the Midlands, but our justification for proceeding with them nevertheless is that other forms of Government aid to rural areas do not really apply in those districts. Guaranteed prices for wheat, or farm grants of one kind or another, and the various types of aid which the community gives to agriculture in the country as a whole, would produce less effective results in those isolated areas, and consequently there is justification for supplementing them in some way, and this appears to be the best way.

The most obvious of the local resources is peat and by ensuring a market for a substantial quantity of that peat at a reasonable price you can introduce in these areas a flow of money which is bound to have beneficial social results. But, apart from that special effort, the intention is that hand-won turf will get back to the prewar position in which the producers would seek local markets and expect to get them because of the lower price of their product as compared with prices of other fuels in these markets.

Our estimate is that approximately 230,000 tons of hand-won turf will be purchased this year and that it will not be much below, if at all, the quantity purchased last year. Last year, a substantial portion of the hand-won turf produced was not, in fact, sold and, in accordance with the guarantee given, was taken up by Bord na Móna for resale to the E.S.B. That guarantee does not operate this year and we have been at pains to make it clear to the local turf producers that they have to rely upon local markets and that they should limit their productions to what they think the local markets will absorb until these new stations are operating and prepared to take their output.

It is true, as was stated here, that there were doubts originally as to the practicability of developing peat fuel on the scale on which we are now doing it. These doubts have been resolved in time and, as Senator Baxter said, the idea of going ahead with the development of our peat bogs for fuel purposes has now the support of every section of the community.

Question put, and agreed to.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

When is it proposed to take the next stage?

Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 17 Jun 1953