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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 5 Feb 1986

Vol. 111 No. 3

National Development Corporation Bill, 1985: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

As a measure to ensure the maximum spread of such risk, as well as the maximum funding for NDC projects, the corporation will be empowered to enter into joint ventures with the private sector. This involvement of private enterprise partners in NDC investments is an important means of increasing the level of funds available for investment. It is also a means of encouraging a greater level of risk investment on the part of the private sector. Indeed, syndication of investments, as such joint arrangements are called, is an important and growing feature of the risk business and it is unlikely that the NDC could operate to its full potential if it were to be restricted in this regard.

As a consequence, it will be possible for the NDC to be jointly involved with private venture capitalists in projects with a substantial financial dimension and where a spread of risk is essential, or in overseas projects with definite potential for technology transfer/project development in Ireland. In this latter role, the NDC will also be able to influence firms to locate or maintain their headquarters and decision-making functions here in Ireland rather than elsewhere. It is, of course, important to point out that the corporation will also be empowered to carry out its investment role in consultation and co-operation with existing State enterprise.

The NDC will have a critical role to play in the Government's industrial strategy for the development of the indigenous resource sector of the economy. The Government are committed to the preparation in conjunction with sectoral and agricultural interests of a co-ordinated development programme for the food processing sector. This is necessary because one of the most serious constraints on the development of an integrated food industry has been the uncertainty associated with regularity, reliability and seasonality of supply of primary raw materials such as beef and milk particularly.

An important task of the corporation will be to co-operate in the promotion of long term contracts which would be profitable for both the producer and the processor. Such long term production contract arrangements entail many financial costs and risks and thus require a substantial equity underpinning. This equity underpinning is necessary to ensure the parties against possible fluctuations in agricultural prices in the early years of a contract. It is acknowledged that the detailed financial arrangements for such contracts will require very careful consideration and that such a system will only work if it is accepted that contracts, once made, will be rigorously enforced. The NDC will invest, on a strictly commercial basis, in the development of such long term production and supply contract arrangements in the agricultural sectors. It will be looking, as in all its investments, towards making a profit. The NDC will also act as an investment vehicle, where appropriate, in commercial projects related to the exploitation of our forestry and fishery resources.

The NDC will also be empowered to become involved in projects designed to assist the development of our tourist industry. The development of tourist-related facilities, such as hotels and related activities, often require significant capital investment and the seasonality of return does not always make it initially a sufficiently attractive proposition for the private sector on its own. The NDC's ability to become involved in joint ventures in this area will, therefore, be an important means of encouraging the involvement of the private sector in developing and expanding our tourism infrastructure and helping the private sector investors to take a sufficiently long term view of certain projects. The NDC's involvement in this area will fill an important gap in terms of State financial aid available to the tourist industry as was pointed out in the recently published White Paper on Tourism.

Another area in which the NDC will play an important role will be that of assisting and, if necessary, participating in the establishment of development companies to provide services to small enterprises on a commercial basis. The Telesis report took the view that small Irish manufacturing firms could not achieve their full potential because they lacked adequate resources for marketing, R and D, warehousing etc. It argued that in some cases these could be supplied by development companies providing common services to a number of firms.

These services would be provided on a commercial basis but would be tailored to the particular needs of member firms. It is my hope that the NDC will be able to invest in and share in the profits of such schemes or development companies. The availability of investment funds from the NDC should act as a catalyst in establishing the initial viability of joint schemes of this kind throughout industry.

It is widely recognised in Ireland that there is a shortage of both private and public seed capital for projects, particularly technology-based projects, which take a number of years of development work before they reach the stage of commercialisation. The NDC is, therefore, also being empowered to assist in the development of, and invest in commercial enterprises based on the results of research and development activity in higher education and related fields.

The National Development Corporation can complement the efforts of such higher education institutions and those of individual entrepreneurs by providing a new source of equity funding for enterprises established on the basis of R and D work. The NDC will be aiming, as in all its investments, at making a profit. However, its investment perspective will be longer than that of many traditional investors. Thus it will be well suited to the commercialisation of research based products and processes.

The Bill also empowers the NDC to act as a holding company for new projects initiated by public sector companies where such a facility would be helpful.

The corporation is not being empowered by the Bill to act as a holding company for existing State industries as envisaged in the joint Programme for Government. This will, however, be considered by the Government in the light of the progress of the NDC in its basic innovation and developmental tasks. In many of the existing commercial State enterprises there is a need for policy and performance prospects to be much more clearly delineated as corporate plans are submitted and evaluated. There would be little point in handing over to the NDC unsettled policy problems of existing State enterprises. Objectives and strategies must be reassessed first and social/strategic roles, if any, clarified by comparison with the strictly commercial ones. Moreover, it will be important, particularly during its crucial formative period, for the NDC's resources and staff not to be diverted from its primary project development/job creation role.

I think the NDC should and will be aiming in the context of this Bill and concerning itself all the time with new investments. It should not be lumbered with a lot of problems with old and long-established companies where much of staff time was devoted to getting involved with industrial relations and equity problems. Creative staff, who should be out looking for new investment opportunities on the frontiers of technology, would be diverted to the problems of older and even obsolescent technology in older and perhaps obsolescent industry. That would be undesirable from the point of view of maximising the total number of jobs created. This is why I stress, and the Government stress, in this Bill the constant need to keep the NDC on the frontiers of technology with a truly developmental role rather than an administrative firefighting role which might otherwise, if the Bill had been drafted other than it has been drafted, have been the ultimate role of the NDC.

Although the NDC's main activity will be that of taking an equity stake in projects, it is also being empowered to give loans. This will be subject to certain conditions to which I referred already and now I give some details of.

First, where financial assistance is being provided by the Corporation for a project, a maximum of 30 per cent of the initial assistance provided by the corporation may be by way of loan capital. Secondly, where loan capital has been provided for a project any further financial assistance provided by the corporation to that project will be by way of equity investment only. Thirdly, in cases where loan capital has been provided by the corporation to a project the corporation shall specify that the interest rate attaching to the loan shall be as determined by me in consultation with the Minister for Finance. It would be my intention that that would be a commercial rate of interest. In other words, there would not be any interest subsidy concealed in the giving out of a loan.

The giving of loans together with equity investment is a feature of the venture capital market. The inclusion in the legislation of the conditions outlined above will ensure that the giving of loans will be part only of the initial investment. The limit of 30 per cent on loans is based on the best advice available to me and the fact that one loan and one loan only, may be given ensures that there is no danger of the corporation losing sight of its job creation function and becoming a job-rescue agency for its own investments.

In order to enable the corporation to fulfil its investment role it is being provided with an authorised share capital of £300 million which will be held by, or on behalf of, the Minister for Finance. In advancing the corporation funds out of its authorised share capital — and of course it is not going to have £300 million available to it on day one — the Government will have regard to the financial commitments of the board in terms of the projects and investment programmes with which it is, or is likely, to become involved. In later years the Government will also have regard to the amount of funds available to the corporation from its own resources, that is, the revolving investment fund for employment.

It is the Government's objective to ensure that the corporation exercises due commercial prudence in the selection, administration and disposal of its investment portfolio. If it does not make profits, it will not be able to create jobs.

The corporation will be judged at the end of the day in accordance with its success in achieving these twin objectives. Therefore, the rate at which the authorised share capital of the corporation is issued must remain at the discretion of the Government. If the corporation is performing profitably and is succeeding in creating employment, a greater amount of funds can be released.

If it is not performing successfully, the flow of funds can be restricted to push it towards the development of a more judicious investment portfolio. Had this Bill provided for and issued, as distinct from an authorised, share capital of £300 million then we would have rightly been accused of being foolhardy and lacking in consideration for the taxpayer from whom all Exchequer funding is originally taken. One has to accept that the NDC must, if it is to be worthwhile at all, make a rate of return well in excess of the rate of interest paid by the taxpayer on the money borrowed to finance the NDC.

The procedure for taking up the share capital in the corporation will involve the allocation of a specific sum of money in the public capital programme. The public capital programme is published annually and so Senators will be aware on an ongoing basis of the Government's commitment to the NDC. For 1986, the NEA/NDC is being provided with capital of £9.5 million. The NEA is receiving, £2 million of this to allow it to continue in existence until the NDC is established in the next month or so. Any moneys remaining unexpended by the NEA at this time will be transferred to the NDC. I should point out that this same procedure will apply in the case of the administrative grant-in-aid for these bodies. In this case the NDC is receiving £644,000 and the NEA £200,000. In regard to future years, however, Senators will appreciate that until such time as the public capital programme is published it will not be possible to indicate the level of funding which will be available to the corporation in any particular year.

The corporation is not being empowered to borrow for capital investment purposes. Senators will appreciate that this would be extremely inappropriate given the high risk nature of the corporation's activities.

In order for the corporation to build up a base of profitable investments capable of providing sustainable employment, it is necessary to ensure that investments are judiciously spread over a range of sectors. For this reason the NDC will not be allowed to make investments in excess of £1 million without my consent, or in excess of £2.5 million without the consent of the Government. As a further element of protection for the taxpayer, Section 33 of the Bill imposes restrictions on the corporation entering into financial commitments in respect of items such as leasing or purchasing office premises or office equipment. I should point out that the limit of £2.5 million on capital investment above which Government approval is required is the same as has applied for many years in respect of the giving of grants by the IDA. I might say that the operation of this limit will probably also encourage the NDC to spread its investments to a number of smaller companies with smaller investments rather than tying up an unduly large proportion of its investments in any one year in one or two big projects. This would result in greater dispersal of its effect, which, I think is good.

The Bill provides that the corporation may not take a majority shareholding in any enterprise other than one which it established on its own initiative. The financial risks attaching to a majority shareholding are far greater and so, too, are the administrative and management responsibilities of a holding company in respect of a majority shareholding. Such factors would impose an enormous strain on the resources of the corporation and would result in staff being deflected from their primary function of job-initiators. With a large number of majority holdings, the staff of the corporation would soon become more involved in the management of existing investments instead of finding new ones.

The NDC's investment role is not confined to manufacturing industry. The definition of enterprise contained in section 2 of the Bill does not restrict the NDC's role in this way and it will be empowered to invest in suitable projects in the services sector. It will do so on a strictly commercial basis. It is my intention, however, that the NDC should concentrate wholly on the traded sector of the economy where the main competition will come from companies operating from other countries. Its aim will be to develop new markets and to strengthen existing Irish firms by prudent equity investment. The NDC's overall perspective in assessing investments will be the potential of that investment to contribute to the employment effort. The statutory obligation imposed on the corporation is to assist in the creation of the maximum amount of viable and sustainable employment in the State. The NDC, therefore, should not be investing in areas such as retailing where the jobs created in one enterprise will only be at the expense of other jobs already in existence. That is what I mean by saying it will be confined to the trading sector where its investments will not be at the expense of anyone else in the country.

One of the crucial factors which will determine the success of the corporation will be the level of expertise and commitment of those appointed both to the board and the staff of the corporation. It is not mine nor the Government's intention that the members of the board be appointed because of their political or ideological views. The board should be made up of men and women who have proven business, economic and entrepreneurial skills. The board should also be a closely-knit group capable of working in harmony. There is a maximum limit imposed by this Bill of nine board members and I believe that this will allow a proper balance to be struck.

Likewise, if the corporation is to become a vibrant, job creating organisation, staff of the highest calibre must be attracted to its ranks. Furthermore, the board and staff of the corporation would be required to have a commitment to, and belief in, what they are doing. It is a fallacy to suggest that a venture capital-type agency of the type which operates successfully in the private sector cannot operate successfully within the public sector. The experience and business expertise of the staff employed by the National Development Corporation will prove, in the fullness of time, that it can.

I agree that in order to attract the right people we must be in a position to offer them appropriate salaries. Of particular importance will be the selection of a suitable person for the post of managing director. Senators may rest assured that the Government intend to recruit a person fully qualified and competent for this job. The fact remains that the actual salary rate, terms and conditions of this appointment are matters for determination between myself and the Minister for the Public Service. The NDC did not exist when the Devlin Review Body examined the remuneration of chief executives and clearly the appropriate level of remuneration for the NDC post will have to be considered in the light of the particular requirements of that position.

The Bill before the House makes the usual standard administrative provisions in respect of State bodies. My speech would be most unwieldy if I were to comment on each one individually. It may already be qualifying for that accolade. I will, of course, be happy to clarify any particular provision where Senators have any doubts about what is intended. However, I would like to mention a number of points at this stage.

Firstly, the Government, in addition to the share capital of the corporation, are empowered to make grants of up to £2 million available in any one year to meet the administrative, day to day, running costs of the organisation. This grant-in-aid may only be provided in the first five years of the corporation's existence, therefore requiring the corporation to be self-financing by the end of that period, that is, from the point of view of current funds. If it fails in this objective the Government will be required to come back to the Oireachtas so as to amend the Act and extend our funding powers.

Secondly, I would draw the House's attention to the facility to give policy directives to the corporation.

The NDC will complement other initiatives taken by the Government to provide investment funds for industrial and economic development and encourage the development of a thriving venture capital market in Ireland. I think I have dealt with this already.

I will conclude at this point by saying that the NDC is designed to complement a number of other initiatives that the Government have taken. The overall objective is to get more equity capital into business to replace borrowing, as I said at the outset. What are the Government doing about this?

First, we have established the National Development Corporation, which will invest State equity. Secondly, we have established a business expansion scheme which gives private individuals a tax incentive of up to £25,000 to put private money into manufacturing projects. Thirdly, we have introduced since 1981 tax concessions for workers' shareholdings to give workers in firms a tax incentive to put some of their money into the firms in which they are working. Fourthly, we have as a result of some criticism by me of the Stock Exchange, incited the Stock Exchange to establish an over-the-counter market whereby small companies can go on the exchange to get money from private investors through the Stock Exchange, where previously that was a privilege only made available to big companies.

Fifthly, in order to encourage people not only to buy shares but to feel that having bought them they will be able to dispose of them without undue tax burdens, we have in this year's budget reduced the capital gains tax rate from 40 to 35 per cent on long-term investments so that people will not only be able to get an incentive to buy the shares but they will be able to sell them again when they have to get rid of them without paying a penal captial gains tax rate.

Sixthly, we have introduced in this year's budget a proposal, soon to be enacted in the Finance Act, whereby those who invest in manufacturing companies, which as corporations are eligible for a 10 per cent tax rate, will be able to get a tax concession. At the moment, if you invest in a 10 per cent company, the company pays only 10 per cent tax; but, once it pays a dividend to you, you have to pay whatever the maximum tax rate is. It is 58 per cent at the moment, if you are in that bracket, on the dividend you receive. This makes investment in manufacturing companies by private individuals, as distinct from corporations, relatively unattractive. By changing the income tax application to dividends of manufacturing companies we are encouraging individuals to put money into corporations to get investments.

Finally — and this is the seventh initiative we are adopting to encourage this idea of more shareholding in industry — we will be providing in the reform of company law in the next year of so for a provision whereby companies may buy back their own shares. In other words, in the event that there is no available market and the company is not already floated on the Stock Exchange and the shares cannot be sold to somebody else, in that situation the company can buy back the shares.

All of these changes are part of an initiative which was commenced three years ago to make it more attractive for people to invest in industry. Why are we doing this? We are doing this because we do not like the situation which has existed in the past whereby industry relied for investment either on borrowing or on grants from the IDA, which are at extremely high levels in this country. The maximum grant here is 60 per cent, which must be one of the highest in Europe. In regard to designated areas, it is very high in comparison with countries anywhere else in Europe. It is 45 per cent in non-designated areas.

We are offering extremely generous grants to the taxpayer. To my knowledge it would be preferable to finance industry by private investment or indeed, by State equity investments to the NDC, where the State gets a profit, rather than simply handing out the money in the form of a grant on which the State gets no profit. This shift away from grants and borrowing and towards equity investment is a more healthy development for Irish industry. On borrowing you have to pay an interest rate which may be much higher a few years into the loan than it was when you first borrowed the money, as has been the experience in the last few years; whereas in regard to equity, you only pay a dividend if you are making money. Also, by putting the emphasis on equity we are assisting the White Paper's objective of putting more emphasis on native industry, having more funds available for native investments rather than relying on grants to foreign investors to come into the country. I would see all of these measures, particularly the seven I listed in the Seanad, as being part of a consistent strategy to change the whole direction of our industrial policy which was initiated three years ago in favour of a much healthier and strongly based investment portfolio.

The final point I want to make regarding this whole idea of promoting shareholding in industry — it responds to a point made here by Senator Cregan the last time I appeared before the House — is that I would like to see the workers in semi-State companies owning shares in those companies. For example, I have asked the Irish Steel board to consider how they could afford an opportunity for the employees of Irish Steel to become shareholders in their own company. That would be an extremely beneficial approach. I would also like to see many more ordinary individuals here put their savings into investment in productive industry. Too much of our savings are tied up in houses which we hope will appreciate in value but which really we have no intention of selling anyway, and too much is tied up in other forms of pension funds and life assurance policies of various kinds. It would be far more desirable for the productive growth of this country if people put more of their savings into industry where it will actually produce jobs for themselves and prosperity for the country rather than to put it into speculative style investments, into property where it will appreciate or — more likely in recent years — depreciate in value without actually adding to the productive stock of the country in any way.

I hope that we will achieve, within the foreseeable future, a nation in which every household owns a few shares in industry, either in the industry in which some of its own members work or in another industry. That use of our savings is the best guarantee of economic growth. Economic growth will only be achieved if we use our savings productively rather than unproductively. The whole scheme of tax concessions — to which I have referred already — plus the initiation of the National Development Corporation are designed to achieve this consistent shift in the way we use our economic resources.

On a personal note, it has been suggested on some occasions by people who did not know much better that somehow or other I was reluctant, as a Minister, to bring forward the notion of a National Development Corporation. Nothing could be further from the truth. I was responsible, as Front Bench spokesman for my party in Opposition, for writing the Fine Gael policy document, Jobs in the Eighties. A very large part of that document was devoted to proposals which I wrote and which my party agreed, to establish a National Development Corporation. From the very outset I have urgently promoted this idea. Naturally, as the originator of the idea, as far as my own party is concerned, I have had my clear views as to what it should do. Sometimes these views did not exactly coincide with other people's views and I have defended my views to the best of my ability, as others have done to the best of their ability. I am glad to say that as a result of that dialogue we have now an extremely well crafted proposal in the form of this Bill. From the outset I have been in favour of introducing the Bill. I am very glad that I have now reached the point where, save for the deliberations of this House, it is on the point of being enacted. I have been promoting it right from my days in Opposition during 1982 and I am glad to see that proposal effectively on the point of realisation. I am sure it will pass with the co-operation and support of the Members of the House.

Having listened to most of the Minister's speech I must admit that I am still as confused as ever regarding the National Development Corporation. The Minister clarified towards the end of his speech a question I was going to put to him. I was going to ask if he was happy with the proposal to establish the NDC because it was widely publicised that he was not. The fact that the idea of the NDC was conceived at the establishment of the Coalition Government who are now over three years in office and that it is being established now seems to show a reluctance in certain quarters in Government circles to set up this body.

My confusion arises from the fact that we seem to be adding another State body to the list of State bodies which already exist. The Minister said that in order to enable the corporation fulfil its investment role it was being provided with an authorised share capital of £300 million, which will be held by or on behalf of the Minister for Finance. How much money did the Government provide for the NDC in the 1986 Estimates?

It is in my speech.

Was it £9.5 million?

People may be of the opinion that the Government are providing £300 million for the NDC in 1986 when in fact the figure, as the Minister said, is £9.5 million for the NEA and the NDC. I should like to know what return the Government expect to get from that £9.5 million.

We are talking about a new body to fulfil certain functions or, as the Minister pointed out in his speech, to fill a vacuum that exists. I agree with him that there is a vacuum to be filled with regard to industrial development. The Minister is well aware of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Small Businesses which I am privileged to be a member of. We have produced four reports. One dealt with retail and distribution, another with the manufacturing industry, the third on tourism and catering and we have now completed our fourth report which is on the construction industry, the main body of the trade sector in our economy. We made recommendations — some wideranging — to the Minister and I am glad to say that many of them were implemented.

Under our present system there is duplication, bureacracy, a waste of resources, red tape and disincentives to entrepreneurs. I wonder where the NDC will fit in with the IDA, and with, as the Minister mentioned, Bord Fáilte. Where will the Minister accept the demarcation line? How far can the NDC go? Will it be seen as an infringement on the IDA, or are other bodies to be scaled down?

We recommended in our report as far as manufacturing is concerned that more clout be given at local level to county development teams and expand their role and that of county development officers. We suggested that the problems in manufacturing be dealt with at local level and resources be made available to county development teams. We propagated the idea of the one stop shops which would be a tremendous development in the manufacturing area. We suggested that all national agencies locate in one centre in each county so that proposals could be considered and processed speedily. Eventually when decisions are made grants can be paid out from that centre.

We found in many areas — I have experienced this and I am sure the Minister has — that many problems are due to the fact that entrepreneurs are prohibited from expanding their business. That may be due to the fact that an industry has overdeveloped in an area or is deemed to have become overloaded. An example of that is in the manufacture of furniture or bedding or what is commonly termed the rag trade — the production of jeans and children's clothes. A person with a flair for business who sees a further avenue to expand a business by acquiring a premises and giving employment to 14 or 16 people who are on the dole queue must have the application processed in the light of, as the IDA would see it, the market potential for the particular product. In many cases because there is an overdevelopment or an overloading of that product grants are refused. What are we doing? We are protecting badly managed industries who are not producing top quality products. To keep those people in business we hold back the entrepreneur who may be able to do the job more efficiently. That has happened as the Minister knows in a town in our own county.

I do, but one could not change that.

What we are doing is providing for inefficiency. That is the kernel of many of our problems. The Joint Committee on Small Businesses advocated not the abolition of Bord Fáilte but to give Bord Fáilte more clout, to put it on a footing similar to the IDA. The Minister, the following day disagreed with our report. He stated that he would not abolish Bord Fáilte. Since then he has seen the wisdom of our decision, that bodies like Bord Fáilte should be given more clout. To do a job effectively such bodies must have more clout.

The Minister said there was no conflict within the Government with regard to the establishment of the NDC. I wonder if his views have changed from his original stance. The fact that £9.5 million is being provided in the 1986 Estimates leaves me feeling very sceptical with regard to the seriousness of the Government in establishing the National Development Corporation. It was conceived by the Labour Party and after three years is being proposed by the Government. It reminds me very much of the land tax there was so much fuss about, tax that was going to solve all the problems of local authorities. We were told it was going to solve the accountancy problems of the agricultural sector, which it never could do. We were told it was going to save the Government borrowing money and appease people who are over taxed and who are rightly complaining about being overtaxed, the PAYE sector. Now we discover that there will be no movement at all in that area in 1986. I will have more to say on this matter at a later stage but the Bill makes me feel very sceptical indeed.

I would be guilty of an understatement if I said I was extremely pleased with the fact that a Bill setting up the National Development Corporation was before the House. I am sorry for Senator Lynch if he feels that because the Labour Party were involved in the conception of this measure that there is something wrong with it. I resent the public condemnation of the National Development Corporation by his party.

The trade union movement who see in the corporation an opportunity to create jobs which are badly needed — the Senator's party continually advocate we should create jobs — here condemned Fianna Fáil's attitude. When we do something constructive to create jobs Fianna Fáil knock it simply because the Labour Party have been involved in it. The Minister in his final statement said he was a believer in the concept of a National Development Corporation and that he wrote the policy document for his party, I admire him for that.

It took him three years to say that.

The Minister also accepted that the Labour Party had a policy to establish a national development corporation many years before anybody else had. That policy——

It took it a long time to come here.

——was accepted by the Minister in this legislation. I am sorry for the Opposition if they do not agree with that process of democracy in Government. We are quite satisfied that this legislation setting up a corporation has nothing to do with the IDA, Fóir Teoranta or any other body. The Opposition have confused the corporation with those bodies because ideologically speaking they are unable to look at a development corporation which will stimulate investment from the public and private sectors and create jobs down the road. That is what this legislation is about and that is the subject we are discussing. The Opposition may discuss the fact that there is not sufficient money in this year's Estimate for the corporation or the fact that there should be any money for it. The fact that the budget includes a sum of £9.5 million for this year and that the legislation allows for the development of the corporation to a maximum of £300 million must be sufficient evidence of the Government's concern to try to create-jobs for people through an agency that is not just an agency giving grants. This is an investment agency.

On a point of order, I did not say that. Senator Ferris said I was confused. I am confused but only in relation to certain aspects of the Bill. I asked the Minister, with regard to other State bodies, to state where the demarcation line is.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

We might do better if we dealt with the Bill before us.

I am trying to deal with the Bill on the basis of the Minister's speech and on the comments from Fianna Fáil. This has to be put in its proper context. The difference as I see it — this has been cleared by the Minister — is that the development corporation is designed as an investment agency and is precluded by virtue of section 10 from making grants available to industries like the IDA does. In other words, the IDA is a grant-assisting agency and the corporation is an investment agency. The corporation's powers to give loans are recognised by the Minister and by the legislation. There are no demarcation lines between the IDA or anybody else. This investment agency is being set up to help create jobs. The Labour Party are proud to be associated with the fact that the corporation is being brought on stream. I am sorry if that is a political statement but that is a fact.

We support the Bill unequivocally. I am, like our members throughout the country and the trade union movement, delighted that adequate capital will be available for any new projects and investments and that £300 million of share capital will be allowed by legislation. The board of the corporation must be carefully chosen and consist of people with a wide range of skills and expertise. It must include people with a strong commitment to public enterprise. That is important. The people who will direct this agency from the date it is set up must have a commitment to it working, from the Minister and the Cabinet, to the managing director and the board of directors. Those people must have a strong commitment to public enterprise. Anything that assists, through venture capital, the stimulation of public enterprise with the assistance of private enterprise must be welcomed by everybody.

The practical brief to the corporation must be wider-ranging. It must be set up to establish and aid the development of strong and well-managed Irish companies. There should be no question of the corporation making money available to different companies to put existing companies with bad management out of business. I do not think anybody would welcome that kind of development. That is the way private enterprise has worked here and the way it will continue to work, but I do not think the corporation should involve itself in that process.

The corporation is not a grant-giving agency, which is the job of the IDA. I expect that over a time there will be adequate return from the investments of the corporation. It must certainly not be seen to be a rescue agency, because that is the function of Fóir Teoranta. The corporation should become involved in many sectors, in high technology and natural resources and in taking ideas from the private and the public sector and bringing them to fruition in well-managed projects.

Senator Lynch mentioned tourism and was under the impression that the Minister said assistance would not be available to tourism.

I did not say that.

If Senator Lynch is satisfied that the corporation can get involved in the development of tourism I will leave it at that. Obviously, from his comments now he accepts that it does. It is one of the major areas that the corporation could be involved in. It is one area where employment can be created. The recently announced grants to the tourist industry and the stimulus given in the budget will create employment in that sector. We should not apologise for that. The trouble with some of us is that we are a bit slow to put the facts down as they are. That is important.

The corporation will not be interested in theory or research for its own sake but in applying the results of the research of all our third level institutions into projects which provide ideal and lasting jobs. But, above all, a successful National Development Corporation, which I hope it will be, will give public sector enterprise a new lease of life. Existing semi-State companies should in many cases find it attractive and profitable to co-operate in projects with the National Development Corporation.

The principal objects set down in the Bill are that generally the corporation will invest only in enterprises which are profitable and efficient or capable of becoming profitable and efficient, and have reasonable prospects of profitability, development, expansion, growth and providing viable employment. There is nothing wrong with that. That is how we should advance. There are sufficient white elephants and lame ducks which tend to make demands on Government to be propped up but do not give productive employment or expand into the employment areas.

The corporation will have the general power to invest under section 10. It is vitally important that such a corporation must have that power to invest in projects or stimulate and initiate projects in their own right which could attract other people to invest. I share the Minister's view that too much money is lying dormant in secure investments here which could be withdrawn and used productively in industry stimulating entrepreneurs into going into business. Many incentives are available from the Government for the private sector. People could help by investing in industry rather than leaving money in secure gilt-edged investments.

It is a very important objective of the agency to establish enterprises, either on its own or in co-operation with semi-State or commercial bodies. Any potential links with enterprises in State companies are also catered for. Natural resources cannot be overemphasised, in particular agriculture, fishing and foresty. White Papers have been published on fishing and forestry and I am hoping that the NDC will be active in stimulating productive employment and productive enterprises in those sectors.

I am against the principle of the State disposing of any assets in which the State has invested a lot of money over the years, particularly forestry. Ministers and others have said there was nothing wrong with selling State assets if one got the right price. I am a believer in the concept that natural resources such as agriculture, fishing and forestry in which the State has invested a lot of money over the years should be retained by the State for the benefit of the people. I am putting that on the record of the House in the context of this Bill. We have invested millions of taxpayers' money in developing infrastructure like forestry. It would be a diminution of the State's involvement in that sector to disperse it to the private sector. There are various tax incentives and so on for the private sector and we should keep our forest for the people of Ireland. We should have a policy of actively planting them and developing them and we should use the agencies of the National Development Corporation to ensure that resource is developed.

I would like to refer to in section 10 and investing in companies whose functions include developing or entering into other long term contracts with producers and processors. It is vital in an agricultural country that we follow through with the policy of trying to develop and process every conceivable piece of agricultural production in this country and add as much value to it as possible so that it can achieve the best possible market and the best possible market price, not alone within the Community but throughout the world. I am glad that the Government have reinforced by legislation the powers of CBF in this area to ensure that we can have a dynamic role in the sale of our processed beef.

I would also like to refer to the establishment and maintenance of the investment fund to be known as the revolving investment fund for employment into which will be paid any moneys realised by the corporation during its lifetime and during its operations, whether on investments or dividends paid to the corporation. I understand that under section 31 any profits made by the corporation should be placed in this revolving fund. That is appropriate, because the corporation, if it is as active as we consider it should be, will at all times be looking for or stimulating projects which can be brought to fruition.

Section 13 refers to the general duty of the corporation to assist in the creation of the maximum amount of viable employment in the State. Its objectives will include the realisation of investments made by it as soon as it is financially and commercially prudent in such a manner as to enable the corporation to earn a reasonable return on any investment made by it and to ensure that funds are available to the revolving investment fund for employment. There were a number of objectives in section 10 originally which might dictate that investments be held for a very long time in particular cases. There is nothing wrong with that. In principle there is nothing which brings a time factor into the disposal of any of the corporation's projects. Naturally, there are some which will need the active involvement of the corporation while it is in existence or while projects stimulated by it are in existence. The corporation can from time to time fix limits on the type of investment and it may extend them. So, it is flexible enough, if it is seen to be effective. It fixes the maximum amount of investment without ministerial permission at about £1 million, and at about £2½ million without Government permission.

The Minister in his speech clarified the philosophy behind that: that it is important that smaller projects can actually be got off the ground and running without the bureaucracy or the dead hand of Government constraints on it to decide whether a particular project should be taken up or not. So, apart from the limitations in respect of those two particular sums of money, there is a certain level of elasticity within the parameters of control of the corporation in deciding how their investments should be made and where.

Naturally, from our experience we all know that occasionally investments which start off small can in fact be most effective and beneficial to the country in the long term compared with two or three major projects on which the whole future of the corporation could depend. In the area of venture capital there is always the risk that a project which might appear viable initially could run into trouble. That is part of the commercial world that we live in. If smaller projects are assisted in this way and if one out of five or six collapsed, the loss to the corporation would not be as great as if there was a major breakdown.

Section 21 provides for grants for administrative purposes for the first five years and the Minister has indicated the amount of money he is prepared to invest in the corporation under that heading. It is appropriate that the corporation should have its administration covered because the success of this corporation will largely depend on the person who is appointed in the key role as managing director. I have said that I will need commitment from that person and I hope that the kind of dynamic role he will play will ensure that the administrative allocations made will not in any way restrain him from following the road we feel he should follow to stimulate the creation of employment.

The NDC will not be a holding company for existing State companies. It will not take control of existing semi-State companies. There is no demarcation line there. The existing semi-State companies have their own job to do under legislation; they will continue to do it, and this corporation will not involve themselves with them or take control of them in any way. The reason for this is that major financial and operating problems in many of our existing State enterprises need to be solved, but they need to be solved in a way different from the philosophy behind this corporation.

It would not be correct or proper to saddle the NDC at the beginning of its life with a host of problem companies — and there are some problem companies in this country, even in the semi-State sector. I am a defender of that sector, but I am always seeking more efficiency at management and every other level in semi-State companies, because if one advocates a system one likes to see it performing well. Whenever there is concern about the commercial part of a semi-State body, there should always be a demarcation line in respect of the social content of the service they give and the support that Government are expected to give them. This is so in the case of CIE, who provide a social service to people who cannot afford a transport system for themselves but who are expected to achieve commercial viability in other areas.

The NDC should not be saddled with the problems of existing semi-State companies. It is better that the NDC should get cracking in the first instance with new projects and new job creation. There would be little point in handing over to the NDC unsettled policy problems of certain State agencies and it would be important that the NDC resources and staff are not diverted from their primary objective of development and job creation. The corporation can, however, manage to act as a holding company for any new State sponsored commercial enterprise. It would be desirable if it effected links with the existing State commercial enterprises. You can have links without interference, and I am sure there are certain semi-State agencies involved in our national resources that could benefit from the expertise that I hope will be available to the NDC.

The corporation does not have the power to borrow for capital purposes; it merely has a minor power to borrow for current expenditure. The Minister has outlined the theory behind that and I certainly have no problem in accepting that principle. The corporation must therefore depend on its share capital or equity from the Exchequer up to £300 million, as contained in the legislation; on the retained earnings from any projects or investments and from the sale of any assets or investments on which it might decide within this revolving investment fund for employment. One advantage of the borrowing restriction is that the corporation will not have to service any foreign borrowings or any debts. We know the problems that some companies have run into in situations like that.

This corporation will replace the National Enterprise Agency, which has been allocated over £2 million in this year's budget to ensure that the projects in which it is presently involved will not suddenly terminate. There will not be overlapping, but there certainly is a dynamic role for the corporation to play in areas in which, unfortunately, the National Enterprise Agency had not been able to get involved.

Fianna Fáil, who set up the National Enterprise Agency, had a commitment to it and they feel it is unnecessary to replace it with this corporation. I would hold the contrary view that, following the commitment given by them in Government in the 1979 understanding with the trade unions, they had to go down this road reluctantly. Now they are being confronted with a totally new piece of legislation which has the support not alone of the partners in Government but of the trade union movement as a whole. Both the Telesis and NESC reports recognise that a necessary condition which must be met by Irish companies breaking into export markets is the achievement of the minimum scale of operation. We should therefore concentrate greater efforts on developing a number of Irish firms with the scale, technological and marketing capabilities necessary to compete internationally in high productivity industry.

These are the experts in industry; they published two reports. This is exactly what they said — that they feel if the Government is to go down this road and get involved in international technology and so on that it can be done through the State and though the National Development Corporation. I am satisfied that in the Programme for Government, which accepted this whole concept, it was the correct decision to make. Certainly, it is the consensus view of the people who will be involved, such as the trade unions, so as to ensure that the employment given is of a considerable nature, that this decision will be justified by the results of the corporation when it is in operation. Public enterprises should be used to ensure the co-ordinated development of resource-based industry and the National Development Corporation should be given the role of establishing new public undertakings where suitable projects are identified in this area and of working with existing enterprises to expand and diversify their operations. The National Development Corporation must be adequately funded from the outset. These are the views of Telesis and the NESC. I contend that the facility to raise £300 million in share capital is an adequate response to the whole concept of this corporation.

We will be dealing with the details of the Bill on Committee Stage, but it is vital for us to accept the principle of it in this House. It is a principle that many of us have addressed ourselves to over a long period of time. I would like to congratulate the Minister on bringing the legislation before us. Admittedly, it took quite some time to get agreement on the format which it would take and the direction in which it would go. At the end of the day, because there are various inputs into it, the final result of the legislation is what all of us hoped it would be.

I look forward to the speedy passage of the legislation through this House. I certainly feel that the sooner it becomes law and the sooner this capital investment being made available by the Government can be taken up, the sooner jobs will start to flow. In this way we can together, as a country, address ourselves to the major problem of unemployment which has not been seriously addressed by anybody with any concern up to the concept of the NDC. It will be a major breakthrough in that area. I look forward to the Bill becoming law as quickly as possible.

In one sense I must welcome the appearance of this Bill in the hope, but by no means in the certainty, that it may finally remove much of the uncertainty that has surrounded the whole question of the way in which the State should support, encourage or be involved in the promotion of some new development activities. However, while I have that hope, I cannot have the certainty because it is difficult to see that there are any particular issues resolved by this proposed legislation other than the changing of a name and the changing of a few numbers. I hope to clarify what I mean by those remarks.

I may be forgiven if I begin by summarising a little of the history of this debate about the National Development Corporation or National Enterprise Agency or whatever. My first substantive involvement in considering this issue dates back ten years or more. As I recall, during the period of the mid-seventies, in the wake of the first oil shock, when not only Ireland but all western countries were starting to suffer from rising unemployment and a number of other side-effects, there was indeed much concern as to how best to tackle that problem. Among the suggestions that came forward from the Labour Party, supported by trade unionists and so on, was this suggestion of a National Development Corporation. While as a general idea it seemed the sort of thing that one ought to explore, it was very difficult to get any substance behind it. The idea might be there. The title was there from the start, National Development Corporation, but the actual substance or content — what it is this corporation was actually going to do — was vague at the time. It is still vague, even though the content has gone through quite a number of changes. At that stage, in so far as I can reasonably recall without going back and checking up everything that was said at the time, my recollection is that this development corporation was to become the holding company for all the State's shares in its existing State companies as well as becoming the launching pad for the creation of new ones. There was indeed the talk of some of those new areas perhaps lying in the development of our national resources. There were references to forestry and food processing and so forth.

I recall not only looking at it but taking part in some debate on it, and some public discussion with the then secretary of the Labour Party, Mr. Brendan Halligan. We exchanged views on it; and, while he did seek to clarify a number of issues, I remained profoundly sceptical about the ability of a body along the lines then suggested being able to make any worthwhile additional contribution. I had quite the opposite fear. I found it difficult to believe that it would be other than another layer of bureaucracy, because, take the State companies. They were charged with responsibility for carrying out specificed activities in whatever area, whether in food processing or transport or elsewhere, and either they were or were not capable of discharging those functions adequately. But to insert another layer between them and whatever responsibility they owed to the Oireachtas, and whatever directions they should obtain either from the Oireachtas or the Government of the day, did not seem desirable. I did not see how the insertion of another holding company with another board of management and directors and so forth was going to add to the performance. Quite the opposite — it almost certainly had to slow down the decision-making process.

That was the situation up to 1977 and the change of Government. In the process of preparing some policies for that period and taking up some of the questions about how best to promote employment-generating projects, one of the areas that I certainly thought was relevant and appropriate for support was the encouragement of small industry. That was never mentioned as one of the functions of the original National Development Corporation. The original NDC was to be big. It had to be dealing with hundreds of millions. I shall come back to that later. Even still, one of the few differences which I shall come to later, is that the numbers with the National Development Corporation have to be much bigger than the numbers associated with its immediate predecessor, the National Enterprise Agency.

Returning to 1977 and small business — yes, you thought, you need some mechanism for encouraging that. There is undoubtedly a genuine difficulty for people who have new ideas and new possibilities for expansion, difficulty in getting the type of financial support they need. They do need equity capital, venture capital or call it what you will, money where they will not have to pay large sums of fixed interest more or less from day one. Loan capital is not the most appropriate way of helping. The way that problem was tackled at the time was the initiation of what became labelled the enterprise development programme which was entrusted to the IDA at the time. They were given a very wide remit including very flexible guidelines as to the extent to which they could give venture capital support for small business. That programme was, indeed, launched and many hundreds — if not thousands by now — of projects were initiated in that way and got financial support. It was a first shot, if you like, at helping to reinforce or stimulate the promotion of small business.

We move on to the agency that preceded the NDC, the National Enterprise Agency. That arose in the context of discussions which went on during 1978 and 1979 and which led to the first national understanding, as it was termed. This was an attempt to get a sufficient degree of understanding and common commitment on the part of employers, trade unions and other interested groups — because, of course, there are other sections of the community who have important and valid interests in the actual shape of Government economic policy — so that we would not find genuine development efforts frustrated by the need, on occasion, for people to go through the process of partisan or sectional pleading even though they might not themselves be fully committed to it. It was in the context of those discussions for the national understanding that one of the issues which the trade unions side raised was, indeed, this very question of the need for a national development corporation.

Very many meetings took place and many hours were spent in trying to work through slowly and carefully what exactly a national development corporation could do that was not already being done; to what extent it would not simply either be repeating the work of an existing agency or that it would not be overlapping or that it would not simply be straightforward duplication. As a result of those very long and detailed discussions we arrived at the format which became known as the National Enterprise Agency. In other words, we could see that the gap which still existed or could exist was for what is most conveniently labelled venture capital for the sort of projects which may require reasonably substantial amounts of money and especially now if we are thinking along the lines that had been spoken of then and are even more important and obvious today, namely, high technology projects, where we know that knowledge changes very rapidly, where this year's invention becomes obsolete in four or five years time. If you are not moving very quickly and staying abreast of developments, you can be ahead of the pack today and at the back of the field tomorrow.

You could see there was some scope there in order to encourage, if you like, the hothouse approach to helping Irish enterprises to get off the ground and, indeed, having got off the ground to stay off it, because with a rapidly changing environment it would not be sufficient to simply have an initial success: you have to develop the capability to sustain it.

That was the basis for setting up the National Enterprise Agency. As the Minister says in his speech, it had no specific statutory remit. He is right, it had not. The last thing we wanted was to spend another couple of years working out slowly and carefully and tediously exactly who would do what and to what extent this animal would or would not trespass on the territory of other existing bodies. As an illustration of that point, I would be delighted if the Minister or anyone else could offer some other reason why this has taken so many years, because the National Development Corporation was part of the Labour Party programme for a number of years; it was part of the Joint Programme for Government and here we are in 1986 finally getting a Bill to give effect to something which was apparently agreed at least three and a half years ago between the parties and which, even at that stage, they already had the experience we had gained through not only the discussions but also the initial experience of the National Enterprise Agency. If, after more than ten years of Labour Party thinking and discussion on the matter, if after at least four years of some practical experience through the enterprise development programme of the IDA, through the national understanding discussions and through the initial work of the National Enterprise Agency, it still took three and a half years to produce what is before us today I have to say thank goodness we did not try to go for some sort of statutory basis for initiating the National Enterprise Agency or we might still be talking about that matter.

Perhaps on your side of the House——

No, I stand open to correction and I would be delighted to hear an adequate explanation for these aspects. Let me continue with my own interpretation. As I say then, launch a national enterprise agency with no statutory remit because if you want it to be dealing with venture situations, which by their nature have to be in many instances highly speculative, at the end of the day the best and only worthwhile thing you can do is pick your team, give them the general framework within which they are to operate, give them an indication of the financial resources on which they can draw and then let them get ahead with it.

The Minister again recognises in his speech today that not all of the projects invested in are going to be winners. Of course, there will be a percentage of failures. If everything is going to be a winner you can bet straight away that an extraordinarily cautious investment policy must have been exercising without any risk-taking because the person, group or agency who can be right 100 per cent of the time in risky situations is not known in history to the best of my knowledge. I welcome supporting comments of this kind.

Is the Senator suggesting that the expenditure of large amounts of public money is better done through privately registered companies rather than through a statutory company?

No, I am coming to the point that it is not necessarily——

If he is, it is a most irregular suggestion.

No, I am not suggesting that at all.

The Senator is implying it.

No, I said I would come to the question of numbers later.

Is it not a State-sponsored corporation?

It is an interesting point and I hope to deal with it before I conclude. We are with this National Enterprise Agency; we give it a remit to get on with some sort of venture capital support. It is a limited company; therefore, we do have some influence over its directors. Like any company, it must have articles of association and so forth. It can be given its capital in amounts as required. By definition, nobody knows in advance how many reasonably interesting proposals will arise in which they could take an investment. It was suggested that they should be given a rather small amount of several millions of pounds to start them off and in the light of their experience it could be seen whether they needed substantially more funds, presumably in part on the basis of the experience they would gain and on the results which their investment decisions would produce and perhaps in the light of that experience you could agree on some more permanent statutory form or some arrangement that would tie it in in statutory form. There is no reason why a limited company cannot be in that format in just the same way as there are limited companies in other formats in the State.

The point I am making is that in the long term it would be more regular to have a statutory form for the expenditure of large sums of public money.

It may be, if we get it. There are companies which expend large sums of money in the State or is the Minister suggesting that there are not?

In relation to a State agency, it would be preferable, in my opinion, to have a statutory basis for it which would allow free discussion on it in Parliament.

What is the difference between an agency and a company that has a series of subsidiaries, as many of the State companies have?

I am talking about a primary company such as the IDA, ICC or Fóir Teoranta. They should have their own Act.

What about CIE and Aer Lingus?

They have their own Acts.

Is an Act needed to simply define and does an Act in itself give sufficient control over all the activities of the subsidiary companies?

In my opinion, it allows for public discussion on the activities of the companies and makes it easier for it to be debated in the Houses of the Oireachtas.

A nice piece of Committee Stage?

Question Time.

I am interested because I have to say it is one of the points I do not recall hearing talked about at any great length. I speak subject to correction. I cannot pretend to have followed every debate everywhere.

It is a point of principle.

Take it up on Committee Stage if necessary. The more relevant thing to me was to find out where there was a need or an opportunity for some investment activity with State equity funding, to find a suitable vehicle for launching it and try to learn from the experience. This was the basis on which the enterprise agency was launched. Within a relatively short space of time, we have been caught up in various changes of Government and so on. It has taken three and a half years to produce a Bill to give effect to the changes.

Changes in leadership?

Possibly so. I do not see how that can affect the length of time it took the Coalition parties to produce their Bill.

Like a good house, it takes time to design and build.

What happened to all the prospective and venture capital opportunities that might have arisen in the three and a half years?

We had no objection nor did we put any obstacle in the way of NEA activities. We fully supported the NEA and said so annually.

If the NEA availed of every opportunity that was there, I come back to one of my points——

I think the Senator is entitled to make his point.

I want to be as open as possible on this matter. I spent a lot of time on it. I am genuinely interested in improving my own understanding of these matters. The Minister gave one reason why you had to have the National Development Corporation instead of the NEA, namely, that the NEA had no specific statutory remit. I do not see that as very important because in the light of experience if changes were necessary, he could have made them. They are not necessary on the basis of any experience so far. Since its inception, the NEA has not spent large sums of money. I am glad to have the Minister's assurance that at no stage was it held up through lack of funds from being able to participate in anything. Therefore, there cannot have been large flows of funds and so on.

Secondly, the National Enterprise Agency was formed with only nominal share capital and was required to draw down its capital funds under a grant-in-aid arrangement. This produced a degree of uncertainty and militated against the agency entering into long term financial investment commitments. On the other hand, this legislation is providing the NDC with an authorised share capital of £300 million. I would like to draw attention to the danger that arises if one says "The NEA was small and was only getting money in dribs and drabs. We must clarify that and provide for very large share capital". Are you now not opening the door to the danger that whenever you appoint your board, management and staff for this National Development Corporation, they will feel that they must quickly get into bigger numbers in order to show that there was a need to do something more than the NEA was doing?

If somebody could give me a concrete example of some major project or some large scale financial requirement which this corporation will undertake that could not have been undertaken in its absence, I would be the first to applaud it. I have been waiting for it for years. I do not see the case for giving it the entitlement to plenty of money and giving it the appropriate staffing presumably for this kind of agency.

Frankly, I am driven back to the view that a lot of the discussion about the National Development Corporation is very much political, in the best sense of the word "political", that different people have got themselves hooked on to different names and different perceptions of what their named "horse" ought to be capable of doing. One of the main changes proposed in this legislation is simply to change the name of the National Enterprise Agency to the National Development Corporation. In the process of changing the name, you have to find something else for it to do and I am still not clear about what it is going to do because now we come to other shifts that have taken place.

Would the Senator not accept that the businesses in the Bill before the House are substantially different from the articles and memoranda of the NEA?

Of course, I accept that some of them are.

Having followed a gestation period which is normal in relation to many companies, we are now moving on to a more formal and logical basis on which the Government can operate.

I just want to note the points. Some of the things proposed in the Bill are quite different from the earlier versions of the National Development Corporation because now the emphasis is on encouraging small rather than large businesses. I would like to know what was the experience of the IDA in things like the enterprise development programme? What if any, were the deficiencies in that that would be remedied by transferring that kind of activity to the National Development Corporation? If one is going to be dealing with small businesses and if one wants to make some sort of substantial impact on employment, using up substantial amounts of capital, surely there is going to be quite a significant amount of staffing time required if it is to function in this area? Are experienced staff to be transferred from the IDA, the ICC or perhaps from some other bodies or will fairly substantial staff numbers be recruited — from where, from the private sector? Again I would like to see the implications of that teased out because it seems that this shift of emphasis towards encouraging small business and so on does have implications for the kind of institution that emerges, the whole character of its activities. That is the sort of shift in composition or structure that I would be interested to see articulated in much greater detail.

Before I leave the reference to small business I want to make one other point. I am not by any means playing down the importance of small business. I am one of the people who supported the idea with things like the enterprise development programme in 1977. It features in things like the Telesis report and so on. The one point I want to stress is that many of the references to the importance of small business are derived from the experiences of countries like the United States. A more detailed analysis of the data for the United States shows that many of the large numbers of small firms which are registered and which are apparently successful in fact proved to be subsidiaries of very large multinational corporations. They are not genuine, individual small scale businesses. There is still quite a high failure rate among the go it alone guy who gets up and tries to start from scratch. People who are looking at the record of small businesses in the statistical sense and trying to guess or extrapolate the impact which they would have in an Irish environment would want to look at the data very carefully indeed and draw the relevant conclusions from them. That is the point I wanted to make there.

The other potential danger point that has to be looked at is that in certain parts of the references to this development corporation and even in the Minister's speech is that, on the one hand, the corporation will be required to invest in projects which are or more accurately can become profitable, that there is no question of getting into loss-making things and in other parts of the speech and the discussion the stress is on the importance of the corporation as an employment creating body. The two do not always go hand in hand. Very often, especially when the enterprise has been got off the ground, as we know with changing technology, the way in which many firms have to survive after a period of time is to take the painful choice to cut down on their staff numbers in order to remain commercially viable, to remain profitable. There is not an easy trade off, as it is called, between profitability and employment creation. It would be important at some stage to know what is the primary criterion. Does profitability come first and is it only on the basis of being able to pay your way that you sustain whatever employment can be accommodated with that? That is another area.

With some of the other points I would have no great difficulty although I know that they are already catered for under other heads, in other words, with existing bodies — things like joint ventures, equity participation and a mixture of loan capital. There are bodies like the ICC who can engage in such activities. Those are matters which we might perhaps take up in more detail at the later stages of the Bill.

I will conclude by saying that if the Bill succeeds in simply putting an end to the political football element of this matter and whether we eventually settle on a name, whether it is enterprise agency or development corporation does not trouble me greatly. What I am far more interested in seeing is how the State is indeed going to manage its involvement in this whole area of supporting new enterprise because that is really what we are talking about here. Whether it is done by this body being able to initiate some projects directly itself or whether it is going to be primarily dependent on responding to proposals which come to it from outside entrepreneurs, who simply lack the necessary venture capital, remains to be seen.

There are a number of other associated issues which of course will come up under other headings but I think I have perhaps taken enough of the House's time because I know there are many other people who wish to speak on this issue, which is important. We have suffered enough from misguided attempts in the past to try to tackle both the need for employment and the need to make the best use of whatever resources the country has. I would like to feel that we do not, through mistaken good intentions, lumber ourselves with yet another body which will be given conflicting requirements and, therefore, will end up, rather than solving our problem or contributing to the solution, adding yet another layer of financial or administrative inertia to a system that already has far too much of that in it.

It is a pleasure to speak on this Bill. My colleague across the floor, Senator O'Donoghue, gave a long, academic dissertation on many of the things that he would see as being negative aspects of the Bill. This Bill is an initiative and it is a kind of initiative that does not have the ordinary safeguards that are normally built in to what a Government set out to do. There are only so many things that can be regulated by law. This is the State getting involved directly in business or legislating to establish a company that is going to have to operate like a private company in the area of employment and in the area of industrialisation to create employment. Naturally there is a great risk in it. Naturally very often it is a leap in the dark but very often when you do leap in the dark you land in the right place. Very often of course you will land in the wrong place.

There is a saying that if do not know where you are going any road will take you there, so you should always be careful where you leap in the dark.

That would be a very poor principle for starting out in commercial life. The most successful businesses in the world started off because there was a risk taker. Somebody took the risk and succeeded. That is the very embodiment of what we hope is happening here today.

Naturally I welcome the Bill and I say that genuinely because for a long time I have seen this great gap in our industrial policy where there was State encouragement by way of the IDA by direct grant and so on but no State agency whereby the State could become involved by giving a direct investment fillip to industry which would create jobs. This investment gap, as I call it, has caused all kinds of problems for industry and that is because of our traditions. The result of it has been very sluggish growth leading to disappointing levels of employment in industry. Many industries which were given substantial aid through the IDA, have on their establishment and when they were in business for several years given a very disappointing level of employment.

This country was never in the mainstream of the industrial revolution in the nineteeth century and consequently we lack somewhat the entrepreneurial tradition. To have been part of that revolution gives the results attained in the United Kingdom although many of its industries come in for criticism because many of them did not get out of the nineteenth century too easily. It is certainly true of Germany and Japan. There is plenty of money floating around in Ireland but only a small amount of it winds up in job-creating industry. This is to be regretted.

Because of our risk-taking tradition, investors prefer the quick return market: they invest in gilts, insurance investments and no doubt a lot of money ends up on the quick money market abroad. There is a well-founded belief that there is well in excess of £1,000 million moving around at any one time in this country looking for the quick buck investment. It is a pity that some formula could not have been devised to divert some of this money into industry, into high technology industries, industries that have the potential to give us lots of jobs. This money could be diverted through the aegis of the NDC. This is something that should be examined.

The NDC should have some of its financing provided from the private money market. It would give the corporation a sharper awareness and a will to succeed and to avoid lame or dead ducks and to pick winners in terms of commercial success and the level of employment they would give.

I am pleased to see that the statute lays down that the NDC is to be a private limited company which is going to have to stand on its own feet. It will have to live within the rules of the commercial world and it will have the freedom to survive and to take the advantages and opportunities of that world. I had a fear, when the NDC was first mooted, that it would be established as some kind of statutory corporation with Civil Service procedures. That scenario was touched on by Senator O'Donoghue in his contribution to the debate. If this was the case it would develop into a semi-State monster or another one of these semi-State non-starters.

I am also delighted that the Minister has stated that the corporation will be particularly interested in becoming involved in industries where new processes and products are in good demand or where there is a good potential. Many small innovative industries with excellent potential for expansion have had their efforts stymied due to the fact that they had poor access to finance by means of bank loans with interest rate repayments that are usually far greater than the rate of return on the money invested. There is also the other problem of employers with small and medium-sized industries which have become stagnant despite a great potential. It is the problem of resistance of such people on taking on board equity investment to finance expansion because this means having to relinquish some of the say and some of the ownership to other investors and possibly to the proposed NDC. That resistance is there among our established businesses, businesses that have a great potential to expand but are stymied because of the attitude of their owners.

The Government have a very long educative process on their hands — and this is a note of warning to the NDC. Industries on both sides have a lot to learn. Part of the education on the entrepreneurial side of industry is to learn to have a greater sense of adventure. We have to engender into industry the kind of spirit which exists in the United States of America and Japan where proprietors of industry have a different attitude towards investment, particularly towards equity investment. There is also a different attitude on the part of the investor. The Irish investor, as I have already stated, is a conservative animal. He is inclined to go for the gilt edge where he knows he has a good return. As the Minister stated, he may buy a house because it is a physical piece of property though it may not appreciate. It is that kind of conservative mentality of people who have money to invest that has stymied the development of the country and it is one of the reasons why we have problems of unemployment today. The Minister rightly made the point that a major factor in the industrial dynamic and strength of the United States was the thriving venture capital market there and the attitude of the people involved in that market, whether they are the investors or the people who are receiving the equity.

Great pains have been taken in the Dáil and in this House to stress that this body is not a grant-giving or rescue agency. It is an investment vehicle that will be seeking a return on its investments. This is right and proper.

I would hope sincerely that the Bill is tight enough, against all future comers, to ensure that when the NDC is operating in practice it remains what it is intended to be. Others of a weaker will than the Minister may succeed him and it could be used as a political pawn. The statute should be tight enough to ensure that this never happens. The NDC is being set up to be, as far as possible, an independent State body promoting industry and investing for the good of the nation.

Sitting suspended at 5.30 p.m. and resumed at 6.30 p.m.

Prior to the adjournment I was making the point that the political temptation to use this new agency to help "sick men" in the semi-State sector would be resisted. There will be many who will recommend that the way to revitalise these loss-making companies in the semi-State sector would be by the involvement of the NDC, with its loans and its investment. Barring a root and branch reform of those bodies — a reform to root out waste, inefficiency and inertia — any involvement by NDC with them must not be contemplated until reforms of that kind are undertaken. The same principle must apply to the private sector industries who are willing to face up to their problems.

Central to all this operational strategy of picking the right projects and the right enterprises with the best return — especially in the area of employment — must be the people chosen to run the corporation. That is fundamental. The only consideration that can be entertained in the appointment of those people must be their competence and their commercial and business acumen and ability. I use those descriptions in their most precise meaning. Even if it means going abroad to get some of the very best people, I ask the Minister to do so. We should not have to abide by the public directives to determine their rate of pay. We expect a lot from these nine people so let us pay the price for the best performance.

The Minister mentioned in his speech that a chief executive would be appointed. I would give particular advice on the choosing of the right man. When I say "man" in this context I include all people, male and female. Somebody once asked what qualification do you need to become President of the United States of America, because of the complexity of the job and everything else it involves. The answer was, "You need the world's most rational man." I would say to the Minister that he should set his sights on that piece of advice for this post of chief executive. The Minister is looking for the world's most rational man, if he can find him. We expect a lot from this chief executive and his nine members. I take it that the chief executive will be one of the nine members.

One must particularly welcome that part of the Minister's statement where he mentions that the NEC will become involved in investment in our own indigenous industries, or in industries based on our natural resources such as forestry, fishing, agriculture, and tourism.

Our history in forestry development has been a disgrace. I suppose that can be explained by the fact that we have entrusted the forestry and timber industry to the stultifying and dead hand of direct State control. We have planted thousands of acres of unsuitable — indeed, almost unsaleable — trees. We have planted too little good commercial timber suitable for building and for finer things such as furniture and decoration. We have purchased too much of the wrong kind of land for afforestation. We have hundreds of acres of virgin bog, really only suitable for peat production — which has been planted over with larch and pines which have literally no commercial value.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

That is hardly relevant to the legislation before us, Senator. Perhaps you think it is, but we would differ.

I would submit that forestry is a national development and we are talking about the National Development Corporation. The point I am trying to make is that the National Development Corporation should have something to do in revitalising our forestry industry.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The reason I comment is because I find that, if one allows one Senator to follow a particular line, the following Senator does it and then one loses control. Perhaps the Senator could just comment and then continue.

I appreciate that. I will make a few brief comments on these industries because it is important that we describe them. There is reference to forestry in the Bill. It is one of the industries specifically mentioned. It talks about the commercial area. It specifies certain industries like agriculture, forestry, fisheries and tourism. In that context I will mention forestry. I will abide by your directive, a Leas-Chathaoirligh, but I feel I am entitled to describe what I see wrong with the forestry industry because that is the first point we have to clarify. I am recommending that the NDC should get involved in curing what is wrong with it. I was talking about "sick men" in the semi-State sector. There are a lot of "sick men" in direct State control.

We have commercial trees which are not properly farmed during their growing life. This leads to an inferior knotty type of timber which fetches a very poor price when it is felled. I cannot see a proper State marketing structure for our forestry products. We talk about improving marketing structures. I am one of the people who see nothing wrong with disposing of portions of our private forests to the private sector, or in the future to the NDC, for felling and for marketing. I see nothing wrong with that. In fact, I make it as a suggestion. I see the NDC getting involved in that area of forestry, because it has a tremendous future and is something we have not made a success of by promoting it by direct State control.

We all know that forest products are in short demand all over Europe and, indeed, all over the world. It is foreseen there will be a shortfall in the supply of timber well into the 21st century. Nevertheless, the timber industry in this country is in complete chaos. I would hope that the NDC would get involved in an attempt to revitalise the industry, because hopefully the NDC will be innovative and commercial. Those are the criteria laid down by the Minister — the criterion of innovation and the criterion of being commercially-minded. I see the NDC as a catalyst and a pioneer in that very important area of forestry and in organising the finished timber market. I do not see it taking over all of the forestry industry. One sees it initially as setting certain good example that other interests will follow.

The fishing industry is a vast unrealised resource. The most amazing fact is that, despite our maritime location, there is hardly a worthwhile enterprise in the whole country engaged in fish processing, canning and so on. We have inland townspeople who hardly know the taste of fresh fish, even though they might be less than 50 miles from a fishing port. A commercially-minded and innovative NDC might very profitably get involved in this area also.

Agriculture is another industry specifically mentioned in the Bill. Every schoolchild knows that we have an overdependence on the sales of what we call primary agriculture. Every schoolchild knows that the return on the sales of primary agricultural products like sides of beef, of pigmeat or of sheep meat and milk just processed into butter or into uninteresting cheeses is on an ever-losing return because of the market situation and because of problems with the Common Agricultural Policy. Every schoolchild knows that there can be no real increase in the foreseeable future in the national income for agriculture unless it comes in added-value and downstream processing. That is especially so in the area of new product lines.

I think Deputy Allen, speaking in the Dáil, made an interesting point that in the food processing industry alone in Germany the added-value was 64 per cent on the primary product; in Belgium it was 62 per cent; in the United Kingdom it was 65 per cent and in this country, where agriculture is absolutely pivotal, it is as low as 25 per cent. One can see a wide range of activities in which the NDC could be involved in that area because there is a major gap in the market to be filled up.

On a personal note, I was at a very large airport in Central America over Christmas. I was going through a duty-free shop. We all know that these duty-free shops at airports are showpieces for all kinds of products which are very often imported. I was amazed at the number of processed foods like meat and cheese on show there from Holland, Denmark and Switzerland — from everywhere but Ireland. They had Bailey's Cream on the drink counters but there were no finished or processed foods. They were attractively presented and seemed to be well processed. Indeed, I bought some of them. They tasted awful but were so attractively presented. That is another major area where we are losing out.

Tourism is — a lot of people do not realise this and, in fact, I had to read the recent report on tourism to realise it myself — our second largest industry. There are areas in tourism which need initiatives and development. I am talking about this because tourism gets specific mention in the Bill. If I am a little parochial I am sure I will be forgiven but what I am going to say is a microcosm of the shortcomings and inadequacies of the tourist industry nationally. I happen to live within easy distance of the Shannon waterway system, as half the country does, including yourself, a Leas-Chathaoirligh, because of its size. In the north of County Roscommon we have the Boyle River and the Lough Key system, which in turn flows into the River Shannon, and we have the Loughrea system on the eastern side of County Roscommon. It stretches all the way from Carrick-on-Shannon down to Shannonbridge. In this part of the country there are literally hundreds of miles of navigable waterway, a great part of the largest navigable waterway in Europe and all would remind you of Yeats' "Lake Isle of Inisfree."

On a more serious note, that area attracts thousands of tourists every season, and it could attract thousands more. Even with four or five times greater the number of people using that waterway it would not be overcrowded. There are all kinds of problems about its development. The whole system is very much underdeveloped because we have poor or non-existent roads which hinder access for fishing and for boat-tying facilities. Except in the more central areas boat-tying facilities are non-existent, or are certainly very inadequate. Serviced landing areas are very few, and where they do exist very often they, too, are inadequate. In that area of tourist development — I cannot go into all the details — one can see great potential for involvement for the NDC, with the innovation and sense of adventure which I hope it will have. I am sure in these areas, because the gap is so great, there is great scope for progress.

They cannot invest in infrastructure.

Yes, but a lot of this could be developed by private industry or by co-operatives.

In conclusion, I would like to make a few other comments on the need for this National Development Corporation. In these final remarks I will be dealing with the need for it to assist in removing inadequacies in the private sector industry in particular. In the private sector, especially in the older establishments, there are major problems. These problems threaten their continued existence because they retard their development in the areas of employment and otherwise.

We had a report recently from the Confederation of Irish Industry which shows that a quarter of Irish firms have a dangerously high dependency on bank borrowing. When we consider that bank borrowings are at least twice the rate of inflation we see the kind of damaging effect this can have and the degree of threat that that kind of thing can pose to the existence of a firm which may not be trading very profitably. The amount of private equity circulating in any year which gets into industry is very small. I gather that the total amount of investment — I think somebody made a point about it in the Dáil — small as it is, finishes up getting into only about 30 firms in the country in all. Of course, those firms would be at the top of the market. They would be firms that may not necessarily need an equity shareholding. Many good firms are crying out for financing by long term equity but they cannot attract it because of the narrowness of that market. Hopefully, the NDC will fill that gap. More importantly, it will by its hope for success create a venture capital market with a spirit of risk-taking and, indeed, a spirit of adventure, which is something which we lack. The Minister made that point himself.

Finally, I would ask that the NDC would take a special interest in depressed areas. I admit I come from one myself. There will be a temptation in the NDC and in the advice it gets from Government to stay near or upon the high ground for its investments and equity shareholding — at least in the beginning — where it has a better chance of success. Success will, of course, be very important at the very beginning, but let none of us forget the depressed or hard hit areas like Boyle in my own county, Castlerea, Castlebar, or any place you would like to mention. Those places have tremendous resources of natural manpower, agriculture and tourism. They have man-made resources such as thousands of square feet of factory space which are empty, and they have lots of idle equipment. I would suggest that the NDC would give these areas special attention. We do not want to hear arguments saying that we are too far away from the market place, or too small to succeed, or that we exist in improper conditions and have improper resources. They do not want to hear that we are not on the frontiers of technology or things like that. Those arguments, I would submit, must not be used to gainsay good arguments that the NDC should get involved in the depressed areas and in revitalising areas which have lost a lot of industry in the recession. The manpower resources and factory spaces are there. The will to get up and succeed again is also there.

In conclusion, I am delighted that we have at last seen this Bill in this House. I am a very enthusiastic supporter of it. I see that it has tremendous potential. I deplore that our opponents on the other side of the House have not seen fit to support it. I must comment on the paucity of their arguments from what I have heard here today and from what I have read in the Dáil Report. This is a bold initiative on the part of the Government to inject something into the private sector and even into the semi-State sector and into areas where we do not already have industrial activity. It is a bold attempt to get things going in a very fundamental and necessary way.

I am wondering if in these few days it is a little inappropriate to discuss this Bill. We are this week in a state of crisis so far as the finances of industry are concerned. The future for industry, having particular regard to the way the recent week has gone in the area of general finance for industry and the uncertainty that is present in the whole money market, is all too obvious. It is no harm at a time like this perhaps to mention this and to voice the concern of so many industrialists at this point in time and to hope that it will not continue. Obviously, if it did, it would be disastrous for all of us.

We are talking about a Bill that could and should be important in its own way. Indeed, I am not at all sure that the previous speaker was correct in saying that he should deplore our attitude. Our attitude in regard to this Bill is reasonable and fair having regard to the history and the origin of the Bill we are discussing. What we say, and are consistent in saying, is that this Bill, as we know, was a major plank in the Labour Party's manifesto when they came to Government three years ago. We know that they were enthusiastic for it; but we also know — it was common knowledge at the time and it seems to be common knowledge now, too — that the Fine Gael Party, their other partners, were not as enthusiastic as the Labour Party. We all hope that it will be the greatest Bill that has come before us in terms of industrial development, a Bill which will end our social and economic ills. If it is that, why has it taken so long to become a reality? It would seem to me that if it is going to be that good it should have been on our desks at least two years ago, if not before that. What can be said in regard to this problem is that the three years which have passed have been economically disastrous from an industrial viewpoint. Much of the confidence and much of the morale of the people in industry has been destroyed.

We all accept that the Bill before us — indeed, it was referred to by Senator Martin O'Donohue this evening — simply has a change of name. We all acknowledge that, if the National Enterprise Agency, which has operated so well here over the past few years, were given the opportunity and proper terms of reference, it would certainly be as important as the body proposed in the present Bill before us. The obvious question is: what will the National Development Corporation do that the National Enterprise Agency cannot do?

It seems to me that some people in Government never believed that the proposals had anything new or positive on offer that could not be achieved within the scope of the existing State agencies. They know in bringing forward this Bill that it will not make very much difference. Indeed, I think they hope that the magical figure of £300 million which is mentioned in the Bill will give some kind of psychological boost to our people. Unfortunately, many people feel that that is the kind of money that is being provided, but we all know that is not the case. It is, as we know from the Minister's speech and from the Bill, very much an investment agency situation in which people and entrepreneurs will be asked to contribute. Going back to the NEA versus the NDC, I doubt whether this corporation will be able to do anything that cannot be done by the National Enterprise Agency, or, indeed, by any other such agency. That is why I would be very much in favour of building on what has been long established and giving to the NEA the kind of "teeth" that they need in terms of the development potential.

I feel an opportunity has been lost in the Bill of providing a proper linkage with many young people who are now in the universities, the NIHEs and the colleges of technology in order to further explore and expand areas of research that might be possible in this field.

That is in section 10 (i) (j).

My apologies. It is right that in those situations every effort should be made in that area. It was the experience in Britain, where much research has come about as a result of a come-together, as it were. Obviously, that would be of benefit to all of us in this country.

We have our own Bord na Móna, Bord Iascaigh Mhara, Gaeltarra Éireann and a host of other agencies who are quite capable of doing what needs to be done provided a simple amendment were made to their terms of reference. That is something that should have been explored. Certainly, I would be somewhat sceptical of the Government's intention when I see the way in which the National Enterprise Agency have been treated since they took office. The agency issued a report in 1983-84. They pointed out the great difficulties under which they have been operating. They are very conscious of the fact that because of the sluggish condition of the economy here and throughout Europe it is a difficult climate for a development agency to operate in. Everyone knows that what is lacking is, perhaps, not the structures, not the agencies or not the skilled personnel but some direction from Government in many areas which would help to create a climate in which the necessary developments can take place. At the moment we all know that we have almost one million young people at school and many of them will need jobs over the next few years. I cannot see — and I hope that I am totally wrong — the NDC or any other agency meeting the challenge of unemployment unless and until the Government realise that they must take the initiatives that are essential for the kind of economic quotes that we are all hopeful for.

There are obvious areas which we can look at in the whole spectrum of our native industries. Senator Connor referred to the food processing area. He gave an indication of what he saw in reference to that when he was on a trip to another country. We are certainly lacking in this area despite the fact that we are very much an agricultural country. Recent experiences on the part of the Government have certainly led me to conclude that this Government are not at all serious about supporting native industries, our own fishing and our own forstry. The previous speaker said that what was happening in forestry was a scandal. Indeed, other industries remain hopelessly inactive and if the proper initiatives were there the opposite could be the case. It is wrong for speakers on the other side of the House to suggest that our failure to support this Bill is seen in some way as opposing the creation of employment.

That is not the case. We are, indeed, very concerned about the unemployment situation and we would dearly love for any group or agency — call it what you like — to create jobs but what we know and is clearly obvious and what we have been told in industrialists and others is that the kind of climate that is available and the sluggish condition of this economy and the attitude in ways of the Government have created this situation and have allowed for and created the huge unemployment figures we have at the moment. Therefore we have every right to say that because of this kind of climate it is very difficult for any agency, private company or individual, to become interested in developing or expanding operations here. As an investment agency it is vital to the whole operation of the NDC to elaborate further on that element of its establishment. The Minister said it will attract some risk capital and I agree that there is an over-reliance in industry on borrowing.

Indeed, in the first page of his speech the Minister makes the point that critics and observers of the economic scene in Ireland seem to be unanimous in their view that most businesses, new and old, small and large are starved of investment funds in the form of share capital. They have to rely to an unhealthy extent on borrowed capital. Further down that page he referred to the fact that there must be a shift away from the traditional reliance on bank borrowings as a means of financing start-ups and expansion and much greater emphasis must be placed on the need for equity-style investment. Again, I would have to agree.

One of the purposes of the Bill is to provide equity capital but if such equity capital is available and if it has been there, why is it not being invested? Why is it not being invested in a manner which the Minister and all of us would like as envisaged in this Bill?

If one examines Finance Bills over the years there have always been concessions for people who get involved in enterprises which would create employment but why are they not getting involved? It boils down to the fact that they cannot get a return on their money. If, for example, an entrepreneur has £½ million or £1 million to spare, can anybody here tell me of any industry that that person can invest in which will give him a reasonable return on his money?

I would love to share the Minister's optimism but what is happening is that people — and I know people who are doing it — are investing their money in the easy way out, insurance bonds, growth bonds, now, perhaps, savings certificates after last week, building societies, and also since last week as far as the banks are concerned, non-disclosers may well go into bank deposits. I would love to be able to agree with the Minister but certainly one of the last things that people in that type of situation would do is to invest in an Irish industry because the after-tax return is either not there or is far too low. Indeed, apart from the tax difficulties I mentioned, the pure hassle — for want of a better word — in getting involved in setting up an industry which might employ 50 or 100 people would also deter him. We all know the matters he would have to contend with, PRSI, VAT, industrial relations, unfair dismissals and so on. Indeed, in the planning area the various county councils are extremely co-operative when they know that jobs are about to be created. If a factory is looking for planning permission, they tend to go out of their way to help them and rightly so. But what happens if, say, a third party objects as, indeed, is happening near my own town of Athlone, in the town of Ballymahon where a factory is ready to move and there is one individual making an objection? That is the type of climate we are talking about, and I sincerely hope we can change that situation but that is how I see it at the moment.

These are some of the reasons why people will not invest in the enterprises which you, I and everybody in this Chamber would love them to invest in. The return is not there. We also have too much State involvement in that situation. Just before I came to the Seanad I picked up a copy of the CII newsletter and I read a little paragraph. Mr. Leo O'Donnell is the President of the CII. I quote:

I believe that concentration on rewarding initiative and risk taking and reducing the degree of State involvement in the economy offers the best prospect of overcoming our difficulties...

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Would the Senator please supply the reference?

It is CII Newsletter, Volume 44, No. 9, 7 January, 1986. Therefore, we come to the position I referred to, the hassle and the profit not being adequate. There is certainly too much State involvement. Industry is the last place the type of person I have mentioned would want to invest their money.

I know one man who was looking for planning permission in Athlone.

Ballymahon, good luck to him. I am delighted but, unfortunately, there are not enough of them.

The Senator stated he did not think there was anyone. I gave the Senator one example from his own speech.

There is one example. I will accept that but one swallow never made a summer. I am all in favour of creating the best possible climate for industry. I do not think that climate is there at the moment. We have to refer to State involvement. There is too much bureaucracy. The climate is not right for free enterprise. If we believe in free enterprise then we should allow it to get on its way and let it work. Too much State involvement in free enterprise is, perhaps, the worst of all worlds. In the Bill itself there seems to be a great deal of ministerial and Government influence and Government action on decisions is required. That to some extent proves my point. We should certainly give very careful consideration to the Bill. We are mindful of its history. We are mindful of its origin. These things frighten many of us away. The other side of the House are suggesting that the national corporation will be the fairy godmother in the whole area of jobs and industrial development generally. I hope it will be. The matter has been discussed and debated at various levels and various suggestions have been put forward as to how we should explore the possibility of the new development and the whole range of technology and of science. There are many agencies which could do this. An extension of them by an amendment of their terms of reference could do much of what is now suggested in the Bill.

There is certainly a need for the kind of development envisaged under the NDC. There is much evidence to back this up. Much of that evidence and much of that belief and concern which we all have could be met simply by organising some or many of the existing agencies already there. I am sure many Senators on the other side of the House in their hearts believe that this is so. We all see this body as a new layer of bureaucracy. I have doubts about its real success. The Minister said on the last page of his speech:

There is a saying in the venture capital business that venture capitalists do not invest in small business, they just invest in business which happens to be small at present.

Like the Minister, I hope, but I regret I am not at all as confident that the NDC will ultimately put that theory into practice.

First, I welcome the Bill. Indeed, it is a Bill that we have been anticipating for quite some time and it is a Bill which will, as the Minister says, lead to a job creation role rather than a job rescue role. I listened intently to what Senator Fallon had to say. A better argument for the Government he could not put up. He argued that there should be no opposition to this. I could not trace in his speech an argument for not backing this. He talked about ministerial involvement. The ministerial involvement would only be in the very large investments, whereas they would tend to push money into the smaller investments. That is what we are after. Small is beautiful. We have always said that. This country has thrived on small investments and small units. The way to the future is through small units. Therefore, the involvement of the Government would be that much less.

In his speech the Minister said he will not be empowered to issue any directive in regard to any investment in which the NDC are likely to become involved. So, therefore, what he is trying to do and what this Bill sets out to do is to steer away from the bureaucracy that we have been hounded with for so long and to establish a National Development Corporation which will stand on its own two feet, which will make money, which will reinvest that money and which will generate a climate for reinvestment of money. Therefore, in relation to what Senator Fallon said about the climate, the Government is there to create the climate and is doing this. The authorised share capital of this venture is £300 million. One could not have a bigger investment in any enterprise than that. That is equity capital. What we are talking about is a massive undertaking, a revolutionary idea. The Minister may have said that naturally much of it is his own brainchild. The heart of the Labour Party is in the National Development Corporation. We have faith in the National Development Corporation. It is central to our policy. It is central to what we believe, that the future of this country lies in small, indigenous enterprises to promote them and to foster them in every way possible.

I agree with the Minister when he talked about the encouragement particularly by semi-State bodies like Irish Steel to buy their own shares. That is a very good idea. The ordinary investor, each household, should direct savings into industry rather than in big buildings with absolute security. When people come to me asking for my advice, the first thing they ask relates to security. That is all they are interested in. They should identify more with the venture enterprises. This Bill incorporates a new dimension in Irish industry. It establishes a new environment that we should be looking forward to, not for the sake of trying to denounce it and for the sake of opposition to it. We should be encouraging it. The Opposition party will be much greater enhanced if they see the great benefits that it involves rather than to pick out the nitty gritty small details. I believe also — I think the Minister would agree as well — that the success of this enterprise is based totally on the management. It will be based on who the managing director will be, who will be the board chairman and who the board members are. I agree with the Minister about the political persuasion: you have got to pick the best men and you have to establish this as an identity unto itself and you have got to have a board which will work together, as the Minister said, for the betterment of this corporation. If you do not, it will be seen as another layer of bureaucracy.

I had the honour for part of my working life of working for a commission which the Minister's two advisers have worked with. I must say that better advisers and better work people I have never met. I compliment the Minister and his advisers on the document we have before us because it echoes exactly the sentiments I feel the National Development Corporation should have. It expresses foresight it should have. It echoes exactly the areas with which it should be identified. There are massive areas in tourism, fisheries, forestry and, particularly, the national drug company that I was always interested in. We could develop our own national drug company. The health board could be buying from our own national drug company instead of buying from overseas. The food processing industry has tremendous potential and the small co-operatives, too, because I think the days of the big business are gone. The days of the small business are here, days of people getting their redundancy money and putting it into business and working for themselves, as I have done. The two gentlemen there will understand my particular position and how I came to face it.

It is in the heart of the Irish character that when we go abroad we work very hard. We are adventurous and dedicated to the work we are at, but when we come home we seem to have this negative approach. I believe that the savings in every household should be dedicated — like in France — to business and putting them into small business, to get, as the Minister rightly said, the tax advantage of that. That is a very good incentive.

Why did the National Enterprise Agency fail? I think it got bogged down. I tried to look up the number of the agency in the telephone directory and could not find it there, so if it was not even in the directory at that stage how could it possibly be adventurous? Therefore, the National Development Corporation has to put a stamp of identity on itself. It has to be identified with winners from the first. There are many in every constituency. We have a small mushroom factory that is about to close now because it needs a bit of a push. There are 340 people employed there. We have massive areas there in the cutaway bogs. We have the Japanese Gardens, a massive attraction for tourists from all over the world. It is nearly the second largest attraction in the county, but it is not recognised as such. We have very important meat processing plants. Therefore, there are various areas.

I would ask that we would establish this National Development Corporation immediately and get it going immediately. Let us not tie it down. Let it get on with the job of identifying the various areas in which it should get involved. It should contact the IDA, the ICC, the Irish Goods Council and all the county councils around the country that have development teams identifying all the projects. There are many projects in all the areas I have just noted.

The National Development Corporation should not get involved in research and development but what it should do is take that costly research and development by other countries, take the franchise for products, establish that franchise and enter into negotiations with other countries to sell to the European market. In other words, small companies here could identify projects taken, possibly, from the Americans, produce them here and send them to the EC countries.

There is a mass of enterprise available. I think it is essential for this corporation, if it is to succeed, to have the right managing director, that he or she is properly paid, that the chairperson works in harmony and that the board is identified as a board not just there for the sake of being there but because they believe in a National Development Corporation, because, if they do not believe in it, it is gone. No matter how big or how small the enterprise is, if you have not got the right person at the top that enterprise fails.

Everyone of us knows exactly and can identify out there in the marketplace the companies that have gone to the wall in this country. Many of them have gone to the wall because they are not willing to break with tradition, because they were willing to decide that what was good enough for yesterday is good enough for today and tomorrow. That is no longer the case. The situation is that we are in a new market. We are in a new environment. We have new skills to be developed. New enterprise and technology have taken a lot of our manpower away. About ten years ago you had up to 300 or 400 people employed in the flour milling industry and now you have two people working high technology machines. I worked in a company not so long ago where we had 1,100 people producing a certain tonnage. Now that same company is down to 150 people producing more tonnage. Those are the challenges of technology, but they can be got over if we have the will to do it. We can only have the will if we have the spirit, and the spirit is there.

My belief is that there is a market out there and there is a market within the country. Take any product in any supermarket. There is no reason why that product should not be made at home. Take the food processing industry. The vegetables and all the items on the breakfast table could all be produced here at a cheaper rate if we put our minds down to it. What has happened is that we have lost our nerve. Why have we lost our nerve? Because of the state the country has been put into by itself, by an aura of depression, by one saying the country has gone and that is it. There is then no atmosphere for investment. We have got to break out of that. We have got to be courageous, far-seeing and, whether you are old or young, you have got to have a youthful mind.

The National Development Corporation is central to the Labour Party, central to job creation. It is not in itself the means by which all our ills will be blown away, but it is an area of which we can be proud and which we must back. I cannot understand how the Oireachtas, as a body, cannot endorse this totally. There is nothing in this that I can find fault with. There is nothing in what Senator Fallon had to say that I could find fault with. He was echoing a depression. If we keep echoing a depression we could talk ourselves into a depression and say there is no hope. Therefore, if there is no hope, what are we doing here? I believe there is hope. The National Development Corporation believes that there is hope. It is a revolutionary idea. It has to work and be made work and it will only work if you have the right people working it and if they believe that it will work. They will identify all the areas of operation.

We are still a very young country as far as technology is concerned. We can make this work. We can create the proper climate. This is not a grant-aiding body. As the Minister said, it is not there to give out grants; but there can be a mixture of equity and loans which is a very good and new idea. It will do away with bureaucracy and keep it small. It will make way for product replacement, and allow the corporation to get into all types of industry which we have mentioned and in particular tourism. There is tremendous limitation on our fisheries; in particular, the salmon factories are crying out for equity capital. This is a massive employment area. We have the cutaway bogs and the co-operatives. The Trabolgan experience has been one of pension funds coming into this country and it is very successful indeed.

I would like to conclude by congratulating the Minister on bringing this forward and his advisers for advising him so well. I would ask him to get it off the ground as quickly as possible. It is very important that the correct psychological climate be established in business. It is the same everywhere; if there is the mind of winning, then you will be backed. If you have the feeling of gloom and doom, there will be gloom and doom and no one will back you. Therefore, when this National Development Corporation gets off the ground, let it pick out winner companies in which it can get involved, companies which can produce profits. It should get involved in a few small ventures to show the Irish people how this National Development Corporation can work. I believe that, once they see it working and see the potential for it, the people will back it. Also, if they see tension in the boardroom, and one person ideologically opposed to this, or a change in Government and the new Government casting it aside confidence will be shaken. It has to be founded on solid ground. It has to identify the areas where it can do very well. I welcome the National Development Corporation. I welcome the speech by the Minister. I hope that the NDC will be a vehicle for the job creation that we have set out in our document.

I do not congratulate the Minister on the Bill, as Senator Conway did. I find no reason for doing so. I will say that I must congratulate the Minister for his presentation of the Bill. It is only right that we should give credit where it is due.

This Government have the ability to do it well if they have something to sell. Even if they have nothing to sell, they still can sell it. This Bill was presented superbly by the Minister, Deputy Bruton. Unlike Senator Connor, I do not share that enthusiasm. He did castigate this side of the House for not seeing the Bill in the same light as he did. It has been pointed out by many people who have no party political affiliations that there are big pitfalls. I would like to say to Senator Connor that there are none so blind as those who will not see.

On a point of order, the name is Conway.

The Senator is referring to Senator John Connor.

I want to say at the outset that I am no authority in this area and I do not pretend to be. I am not going to go out of my depth in dealing with the Bill. On this side of the House, in all areas, we welcome anything that will help the unemployment problem. It would be wrong not to. The reason we are so dubious is that we think it will not do anything for the unemployment problem. At present there are 250,000 people unemployed and the figure is still growing. Some 50,000 people perhaps have emigrated in the last year or two and that figure is growing. There may be 50,000 involved in the various schemes, numbering about 30, which the Government have initiated and which we welcome; but in the long run they do nothing for the unemployment problem. We have a serious problem here. It would be a very callous individual who would not grasp at anything that would help in any way to solve this problem.

This Bill, in my view, deals with employment and solving the unemployment problem. When all the dust settles about it and when we strip it down to its essentials we may say that it is a catalyst in the commercial area — a vehicle for investment and other things — but essentially it is trying to help with the employment problem. That is a very laudable object for this is an urgent matter. In this context it is worthwhile for a few minutes to actually deal with unemployment per se. Whether we regard it as a cure or work or, labour or whatever way we look as it, we should consider it per se.

I would like to refer to an article in Technology Ireland, the learned journal of the Institute for Industrial Research and Standards, May 1985, by Ann Sharpe, who is a psychologist and a writer. She has contributed an article on “The Psychology of the Dole”. This could equally well be called the psychology of work. The article deals with unemployment and the importance of research and says that:

... a dramatic and continuing crisis of change is happening everywhere throughout western society.... One salient feature of this change is that work is no longer the prime means of unifying the social norm. Work no longer holds society together cohesively. Alienation, as evidenced by anything from passive cynicism to outright anti-social acts, is widespread in the absence of any positive unifying norm.

This is an alarming, but correct statement and one with which I would agree. "The old-fashioned work ethic, commonly dubbed the Protestant Work Ethic, has more or less vanished," it is argued. It was the cornerstone of early industrial thinking:

... work is assumed to be an unquestionable good in its own right. Ideally, we all carry around a stern foreman in our heads.

One of the late results of this legacy is that a number of categories of people are assumed by others and, much worse, deeply assume themselves in this light to be failures. These are the retired, the ill, both mentally and physically and the unemployed.

The present state of research into the psychology of employment is incomplete and more research should be done in this area. "There is now the social and personal dilemma of a sizeable proportion of young, well-educated people for whom unemployment is a probable fact of life. And even as late as the 1980s a researcher could point to the lack of empirical evidence to test whether unemployment was easier or harder on the well educated." I think that is a most important statement and we should all regret that it is the situation, in other words, that we do not know whether the educated or the uneducated relate better to unemployment. "Have the expectations of the young been raised so high that they are decisively and permanently out of key with economic reality?" That is a fair criticism. "Right now one can only formulate hypotheses about the effect of unemployment on individuals. ...Frustration leads predictably enough to aggression of some kind, whether directed outwards as socially disruptive behaviour or inwards in the form of maladjustment"— which is a common problem in our community. "While one would expect outwardly directed aggression of the young, the point has been made in research of the 1930s that mass unemployment then led to resignation in personal lives and social matters, not to revolution." There are many people at present who feel that in our circumstances the inevitable end is revolution. I do not want to dwell too much on it but I want to point the finger at that possibility.

"...the category of the ‘unemployed' is emphasised rather than the fact that a widely disparate grouping of people from a range of situations are without jobs. These include the unskilled, the unlucky and the incompetent along with those with various degrees of skill and competence." The article goes on to deal with sponsored schemes such as the schemes which have been initiated by the Government. It states that at its most extreme "this process works overtime .... this process of providing temporary schemes which do not solve the unemployment problem but keep people involved for a certain time. At its most extreme this process works overtime preventing us from accepting that Government schemes will not solve the problem of the late twentieth century. Temporary schemes may even help prevent a further and better understanding and, in turn, appropriate action."

The final paragraph states: "Finally, it seems that the principle of lateral thinking as proposed by de Bono is most relevant: instead of digging the same old hole deeper and deeper, we may have to start digging a new series of holes elsewhere. There may be no alternative." What is happening here is that we are digging the same hole and if we are not digging the same hole we are digging the excavated material that has been thrown out of that hole. We are doing nothing new. There is no innovation. There is no new approach to employment. We are looking at it in the framework of Victorian times. of the early industrial revolution to which I referred earlier; we are looking at it in that concept and I think that is wrong. It is a major mistake of this Government that they did not look at the totality of employment and have a new approach to it without trying to solve the unemployment problem against that out-of-date and antiquated framework.

Reference has been made to the various documents which included details of the National Development Corporation. One of them was Building on Reality. The section which dealt with the National Development Corporation in Building on Reality is very small. It states on page 69, paragraph 3.69, that the emphasis would be on developing modern industry based on commerciality and profits and strengthening indigenous industry and enterprise. Of course that is important and profits are important but until recently profit was a very ugly word — it still is. At least it agrees in this paragraph that profits are most important and it goes on to tell us that funds will be advanced to the NDC as and when needed and, of course, this is most important also. In the section in Building on Reality there is no emphasis on employment. In one section it states that it will contribute significantly to economic expansion and employment growth and that is all without any further treatment of the subject.

In the Industrial White Paper the matter is treated a bit more comprehensively. It tells us that the Government are convinced that there is a key role for direct State involvement in industrial development but it does not go on to tell us why the Government are convinced. It seems a very bland statement. In the old days when we did propositions from Euclid we did not say we were convinced; we had to produce the proof. In this paper some proof should have been included to convince us that it would be worth while. The same document tells us also, regarding State equity investment, that the profits arising from these investments will accrue directly to the community. But what happens if there are no profits? What happens if there are all losses? What happens if there are mostly losses? The most interesting part of the document is on page 90, paragraph 3. It refers in what I would regard as typical Dickensian English, to the functions of the NDC and one of its functions it says is acting "as a state investment vehicle for commercial projects related to the accelerated development of an integrated strategy for the indigenous resources sector of the economy."

Quite candidly, I am not too sure what this means. When I say it was Dickensian English, like many people of my generation I took a particular interest in Dickens and I remember one of the sections in David Copperfield where Mr. Micawber wrote his famous letter which began something like this: "My Dear Sir, many years have elapsed since I had an opportunity of ocularly perusing the lineaments now familiar to the imagination of a considerable portion of the civilised world." That simply meant, in my view, and in the colloquialism of my locality, "it is a long time since I clapped eyes on you." At least I know that much. But what exactly this means I am not sure. It is wrong in a White Paper to have this type of jargon.

There was an old lady who lived close to me in my youth who had a public house and if there is an owner of a public house in Heaven it is this lady. She was a very proper proprietor but she had many quaint phrases and one of them was: "Plain words make the most ornamental sentences". I think that would apply very much to this case. I would urge that the English used in White Papers and similar documents be simple phrases which would be easily understood.

The White Paper says that the State investment role will be promoted by individuals with a proven flair and ability. This may be important but there may be many people who would have ability and flair and would not have had an opportunity of showing it. In making a categorical statement like this such people are automatically excluded. There are many people who have not got into the limelight due to lack of resources and facilities, but who essentially have the ability. In my view, in a situation like this, the sky is the limit, irrespective of whether somebody is well-educated in the formal way, irrespective of whether they have degrees. I am sure that graduates would have priority, as in most cases the intelligent people come to the surface, but, if you are looking for brains, an IQ test is the answer and I do not agree with that.

The Bill has been put forward as the cure for all ills like a "quack" who can cure everything. I do not accept that it is going to do this. It is like a phantom ship, a mirage. I do not doubt that the Government believe that it is substantial; that it will do what they envisage it will do. There is nobody as impossible as the compulsive liar who begins to believe his own lies. This is the sort of situation we are in. The Government are carried away by their own logic and rhetoric without convincing many other people.

With regard to public investment companies, the experience in other countries would not lead to optimism. The only other country where this type of investment has been successful is Sweden. It is the only exception, I believe. Now we have the Government using for the Bill a basis which was a failure in almost every other country. We have too many State agencies. This point was made by Senator O'Donoghue. We should be reducing them and making them more manageable instead of adding to bureaucracy. I know a lot about bureaucracy as I worked in the Office of Public Works and worked hard there as did all my colleagues. I can recall a file coming up and because it was difficult a note was written on it: "Bring forward in one week's time;""Bring forward in two week's time;""Bring forward in five years time" and strictly on time that file was wheeled in on a trolley and looked at again and put away. That is bureaucracy: we are adding to that backlog with nothing being done.

We are all in favour of anything that would increase employment. But is it possible in this context? I put this to the Minister: is he totally satisfied that it is possible in any context? What research has been done in this area? It is most important that anything that would be done, would be done on basic research. Jobs are only a means to an end. The whole tendency has been to reduce jobs, to get rid of people and to use machines; to use computers. In this way you get rid of problems. By and large, machines and computers do not give much trouble; when they do, it is easy to have them mended. The tendency has been to eliminate labour and to hire qualified experts to see what could be done to reduce labour in factories. This is the present problem.

Debate adjourned.
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